[Attention] Debate Thread

[Dr_Feelgood]

innocence... what the hell is that?

[irroc29]

Riko, I kind of disagree with you.

In my post, I made the argument that being naive and innocent were different, and a very thin line separated the two. I think what you've explained about the boy not knowing is him being naive or ignorant.

Innocence is more what Takimi said. The more you know about something, the less innocent you become. This is why what Takimi said about young children being more innocent is deemed true.

An example of innocence to me is a child who has done no harm and knows nothing of harm or the evils of the world. Furthermore, I feel like being naive is to be unsuspecting of the bad things that happen in our society.
Just because someone is ignorant of what homosexuality is, does not make them innocent.

[ChildOfFire]

innocence is when a human is less than five year old, naive?.. depend on how the people grow up, it could be up till they are 10-12, or maybe whole life. But naive for me have a bit essence of stupidity. If u done wrong for the first time, it could be because you don't know, if u do the same mistake for the second time that mean you are clumsy, and if u do the same mistake for the third time..that called stupidity.

[kroncho]

Innocence is a term used to indicate a state of moral purity or general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing.

Innocence can also refer to a state of unknowing, where one's experience is lesser, in either a relative view to social peers, or by an absolute comparison to a more common normative scale.

[irroc29]

What a fantastic third post. =3

[ShonenHero]

Innocence is a term used to indicate a state of moral purity or general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing.

Innocence can also refer to a state of unknowing, where one's experience is lesser, in either a relative view to social peers, or by an absolute comparison to a more common normative scale.

The thought crosses everyone`s mind when reading this thread: "Whoa, I`ll paste a dictionary entry and I`m gonna be TEH L33TEST" but we have a rule against them in these kinds of debates: We`re talking about the concept of the word (Or the concept itself) and what it encases, for each of us, in our opinions.

However, I do notice you want to participate, so why not elaborate an answer with your own views on the matter? ^^

[RikoRain]

Guys, if youre gonna post, POST. Dont post this "reserved for later" crud, and then either never post, or edit it later using everyone elses ideas.

If youre going to post later, THEN POST LATER. Dont post now and claim to post later. Were most likely not going to scroll back pages just to read your edited post.

This is NOT a 'reserved' thread, if you wanan go spam, make your own, spam it, and get banned. Otherwise, dont do it here please =.= Honestly its better to just post later, than post now and edit it later, because were not gonna see it.
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With that said, please also dont use dictionary entries. I didnt, and lok, ppl criticized mine. I dont care. I dont agree with alot of what they said, but so what? People think of words different ways. The person who made that dictionary entry has one thought of the word, but the rest of the world has many more. Thats what this thread is for.

Witht hat said as well, I still think Innocence pertains more to the understanding. Children are innocent because they dont UNDERSTAND, even if they do something totally "evil", they dont understand the reasoning of why its "evil" and why they shouldnt do it. They are "innocent". As you grow older, you understand why, and thus become more OVERALL not-innocent. But you WILL still find adults who are innocent in some areas, but since we are adults and have a better capacity for understanding and better experience understanding, we ar emost likely not innocent in that area very long.

Innocence is not a term that just describes every kid under the age of 5 or so. Otherwise it would be what we call Children, instead of using the word Children.
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Btw Neo, its "73h 1337357" lol I forget off the top of my head what you use for h. xD I think technically its 14 >.> If you do the whole number wise

[smileeloser101]

Ok fine Riko, no more reserved posts.

Anyway. I do not feel that "innocence", "naivety", and "ignorance" are interchangeable terms though they are certainly related. I don't think there is any ONE constant definition of "innocent" either. When you look it up in the dictionary, there will always be multiple defintions, but the one that really sums it up is "simplicity"

Simplicity of thought, simplicity of action.

[ChildOfFire]

[B]

Innocence is not a term that just describes every kid under the age of 5 or so. Otherwise it would be what we call Children, instead of using the word Children.
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I'm not saying it in the term of an object, but in term how they think. How they see the world. Once they become older, how they see the world will be much more different. Human relatively start to understand more once they become 6 years old. But i'm speaking without a proper fact or number to prove my word, solely on my opinion and experience.

[mikejodeb123]

guys, if youre gonna post, post. dont post this "reserved for later" crud, and then either never post, or edit it later using everyone elses ideas.

If youre going to post later, then post later. Dont post now and claim to post later. Were most likely not going to scroll back pages just to read your edited post.

This is not a 'reserved' thread, if you wanan go spam, make your own, spam it, and get banned. Otherwise, dont do it here please =.= honestly its better to just post later, than post now and edit it later, because were not gonna see it.
-----------------------------------------

with that said, please also dont use dictionary entries. I didnt, and lok, ppl criticized mine. I dont care. I dont agree with alot of what they said, but so what? People think of words different ways. The person who made that dictionary entry has one thought of the word, but the rest of the world has many more. Thats what this thread is for.

