I've Found These Farmers. (important Inside) [Archive]

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 09:37 AM

For the last 5 days , I've been following and tracking suspisious groups of players , I've came to a strong conclusion that THIS GROUP of People are the : lvlgold.com , farmers , YES INDEED I am RIGHT , (they try to type some english words knowing im taking screenshots) , BUT THEY have been farming in this area and others for DAYS STRAIGHT!!!! GM's refuse to take action , BUT I WILL DO MY BEST TO SEE THEY DO...

you can all critize, complain, cry , harrass me on my thread , but I have personally watched this group of people farm for days and days literally , they have no guild , they just farm your silver and sell it on lvlgold.com!!!!!!!!

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1018/screenshot052qx0.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot052qx0.jpg)

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/227/screenshot054wb0.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot054wb0.jpg) <- ACTUALLY ASKS ME IF I WANT TO BUY THEIR GOLD...... , IVE FOUND THESE GUYS FARMING FOR DAYS ON DAYS......

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1561/screenshot056ms1.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot056ms1.jpg)

Joyfang , pleam , leadia, leadia01, justlee ,are the ones behind this , im almost positive , up to GM's if they want to take action and slow down this ridiculousness.

MewMewLina

09-10-2007, 09:44 AM

Uh huh...where exactly is the proof, aside from that one guy in the second?

If you're going to take pics, take pics that show proof.

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 09:55 AM

really just doesnt matter i guess , they always find their way around it , make new chars, continue farming , nothing outspark can do will change it , or any other MMO for that matter , go look at Silkroad online , and go to their main town , entire town is FULL gold spam , out of control , funny thing is , most of the sites being spammed are the exact same company just making other sites and selling same stuff, MMORPG's are tainted from chinese farming forever , they dont have enough jobs in their country so they use online games to make profit from you all.

Felter

09-10-2007, 10:37 AM

As MewMewLina said there aint any proof but even though Outspark should be able to watch what happens with their accounts, if they are gold farmers then the silver they earn will move around, just follow it and see where it goes then ban the last person to recieve it for buying gold. :rolleyes:

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 11:11 AM

MewMewLina

09-10-2007, 01:58 PM

My second screenshot shows one of the farmers saying: you want to buy our gold?

You accuse more than one, but there's only proof of one.

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 02:22 PM

You accuse more than one, but there's only proof of one.

if you want to act stupid , thats your choice, but as for myself , i know what i see , i see this group of characters farming 24/7 everyday all day , its different people using the same chars constantly farming , mewmew , you're cynical and ignorant , just like everyone else apparently, Congrats.

Deedolith

09-10-2007, 03:06 PM

Unfortunatly there is not much devs can do against farmers, after all, they're playing the game. But against spammer, they can.

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 03:55 PM

Unfortunatly there is not much devs can do against farmers, after all, they're playing the game. But against spammer, they can.

they most certainly can if they find they're linked to the gold purchasing sites, but thats the hard part, takes a strong mind to figure out whats happening..

iwillownu

09-10-2007, 04:48 PM

really thats pure proof thats macroing!!! no one would do that inless they drink energy drinks withc we bdout theyw ould farm for 4 days

Deedolith

09-10-2007, 04:53 PM

it isn't necesserly macroing, (unless you see them doing the same thing over and over again, with the exact same reactions / timers ect ect), these kind of company use workers to keep their farming mules on 24/7. When the job of one is done, another take the place.

Aurthor123

09-10-2007, 05:05 PM

Innocent until proven guilty(im reffering to IXeroI) or in this case truthful until proven wrong.

munemasa

09-10-2007, 05:10 PM

Gosh! "Are you want to buy our gold?"
That hurts... There are a lot of gold farmers from China, unfortunately that's the truth. That's why a lot of game publishers just block China's IP's. It's awful cuz prevents good gamers from China to play.

Aurthor123

09-10-2007, 05:19 PM

Most people in China are too poor to play legit(they dont own comp) or dont have the time to play most of the time. This is just my opinion but i think blocking china's IPsis a good idea since there can't be many legit players there anyway. Also asia has its own version of Fiesta so I don't see why they need to play this version.

