Xen Stone Cartel

[Darcaen]

There were some attempts in the past to keep the prices of xen stones sane, but the prices are still on the rise. I don't think there is one perfect fix to make everything better, but this idea might help.

I hope to seek support from guilds to establish guild rules to buy and sell xen stones at one agreed price.

The agreed price cannot be low. I think, by now, after so many people have bought and sold xen stones along the 1 mil to 1.3 mil (?) price range, it is unrealistic to expect sellers to sell at a lower price. Any sale at lower price range is open to exploitation. What I wish to accomplish here is stability. I want to prevent the prices of xen stones (and AP gears, as part of the vicious cycle) to soar as they are starting to do now.

This cartel will work to set trend for xen stones to become a currency next to Krons. There would be fluctuations, yes, but hopefully very little. Which is why it is of utmost importance for this cartel to gain the support of guilds. Only with the guild system could we organise the sort of agreement needed en masse.

In this discussion thread, I humbly seek the support from all guilds and invite constructive criticisms from everyone that might help refine the cartel, e.g., the actual number for the agreed price, the sort of rules involved, etc.

Thank you for all your help.

[Darcaen]

List of supporting guilds

Reserved for future use -- when the details are ironed out, etc. :)

Guilds are listed in alphabetical order.

[thrakx]

my guild declines your offer, and we also decline to buy xen stones. Actually is some of my guildies want to waste their money on expensive stuff who am I to tell them they cant? also whos to say that they wont just agree and then do it anyway?

[Darcaen]

my guild declines your offer, and we also decline to buy xen stones. Actually is some of my guildies want to waste their money on expensive stuff who am I to tell them they cant? also whos to say that they wont just agree and then do it anyway?
Of course, if your guildmates were to agree on something, then do something completely different, there is little you could do to enforce it. I would argue it is the similar case for most other guild rules anyone can think of, but anyway, it's okay. The power of the cartel does not rely on guild leaders to police these trivialities. You do not have to be omniscient to help. :)

I don't believe people actually go out and buy over-priced xen stones intentionally. They do it because experience is difficult to earn, and they feel the urge to go to harder maps. The high prices of xen stones push them to sell the AP loots at higher prices, which in turn fuel the price hike of xen stones. The fact that the game is starting to mature, and there are more mid- to high-level players now than before, also increases the demand for xen stones. I will not bore you by going on -- a quick survey around Essene would confirm this observation.

Now, providing that the agreed price does not introduce a significant loss for most players that have purchased or stocked up xen stones thus far (I believe this number to be around 1 mil to 1.3. mil -- we can discuss this further), then an agreement amongst numerous guilds of good reputation would have a good chance at establishing a reputed price for xen stones. It is very possible that xen stones remain as an highly valuable item, but not an exploited item by those who use xen stones for the main purpose to profiteer.

My in-game name is the same as my forum name, and I am always happy to receive a whisper. If anyone has questions, doubts, suggestions, or simply wants to say hello and check up on the progress of this cartel, feel free to talk to me. If I am in front of the keyboard, I will reply. I am just your average player trying to help. :D

[RikanKhaos]

Lets be realistic here for once...We has high lvls dont sell xens we use them. we buy them for the most part. Lower lvl players are the sellers they have no fault in the price increase we do. If on decides to buy a xen at 800k the other one comes along and put an extra 100k so they sell them the xen stone. Now to fix the problem there are more than one way to do it. First is the all mighty boycott which no one cared about. Another way is to buy good ap gear and stop buyin xens(like that would happen). As high lvls we can do something about the inflation of the price. Start caring about how much you want to waste on a xen it affects us all. Not all of us are rich and willin to spend massive amounts cuz ppl want to be egoist. We can control the prices how we do it, its up to us. Its a monopoly theres always ways to work around it.

[CyberPhoenixSlayer]

Lets be realistic here for once...We has high lvls dont sell xens we use them. we buy them for the most part. Lower lvl players are the sellers they have no fault in the price increase we do. If on decides to buy a xen at 800k the other one comes along and put an extra 100k so they sell them the xen stone. Now to fix the problem there are more than one way to do it. First is the all mighty boycott which no one cared about. Another way is to buy good ap gear and stop buyin xens(like that would happen). As high lvls we can do something about the inflation of the price. Start caring about how much you want to waste on a xen it affects us all. Not all of us are rich and willin to spend massive amounts cuz ppl want to be egoist. We can control the prices how we do it, its up to us. Its a monopoly theres always ways to work around it.

Nice post, kinda right about this.

will not post any character stats, i will do a sig soon

[OmegaTrooper]

You Got My Support Bro :3

[Barber]

You don't actually expect something like this to work do you...as long as people are buying them for such a high price then people will sell them for that price.

If people don't buy them that high, then the price will drop....there is nothing anyone can say or do to make people sell them cheaper than what people are buying them for...until people just finally say "***! I'm not paying that much!" There is nothing any cartel or group of people can do about it. It's just like someone putting 1 mill on a tracker...the baby just isn't gonna move at that price because it isn't worth it :p

There's only two things that will make the prices drop....the failure rate will have to go way down and the rate of drops will have to go way up...other than that happening you're just gonna have to pay the fair market value which is what people are willing to pay for them and if you cant get them cheap you have to pay more.

[monday0829]

Guys (and perhaps gals) you all are still making that Xen meditation wishes. Xen
stones had already became the Curse of the Xen Continent (we need Xen stones
to improve our stuffs, and Xen stones are too common for being sold cheap.)
I think most of us might not want them to exist anymore....

We had better (1) break the Curse, burn all Xens and use Krons to enhance instead
and since Krons are dropped more commonly; or (2) let Xens drop like Krons.

[Convent]

First, good intentions. And I like the tone and formality of your posts, it makes your point come across much stronger than "OMG NO MOOR XEN BUYZ PL0X!!!1".

Second, I agree in that it probably won't work. Rikan is right, guilds of reputation tend to be formed of higher level people who require more xens (and it's not even to survive on higher maps, there are cloaks for that, it's so that they can survive at ALL in the map they're actually getting not-even-okay exp in). They wouldn't be selling, they'd be buying, which is the demand problem of this whole thing.

I also agree with Barber, it's INCREDIBLY difficult, if not impossible, for even a large mass of all the guilds of SoS to force the prices down. The demand (all the high level people who are able to use 20+ xens to get their equips up +1) is too much higher than the supply (the few, lucky, less higher level people who don't need xens and can manage to sell them, which you hardly see around any of the towns).

At the rate the system is set up, people will keep demanding xens until the demand crushes the supply, leading to inability to effectively level without xens, which is counteracted by potions or cash equips (which are both limited), and they'll reach a point where they can't keep their character alive enough to level and they'll quit leveling, which will cause the system to do many unpredictable things based on whether or not the newbies coming in will supply enough cash to keep this game free or not (since the higher people most likely aren't buying as much). It just kinda goes downhill from there. This is what is thought of for trying to stop, right?

If higher level people were to stop selling the xens they aren't selling, or stop using xens they get, they'll be doing things like taking too much of damage a hit (example is as a knight) against monsters their level, costing either real money or kron, which is hard to come by without the ability to kill quickly enough to get gears to sell or uberequips to auction/sell. Most of the basic conception of the system of circulating kron would be changed without this supply of kron.

To go deeper, the economic system is set up like this:
Supply of kron--drops sold to the in-game merchant who generates kron into the system
Supply of desired item--drops, which could hold only a % of the overall drops (xens in this case being a very low %)

If xens did nothing, the supply would be only low enough to the point of the passing-by collector. Rarity would come into effect but xens drop enough to make the rarity not make the price go up.

Demand of kron--everyone will eventually need it to supplement their needs, be it training (even in just-in-case times), buying normal equips or skill books, everything, unless you're patient and dedicated enough to find all your equips and items and potions
Demand of xens--Everyone, at a level, would like to have better equips. If someone prefers taking 50 damage to 20 damage then I'd really like to meet them. The demand is effected greatly by the chance it will work or not, which is low, so the demand is high.

Sinks--There are a few sinks. Buying from the in-game stores is a sink, albeit a small one. Buying a guild is also a sink, a bit bigger in quantity but much smaller in frequency. The kron amount circulating in the system is really large, but because it's generally being held in someone's pocket most of the time, the actual amount of kron used is much smaller (still enough to give xens almost infinite amount of room to inflate).