Witht hat said as well, i still think innocence pertains more to the understanding. Children are innocent because they dont understand, even if they do something totally "evil", they dont understand the reasoning of why its "evil" and why they shouldnt do it. They are "innocent". As you grow older, you understand why, and thus become more overall not-innocent. But you will still find adults who are innocent in some areas, but since we are adults and have a better capacity for understanding and better experience understanding, we ar emost likely not innocent in that area very long.

Innocence is not a term that just describes every kid under the age of 5 or so. Otherwise it would be what we call children, instead of using the word children.
-------------------------

btw neo, its "73h 1337357" lol i forget off the top of my head what you use for h. Xd i think technically its 14 >.> if you do the whole number wise


|-| :p

[RikoRain]

Rofl..

New topic:
Is it necessarily good or bad to euthanize a pet if the outcome is not good?

As in, if the pet will die within a year, and obviously be in pain for that year, do you view euthanasia as the best option, or the worst? I know its a touchy subject, and some think you should never euthanize a pet but.. thoughts start occurring when you have a cat having nonstop seizures, and the Valium isnt working atm.. So define it, explain it, point out your personal barriers on the view.

Some people would argue its bad, because you can find a solution, but there are those things that there are no solutions for..

For this topic, my mouth is staying mostly shut, if I were to talk about it I woul start crying again. Too painful.

:x You guys discuss.

[UzumakiW]

This thought has always been one I never want to think about, since my oldest cat is getting to about the average age =/. He's going to be 14 in Feb. I don't like thinking about this kind of topic because I grew up with him. I had him since he was a kitten. He is the greatest pet I've ever had. Thankfully, he's still a pretty healthy and active cat, but when the time comes when we have to make a decision like this, I don't even know how bad it's going to be for me. My dad, who's the toughest person I know told me he wouldn't be able to be in the room if there ever comes a time we have to put our cat down.

So, in my opinion, I think it can be a good thing to euthanize a pet if there is no way what they have can be cured. Personally, I love my pets, but if one of them has something that can't be cured, it would just kill me even more to watch my pet suffer everyday I see them. Now, if it's something that can be cured, I would try anything I could to pay for my pet to be cured of whatever they have, but if there is no other way, then as sad as it is to say for me, I'd like to think that the best decision would be to put an end to its suffering.

I hate thinking about this. I'm going to hate to see any of my pets pass on :(.

[RikoRain]

This thought has always been one I never want to think about, since my oldest cat is getting to about the average age =/. He's going to be 14 in Feb. I don't like thinking about this kind of topic because I grew up with him. I had him since he was a kitten. He is the greatest pet I've ever had. Thankfully, he's still a pretty healthy and active cat, but when the time comes when we have to make a decision like this, I don't even know how bad it's going to be for me. My dad, who's the toughest person I know told me he wouldn't be able to be in the room if there ever comes a time we have to put our cat down.

So, in my opinion, I think it can be a good thing to euthanize a pet if there is no way what they have can be cured. Personally, I love my pets, but if one of them has something that can't be cured, it would just kill me even more to watch my pet suffer everyday I see them. Now, if it's something that can be cured, I would try anything I could to pay for my pet to be cured of whatever they have, but if there is no other way, then as sad as it is to say for me, I'd like to think that the best decision would be to put an end to its suffering.

I hate thinking about this. I'm going to hate to see any of my pets pass on :(.

Yes see my oldest cat is 15. Usually cats live to be about 20 or so. So I figured I had at least 5 more joyous years to love on my pets before having to see one die.
Ive had to give away several others.
5 kittens and 3 adults in the town I used to live in, but they were outside cats, and could survive very well, so I knew they would live good lives. Besides it was on the "good side" of town, where alot of people took in stray animals.
Another cat was my most beloved, and when we moved we couldnt take her with us due to animal restrictions, so I took her to the ASPCA and put her in the adoption cage. She was a good cat, loving, social, active, adorable as heck, already spayed and such, so I KNEW she would get a good home and continue living a good life.
Same happened with my dog. Only for him it was a massive flea infestation caused from having to take him out for walks so.. the same tho, he was healthy, cute, spayed/neutered, trimmed, all that good stuff.

But now my brothers kitten is having seizures, constantly. Did you know.. theres no cure for seizures? Seizures CAN be caused by other illnesses, but its very hard to find these. They have to do oodles of expensive tests to attempt to find it. Meanwhile she lives in pain waiting for results. And if the results are inconclusive.. then they attempt to put her on anti-convulsive medication for the rest of her life. Which doesnt stop them, she will still have seizures. And she will only live a few months to a year, maybe a bit longer, in this pain, only to die from a seizure in the end anyway, but more painfully.

Ive had two close friends who had pets (dogs though) who had seizures, and not the nonstop kind, he regular every-so-often kind (the nonstop is known as "cluster" seizures, and are far more dmging), and they only lived a year more on this medication, still seizure, only to have their owners come home one day to find them dead.