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 06:30 PM

Is it an offense to farm now? I farm all the time for mats, whats wrong with that?

ahh, you mean Bots farming? ;) you need evidence of that then, I think something more concrete than "they've been online at the same place for 4 days!!"

Its hard for players to identify bots farming with any substantial evidence, because our methods are limited and only the GM's have necessary methods of finding out. Just ignore them and get on with what you were doing. Do you play the game for your leisure or for others?

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 07:58 PM

UPDATED SCREENS (21 Hours later , this group of characters are STILL FARMING!! NON-STOP !!!!!!! , SAME CHARS , DIFFERENT PEOPLE , ALL DAY 24/7 SAME SPOT)

((((((((IMPORTANT:: READ THE CHAT BOX ON EACH OF THESE , I WAS ABLE TO GET THEM TO TALK THINKING I WAS FRIENDLY)))))

http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070911/vtcvsb4v.jpg (http://www.mypicshare.com/vtcvsb4vpic.html) <-Joyfang wasn't able to type english 20 hours ago hmmm , leads me to think!!!...!

http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070911/9sgj6tj4.jpg (http://www.mypicshare.com/9sgj6tj4pic.html) <-The Boss? I doubt it , just the companies slave farmer like the others, but maybe...

http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070911/p4bhewwt.jpg (http://www.mypicshare.com/p4bhewwtpic.html) <- Just straight admits they get paid crap for farming all day , completely blaten , i'm surprized i got them to talk , their mistake .

http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070911/es0t5e4i.jpg (http://www.mypicshare.com/es0t5e4ipic.html) <- Says which company website they're farming for when I asked.

Anyway , I'll continue to stalk this group of characters until something is done , already spoke with Dakkon , so he will be keen about this thread.

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 08:43 PM

lol, with those inquiries, it almost sounds like you want to be a farmer too, asking how much they make.

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 08:48 PM

lol, with those inquiries, it almost sounds like you want to be a farmer too, asking how much they make.

wow, your not quite so smart huh? its a way to get them to type things GM's will ban for,

-_- slow are we? ^^

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 08:52 PM

mm okay.

I sell gold to anyone and everyone that buys.

I'm also not liable for anything that I write, declare, state, agree to or say.

Where's your evidence now?

Also, which rule have these gold farmers broken? You want to get rid of these people, fine, but again, the way you're going about it, you're just wasting your time. In other words, asking how much they make has got nothing to do with them getting banned. YOU might think it does, but Outspark doesnt, so ..

Terms of Service:

"Advertising

The advertising in our games or on our website generated by third parties does not constitute an endorsement by OUTSPARK, its subsidiaries and affiliates, of the opinions or views expressed by these third party web sites. OUTSPARK explicitly disclaims any responsibility for the accuracy, content, availability, currency, completeness or quality of the content contained at these sites. Further, OUTSPARK is not responsible for the quality or delivery of the products or services offered, accessed, obtained by or advertised at such sites. As such, neither OUTSPARK nor its subsidiaries and affiliates are responsible for any errors or omissions or for the results obtained from the use of such information contained in these sites."

In other words, advertising gold selling is not in violation of any rule. At the moment, the only rule gold sellers are breaking is the "spamming rule" and botting. However account sharing is bannable also:

"Prohibited Actions

You agree not to do any of the following prohibited actions:

2. Permit any other person (including but not limited to a former user whose account OUTSPARK has terminated) to access any OUTSPARK Game, or create or provide any other means through which the OUTSPARK Games may be played by anyone besides you (e.g., through server emulators);"

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 09:09 PM

Selling/Buying In-game currency from online sites/people , is against game policy , hence banning this group of farmers that sell online.

anyway have you seen http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ , i think you would enjoy that alot if you havent hehe

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 09:17 PM

Selling/Buying In-game currency from online sites/people , is against game policy , believe or say what you want , its true for most MMO's , I dont know why you're trying to defend this group/company of farmers that sell to people , maybe because you plan to purchase or something , but keep trying , they will be banned .

Read the ToS. No need to talk like you had concrete for breakfast.

Most MMO's doesnt mean Fiesta, again, you dont KNOW most MMO's do you. Think before talking?