When the supply of xens meets the demand of xens with the amount of kron being created from selling gears compared to the amount of kron being taken back into the system, the xens shoot up, tapping into the amount of kron being held (which in some cases is a lot). This is rather obvious, though I just had to say it. .__.;

In this system just explained, though, the sources are not swayable by the players. Although we could gather up a good amount of people to sell their xens at the price they used to be (300k was heavenly), the demand would eat it up, or a new demand will be created temporarily of exchangers who will buy the cheaper xens for the less and sell them for higher for profit (also said before).

Which brings me all back to agreeing with Barber and Rikan. Hope that wasn't too long and just stating the obvious. >.<; *wants to post this cuz it took some time to type despite his insecurities about it's ability to get his point across*

[Darcaen]

Trente, I am worried about what you described exactly. I like this game and hope to play for a long time. I don't want to see this game go downhill.

I am starting to understand better what Rikan and Barber meant, and the difficulty involved. Personally, I have always been too poor to buy xen stones. I don't seem to have the luck to pick up xen stones either. I expected the prices of 6AP gears and xen stones to go up when I first joined this game, so I slowly stocked up the gears I need up to level 10x (I am 7x at the moment). It must be even harder for the new comers now.

I completely agree (http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=747717&postcount=151) that the failure rate should decrease, and shall only be too glad to see it happen. I don't think we can afford to wait for it though. I don't know when Outspark will make this change, if at all. That's why I tossed out this idea and hope that we, the players, can help stabilise the market ... or help slow down the problem until Outspark recognises the issue to make fundamental adjustments.

I feel compelled to stress that something needs to be done, and we shouldn't let the invisible hand of free market do all the work. If we allowed the prices of xen stones (and AP gears) to soar as they please ... yes, they would probably stop soaring eventually, but when? And would it introduce hyperinflation in the process and make a lot of people suffer before prices stabilise again? Many factors are at work, so I don't know what will happen. But I think this cartel is a move in the right direction.

Several people have talked to me in game about the "buy and sell" comment in my original post, i.e., why not try to establish a reputed selling price only, but a reputed buying price as well? I gave it some thought when I wrote that; I'm still thinking about it, but I'm indecisive as to what might be best. The two big differences of this cartel to all previous efforts are: a.) the guild system did not exist before and b.) the cartel tries to stabilise the value of xen stones, not to push it down. The latter is crucial because people will not profit less or run at a loss to participate in this cartel. The cartel simply tries to keep things from going worse.

I don't know if this will work because it has never been done before. There were several other good attempts that tried to influence the prices of xen stones, but the guild system did not exist. This is the first attempt to forge links between guilds and xen stone prices at large scale. I think the guild system has a great potential to be influential and to bring messages to a large group of people.

I guess what I am aiming for is one hard pressed mentality for the price of xen stones -- so impressive that when people think of xen stones, they think of 1 mil Krons (just pulling out any number) right away. A stabilised market would benefit everyone -- both sellers and buyers, so it is worth a try. Many people already trade xen stones for AP gears, so I believe the work is achievable, despite the difficulty. :)

[Convent]

Ah, okay, now I understand you better. ^^;

I don't want to say it's a possibility, because despite how much I wish it was and how much I wish I could agree with you and join up, I've seen it been attempted so many times all over the place and...not work (>.<; ) that I've learned helplessness.

Ironically, I was just thinking, if we can determine that the end after a huge economic crash is good, we can use inflation to our advantage. It's a lot easier to cause a little artificial inflation and inflate the prices, just like it's a lot easier to burn down a forest, and if there's a very definate knowledge and high chance that the seeds left will grow into new trees a new forest could emerge.

[Artanis.]

I want the Xen prices back to the old days... and as what i hear what the xen stones
cost at Xenepic well... nvm that

Thats why as from now on im using white eggs in every town once in while and ill shout:
DONT BUY OVERPRICED XENS / THIS IS ~RAGE~ REMINDING JUST IN CASE YOU FORGOT

[monday0829]

I want the Xen prices back to the old days... and as what i hear what the xen stones cost at Xenepic well... nvm that

Thats why as from now on im using white eggs in every town once in while and ill shout:
DONT BUY OVERPRICED XENS / THIS IS ~RAGE~ REMINDING JUST IN CASE YOU FORGOT
Finally got my old posts ..... it is regarding game difference between
SotS and Xenepic.

It does not seems possible for Xen stones to get as low as in Xenepic;
Xens are cheaper in Xenepic not because of the uber rare gears
mentioned before by some one, but because of the faster (short-term)
gear upgrade. See my link below or you may / may not agree with it :

http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1022771&postcount=30

[OmegaTrooper]

xens use to be 350k when i started playing D:

[RikanKhaos]

Well said trente. I dont disagree that xens are rare and that they should be sold at a high price. But goodness overpriced is a different topic. 800k for a xen should be more than a fair price for that all mighty red rock. And barber I understand what you are sayin but again we are the payers of xen stones we can beat the insane prices if ppl would stop being so egoist and are willin to pay 1.5 mil per xen. Low lvl players have no use for xens 6ap gear for them and a love cloak is good enough for them cuz i have done it. Now beating the insane monopoly thats goin on will take us all to come to an agreement to pay only a certain price and to not go a kron above. Lower lvls have 2 choices. Either to sell or Hold on to them and at some point for the most part they will budge and sell at the price we demand(trust me it can work, but gettin everyone to agree lmao yeah right). Again we control the market of xen prices, we have made them inflate so dont blame a low lvl player for something we have caused they are doing business and like all they want to sale the item at the market price. Everyone moans about the price and expect the price to drop like if they were martin luther king makin a speech. Now have a backbone and do something about it. Makin action is the only way to make a future, words are meaninless if you cant back them up.

[Kairi13]

Nice post, kinda right about this.

will not post any character stats, i will do a sig soon

i agree rikan awesome comment to, and also had to add this lolz your siggy is hilarious lolz

[Artanis.]

I agree with Rikan and Omega i remember those times very well.
Times has changed sins then with Xen prices.

Ive bin reading the posts of holy who is playing Xenepic
he said that Xens arent that important there, Xens being sold for 40.000
Maybe its because they have the 3rd Kind of super weapon drop from bosses
which equals a Weapon Xenned out 7 times. I hope a Change like this or something
will drop the Xen stone price.

But we are the Community, we are the once that can do something about it.
First of i would say "NO MORE BUYING XENS OVER 1 MIL"
sooner or later they wont be sold for 1 mil and are forced to drop there prices
But the Community has to cooperate with an idea like this to make it drop
if not...well...

[RikanKhaos]

Lol thank you Kairi. Well i heard something about xenpic. Have to remember that xenpic is way ahead of us so of course they have found no use for xens with the advancement they have. But sos is still growing we dont even have pet fusion yet. So we still need to rely on xens to make our equipment better. Now lets stop spendin money like we are bill gates. We can beat the insane price and make it where we can all be happy. Rage lets hope that one day we can get equipment like they do in xenpic. Until then lets show who are the real ones that control the monopoly on xens. And stop buyin xens at 1.5!!!!!!

[Artanis.]

Thank you very much Rikan.

Today i was in Brynhilld and I saw a Knight standing next to me using a white egg shouting
im selling a xen pm me [without any prices]. After that i used my white egg and shouted
DONT BUY OVERPRICED XENS/THIS IS RAGE REMINDING JUST I CASE YOU FORGOT
After my shout he whispered me whispering: Shut up

I coudnt believe that there wer actually people who want the xen prices high for there
own greed. I had a long conversation about him telling him about what i read here on the
forums and what alot of people want. He totaly ignores it and rebels against it wanting
to sell his xen for 1.5 mil. Even wanting to report me to the GM's because my shouts
wer aimed against his idea of selling it for his own benifical cause.

I felt powerless to convince him. So i went to the Sparkcash Shop and got my Yellow
Eggs, and went on a Shouting spree hoping there wer atleast some people standing for
the idea of lower priced xens...and there wer...alot

So many people pm'd me about it that i coudnt respond to those who pm'd me telling me
that they support it. Even an Archer representing there guild says that ther whole guild
supports the idea.

I want to thank everyone who supports the lower priced Xens.
Thank you very much.
I wont stop shouting, I wont be Silenced until the xen prices are down.

This was ~Rage~ reminding you just in case you forgot

[Spadez717]

DAM!! it ppl quit buying the stupid xens for high prices
Xens r not worthed 1mill they fail!!!