So.. thats kinda why I brought the topic up. I love this cat to death. I havent exactly been 100% nice to her.. but I love every single bit of her. But.. while I love her and I dont ever want to leave her.. I know this is painful for her. "They are our family, our babies. When they hurt, we hurt". I would honestly rather be able to say goodbye to her and love on her loads to ease her passing, to feel a slight ***** then fall asleep happily (you cant sleep when seizing, fyi), than.. to have her struggle on, unable to sleep or have any peace time, to suddenly find her dead one day and not being able to say goodbye.
Btw, shes on Valium treatment atm, attempting to stop her seizures..

And dang it.. I made myself cry again.. -sighs and goes to walk around for a bit-

[Takimi]

Euthanasia of Pets--

You've brought a very personal, and touchy subject with me. I normally would forbid it and go all animal rights activist on you if you even suggested-- however-- out oldest dog, a rescued racing greyhound, is twelve years old this year. As with most older greyhounds, she has developed a trembling in her back-left leg. It's not curable. And sometimes it shakes very violently.

My mom's said a few times that she doesn't think Eden (the greyhound) will live through christmas; on the assumption that the tremors are painful for the dog.

She's also noted that most older greyhounds develop this because of breeding. Breeders breed for speed in early life. Not necessarily comfortable old age. Did you know that unless those greyhounds are rescued after they retire (by like, age 3-4) they are put down? The people that run them are cruel and heartless. They starve the greyhounds so they will run fast to catch the mechanical rabbit that goes ahead of them on the track.

Sometimes they feed them raw meat-- which isn't that good for them. They also stuff them in kennels too small for them-- we know this because we adopted Eden with no fur on her rear. It had all been rubbed off in her kennel.

Eden, for the eight years we've had her, has had a permanent food issue. She would gorge herself is she could. We have to moderate her meals and treats so she doesn't over-eat.

And so, it's been predicted that her trembling will get too painful/violent for her. It's expected we'll have to put her down.

Now, out of our two dogs, she isn't my favorite. She's a sweet old lady (albeit annoying sometimes), but she's more mom's dog than anything.

[UzumakiW]

Yes see my oldest cat is 15. Usually cats live to be about 20 or so. So I figured I had at least 5 more joyous years to love on my pets before having to see one die.
Ive had to give away several others.
5 kittens and 3 adults in the town I used to live in, but they were outside cats, and could survive very well, so I knew they would live good lives. Besides it was on the "good side" of town, where alot of people took in stray animals.
Another cat was my most beloved, and when we moved we couldnt take her with us due to animal restrictions, so I took her to the ASPCA and put her in the adoption cage. She was a good cat, loving, social, active, adorable as heck, already spayed and such, so I KNEW she would get a good home and continue living a good life.
Same happened with my dog. Only for him it was a massive flea infestation caused from having to take him out for walks so.. the same tho, he was healthy, cute, spayed/neutered, trimmed, all that good stuff.

But now my brothers kitten is having seizures, constantly. Did you know.. theres no cure for seizures? Seizures CAN be caused by other illnesses, but its very hard to find these. They have to do oodles of expensive tests to attempt to find it. Meanwhile she lives in pain waiting for results. And if the results are inconclusive.. then they attempt to put her on anti-convulsive medication for the rest of her life. Which doesnt stop them, she will still have seizures. And she will only live a few months to a year, maybe a bit longer, in this pain, only to die from a seizure in the end anyway, but more painfully.

Ive had two close friends who had pets (dogs though) who had seizures, and not the nonstop kind, he regular every-so-often kind (the nonstop is known as "cluster" seizures, and are far more dmging), and they only lived a year more on this medication, still seizure, only to have their owners come home one day to find them dead.

So.. thats kinda why I brought the topic up. I love this cat to death. I havent exactly been 100% nice to her.. but I love every single bit of her. But.. while I love her and I dont ever want to leave her.. I know this is painful for her. "They are our family, our babies. When they hurt, we hurt". I would honestly rather be able to say goodbye to her and love on her loads to ease her passing, to feel a slight ***** then fall asleep happily (you cant sleep when seizing, fyi), than.. to have her struggle on, unable to sleep or have any peace time, to suddenly find her dead one day and not being able to say goodbye.
Btw, shes on Valium treatment atm, attempting to stop her seizures..

And dang it.. I made myself cry again.. -sighs and goes to walk around for a bit-

I'm very sorry to hear this. And as I've said, I do agree with what you're talking about with your cat. Personally, I've never had to deal with anything like this with any of my pets. But I know I'd rather see my pets have their suffering put to an end and me being sad/depressed about it than being a bit more happy and seeing my pets suffer everyday until their suffering is finally too much for them and they pass. I hate to say this, but if that day ever comes when we have to put my oldest cat down (I talk about my oldest cat mostly because he's older than all of my other pets than over five years), I don't know if I can be in the same room as when it happens. It's going to really kill me if that time ever comes. As you've said, the life expectancy of a cat is around 20 years, so my cat has about a bit more than 6 years, but if you think about it, that's not a lot of time when it comes to something's life. But as I've said, if he is constantly suffering, I'd rather see his suffering put to an end :(.