I'm not defending gold farmers, I find it funny that a trivial issue like gold farmers can get people like you so aggravated and worked up. You think you're doing something to help, but you're just making them laugh. The more attention you pay to them, the bigger the issue seems, even if its not. What better form of advertising than grabbing peoples attention?

EDIT: lol you can edit your posts all you want IXeroI, I still got your quote before you changed it ;)

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 10:23 PM

Read the ToS. No need to talk like you had concrete for breakfast.

Most MMO's doesnt mean Fiesta, again, you dont KNOW most MMO's do you. Think before talking?

I'm not defending gold farmers, I find it funny that a trivial issue like gold farmers can get people like you so aggravated and worked up. You think you're doing something to help, but you're just making them laugh. The more attention you pay to them, the bigger the issue seems, even if its not. What better form of advertising than grabbing peoples attention?

EDIT: lol you can edit your posts all you want IXeroI, I still got your quote before you changed it ;)

um well im done responding to you now , you're not a GM or admin so im done, apparently you love to defend the honor of chinese farming , good luck cya.

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 10:26 PM

lol its okay, since you give up, I'll stop rubbing it in your face further.

Smart not to self pwn yourself anymore =)

I think its really sad that you'd sit there for 5 hours just to see if the farmers are bots or not, lmfao.

IXeroI

09-10-2007, 11:04 PM

I think its really sad that you'd sit there for 5 hours just to see if the farmers are bots or not, lmfao.

please tell me you're joking? BOTS ??? hahaha , man after all my screenshots and posts you're still oblivious to what im saying? man smoke another blunt dumb kid?? where are your brains?

BTW: I've been grinding here myself, gotten 3 levels while you're sitting in roumen doing nothing, few bubs from 38 now , what are you? level 12? yeah kid stop replying you're dumb.

tingrui22

09-10-2007, 11:35 PM

i i'm not sure...one of these ppl is my fren and i nvr see him selling gold to me...and i know who r u always see u in elderine u should have seen me b4 stingrui

Cearid

09-10-2007, 11:43 PM

I dunno, I think Im with Xero on this one them *******s are annoying as all hell....

What I think the GM's should do is identify gold farmers and then make it so any player can just kill'em on site, that way all the angry people(me) can just make their lives (in fiesta) hell. :)

anarchy_

09-10-2007, 11:56 PM

please tell me you're joking? BOTS ??? hahaha , man after all my screenshots and posts you're still oblivious to what im saying? man smoke another blunt dumb kid?? where are your brains?

BTW: I've been grinding here myself, gotten 3 levels while you're sitting in roumen doing nothing, few bubs from 38 now , what are you? level 12? yeah kid stop replying you're dumb.

lol are you retarded? Did you even read Outspark's Terms of Service before you agreed to it?

Advertising gold for sale is not an offense. Botting is. Think you can stop pissfarting now.

Misleading information and defamation without fact is also an offense [Prohibited Actions: Rule 3]. You might want to look at what rules you're breaking yourself before worrying about what others are up to.

mesmerise

09-11-2007, 12:22 AM

lol @ IXeroI, pwned.

anarchy_ has some valid points though. If they're not bothering you, and you ignore them, how are they affecting your gameplay?

IXeroI

09-11-2007, 12:35 AM

lol are you retarded? Did you even read Outspark's Terms of Service before you agreed to it?

Advertising gold for sale is not an offense. Botting is. Think you can stop pissfarting now.

Misleading information and defamation without fact is also an offense [Prohibited Actions: Rule 3]. You might want to look at what rules you're breaking yourself before worrying about what others are up to.