[tankofinsanity]

In Xenepic there is a boss character that you can kill, and it drops a xen for sure

but outspark is waaaaaaaaaayyyy too cheap for that >____>

We should totally have a strike, like a consensus between a lot of players, and agree that we wont charge anymore sparkcash into our account if the xen price wont go down to a certain reasonable mark

like 800k

[DemKill9556]

why 800 why not 650? ahh the good days 650 600 for a xen :D

[RikanKhaos]

Tank in this game too many ppl are egoist and as you may see its has been an all day thing. Rage you are doing a great job I shall support you as much as i can. Now xens cant be 600k for the simple fact that you would make the game too easy and we will end up in a xen drought. And spadez when you reach aoe lvl you will understand why xens are so important in the game for us for the time being until the gms can find a way to fix the situation. I dont mind speding at most a mil for a xen. I do mind havin to cough up 1.5 mil to watch it go down the drain if it fails. I for the most part dont have a xen issue I have great individuals that help me and I am thankful to have them around. So lets hope we can do something at the overprice for I do also like to purchase the shiny red rock.

[justin_2006]

Lets be realistic here for once...We has high lvls dont sell xens we use them. we buy them for the most part. Lower lvl players are the sellers they have no fault in the price increase we do.

You don't actually expect something like this to work do you...as long as people are buying them for such a high price then people will sell them for that price.

THANK YOU!!

DAM!! it ppl quit buying the stupid xens for high prices
Xens r not worthed 1mill they fail!!!

and my thought on this is that duuuh they fail alot plus they are so rare... why is it so hard to believe that they would be sold at a high price??????

arrrrrrgh
lol
a fair price[like ive been seeing in alot of these replies] would be 800k[that is what ive always sold them for, with the exception of really good friends and guild members]

[Zeltar]

And the discussion on xen prices goes on....

in the last treck event Cretz was making comments about "Supply and demand" how more xens given from events will decrease the price. but in reality it is not "supply and demand" it is about "Return on investment". The simple thing is that kron is easy to come by (eaven easier with inflation), and the value of +2def is enourmous(in the later levels you only get an extra 4def when changing equipment sets). it may mean that someone can solo the next map (make another 100k per hour from better drops), or succeed in PvP or wherever else they want to fight.

I know higher lvl people that enhance to +6/6ap on everything.
it takes on statistical average 6 xens to enhance from +5 to +6 for 2 extra def:
http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=987466#post987466

That means that these people value the +2def to be worth more than 6mill. as long as it's a worthwhile return on investment people will do it.

if for example the xen drop rate increased, people will still want to maximise their defence, so instead of strugling to get +4/6ap, that will become easy, so they will be now using their income to pump their equipment to +6 instead of +4. the jump from +4 to +6 takes on averade 10 xens, thus eating up this extra supply, thus not resolving the issue, just raising the average standard of defence.

different people have different return on investment, in lower lvls the extra def is not so special, they are changing equipment more often, but in later levels people stay with their equipment for much longer, and an extra 4def is the same as gaining the next set of equipment 14lvls earlier. so becomes more worthwhile. People will continue to but to a price that is of decent return on investment, and as stated befor epeople will stop when the price is too high. naturally everyone has a maximum price, and the ones who value the defence more will pay more for the item, meaning that others may miss out.

i think this will all become a lot smoother when the NPC auction system(as mentioned in planned patch notes) is implemented, prices and nexgotiations won't be through wispers, but more of a liquid pricing scheem fluctuating according to the return on investment buy price.

[opensunflowers]

I didn't think GM's could do anything about xen prices.
as long as people keep being greedy, prices of xens will continue to rise.

[himoses]

Here's an idea.

I am not sure if this has already been tried, but why not offer to power level a noob in exchange for xens for x number of hours per xen. Ultimately, the noob selling a Xen wants to get to a higher level and buys elite gear and such using the proceeds from Xen sales. Barter is always a way around out of control prices. It would be nice if there was a GM who managed the economy of Xen so to speak like the US Federal Reserve. They could adjust Xen drop rates and alter fail rates to moderate prices and limit inflation to drive higher level players out of the game. Obviously, counting on the game designers is a failing option to change equipment defense values or frequency of new and better equipment.

[techno-viking]

Ive noticed that alot of the high priced xen sellers are just farm accounts, and it's always the same old 5-10 people selling them at an ever increasing price, which everyone else seems to follow.
currently the prices are at 1.6-1.7 mil and all the sellers have large amounts of xens for sale.
Now if i were a conspiricy theorist, i would say that certain high lvl players/guilds are purposely pushing up the price to keep other players off 'their maps' which i can kinda understand cause if too many people reach a high lvl then the high lvl maps will become way too over crowded and lvling times will increase dramaticlly, but at the sametime i don't think they have the right to take it out on the players, as they should be pushing outspark for more high lvl maps or somekind of alternative.

[TheCretz]

The Xen Stone pricing issue is now one of my top priorities. I'm currently looking into possible solutions and alternatives to helping make the enhancement process easier and less costly. In the meantime, Xen Stones will be awarded during events to help counter the pricing issue. Please bear with us as we are working diligently to provide you with the best game experience possible and I'm personally seeing to it that your suggestions are heard by us.

If you ever have any game suggestions or possible improvements that you would like heard, please feel free to send a private message to Solstice_Help and you should receive a reply from one of the GMs within 48 hours. We're always open to new ideas and in fact I encourage you to be as vocal as possible because we're here to give you guys a great game experience and you guys know best what you want and what you'd like to see in the future.

Please do not report any specific players who may be hording Xen Stones on the forums. If you would like to submit specific users for the GMs to investigate, please send a screenshot and a Private Message to Solstice_Help and we will look into it further. Public posting of harassment within the forums is against our Terms of Service.

[shp4656]

DAM!! it ppl quit buying the stupid xens for high prices
Xens r not worthed 1mill they fail!!!

Exactly, xens fail.. thats why xen price keeps rising. Because xen stones fails all the time, people need more and more xens. Basically, xen stone failure is increasing the demand.

[monday0829]

The Xen Stone pricing issue is now one of my top priorities. I'm currently looking into possible solutions and alternatives to helping make the enhancement process easier and less costly. In the meantime, Xen Stones will be awarded during events to help counter the pricing issue. Please bear with us as we are working diligently to provide you with the best game experience possible and I'm personally seeing to it that your suggestions are heard by us.
Thank for your update, Cretz.

Maybe I am again the only one, but I will not feel happy for making
weapon enhancement easier (it is fun, isn't it ?) Maybe it is better
making Xen stones truly luxury, by making the monsters in the level
66 maps or above have +60 attack stats; then people will not
offer high prices for Xens when pulling-mob AOEing, one of the main
factor of the Xen stone inflatino, is not a valid option.

[aznboy777]

i refuse to pay more than 1.4m for a xen.





until next week, which i will prob pay 1.5 or 1.6m.

[Artanis.]

Thnx Cretz, hearing word from a GM is really great ^^ knowing that they also
do care about the insane high xen pricing.

[RikanKhaos]

Hey Cretz thats awome and thank you. Btw thank you all that are doing such a great job on gettin the xens lowered the movement is workin so dont go gettin all down. Just keep up the great work. We can do and we can make it.

[ramman70]

The Xen Stone pricing issue is now one of my top priorities. I'm currently looking into possible solutions and alternatives to helping make the enhancement process easier and less costly. In the meantime, Xen Stones will be awarded during events to help counter the pricing issue. Please bear with us as we are working diligently to provide you with the best game experience possible and I'm personally seeing to it that your suggestions are heard by us.

If you ever have any game suggestions or possible improvements that you would like heard, please feel free to send a private message to Solstice_Help and you should receive a reply from one of the GMs within 48 hours. We're always open to new ideas and in fact I encourage you to be as vocal as possible because we're here to give you guys a great game experience and you guys know best what you want and what you'd like to see in the future.

Please do not report any specific players who may be hording Xen Stones on the forums. If you would like to submit specific users for the GMs to investigate, please send a screenshot and a Private Message to Solstice_Help and we will look into it further. Public posting of harassment within the forums is against our Terms of Service.

by hording do you mean just keeping them and not doing anything with them? or do you mean collecting them and selling them whether it be buying from others or finding them laying around?