Ako is very sad now thinking about this. I wish my cat lived here with me instead of at my dad's house. I want to spend time with him now :( :( :(.

[RikoRain]

I'm very sorry to hear this. And as I've said, I do agree with what you're talking about with your cat. Personally, I've never had to deal with anything like this with any of my pets. But I know I'd rather see my pets have their suffering put to an end and me being sad/depressed about it than being a bit more happy and seeing my pets suffer everyday until their suffering is finally too much for them and they pass. I hate to say this, but if that day ever comes when we have to put my oldest cat down (I talk about my oldest cat mostly because he's older than all of my other pets than over five years), I don't know if I can be in the same room as when it happens. It's going to really kill me if that time ever comes. As you've said, the life expectancy of a cat is around 20 years, so my cat has about a bit more than 6 years, but if you think about it, that's not a lot of time when it comes to something's life. But as I've said, if he is constantly suffering, I'd rather see his suffering put to an end :(.

Ako is very sad now thinking about this. I wish my cat lived here with me instead of at my dad's house. I want to spend time with him now :( :( :(.

;~; Yeah Im especially nice to my oldest cat. (hes 15, and the next oldest is.. 7 i think?) Just because I dont want to get to that day, and regret not having spent more time with him and stuff. I hate to talk about it, because I find it kinda rude to HIM (teh cat), but if/when he has to be put down, I WILL be in the room with him, and I WILL be crying. BUT I know he loves to sleep with me, huddled up next to me with my arm around him just like any human would a real baby, so when that time comes, I KNOW I will be right there, making his last few minutes very happy, purr-filled ones.
I made myself cry again. <~ goes to love on da ol man cat

As for my bros kitten... THE VALIUM IS WORKING. Yessssssssssssssssssss took it long enough! But her "twitching" is gone. I woke up at 2 am to hear her meowing constantly, went in there, loved on her for 5 min, got tired of it, ignored her for about a min, then she curled up next to me and went sound asleep. :) Go valium go, do yer stuff!!! >.< pweese?

[lenore_lurks]

The most wonderful noise I heard one day was the sound of my kitty cat meowing for food again after about 2 months of her being at the vet in a generally sick/vegetative state. That cat cost me alot of money... but she's worth it.

Euthanasia was mentioned to me at various times. The vets had no idea what was wrong with her. She had major neurological issues, like you could tell that she simply wasn't 'there' anymore. She would react only to a scratch under the chin, slowly get up and would walk straight off the vet table if you didn't stop her/hold her. She simply was not there mentally, as she would then stop, collapse and fall bak into a complete non-responsive state. The vets thought she wouldn't survive overnight, told me that if she did they may have to look at putting her down anyway due to lack of quality of life.

I think that if it is a very serious problem, that basically removes all aspects of life from them, then euthanasia is the most humane thing to do. I was seriously considering it for my cat. Luckily I didn't have to, but I know my friend had to put her cat down after about 17 wonderful years because she simply wasn't eating and was starting to fade away physically and mentally (she still refuses to talk about it, it affected her so much). Sometimes it is simply for the best, in order to relieve them of pain, to let them go. This would be in extreme cases though. I'm not too sure about a dog with leg tremors being so serious to have to put it down if there was a way to control that. But when you can see that they are in pain every minute of their lives, that they are not responding... it is the most humane thing to do.

[irroc29]

Next topic, vegetarianism. I personally think that eating meat is alright--I mean, we're omnivorous, we eat both meat and herbs. The world has these hands full of people who think that eating meat (or even more drastic when it comes to vegans, who can't eat anything coming from an animal, such as milk). So what do you guys think? Do you think vegetarians and/or vegans are just extremists?

[Takimi]

Ah well-- I don't really have a debate on this-- but--

I love my meat. *licks chops*

YUMYUM

*nibbles on peoples*

WHAT??!!

Anyways, but still, I think it's extreme to eat nothing meat related. I don't know much about this subject, and therefore can't contribute to it--

=/

[RikoRain]

Next topic, vegetarianism. I personally think that eating meat is alright--I mean, we're omnivorous, we eat both meat and herbs. The world has these hands full of people who think that eating meat (or even more drastic when it comes to vegans, who can't eat anything coming from an animal, such as milk). So what do you guys think? Do you think vegetarians and/or vegans are just extremists?

I think they are dietists / attention seekers.

Why diet people? Because most of what you hear is people werent happy with their image, so they became "vegans" and OMG THEYRE LIFE IS SO WONDERFUL.
What they forget is the human body needs protein. It is DEPENDANT on protein. Sure you can get basically protein-like stuff from things like beans and rice, etc, but NOTHING can replace real meat, and the healthy fats it has in it (yes, it has healthy fats in it too).