I know botting is , but you're saying I was watching "Farmers" for 5 hours seeing if they were bots , which is obviously not what I was doing , I was getting them to talk and say what they were doing , which is farming silver to sell online plain and simple , they already know I know , and have said things to me about it , which is enough actually for a GM to take action if they are saying "sell gold" online at their website for me to buy, and man please if you were me grinding and saw what i was seeing all day , you would be very well damn suspisious , and btw , they actually are bothering my gameplay , when im grinding , they pull HUGEEEEEEE crowds of mobs at once , leaving me little to grind with where I am suppose to , also , they're farming to sell online , which is identified already , so we'll see the outcome , regardless man lets keep it at that , you believe what you feel is right , and I'll believe what I've witnessed for the last week straight with this group of characters , because to be honest , everywhere I've been , I've thought to myself "hmm this group of people plays more than me (and i play everyday all day usually) , as do they, but its non-stop for them it seems , it just fits the description too well , and plus , ive made them talk now , so its pretty much capped off, I thought they were the ones last week , now I know they are this week, pretty much end of story , all i gotta say to end this is , if you saw what ive seen , you would understand alittle better maybe, right now all you think is "its just 5 people playing" which may be correct , but im only doing this because of what its doing to our towns and shout channel , SPAM SPAM for gold online purchasing! , I've talked to GM Dakkon personally about them and this issue , and yes you're right , we need more HARD Evidence, which I'll work on , anyway sleeping now , I bet when i wake up in a few hours and go grind again , same group of chars farming same place again , 100% surely.

anarchy_

09-11-2007, 12:57 AM

er ... right.

I'm not believing what I "think" is right.

I'm only following what Outspark has put in their Terms of Service.

If they're bothering you, then report them for harassment. Why make such a big issue out of nothing? All this hysteria, ppl crying left right and centre.

marasgal

09-11-2007, 01:18 AM

xemil

09-11-2007, 01:50 AM

IXeroI and marasgal...
Stop responding to anarchy_ Giving more attention to a naughty little child will just make it play up more. Just post more info when you get it (though it seems there's not much you can do).

I'm sure I'll get some really clever flame in response to this. So with that assumption I do the following... *Picks up anarchy_ and puts him/her down in the corner*

Cheeser

09-11-2007, 02:05 AM

calm down, even the biggest MMO's have gold farmers, thats just how it works you cant stop it.

pmsben

09-11-2007, 02:33 AM

What I think the GM's should do is identify gold farmers and then make it so any player can just kill'em on site, that way all the angry people(me) can just make their lives (in fiesta) hell. :)

2 weeks ago I was AFK and left my character resting in sea of greed, between the forest and the beach where there were no monsters spawning. After I came back I saw notices in the lower right corner, purple text which said I was attacked by two different players. And a "Do you want to revive" I was already in Elderine by the time I saw my char.

Was that a bug? or a revive-kill attempt lol.

(sorry for the off-topic, didn't want to create a thread about it, you can now proceed with your interesting discussions lol)

Felter

09-11-2007, 06:53 AM

I could be wrong about this but here goes anyway.

Gold farmers are employees of gold sellers, they are paid to produce gold/silver in games for sale for real life cash, normally USD, now as far as I know that is a rule violation that can lead to an account ban. So they are actually breaking the rules on that account.
The gold farmer is sitting in an office somewhere in some country or another, it is a job they work 9 till 5 (might not be their working hours.) They have to eat and use the toilet at times, do you think they stop the gold farming for 30 minutes while they have lunch, I doubt it very much. I have worked in jobs where when you break someone takes over from you and the work does not stop, that is what will happen here. So once again this is a rule violation as an account is only usable by single person. When this person shift ends, do you think they switch the account off and go home, I doubt that very much, I think they would have someone else take over as a higher leveled character has a greater chance to make more gold/silver. Once again this is an account violation which can lead to said account being banned.
The gold farmers do not always use there own characters, they do power leveling where someone pays them real life money to level their character. Once again this is a violation of the rules which could lead to a ban, as they are sharing an account. I suspect that this is their preferred way of farming as they are constantly using a different character, making it harder to discover them just by watching, but it should be easier to spot for the game producers as the IP address would change country.
The lone gold farmer is someone that sells their gold/silver to the larger gold selling company. These are normally people that when they are not playing the game, if they play the game at all or is at work/school whatever it may be, has a bot farming for them, which is a rule violation and can lead to a ban.
So I don't understand how farming can not be against the rules. Every way I look at it they are breaking one rule or another that can lead to an account ban.

mesmerise

09-11-2007, 07:51 AM

wat are your methods of obtaining proof though?

kinda hard for anyone, even GM's to actually *know* if the person behind the keyboard isnt the original person who made the account.

IXeroI

09-11-2007, 08:22 AM

OK, JUST WOKE UP , I'm 100% Totally convinced now , and I'm going to put a stop to this today, its 100% surely true they are supplying the money for the websites selling, this is WITHOUT A DOUBT.