[ramman70]

heyyyy i just got a idea, seeing how everyone on here is putting sooooo much effort into lowering the famous ->DIGITAL RED STONE<- price why don't we change the movement and start complaining to government and people worth complaining to...about the stranglehold on fossil fuels o.O...WE CAN HELP THE WORLD THEN X3!!!!...just giving everyone something to think on..

[ihuang]

The problem isnt xens prices being too high but too much money in the system being created. I want to know how much krons are being made a day. I make about 1/2million(selling my gears + books to npc) from aoeing an hour at rud. I think alot of people make more. times that by 24 hours a day, i think it is around 1billion krons a day. TOO MUCH MONEY == people are willing to buy at high prices.

Another thing is i feel we should not punish those who hoard xens. It is like those who have lots of money in life. Why dont we punish Bill Gates for having so much money??? They were good investors. Simple as that.

Every solution has its pros and cons so staff members and gms need to discuss whether or not the idea is good.

solutions i have heard
solutions 1
make fragments xens
pros: more xens introduced
cons: people are lazy to gather them thus will ultimately lead to increase in prices.

solution 2
npc sells xen
(this is a good idea)
pro: stablize the xen prices
con: money is being lost/ How much does a xen cost/ will this make xens worthless

solution 3
xen quest (once a week)
pros: free xens
con: xens will cost the same because of fail rate.

The biggest issue is that there are too much money being made from the aoers.

my solution that will benefit outspark a lot
make a xen luckyball for like 2800 sparkcash
prizes: mp pots/hp pots (the junk people get most of the times)
10 weak xen (success rate 1/4)
1 super xen (no fail rate)

[OmegaTrooper]

but how about the people who dont got spark cash ?

[Arkova]

umm yeah, I'm really on the side of non-sparcash users myself..

At the root of the issue, isnt it gears that are of concern and not xen stones?
In the past, there used to be events -pvp and others- that would add +1 or 6ap on top of the stats of a gear as a prize. In fact, they held several of these particular events every week.

I think that if there were an alternative (and fail safe LOL) method to introducing larger quatities of gear into the game, well, that could possibly be an effective solution?..

Also I can tell you that 99% of people with +7,8,9 gear did not use xens :P



(When I asked him in jot this weekend, Cretz did mention that such events were being worked on :))

[RikanKhaos]

The problem isnt xens prices being too high but too much money in the system being created. I want to know how much krons are being made a day. I make about 1/2million(selling my gears + books to npc) from aoeing an hour at rud. I think alot of people make more. times that by 24 hours a day, i think it is around 1billion krons a day. TOO MUCH MONEY == people are willing to buy at high prices.

Another thing is i feel we should not punish those who hoard xens. It is like those who have lots of money in life. Why dont we punish Bill Gates for having so much money??? They were good investors. Simple as that.

Every solution has its pros and cons so staff members and gms need to discuss whether or not the idea is good.

solutions i have heard
solutions 1
make fragments xens
pros: more xens introduced
cons: people are lazy to gather them thus will ultimately lead to increase in prices.

solution 2
npc sells xen
(this is a good idea)
pro: stablize the xen prices
con: money is being lost/ How much does a xen cost/ will this make xens worthless

solution 3
xen quest (once a week)
pros: free xens
con: xens will cost the same because of fail rate.

The biggest issue is that there are too much money being made from the aoers.

my solution that will benefit outspark a lot
make a xen luckyball for like 2800 sparkcash
prizes: mp pots/hp pots (the junk people get most of the times)
10 weak xen (success rate 1/4)
1 super xen (no fail rate)

Wth is that? Now I want to spend real money in hopes to get a xen. It's simple to fix the holy rock. All gms have to do is make a set rate on the darn forsaken item. Which would mean no one in sos can sell it at any higher rate. Xen quest once a week? Omg where are you gettin this? One xen a week wouldn't help a single person with the rate fail. Not only we have to pay a high rate for the darn thing but now we must collect pieces of the darn thing not that its hard enough to drop. And for the horder there should just be a time laps on how long u are able to keep the xen. That will cause it to circulate. If npc sold xens, what would be the point in playin the game? First of all we need xens to be rare so that person out there can prove he/she is the best of the best. The issue is not that theres too much money circulating the real issue is the greed in this game like u can have an atm and when you run out of real money you can use kron.

[ihuang]

but how about the people who dont got spark cash ?

Well you have to ask yourself- how much will a person actually pay for a +10/6ap gear.
100mill?200mill?1billion???
did you see the super auction for a +7/6ap 70mil. alot of money.

so maybe the creators can make an area for the purpose of collecting xens (make monster really strong)

drops include

weak xen (purple color) with a 1/4 success rate (there are more x's on the roulette) which drops more often then normal xens (like 10-20 times normal rate)

mid xen (blue color) with a 1/3 success rate which has a slightly worst drop rate (5-10 times normal rate).

regular xen = the drop rate now

super xen (golden) with a no fail - this will be the xen that is drop like once a day. (this is for the sol purpose of make a +10 gear. However they will go for like 20-100million (so that only rich people can afford it)

This is to keep the balance of xens.
i know people dont want to spend real money, but to get better things in life real money is needed. + it is to support those hard working people who created this game. No one work for free. People need to pay to feed their children and themselves + provide a roof over their head.
(i have spend 100 dollars to support them)

[ihuang]

Wth is that? Now I want to spend real money in hopes to get a xen. It's simple to fix the holy rock. All gms have to do is make a set rate on the darn forsaken item. Which would mean no one in sos can sell it at any higher rate. Xen quest once a week? Omg where are you gettin this? One xen a week wouldn't help a single person with the rate fail. Not only we have to pay a high rate for the darn thing but now we must collect pieces of the darn thing not that its hard enough to drop. And for the horder there should just be a time laps on how long u are able to keep the xen. That will cause it to circulate. If npc sold xens, what would be the point in playin the game? First of all we need xens to be rare so that person out there can prove he/she is the best of the best. The issue is not that theres too much money circulating the real issue is the greed in this game like u can have an atm and when you run out of real money you can use kron.

I agree with most of what you said. Especially "First of all we need xens to be rare so that person out there can prove he/she is the best of the best." That is the reason i have no problem with xens being too high. As for what i have heard, i put cons as what i think of the ideas (all going to fail/ only #2 will stop xen rising but ultimately destroy interest). And Yes, people are greedy, but people have lots of money then they will be willing to buy xens for over 1mil.

Also as for sparkcash items. People pay a lot for perm items that are useless. Halo ring is useless for aoeing (+50mp +18def). People will spend over a hundred dollar for something they only use from lvls 16-50. Pointless. How much do you think people will pay for a no fail xen? Why not have xens in those lucky balls.

[RikanKhaos]

I agree with most of what you said. Especially "First of all we need xens to be rare so that person out there can prove he/she is the best of the best." That is the reason i have no problem with xens being too high. As for what i have heard, i put cons as what i think of the ideas (all going to fail/ only #2 will stop xen rising but ultimately destroy interest). And Yes, people are greedy, but people have lots of money then they will be willing to buy xens for over 1mil.

Also as for sparkcash items. People pay a lot for perm items that are useless. Halo ring is useless for aoeing (+50mp +18def). People will spend over a hundred dollar for something they only use from lvls 16-50. Pointless. How much do you think people will pay for a no fail xen? Why not have xens in those lucky balls.

First off as you may notice I do spend massive money on this game. I for one are one of the un-lucky ones that cant even get a perm item so i don't bother with lucky balls. In game pots are good enough for me. Lol the oh mighty halo and angel wings go figure. I stick to my 30d items and all that have seen me know its my trend. But think before you talk. If gms were to make a lucky ball as you suggest...#1 they would make the drop rate even lower so we would be obligated to get lucky balls. #2 not all gamers can afford spending hundreds on lucky balls in hope to get a xen. And yes I agree that the xen should have a good value. But the way things are going they are making the xen stone over rated. And people that have too much money in this game are ruing the prices for people that don't. I for one the most I usually have is 500k so i can pot and aoe. They have to feel wealthy one way or the other. Maybe they throw house parties with all that kron(party like a rock star).