If you want to eat healthy, then eat more fish and chicken products. Eating only vegiges because you dont wanna hurt animals is rediculous, because alot of those products are made as a result of animals.
You dont wanna drink their milk as well? Okay.. then dont eat or drink or wear or ANYTHING that comes from them. Nothing. And since the ground is often fertilized with animal feces and bodies, then dont go eating plants either.
:P
I can go further and be more literal.

We are omnivores, we are meant to eat meat.

Now I do understand there are some bad ways to go about.. uh.. making meat products, but you gotta understand thats how a large society like us have to do things. We MUST specifically breed animals for the purpose of making meat products. Would you rather us just go out and take animals that are happily playing out in fields n stuff? No.

[UzumakiW]

Off topic, but that reminded me of this XD
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh112/boomergirl8/animalcrackers.jpg

Anyway, I don't really have a problem with vegetarians too much. If they don't want to eat meat, that's up to them. As long as they're not trying to get me to stop eating meat, I don't really care. One of my best friends is actually a vegetarians. I'm one of those kinds of people who sometimes messes with him for it too :rolleyes:, but he's not trying to get me to stop eating meat, so it doesn't bother me.

The whole vegetarians/vegan thing is weird to me, though. I didn't know this, but apparently, from what I've been told, vegetarians are still able to eat fish, which confused me since fish is still a meat o.0.

I mean sure, it's kind of sad at times to think of animals being slaughtered for me to eat, but that's how things work. Animals eat other animals. It's the way life is. Your ads and talks about how animals are mistreated are not going to get me to stop eating meat, so you should stop trying :rolleyes:.

Also off topic again; one of my friends thought it would be funny to give my e-mail to PETA, so for about six months, I've been receiving e-mails from PETA, and I finally recently realized I was able to take myself off their mailing list >.<. PETA is a bit off in my opinion :rolleyes:

[Dr_Feelgood]

Vegetarians are.... ugh... I dont want to say it, but they **** ME OFF

[DF001]

I think vegetarians are nuts.

Not like vegetables can replace the vitamins that the meat gives :)

[LadyMystra]

The whole vegetarians/vegan thing is weird to me, though. I didn't know this, but apparently, from what I've been told, vegetarians are still able to eat fish, which confused me since fish is still a meat o.0.

Pescitarians eat seafood, but they do not eat meat or poultry, they may or may not eat eggs or dairy.
Lacto-ovo vegetarians can eat eggs and dairy, but no meat (either land or sea animals.)
Lacto vegetarians have dairy, but not eggs.
Ovo vegetarians do not have dairy, but have eggs.
Vegans have no meat from either land animals or sea animals, no dairy, no animal byproducts (as an example, vegans wouldn't use white sugar because of the bone char that is used to filter most cane sugar.)

[Takimi]

DF001,
I must ask you that if you reply to this thread-
you are expected to make a thought-out, well-detailed, lengthy reply that explains your thoughts on this and expands on the topic.

This is NOT a spam thread, and this is NOT Post to a Million or 2 Word Story thread. This is a DEBATE thread.

PLEASE respect the rules, or I will have to ask you to leave this thread.

And for everyone else, please, respect the RULES of this thread, there ARE rules, FIRST POST of this thread!

-Taki

[ShonenHero]

DF001,
I must ask you that if you reply to this thread-
you are expected to make a thought-out, well-detailed, lengthy reply that explains your thoughts on this and expands on the topic.

This is NOT a spam thread, and this is NOT Post to a Million or 2 Word Story thread. This is a DEBATE thread.

PLEASE respect the rules, or I will have to ask you to leave this thread.

And for everyone else, please, respect the RULES of this thread, there ARE rules, FIRST POST of this thread!

-Taki


True, but you might also want to add the Doc to your statement Taki, since he made a comment of equal contribution just before Zappy, and I think it´s a bit unfair if you only warn him

And, you also made a similar comment not long ago, about licking chops

I don´t mean to flame anyone, stir up trouble, or cause any argument, but once again, if we´re gonna be strict, let´s be strict with everyone

[RikoRain]

Pescitarians eat seafood, but they do not eat meat or poultry, they may or may not eat eggs or dairy.
Lacto-ovo vegetarians can eat eggs and dairy, but no meat (either land or sea animals.)
Lacto vegetarians have dairy, but not eggs.
Ovo vegetarians do not have dairy, but have eggs.
Vegans have no meat from either land animals or sea animals, no dairy, no animal byproducts (as an example, vegas wouldn't use white sugar because of the bone char that is used to filter most cane sugar.)

LOL WHAT HYPOCRITES!
"I dont eat meat" but you eat fish. Fish are living creatures too "I dont eat anything that lives" well plants live. Lol

What hypocrites... you gotta love it..