Semaj

09-11-2007, 08:56 AM

good luck mate, it would be nice to have all the spammers off the channels as it makes advertising for what we have for sale difficult. and they're annoying.

IXeroI

09-11-2007, 09:12 AM

good luck mate, it would be nice to have all the spammers off the channels as it makes advertising for what we have for sale difficult. and they're annoying.

will be very hard to get rid of them , but their current farming characters/accounts are in grasp of being deleted , so it will slow their process while we devise a new plan of attack on this constant struggle to maintain a legit game.

Semaj

09-11-2007, 10:30 AM

ya, closed beta was so nice with no gold farmers or bots...

anarchy_

09-11-2007, 08:23 PM

will be very hard to get rid of them , but their current farming characters/accounts are in grasp of being deleted , so it will slow their process while we devise a new plan of attack on this constant struggle to maintain a legit game.

You make it sound like you're doing a lot to remove the problem. Face facts, you're not. You can make new accounts, so can they, do you think account deletion will hinder them? Devise new plan of attack, rofl, your lack of understanding of the issue as well as maturity is clearly evident here.

You think the GM's arent aware of this problem? the way you're going about it, you're wasting GM's time rather than helping them. Actions talk, bs walks.

If you want to help, PM all evidence you find to the GM's instead of posting this in a Forum. Why? because in the event you accidentally label legitimate players by accident, their name wont be tarnished by unnecessary defamatory. Either way GM's will investigate at their discretion, but posting everything here out loud ... you might as well be telling those players "hey I'm onto you, here's what I'm planning to do"

anarchy_

09-11-2007, 08:33 PM

Anarchy, let me ask you a Question.

Is this game the Property of the Developers? I mean Everything, from your account, to the maps, to the items you can pick up, and the Coins.

I think you would have to agree to that.

So If I went into your house, got something that is Your property and sold it, without your permission, would that be ok?

I doubt it. I dont think I know anyone who would let someone just take something that is theirs and sell it, and keep the money. I mean I could be wrong, but I know that me personally wouldnt let someone do that.

I believe if you check the ToS again, that this game is the property of the Developers. So selling something of theirs in Real Life without Permission would be Illegal. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Using the example of my home is irrelevant, laws apply in society as rules & regulations apply in Fiesta. However since you like giving examples, here's a question. Which legitimate court of any western nation takes into account hearsay evidence over physical hard evidence before a verdict?

If I were to write:

Disclaimer:
If you are bidding on, inquiring about, or viewing this auction you are stating that you are in NO way affiliated with Outspark or any associated entity. Fiesta Online is a trademark of Outspark. All characters, items, gold pieces, or other intellectual property in Fiesta are the sole property of Outspark. This auction is not for the ownership of their intellectual property but rather for the time spent working on this character and acquiring items. All references to 'the character', 'the account', Character types (i.e., 'Fighter', 'Main', 'Alternate/alt') and/or 'items', Gold are indicative of my time spent playing these characters. Before bidding on my auction you must read and agree to Outspark's ToS located at: http://www.outspark.com/privacy_policy
All title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to Fiesta are owned by Outspark and its licensors. This auction is not for said rights or intellectual property but is a compensation for time and effort invested personally outside the game. All items related in this auction will remain the sole property of Outspark. By viewing OR bidding on this account you assert that you are in no way affiliated or employed with Outspark.

How would you reply? ;)

This is just a sample I thought up, I'm sure gold sellers would have a more sophisticated version with less loopholes, but similar in essence.

Either way, I think we should just let the GM's do their job, debating about this on a Forum by players hardly impacts on how GM's do their jobs. We have a problem, yes, we're aware of it, GM's are aware of it, what else can we do but wait and see how it goes?

I'm sure the GM's are more capable of considering short/long term solutions to this situation than we are.

IXeroI

09-11-2007, 09:26 PM

The 5 Character's/Accounts have been banned, (thanks to Dakkon and I..) but I'm sure they have already created new ones and are working back up to farm status , in which case , I will find them again eventually here soon.

marasgal

09-11-2007, 09:35 PM

anarchy_

09-11-2007, 09:40 PM

so what your saying is, I can break into your house, take your property, and claim that its not the property I am selling, but the time I spent stealing your property.