[RikanKhaos]

super xen (golden) with a no fail - this will be the xen that is drop like once a day. (this is for the sol purpose of make a +10 gear. However they will go for like 20-100million (so that only rich people can afford it)



This will only cause an un-balance to the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ihuang]

First off as you may notice I do spend massive money on this game. I for one are one of the un-lucky ones that cant even get a perm item so i don't bother with lucky balls. In game pots are good enough for me. Lol the oh mighty halo and angel wings go figure. I stick to my 30d items and all that have seen me know its my trend. But think before you talk. If gms were to make a lucky ball as you suggest...#1 they would make the drop rate even lower so we would be obligated to get lucky balls. #2 not all gamers can afford spending hundreds on lucky balls in hope to get a xen. And yes I agree that the xen should have a good value. But the way things are going they are making the xen stone over rated. And people that have too much money in this game are ruing the prices for people that don't. I for one the most I usually have is 500k so i can pot and aoe. They have to feel wealthy one way or the other. Maybe they throw house parties with all that kron(party like a rock star).

as you said "And people that have too much money in this game are ruing the prices for people that don't." How did they get that much money to begin with. TIME +/or LUCK. Money doesnt poof in the air. People had to spend 100-1000+ hours to become rich. When you spend that much time on this game you should be allow to control the market. Make someone farm for my fw. Luck. It is like winning the lottery, some people are just luckier then others, deal with it. Im not that rich, but have spend over 600 hours on this game (done 3 pet quests).

As for the sparkcash- money make the world go round. I wonder how much gm get paid to do this. They only get paid through sparkcash. + server cost money. If no one buys sparkcash they cannot kept this game going. Therefore dont you think they will help those who are willing to pay for it by giving them benefits. I pay so i have the upper edge in this so call "becoming #1". It is only fair. If you dont have money you just need lots and lots of luck. Still possible, but harder.

Just to let you know i have never xen once in my life besides for the pet quest. If i can do it people can do it. It is because people are LAZY. If you dont have krons, sit and regenerate you hp/mp. I did or over 50 hours when i was a newbie. Also read people, while you are sitting(while regenerating hp/mp) you can understand the game better. I dont like it when people ask "how do you get ssf for the pet quest". Thats in the guide if you look further.
Also i didnt see the point in a 6ap gear until i reach lvl 55. So i guess people are lazy. They want things quick and cheap(in price) + best in quality/quantity. The world doesnt revolve around you.

[ihuang]

This will only cause an un-balance to the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ya i dont really like this idea. Maybe during special event gms can give the winner the golden xen. But i feel that +10 gear should be doable (not like spend thousands of xens to make one).

[RikanKhaos]

ya i dont really like this idea. Maybe during special event gms can give the winner the golden xen. But i feel that +10 gear should be doable (not like spend thousands of xens to make one).

you seriously dont think do you?

[Arkova]

People get so fired up about this stuff ._."

[RikanKhaos]

Fired up about what?

[Darcaen]

Firstly, a big thanks to the guild leaders that have talked to me in-game and showed support. There were only a few, but I think it's a good start and a right start! Thank you.

Ironically, I was just thinking, if we can determine that the end after a huge economic crash is good, we can use inflation to our advantage. It's a lot easier to cause a little artificial inflation and inflate the prices, just like it's a lot easier to burn down a forest, and if there's a very definate knowledge and high chance that the seeds left will grow into new trees a new forest could emerge.
Trente, the analogy is interesting. I am assuming you are proposing to hike up the price to some insane but foreseeable number, such that even those who pay high prices for xen stones would find it ridiculous, so as to bring sanity back to xen stones prices?

Thats why as from now on im using white eggs in every town once in while and ill shout:
DONT BUY OVERPRICED XENS / THIS IS ~RAGE~ REMINDING JUST IN CASE YOU FORGOT
~Rage~, what you (and Rikan, and many others) are doing is great. I believe over the past few days the message that xen stones should not be over a million is impressive, and there are signs of prices starting to stabilise. I also saw Sora* and another player (forgot the name) selling xen stones at the old price, which was very noble!

if for example the xen drop rate increased, people will still want to maximise their defence, so instead of strugling to get +4/6ap, that will become easy, so they will be now using their income to pump their equipment to +6 instead of +4. the jump from +4 to +6 takes on averade 10 xens, thus eating up this extra supply, thus not resolving the issue, just raising the average standard of defence.
This paragraph is quite accurate in suggesting that any tweak with the drop rate and/or the success rate must be considered carefully. IMHO, preferably in small amounts over a definite period of time.

However, the opposite of what you wrote is also true, i.e., even when the drop rate remains as it is now, most mid- to high-level players still try to maximise their defence. I don't see how the desire of going +6s or +7s is in any way dependent of the drop rate, providing that xen stones remain rare, which means the alteration can only be small.

We cannot carry an economics discussion without the fundamental concept of supply and demand. You were right in introducing the concept of return of investment -- but supply and demand is still in concern. Changing supply (drop rate) and/or demand (success rate) might not stop people from going +6s or +7s, but it will affect the economy of xen stones more effectively and at larger scale than the current route, i.e., via events, which only award a small portion of the players of a few specific timezones.

This game is still growing, and a lot of people are becoming mid- to high-levels than, say, two months ago. The demand for xen stones is bound to increase. And precisely for this reason, the observation for this soar in demand, and the market prices reflected herein, should not be used to discount the effects of tweaking supply and demand for xen stones. In plain English: things will go a lot worse if Outspark doesn't do something and continue to rely on events and the free market; and if the consensus is to keep xen stones rare, much unlike the situation in Xenepic, then the only thing to tweak is demand, i.e., the success rate.

Ive noticed that alot of the high priced xen sellers are just farm accounts, and it's always the same old 5-10 people selling them at an ever increasing price, which everyone else seems to follow.
currently the prices are at 1.6-1.7 mil and all the sellers have large amounts of xens for sale.
Now if i were a conspiricy theorist, i would say that certain high lvl players/guilds are purposely pushing up the price to keep other players off 'their maps' which i can kinda understand cause if too many people reach a high lvl then the high lvl maps will become way too over crowded and lvling times will increase dramaticlly, but at the sametime i don't think they have the right to take it out on the players, as they should be pushing outspark for more high lvl maps or somekind of alternative.
One of the most difficult thing on the Internet is accountability. You don't really know who is behind what. The "5-10 people" you mentioned could all be the same person. ;)

And, yes, I agree with your observation. I believe there are people strategically working the markets. More the reason why the players must do something in an organised fashion en masse.

The Xen Stone pricing issue is now one of my top priorities. I'm currently looking into possible solutions and alternatives to helping make the enhancement process easier and less costly. In the meantime, Xen Stones will be awarded during events to help counter the pricing issue. Please bear with us as we are working diligently to provide you with the best game experience possible and I'm personally seeing to it that your suggestions are heard by us.
It is always reassuring to hear from GMs. We really need more posts like this so we know we are not just talking amongst ourselves. Thank you. :)

The problem isnt xens prices being too high but too much money in the system being created. I want to know how much krons are being made a day. I make about 1/2million(selling my gears + books to npc) from aoeing an hour at rud. I think alot of people make more. times that by 24 hours a day, i think it is around 1billion krons a day. TOO MUCH MONEY == people are willing to buy at high prices.
If you are AOEing around Rudwork Path, then you are probably around my level. But I am poor, and I don't see how I might become rich soon.

It is more the imbalance of classes than the amount of Krons circulated, and more the demand for xen stones than the imbalance of classes -- IMHO.

solutions 1
make fragments xens
pros: more xens introduced
cons: people are lazy to gather them thus will ultimately lead to increase in prices.
A more complex system makes it harder to profiteer. Same goes for the other idea you have about xen stones of different success rates. These ideas are not bad.

solution 2
npc sells xen
(this is a good idea)
pro: stablize the xen prices
con: money is being lost/ How much does a xen cost/ will this make xens worthless
FWIW, I mentioned (http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1058291&postcount=43) in another thread that I think this is a bad idea.

solution 3
xen quest (once a week)
pros: free xens
con: xens will cost the same because of fail rate.
If we are playing with supply and demand, then changes in supply and demand will alter market price.

my solution that will benefit outspark a lot
make a xen luckyball for like 2800 sparkcash
prizes: mp pots/hp pots (the junk people get most of the times)
10 weak xen (success rate 1/4)
1 super xen (no fail rate)
I would personally hate this game, hate the people who made the suggestion, hate the people who implemented the suggestion, hate the people buying these lucky balls, and hate all the poyos that ever existed, if we could buy xen stones with real money. :p

On a more serious level: I don't think it will benefit Outspark at all to sell out the one biggest hype in the game. Puns intended. It is a very bad business strategy.