But like I said you cant replace the meats vitamins and our bodies necessity to eat it. Its like the family who were vegans, thought it was funny to stick their baby as a vegan (true story btw, House show just copied it as a basis for a episode. If you think about it some of their stuff is based on real events or things seen), but anyway, baby nearly dies because babies need protiens from meat. WE need protiens from meat, we need its fat, etc. Just cus the animal is soft and furry doesnt mean you shouldnt eat it, especially if its something our biology calls for.

Lo and Neo.. just.. lo... -remembers yesterday- Just ... LOL...

One would say they shouldn't have made those posts because there were already several others about not posting like that. And may I add, Neo, you didnt reply on any topic in here. Only posted to criticize the thread master. Besides, since OMG everyone reads 100% of the posts, all three of yall shouldnt have posted non-topic sustaining things. :P I play that game too :3

[lenore_lurks]

*ahem ahem ahem* Vegetarians are not hypocrits. Ldy very plainly pointed out the different types of vegetarians, and the different levels that come under that whole unbrella term 'vegetarian'.

Personally, I cannot claim to simply be a vegetarian, as I eat chicken and I eat fish. But I refuse to eat red meat. Why? Because I simply do not want to. The smell does not repel me, the look and thought does not irk me - but I have absolutely no reason, no need, no want, to eat red meat. And I do perfectly fine without it. If I need more iron in my diet, then I eat green leafy vegetables and take iron tablets.

We, on this planet do not need to be eating as much red meat as we are. It's true. We can, and obviously do, but we do not have to. Traditionally, cultures would hunt for food and kill an animal that would then be shared wtih the whole group and the various other body parts would be used to make clothes, implements, medicinal things etc etc. Now, we slaughter millions of animals and barely use any of it. We pump them full of hormones and genetically modify them to make them bigger, but it comes at a huge cost, and that is their quality of life. Don't believe me? Go and do some research. I'm not saying all farms are like that, but the majority do not take care of the animals the way they deserve because they need to fill in those orders from the Golden Arches quick smart! If you care about where your food comes from, I suggest you buy local, talk to your butcher, and understand the term 'free range'.

I may add more to this, I don't know. I think I got a bit off-track to the focus of the question... but I will close this part with a funny story. I was at a festival once, and a comedian was up on the stage. Now, this was in Byron Bay, a place people call 'the hippy capital of the world'. And they're not far off. Anyway, she was up on stage and was telling a story about how she had some friends over for a glorious, sumptuous feast. One of these friends brought along an extra friend. This extra friend was a lovely woman, great to talk to etc etc... but when it came to eating the meal set out, she wouldn't do it. Her reasoning was she was a breatharian. She lived on air. That's it. She asked 'have you got a fan?' and yes, the comedian hostess did. She brought it out, set it by the table, and this woman sits down in front of the fan with her mouth open and took in her meal for the night.

Of course, this was all a joke, and it was playing on this idea of people taking their diets so far... but it would not surprise me even in the slightest is some people subscribed to the 'breatharian' way, even if it was on a temporary basis. Its like some people refuse to eat anythng unless it has already died naturally, or fallen off the tree onto the ground, because they feel that is the only natural way to eat.

[Lordlymight]

You are struck by wall of text for 10d6 damage

Disclaimer 1: I disagree with a significant number of posts recently added. I will be dissecting each one and putting my comments forth. Some of them will include a bit of brutal honesty. If you have something useful to add, please do, but if you intend to simply complain, please keep it to PM, where I will be glad to let you vent. Most important, don’t think that I have any less regard for you because I have countered a post you wrote. I consider any one brave enough to actually take the time to examine their thoughts and put them to text to be a cut above.

Disclaimer 2: Definitions are an integral part of debate, fundamental in fact. If you ask a question that is vague and can be answered with a simple definition, then don’t get bent out of shape if someone throws a dictionary definition at you and leaves it alone. If you are interested in debate, you have to ask a question that can have at a minimum two possible answers (or none).

Disclaimer 3: I am going to snip the ever-loving snot out of your posts. If you feel that something I have cut out is integral to the reply, let me know and I will edit it back in (assuming there is room).

Disclaimer 4: Be prepared for quite a few 10k posts. Read what you want, ignore what you don’t. But for the love of all things good and kind, shut up if you are just going to say something about the length of the posts. There is enough off-topic drivel in here without a dozen more tl;drs and [10char]s. If you do take the time to read the entire post, kudos to you. The possibly new perspective you will have gained may or may not give you a broader view of the world.

And finally, everyone relax, take a deep breath, and realize that we are friends here. I have seen enough “go for the throat” posts to last me a lifetime. No one’s ego is at stake, there is no harm that can befall you, and no one, I repeat, no one, is out to get you…


WORLD PEACE IS IMPOSSIBLE

While grossly unlikely, world peace is possible. Actually, if you define peace as the absence of war, then its actually quite possible. Ending warfare is fairly simple, you just develop a means to make it unnecessary (if you have ever read the short story “To Serve Man” you will see one possible way). I think though, that by peace, you are referring to the absence of violence. There are at least three ways in which world peace is possible.