Thanks for clearing that up for me :)

Read what is written ... "All title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to Fiesta are owned by Outspark and its licensors. This auction is not for said rights or intellectual property but is a compensation for time and effort invested personally outside the game."

How do you compare robbing a house to this? I'm not taking anything physically away from Outspark, everything remains the property of Outspark. In other words, I buy a house, I invest it and fix it up, wait a few years then sell it for a profit. Does that mean I've stolen from the previous owners? ... slightly frustrated at your lack of understanding now ..

Outspark can do anything at its discretion, without any notice. Thats in the ToS you and I both signed. eg. even if they didnt break the rules, if their behaviour is unethical with ill intent, Outspark will still take action.

If you came to my home, and stole something that was free, like my toilet paper and when you left, the toilet paper was still in my property, I couldnt give a damn. If you want to break laws thats your problem, but I would have thought you had the intelligence to differentiate between a break and enter with intent to steal, to a game.

mesmerise

09-11-2007, 09:49 PM

I think you misunderstood wat anarchy_ was saying marasgal.

with your example, when you enter his house and take something, you are leaving with something physically taken from his home.

I dont think anarchy_ means wen gold sellers sell gold, they are leaving the game with the gold somewhere else, the gold still remains in Fiesta, and is still property of Outspark, subject to their rules. Am I correct anarchy_?

so ... in other words, if you enter anarchy_'s house, take something then leave the house without it, and sell the time you spent there, thats alright.

btw great to hear that IXeroI, at least something is being done :D

Shinmeiryuu

09-11-2007, 09:59 PM

I think I know what Anarchy_ is saying. The items in Fiest are still Outspark's but he spent time gettign those items. By selling them, he's not actually giving the rights of the property to the buyer, but the benefit of the lack of time used to gain them. Is that what you're saying? I'm probably wrong, but I'm just guessing, here...

And be a little more optimistic, Anarchy_. (Tho' it's probably hard with a name like that. -.-)

IXeroI

09-11-2007, 10:31 PM

evident or not , I wouldn't have done this thread if I wasn't 100% Certain of my claims , and the end outcome has proven I was right, although I wish I could say "end of story" , Its really only the start to this on going struggle I/we will be facing , and fighting against .... Though I've gotten ZERO recognition for my actions and fighting, I personally will continue to take matters into my own hands and get these situations under control , and as for finding "them" (Gold Farming) again , I know exactly where and when to be looking ...... I'm ready for it now big time.

Oh, and as for the "SPAM BOTS" , good luck.

marasgal

09-12-2007, 08:10 AM

Felter

09-12-2007, 09:29 AM

With what's being said here I could download a music track on the Internet and then sell that song for a cheaper price than I paid for it, with the said disclaimer or one similar to the one here, then I would not be breaking the law as I would not actually be taking anything physical or removing anything form someones house, it would only be a bit of software it doesn't actually exist.:D

redemption_

09-12-2007, 02:51 PM

marasgal

09-12-2007, 11:21 PM

i know exactly what he is saying. The problem is, he is only right in a very small way.

I know how it works, I have been playing these games for a long time and GMs have told me about this stuff before. Thats how I know about the ToS and how it works. Its really not that hard to understand, once it has been explained to you properly, and not just reading it and saying, Ohh thats what it means.

anarchy_

09-13-2007, 02:15 AM

Look, goto Another game that has sued one of these companies. WoW for example. They will tell you the same thing. Selling of in game stuff, is stealing, point blank, plain and simple.

I dont care what kind of pretty disclaimer you put up, it doesnt nullify the ToS. No matter how good of a lawyer you get and how long/short the disclaimer is.

mmkay ...

No, I wont go look at another game, because the circumstances are different and other games are irrelevant to Fiesta or Outspark. What they tell me has no impact here, they dont write the laws, which apart from being different from every country, also has different consequences in different countries.

Nothing apart from the law nullifies a ToS, because as soon as you sign it, its a legal binding contract. The reason companies have Terms of Service before it accepts people as potential customers is a way of self protection. Your example of WoW has nothing to do with this situation.