Wth is that? Now I want to spend real money in hopes to get a xen. It's simple to fix the holy rock. All gms have to do is make a set rate on the darn forsaken item. Which would mean no one in sos can sell it at any higher rate.
I support this idea. This is a great idea, Rikan. Just brainstorming, but maybe a message that says, "Lord Tramis has banned all sales of xen stones above 1 mil!" Then perhaps some GM-hosted black-market event at Lost Byrnhilld, once a week or something, to spice things up a little. There are many potentials with this idea.

[ihuang]

I support this idea. This is a great idea, Rikan. Just brainstorming, but maybe a message that says, "Lord Tramis has banned all sales of xen stones above 1 mil!" Then perhaps some GM-hosted black-market event at Lost Byrnhilld, once a week or something, to spice things up a little. There are many potentials with this idea.

Yes in ideal this idea will work, however people get smarter. What im saying is that there are a couple aoers out there that more money then you or I. Lets say a person make 20mil a day from because they are lvl 11x. With 20mil, you will think that 1.4mil xen is reasonable.

Xen increasing in price helps circulate money through newbies. A newbie finds a xen and sells it at like 1.3mil. The newbie now has 1.3mil more. If we lower xen prices to 1mil, then mostly only the rich will buy all of it. Thus creating an inbalance. This will lead to "BAN OF XEN TO BE SOLD". Like i said, there is too much money being generated.

If people have too much money, they control the market. It help both rich and poor. Only the mid-class like you and me are effected. Just like in real life, there are very rich people, poor people, and average people. Not every average income person goes to becoming very rich. So not everyone in this game will get to that lvl. I think many players are in middle or high school. They dont see the difficulties in real life. If this were to happen in real life there will be so many riots against the markets like McDonalds. Why arent there hamburgers 20cents on Tuesdays like they were 10 years ago. Why is it 89cent now. The thing is that our game creates too much money causing inflation to happen in 5 months rather than 10 years.

You seem to be a nice guy that will sell it for 1mil or less. I too have given 3 free xens in my life (back when xens were 800k). However, it takes one bad rich egg to ruin it. So im saying to not sell your xens to reduce the price (aint going to happen). It is not illegal to sell xens at a high price, just like it is not illegal for people to make like 20mil a day from aoeing. Im just saying that there are too many rich people who need xens.

If xens are banned i think we will see that the rich will have fun controlling butter, ssf, and more stuff. I have seen a dramatic increase in those prices.

Just to let you know. People have more then one account, where they can transfer their stuff. They can form a nice account and an evil one. One can say to stop xen prices by selling one for 800k. However, have the other sell 10 for 1.4mil each. Just throwing this in.

I personal dont see why xens are so valuable (maybe because i have never xened in my life, beside the pet). A +1 vs a +5 is not a huge difference if you know how to play the game. First see which monster is arggo before fighting them. I have died over 20 time in chant from lvls 63-80. That is alot exp loss. However i dont think this is unfair, that just like 5-10 hours of my life gone maybe more did not keep track. Live and Learn.

[gouten]

The problem with xen prices is that the higher it goes up the less xens a person can own and those who want more xens try to fight the increase in price, and that in its own right greed.We should be smart and mature enough to solve this on are own.Don't really on the game masters to fix this.Come up with affordable and fair price that we can all live on.Its really simple we all just need to work together and nip this problem at its source, and the source of the problem is that we all us. If the majority of players agree to a certain fixed price the rest will be forced to join, so i suggest we work together instead of dividing into groups. I know we all want the same thing, and that is more xens to enhance our gear so why not come up with a solution we can all agree on. A solution that everyone can be happy with because so far whats going on isn't helpful to anyone

[RikanKhaos]

The problem with xen prices is that the higher it goes up the less xens a person can own and those who want more xens try to fight the increase in price, and that in its own right greed.We should be smart and mature enough to solve this on are own.Don't really on the game masters to fix this.Come up with affordable and fair price that we can all live on.Its really simple we all just need to work together and nip this problem at its source, and the source of the problem is that we all us. If the majority of players agree to a certain fixed price the rest will be forced to join, so i suggest we work together instead of dividing into groups. I know we all want the same thing, and that is more xens to enhance our gear so why not come up with a solution we can all agree on. A solution that everyone can be happy with because so far whats going on isn't helpful to anyone

This is basically what we are trying to do if you have not noticed. But it is also great to know that the gms are concerned about our issues as well. Now for ihuang I have basically stopped reading the post he make(may God have mercy on him and to where he gets his ideas). Darcaen TY you have made very good valid points. The hole greed part, yes we must have some sort of greed to be able to be the best. Now if we can all unite in order to deal with this issue we can make it happen. A lot of gamers are supporting the concern that we all have in the un-stable price that xens have always have. So to all that are supporting the issue and concern TY. And if you take quite the look around gouten we are doing something about it and not trying to involve the gms. And once again to everyone it is working and we are makin our point come across that we shall not pay an overprice for a xen. So gamers like ~Rage~ and others TY, don't loose hope our hard work is paying off and we will soon see the vendors being forced to put their xens at the price we have chosen and everyone can agree thats a fair price.

[fjskl2442]

This game is still growing, and a lot of people are becoming mid- to high-levels than, say, two months ago. The demand for xen stones is bound to increase. And precisely for this reason, the observation for this soar in demand, and the market prices reflected herein, should not be used to discount the effects of tweaking supply and demand for xen stones. In plain English: things will go a lot worse if Outspark doesn't do something and continue to rely on events and the free market; and if the consensus is to keep xen stones rare, much unlike the situation in Xenepic, then the only thing to tweak is demand, i.e., the success rate.


Demand is not the main problem. It is the monetary inflation that is causing 'nominal prices' to continually increase.

Think of it this way: compare your average kron intake per hour at the time xen stones were $300k to your current average kron intake per hour where xens are $1.2-1.4mill. If the growth in your income is proportionately greater than the nominal increase in xen prices, then this is representative of the underlying monetary inflation and an underlying DECREASE IN THE VALUE OF KRONS.

The only TRUE way of stopping this inflation is not tinkering with xen prices/drop rates etc. It is to do with fixing the source of this inflation...ie. the increased ease to get kron. In other words, the problem lies in the increase kron received from selling gears and books to NPCs. If the kron received from selling a lvl 60 item to the NPC is the same as the kron received from selling a lvl 101 item to the NPC, then this monetary inflationary might not be such a big problem anymore.

PS. I know dragging economics into this is boring but it's also true.

Here's a sneak peak at real life monetary inflation at work:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul354.html

The financial press reported last week that the value of the U.S. dollar plummeted to a 14-year low against the British pound, and weakened against the Euro and Yen. Many financial analysts predict continued rough times for the dollar in 2007, given reduced expectations for economic growth at home and less enthusiasm among foreign central banks for holding U.S. debt.

This decline in the value of the dollar is simple to explain. The dollar loses value as the direct result of the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury increasing the money supply. Inflation, as the late Milton Friedman explained, is always a monetary phenomenon. The federal government consistently wants to spend more than it can tax and borrow, so Congress turns to the Fed for help in covering the difference. The result is more dollars, both real and electronic – which means the value of every existing dollar goes down.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke faces two basic ongoing choices: raise interest rates to prop up the dollar, but risk pushing the economy into a recession; or lower interest rates to stimulate the economy, but risk further declines in the dollar. This unfortunate dilemma is inherent with a fiat currency, however.

Of course Mr. Bernanke inherited this tightrope act from his predecessor Alan Greenspan. The Federal Reserve did two things to artificially expand the economy during the Greenspan era. First, it relentlessly lowered interest rates whenever growth slowed. Interest rates should be set by the free market, with the availability of savings determining the cost of borrowing money. In a healthy market economy, more savings equals lower interest rates. When savings rates are low, capital dries up and the cost of borrowing increases.

However, when the Fed sets interest rates artificially low, the cost of borrowing becomes cheap. Individuals incur greater amounts of debt, while businesses overextend themselves and grow without real gains in productivity. The bubble bursts quickly once the credit dries up and the bills cannot be paid.

Second, the Fed steadily increased the monetary supply throughout the 1990s by printing money. Recent Fed numbers show double-digit annual increases in the M2 money supply. These new dollars may make Americans feel richer, but the net result of monetary inflation has to be the devaluation of savings and purchasing power.