1. The removal (via drug-induction, surgery, or genetic alteration) the frontal lobe of every man woman and child on earth save a rare skilled and well-meaning few. This removal of our ability to act aggressively will end violent behavior as a whole. No anger, no violence, peace… yay

2. Reduce the world to a distinct and distant number of regions with populations well below 100. Human beings are social animals, but we thrive in small groups. Reduce the size of the groups, the need for violence vanishes. This method would require the “at discovery” euthanasia of aberrants of course.

3. Reduce the population of earth to zero.

I do not approve of any of these methods, so I guess I will just be happy with what we have and continue to strive for what peace I can. It may not be total, but even a little peace is better than none at all.


Define Loyalty, and expand on your thoughts of it.

Loyalty is the act of working in someone else’s best interest due to a common tie. I would like to add before getting any deeper that being loyal does not necessarily require sacrifice in all things. It also does not mean that when acting in someone else’s best interest, you cannot be acting in your own as well.

To be loyal requires that another’s interests are a priority (not necessarily top, just there). In the face of trial and tribulation, the loyal person continues to act in accords with the other’s interests in mind. In times of great fortune, this still applies. Unfortunately, loyalty is most often tested during hard times, and is therefore often only associated with such.

There is a limit to loyalty, and there should be. For instance, helping your friends when they are down on their luck is awesome, but if your friend actively brings this misfortune on themselves, then it may take the more loyal friend to allow them the opportunity to learn from their mistakes, but be there to comfort them after the fall.

There are two extremely vital components to loyalty. The first is forgiveness. A truly loyal person will allow slights to be erased clean (this does not mean letting people walk on you, it does mean that if the slanderer shows genuine remorse, then release the grudge). Of course there are limitations, but in all, to be loyal, you must be selectively forgetful. Second is commonality. You must share some bond with an individual or idea to show it loyalty. The bond can be as tenuous as you will allow, but if you do not believe in the person or thing, then loyalty cannot exist.

Loyalty to ideas and principles are a bit grander scale and require a special note. All the above replies (for instance, there are moments when my country and the government that runs it, makes terrible mistakes. As a loyal member of that country, so long as changes are made or remorse is shown, then that country retains my loyalty). In addition, to be considered loyal to an idea, one must practice those ideas in full. Partial loyalty to a set of ideas is simply insufficient and meaningless.


Sure, you can look up a definition, but the definition will tell you next to nothing except what some peoepl think loyalty is supposed to be, or was, or is meant to be.

So basically you are saying a dictionary is a place to go look at what people think something is, what something should be, or what something is meant to be? Got it :D


Btw, was anyone else in MCJROTC? Anyone remember ol JJ DID TIE BUCKLE? xD And the 11 and 7 traits and stuff. Whoooo better get out my ol booky there, I can just ask em in order and we can debate on those :) Spiffing off Takis question

Justice, Judgment, Dependability, Initiative, Decision-making, Tact, Integrity, Enthusiasm, Bearing, Unselfishness, Courage, Knowledge, Loyalty, Endurance

I can’t believe I still remember that. I find it so amusing that each U.S. military service has its own “values” acronym. See also:
Army - LDRSHIP: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honesty, Integrity, Personal Courage
Navy – HCC/LATAR: Honor, Courage, Commitment (Learn, Adopt, Think, Act, Reevaluate)
Air Force – ISE: Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence in All We Do


What is your definition of fair? And if anywhere, where do you feel fairness is found?

I’m going to ask a question first, then I will fully reply once its answered. Are we interested in “perceived fairness” or “justice.” They are separate and distinct and go in radically different directions.

I will say that both can be found in moderate doses. It is unfortunately rare in larger societies, but in smaller groups, it can be quite common.

I will comment on other’s arguments below…


So... Fairness--

On this, Fairness-- it does not exist.

That’s an extremely bold statement. Fairness as you have defined it below is fairly common actually in my experience.


All our lives, we are told, "Now be fair children." But think-- when in highschool-- or beyond, is anything ever fair?

You go to class. You actually did do your homework. You spent an hour on it, struggled, but got it done. You see someone across the classroom copying the answers from their friend. Someone comes by and accidentally tips your binder over and the paper is ripped. You take a zero. They get full credit. What's fair...?

And that was not an "exception" scenario-- it's happened often enough it's fairly common, at least, for me.

That is a whole lot of dropped binders, you should be more careful...

Here we see what is referred to as anecdotal evidence. I will personally use some of my own anecdotal evidence to counter. I worked hard in school, did my homework, participated in extracurriculars, and because of it all did very well. My very good friend whom I grew up with did not put in as much effort, screwed off a lot, and in general did very poorly in school. I find that the people I speak with who have finished their degree tend to be harder working, more dedicated types. Those who fail or don’t finish their degrees tend to be the kind caught copying in the back of class. If the world of acadamia was as wrought with the good students failing while the bad kids excelled as you have implied, I think it would be a very different world we live in.