Anyone and everyone who plays WoW pays a monthly fee to Blizzard Entertainment. They are legal customers to Blizzard, and Blizzard has a binding legal obligation to fulfill their roles as the service provider. Fiesta is free, full stop. No one pays a cent to play, players are not customers of Outspark at this stage. Outspark has no obligation what so ever, we are trying out a free product, it was our choice to try it, if we didnt like it thats our problem, we have no say in how they spend our money, because we didnt pay any money in the first place.

Blizzard Entertainment often takes prestigious gold farming companies to court, for many reasons. If some unknown, undeveloped random gold farming site, which has little impact on the game or players emerges, if Blizzard sues them, even if they win, they dont profit $$$ wise, lose lose situation.

And they dont need to use gold farming as an excuse for a court case, again, this isnt as simple as you think. They could use HEAPS of reasons, all of them valid, all of them could be true, BUT to sue for compensation, especially over something on the Internet is costly to prove, costly to maintain the case and costly to win, no company would sue anyone if there was no profit involved. Gold farmers affecting the state of business and profitability of Blizzard could be a reason to sue. Like eating at McDonald's and saying theres a ****roach in a burger, it repels potential customers and interferes with business.

I dont understand why you keep coming up with irrelevant arguements that dont prove anything. If we follow your logic, if I buy Coke at the supermarket in bulk for $0.30c a can, and sell it at a school canteen for $1.50, you're saying I've stolen from Coca Cola Amatil Pty. Ltd. and can be sued for any amount of money.

marasgal

09-13-2007, 03:01 AM

No, because you didnt sign a ToS with Coke saying you would not sell their product after you got it.

You are the one who is coming up with far fetched ideas of how things work. All the ToS's are the same, slightly different, but in the basic they all say the same thing.

It has NOTHING to do with, if you pay to play, or play for free. If the ToS says its their property, well that is it. Its the games property, and buying/selling it, is against the rules. There is no gray area, there is no, BUT in it.

Each person who signs the ToS, agrees to what is in the ToS.

You are way outside the borders with your thinking. You need to step back, take a breath, and rethink yourself.

I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to show you, that what your saying is incorrect.

If you dont believe me, then take the time, print the ToS out, and ask a Lawyer. They will tell you that what I am saying is correct.

Its the same basic ToS, for almost every game out there. Except a few that are maintained outside the ToS, but that isnt really part of this Discussion.

anarchy_

09-13-2007, 04:34 AM

lol, so if I write a ToS, its recognised in higher standing than the law, right I might be looking a while to find a lawyer that confirms this.

Simply look at all the supermarket stores that have "No refunds available". In Australia, by law, that is null, whatever ToS they put, they still have to give the refund option, if the item purchased is not of merchantable quality at the time of purchase.

And it does have to do with paying or not. You are not legal customers of anything if you dont pay any money. If a company provides a service and accepts payment, they have a legal obligation to their customers to make sure their service is of the standard agreed upon. Free to play companies dont. You still dont get it. I suggest YOU read the ToS thoroughly, and if you still have any misconceptions, maybe asking a GM to clarify or explain if they're not busy.

And no, each game has their own individual ToS, they dont have a uniform one. They have similar aspects concerning the property belonging to Outspark, and how Outspark deals with rule breakers.

OUTSPARK Games solely for your personal entertainment purposes. OUTSPARK may revoke this license at any time and for any reason.

It also says that Outspark takes no responsibility for how you manage your account and if you participate in services regarding Fiesta that is not part of Outspark, you do so at your own risk.

YOU ASSUME ALL RISKS THAT THE SITE, CONTENT, USER MATERIALS, APPLICATIONS, AND RELATED INFORMATION ARE SUITABLE OR ACCURATE FOR YOUR NEEDS AND WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR-FREE. ANY APPLICATIONS DOWNLOADED OR OTHERWISE OBTAINED THROUGH THE OUTSPARK SITE ARE AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION AND RISK AND YOU ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR COMPUTER OR LOSS OF DATA. BY PARTICIPATING IN MULTI-PLAYER GAMES OR VISITING CHAT ROOMS YOU MAY BE EXPOSED TO RUDE, CRUDE, INDECENT, OR OTHER OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE OR REFERENCES.