The precipitous drop in the dollar shows how investors around the globe are very concerned about American deficits and debt. When government policies in a fiat system are the sole measure of a currency’s worth, the currency markets act as a reliable barometer of how those policies are viewed around the world. Politicians often manage to fool voters and the media, but they rarely fool the financial markets over time. When investors lack faith in the U.S. dollar, they really lack faith in the economic policies of the U.S. government.

[Artanis.]

Still our Kron is used for other things. Books bought for kron and used to learn skills Krons for pots and the new tiny pots, return scrolls, warp scrolls, trackers, making use of the transporter, buying quest items and using them all, 50 FIREWOOD, 50 SOULSTONE FRAGMENT wasted for a pet, wasted/used, little things to make us use skills like for me Wisdom Orbs for Eurosia, or Transparant Plant, Life insignias, Wind Symbol.
10 Million kron for a Guild.

But then again I just got my aoe skill recently, i get pots books gear that I all sell to the NPC instead of re-selling to other players because idk the prices of all the books or im to lazy and impatienced to wait for my books to be sold. In comparison I earn more money on Drops, not that I dont have enough kron for spending it on pots but I earn more Kron even tho i spent my kron on pots and other stuff from the NPC.
Logic? well it would be stupid if I dont earn enough money making myself broke buying pots that at certain point i wont have kron to use the transporter to warp myself through other towns.

There are also Players doing someting called Farming. Because alot of players are to high lvl for some quest items to drop, they make another character. Because alot are high lvl and powerfull because they earned alot of kron they will make the character stronger then average buying all the best Gear and Accessory's
for it. When at the right lvl to hunt for firewood soulstonefragments wood leather, they'll kill hawgs and krapuns and aoe the mines like hell to make there kron because of all the expensive drops. After they got
there Drops they either use it for there quests [Mostly the petquest] or re-sell them.

Is this all really that big of a impact? i really dont know

Also theres something called that we can all use, SparkCash.
Bacause i bought over 140 luckyballs i got alot of pots [no perms but thats of topic] Giving me over 9000+ pots for each kind of normal HP and MP pots and 4000+ for each kind of elixer. If I buy pots not using SparkCash pots I would spend around 70.000 a day Tho i was and i still am using my SparkCash pots since I still have alot of it not buying Pots at the NPC at all. Missing out 70.000 kron a day may not be much but im not the only one using SparkCash. Maybe thats why I see so many Venders in bryn and Essene selling Tiny Hp and Mp pots for more or just because they dont sell in essene and bryn or because its a easy way or them to make easykron. Same way for the Player called PotionGirl next to the labyrinth guide with Selling Window "Before you go" selling overpriced Pots.

So what do we have to do about the "To much Kron in the world of Xen" ?
make pots Expensive? Create Medium pots that are better then the Tiny pots but even more expensive.
Everyone Doing the pet quest and the second pet quest buying more quest items from vendors.
Change the drop rate of gear or stuff dropping from Monsters?
Give the XenStone a Time Limit that the Xenstone can only be used in 30 days after it dropped, after
the 30 days time limit its power for enhancing is lost?

[Zeltar]

Artanis, yes it is such a big impact from the NPC sales. a lot of ppl are too lasy to vend everything so NPC it all, reducing the in-game trade and causing inflation, this will hopefully be helped by the in-game item auctioning system.

on the issue of inflation, well we can discuss ideas to solve it here:
http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106830

[Darcaen]

Demand is not the main problem. It is the monetary inflation that is causing 'nominal prices' to continually increase.

Think of it this way: compare your average kron intake per hour at the time xen stones were $300k to your current average kron intake per hour where xens are $1.2-1.4mill. If the growth in your income is proportionately greater than the nominal increase in xen prices, then this is representative of the underlying monetary inflation and an underlying DECREASE IN THE VALUE OF KRONS.
And if it is not?

Because it is not. I am even poorer now than when I was an apprentice. In fact, it has come to an abysmal state that if I party with people or grind solo, I most certainly would be running at a loss.

[I_have_no_shoes]

There were some attempts in the past to keep the prices of xen stones sane, but the prices are still on the rise. I don't think there is one perfect fix to make everything better, but this idea might help.

I hope to seek support from guilds to establish guild rules to buy and sell xen stones at one agreed price.

The agreed price cannot be low. I think, by now, after so many people have bought and sold xen stones along the 1 mil to 1.3 mil (?) price range, it is unrealistic to expect sellers to sell at a lower price. Any sale at lower price range is open to exploitation. What I wish to accomplish here is stability. I want to prevent the prices of xen stones (and AP gears, as part of the vicious cycle) to soar as they are starting to do now.

This cartel will work to set trend for xen stones to become a currency next to Krons. There would be fluctuations, yes, but hopefully very little. Which is why it is of utmost importance for this cartel to gain the support of guilds. Only with the guild system could we organise the sort of agreement needed en masse.

In this discussion thread, I humbly seek the support from all guilds and invite constructive criticisms from everyone that might help refine the cartel, e.g., the actual number for the agreed price, the sort of rules involved, etc.

Thank you for all your help.

lol. It's fun to see xen prices shoot straight up and then have people rehash old ways (which never worked) to keep prices down.

[gouten]

Even after the game masters got there hands dirty it dosnt seem as if anything is working.
The price of xen has not decreased and players are still settling to buy 1 million and above xen stones. I say the problem isn't really the seller but the buyers who settle for high xen prices. The same thing has been done before were players tried to stop xen stones from increasing in price and they have failed because there weren't enough players to go along with, and those who have agreed to it don't stick around for long and just give up. We should all be patent and just wait and NOT settle for the prices of xens. Come on its so easy spend your cash on some other things.

[Darcaen]

lol. It's fun to see xen prices shoot straight up and then have people rehash old ways (which never worked) to keep prices down.
I guess we have different standards of constructive criticism, but in any case, you have missed the mark entirely.

The point of my original post, and the reason why I bothered with this at all, is the fact that this is something new. Regardless of how you think the efforts of many others have "worked," this is untried, and remains a new hope for the game nonetheless. There was never a point in this game where people seek xen stone backing of Krons by the power of guilds.

Also, the point is not to keep the prices down, but price stabilisation. You will note in the very post you quoted for me, I used "buy and sell", and not just sell. The rationale (http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1070268&postcount=11) of which I have also explained in this discussion thread.

I recognise the hard work of many people that have worked towards price stabilisation, even if we don't have the same economics in mind. But people are working hard, and are doing something. Surely there are better ways to get involved than to point and laugh? :)

[Artanis.]

Man Darcaen I like your posts ^^

[I_have_no_shoes]

I guess we have different standards of constructive criticism, but in any case, you have missed the mark entirely.

The point of my original post, and the reason why I bothered with this at all, is the fact that this is something new. Regardless of how you think the efforts of many others have "worked," this is untried, and remains a new hope for the game nonetheless. There was never a point in this game where people seek xen stone backing of Krons by the power of guilds.

I recognise the hard work of many people that have worked towards price stabilisation, even if we don't have the same economics in mind. But people are working hard, and are doing something. Surely there are better ways to get involved than to point and laugh? :)

New, untried? Since when is that a good reason why it will work? Oops, my bad, new ideas always work :rolleyes:.

I'm to lazy to look for a better source, but wikipedia explains things pretty well enough why your idea is pointless.

Before you go and say that real life economics do not apply to a game, let me say that economic behaviour is a byproduct of people, and we have real life people playing a game. If real life economics did not apply, you would not see inflation etc.

1. Private cartels, in real life, are seen as illegal in most jurisdictions in the world. Your cartel is a private cartel - membership is voluntary, and does not apply to everyone playing the game. Public cartels have been able to 'fix' prices, but only because they apply to all people and are enforced by the government (even so, public cartels have mainly been used in times of crisis like wartimes, depression - but not all the times because it is not sustainable).


Private vs public cartel

A distinction needs to be drawn between public and private cartels. In the case of public cartels, the government may establish and enforce the rules relating to prices, output and other such matters. Export cartels and shipping conferences are examples of public cartels. In many countries, depression cartels have been permitted in industries deemed to be requiring price and production stability and/or to permit rationalization of industry structure and excess capacity. In Japan for example, such arrangements have been permitted in the steel, aluminum smelting, ship building and various chemical industries. Public cartels were also permitted in the United States during the Great Depression in the 1930s and continued to exist for some time after World War II in industries such as coal mining and oil production. Cartels have also played an extensive role in the German economy during the inter-war period. International commodity agreements covering products such as coffee, sugar, tin and more recently oil (OPEC) are examples of international cartels which have publicly entailed agreements between different national governments. Crisis cartels have also been organized by governments for various industries or products in different countries in order to fix prices and ration production and distribution in periods of acute shortages.