Look, you're forgetting what this argument is even about and if you read carefully, we are not even arguing the same topic here.

You're saying selling gold is illegal.

I'm saying until you prove they broke a rule, not simply hearsay or whatever the accused is saying. Assumptions are assumptions, you dont know for sure, only the GM's do. As well as pointing out to you, that this isnt as simple as you convey it to be. All you or I know is the ToS, and that is not enough to go to court on. Gold sellers can write their own ToS too you know.

redemption_

09-13-2007, 04:39 AM

Hey Guys,

Sorry for the late reply. The GM Team has been working out solutions to the problem of Gold Spammers, and are well aware of the negative effects these things have on our community. We are doing our best to come up with solid solutions in order to free Fiesta and our future games of this problem. Please be patient, and wait for more updates as we go through the negative and positive aspects of your proposals as well as our own ideas. Once we have finalized our plans and are ready for action, we will let you know as soon as possible. Again, thank You for your patience and be assured that we are doing the best we can.

- Break

GM Break has already addressed this issue and Outspark is working on a solution marasgal.

Eli I think you should stop the argument now, slightly pointless seeing how adamant marasgal is that he's right and you're wrong.

hickwarrior

09-13-2007, 05:02 AM

So is that in the ToS already? Guess i want to read that. And it seems that someone also wants the cold hard evidence that they are gold farming.

... I need to know what points are stated here as well now though ^^'. Since there is so much information idon't get the point. So to say, get to your point.

anarchy_

09-13-2007, 05:09 AM

Eli I think you should stop the argument now, slightly pointless seeing how adamant marasgal is that he's right and you're wrong.

Alright Karen, last one =P

I dont think I explained myself clear enough in my previous post.

Outspark has their Terms of Service, if you sign up, you agree to their terms. If you were to violate a rule and as a consequence, were banned and removed from the game, that is entirely up to Outspark and has no legal repercussions. Simple, you sign up to their company, you listen to their rules or they give you the kick. However, to take someone to court, its not that easy. Courts uphold the law, and only the law, they dont take into account every ToS that every Jack and Jill writes up. The ToS is a personal contract between the service provider and the customer, and it states what the consequences are if you break a rule. If you havent violated the law, no repercussions will follow in any court.

However, you CAN take someone to court and sue for personal damages. If a gold selling company has damaged your business with their unethical behaviour, which has obstructed the way you carry out your business and resulted in loss of profit or, had a negative impact on your source of income, customers.

Dont confuse the two together marasgal, a ToS is significantly different to a law and isnt enough to take someone to court.

Drusciliana

09-13-2007, 07:25 AM

We can debate ethics until we're blue in the face. My issue is with the people who farm for RL profit and those that buy the in-game cash from them. I think they ruin "the spirit of the game". We all know they do this. Unfortunately, this isn't a full-PK game, so there's not much the playerbase itself can do about it. We're all tired of the spam, and I'm personally getting tired of something else, which I will now explain.

A few of these "farmers" are now trying to stake claims of land as their own. Since there is no PK, they'll try to kill you with mobs. This has happened 3 times so far in one night, while me and MyYing were out grinding levelling. Chuckster (a dirty crony from that scumbag BusooRenin or whatever the hell it is guild) and a few of his assmonkey friends saw we were fighting the easy mobs that drop good loot and collecting nodes in their area, so they would repeatedly run around and aggro any mob they could while using the Invincibility skill (They were all clerics). They would subsequently bring the dozen or so mobs on top of us, then use return scrolls and disappear, thus leaving all the mobs to attack us. Once I died, other times we barely managed to fight them off (17.5 second invincibility works wonders :P). Solo players, or players unprepared, or just unskilled players will certainly be repeatedly killed by this. They don't speak a lick of English, so asking them to stop is out of the question. I personally think that this is wrong, and deliberately training people with the intent to kill them should be bannable. We need full PK, so I can castrate these little sweat shop boys.

I don't need screenshots to prove this so just save your whinings. Anyone that knows me knows that falsifications and exaggerations never come out in my writings.

We need full PK! Yay!

Dru...

P.S. - Sorry if it seems like a bad post by me, keep getting interrupted trying to work so it kinda switches topics. Later boys and girls :P