In contrast, private cartels entail an agreement on terms and conditions from which the members derive mutual advantage but which are not known or likely to be detected by outside parties. Private cartels in most jurisdictions are viewed as being illegal and in violation of antitrust laws.


2. OPEC is a cartel for crude oil. Do you think it is stabilising the price of oil?

3.


Long-term unsustainability of cartels

The reason why cartels are not sustainable is well-explained by the prisoner's dilemma:

Two suspects, A and B, are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal: if one testifies for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both stay silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must make the choice of whether to betray the other or to remain silent. However, neither prisoner knows for sure what choice the other prisoner will make. So this dilemma poses the question: How should the prisoners act?

The dilemma can be summarized thus:

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3028/capturezd1.th.jpg (http://img388.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capturezd1.jpg)

As can be seen, by staying silent (cooperating) both prisoners are better off than in the case where both decide to betray (deviate from the agreement, that is, competing). Nevertheless, if only one of the two prisoners betray while the other stays silent, the former would be free, which is still more desirable for him than having to stay in prison for six months.

Exactly the same occurs in a cartel: while their members are better-off being part to the agreement than competing, deviating could imply capturing a big amount of the market demand/supply and making big profits. In other words, the members of a cartel always have an incentive to deviate from their agreement which explains why cartels are generally difficult to sustain in the long run. Empirical studies of 20th century cartels have determined that the mean duration of discovered cartels is from 5 to 8 years. However, once a cartel is broken, the incentives to form the cartel return and the cartel may be re-formed.

Whether the members of a cartel will choose to cheat on the agreement will depend on whether the short term returns to cheating outweigh the medium and long term losses which result from the possible breakdown of the cartel (this is why, also in the Prisoner's dilemma game, the equilibrium varies if the game is played once or if it is, instead, a repeated game). The relative size of these two factors depend in part on how difficult it is for firms to monitor whether the agreement is being adhered to and on the importance of short-run gains relative to the long-run gain. The longer the time firms in the cartel can cheat without detection, the greater the gains from doing so. Therefore, if monitoring is difficult, the higher the probability that some part to the agreement will cheat and the more unsustainable the cartel will be.

There are several factors that will affect the firms' ability to monitor a cartel:[4]

1. Number of firms in the industry.
2. Characteristics of the products sold by the firms.
3. Production costs of each member.
4. Behaviour of demand.
5. Frequency of sales and their characteristics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel#Antitrust_law_on_cartels

PS. "The point is not to keep the prices down, but price stabilisation." ***?
Price of xen has been steadily rising. By stabilisation, you're trying to stop it or slow the price rise right? If so, how is not trying to keep the prices down. lol

[Darcaen]

Man Darcaen I like your posts ^^
Thanks. :)

New, untried? Since when is that a good reason why it will work? Oops, my bad, new ideas always work :rolleyes:.
I pointed out new and untried in reference to your comment: "lol. It's fun to see xen prices shoot straight up and then have people rehash old ways (which never worked) to keep prices down." Contrary to your statement, the idea is not an "old way".

You can cut the sarcasm. I never said "new ideas always work". In fact, I said, "I don't know if this will work because it has never been done before." This was mentioned in this thread and on the very same post (http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1070268&postcount=11) that I've already shown you. Please don't put words in my mouth. (Especially not at the expense of yourself -- it is very embarrassing.)

I'm to lazy
(This much is apparent, and I probably should just stop right here...)

to look for a better source, but wikipedia explains things pretty well enough why your idea is pointless.

Before you go and say that real life economics do not apply to a game, let me say that economic behaviour is a byproduct of people, and we have real life people playing a game. If real life economics did not apply, you would not see inflation etc.
And before you get all excited after hypothetical assumptions, all my posts on related threads have sound economics in mind. I will happily delve deeper if anyone so wishes. Economics is economics, and the phenomena of economics apply to both real life and this game. There are different parametres need to be drawn, but yes, in any case: I agree, there is economics here.

1. Private cartels, in real life, are seen as illegal in most jurisdictions in the world. Your cartel is a private cartel - membership is voluntary, and does not apply to everyone playing the game. Public cartels have been able to 'fix' prices, but only because they apply to all people and are enforced by the government (even so, public cartels have mainly been used in times of crisis like wartimes, depression - but not all the times because it is not sustainable).
And this is related to the thread because? Are you saying I might get arrested? :p

I used the word "cartel," as in an agreement between people, and this agreement is far from established. I'll happily use another word if it'll get this discussion somewhere above the paraphrase level.

2. OPEC is a cartel for crude oil. Do you think it is stabilising the price of oil?
Oh, OPEC has a very different agenda, I'll give you that. And no, this is not OPEC.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel#Antitrust_law_on_cartels
And your thoughts behind this is?

PS. "The point is not to keep the prices down, but price stabilisation." ***?
Price of xen has been steadily rising. By stabilisation, you're trying to stop it or slow the price rise right? If so, how is not trying to keep the prices down. lol
Like I said, you are missing the point.

The point here (which I've reiterated again and again) is impression. The value of xen stones impressed against a definite number of Krons. Several people have chosen 1 mil as their mark. This is not a bad number, and I have used it as an example myself, for exemplary purposes. But in fact, I have no problem if this number should be 0.5 mil or 5 mil or 50 mil, as long as it is stabilised for an extended period of time.

[I_have_no_shoes]

And before you get all excited after hypothetical assumptions, all my posts on related threads have sound economics in mind. I will happily delve deeper if anyone so wishes. Economics is economics, and the phenomena of economics apply to both real life and this game. There are different parametres need to be drawn, but yes, in any case: I agree, there is economics here.



Good, then the OPEC example is therefore relevant.



Oh, OPEC has a very different agenda, I'll give you that. And no, this is not OPEC.



Are you sure? Since your agenda is:

The point here (which I've reiterated again and again) is impression. The value of xen stones impressed against a definite number of Krons. Several people have chosen 1 mil as their mark. This is not a bad number, and I have used it as an example myself, for exemplary purposes. But in fact, I have no problem if this number should be 0.5 mil or 5 mil or 50 mil, as long as it is stabilised for an extended period of time.

OPEC's agenda is:



And before you get all excited after hypothetical assumptions, all my posts on related threads have sound economics in mind. I will happily delve deeper if anyone so wishes. Economics is economics, and the phenomena of economics apply to both real life and this game. There are different parametres need to be drawn, but yes, in any case: I agree, there is economics here.



Good, then the OPEC example is therefore relevant.



Oh, OPEC has a very different agenda, I'll give you that. And no, this is not OPEC.



Are you sure?

Your agenda is:
The point here (which I've reiterated again and again) is impression. The value of xen stones impressed against a definite number of Krons. Several people have chosen 1 mil as their mark. This is not a bad number, and I have used it as an example myself, for exemplary purposes. But in fact, I have no problem if this number should be 0.5 mil or 5 mil or 50 mil, as long as it is stabilised for an extended period of time.

OPEC's agenda is:
"The OPEC Member Countries coordinate their oil production policies in order to help stabilise the oil market."

-Let's not forget oil producers stand to profit from higher oil prices, just as players who find xens stand to profit from higher xen prices.

-All in all, xen cartel, OPEC: same s**t, different smell.

-Because OPEC has been successful in stabilising the price of oil :rolleyes:, therefore you can do the same :rolleyes:.

Your intentions are good, and I hope you achieve whatever you want to achieve. Doubt it will work though - it only takes a few rich people who are not a part of your cartel to ruin your price stability policy lol.

[Artanis.]

i was always wondering, isnt there a limit to how many XenStones there can be in the game? if people would stop stocking up and start using them...tho maybe they stock there xens for future gear. But if there is a limit to how many XenStones there can be, does that effect the price of the XenStones?
Less Xenstones / high Demand = High priced xens
More Xenstones / high Demand = Lowerd priced xens?

Increasing Xenstone droprate
Lowering the Failure Rate of enhancing
But this will lead to making the game not challenging for when this happend
you'll just see alot of people walking standardly with +4+6ap gears