Make no mistake, there are examples of great people getting dumped on and complete losers owning Microsoft. But I would not say that it is an always the case scenario.

Now, what I want everyone to take away from this is that no matter how outrageous the claim, anecdotal evidence cannot be directly refuted. You were not there and did not experience those experiences. That said, using anecdotal evidence is fine for supporting your more valid (in the critical thinking sense) arguments.

To add more to the actual topic, I will say that high school is hardly a good place get the experience necessary to judge the rest of humanity. Trust me on this one.


You and your sibling are sitting at the table, and there is only one piece of pizza left. You both glare and your hand shoots out, grabs it and pulls it back onto your plate. They don't say anything because whining is discouraged. Was that fair for them? No.

Sharing the last piece of pizza? Well that's all fine and dandy, but if you get down to it, that piece of pizza was inexorably not split into equal pieces.

This is a good example of “perceived fairness.” Depending on the OP of the subject, I may go into this more later, but for now, understand that sometimes it doesn’t matter if things are exactly equal so long as both feel like they were “treated” fairly. In your example above, it would have been equally fair to:
1. Share the piece by cutting it in half or alternating on taking bites
2. Ask the person if it is ok if you take the last piece
3. Enjoy an equal contest to compete for the last piece (good examples might be a thumb war or rock, paper, scissors)


I want to date someone. it's not fair to his current girlfriend that I'd like to date him-- however, is it fair to me that she treats him and me like crap, and gets away with it? Where's the justice in that? Say I get the guy in the end-- forevermore afterwords, I shall have a crazy, psychotic girl after my blood because I "took" him from her. The fairness? One could say it's fair because she drove all her friends away

And here we get into “justice,” which is another possible meaning of fair. In the above case, justice does not enter at all, but all the same.

In respect to perceived fairness, it is not only common, but practically universal that what one person believes to be fair is not what another person perceives to be fair.


I say that's bullcrap. It's called revenge/vengeance. However you'd like to look at it.

Revenge is a perfectly valid element of “justice”


We, as humans, aside from the previously established statement that we are selfish creatures by nature, are also motivated to goal down the road-- that will benefit us. Whether it is getting that last piece of pizza or liberating an enslaved race, it's to our benefit-- You may in all intentions say that, "Oh, yes, I do it because they SHOULD not be enslaved." Well, okay, maybe you do. But in the back of your mind, there's also a motivation to benefit you.

Unfortunately, since I disagree with the premise (all humans are selfish), I am unable to agree with your conclusion in this case

[Lordlymight]

The newest opened topic--

Charity.

Now, I know people honestly think that they do charity for those that cannot help themselves. But, as stated, "charity" or "community service" is also required by just about every single high-school to graduate. Therefore, there is an underlying motive to participate in such activities.

While I will not say that there are none who do it for the joy of helping, for there are those that do-- I will say that many do so for more, selfish, personal motives.

Now, when I say selfish, I stress that I don't mean it in the sense of, "MINE. GIVE ME NOW." I mean selfish in the sense that as humans, we look to our desires and situations to further our own goals, or seek how to accomplish them.

So, I believe that there are people who do acts of charity for the sake of charity--
But I also believe a majority do so because it is required.

Your conclusion unfortunately includes an antithesis of your fairness conclusion. Was this an intentional retraction? To be more precise, do you believe that every human is selfish or no?


ok here's a new topic...is doing charity always an unselfish act?
you might think im crazy but i've seen some people do charity just so that they can have a better image. Im in highschool and I can tell that most of my friends (and quite ashamed to say, but even I) do charity and community service because that is what we need (its in our diploma course...) in order to get into a good university. So basically my classmates and I are just doing community service NOT for the community but for ourselves.

Well the question as it is asked is pretty easy. You have given evidence already that no, not all charity is unselfish. But that said, I do believe very strongly that there are people out there that truly do charity for the sake of doing charity and helping others.


Yes, I believe some rare people actually do charity work unselfishly. Of course I couldn't be sure because I can't see inside their mind. What I would like to know is, does it really matter if they do good deeds selfishly as long as they get it done?

Ah, now we get to some meaty stuff. We can pull this all the way back to the good versus evil debate. In this case, the intent of the act can define it as either good or selfish (and possibly, though rarely evil). But the deed itself is done and someone benefits. In my ever so humble opinion, this is a good thing. It does not reflect at all on the individual, but it does help, and that is important. One of the reasons I think community service sentencing for criminals is awesome.


Fairness doesnt exist because humans are naturally selfish.

Simple as that :D Refer to my post earlier about selfishness being part of human nature.

Yep, selfishness is human nature. Does not mean it cannot be overcome just like so many other undesirable human traits.


Youll learn in any Psychology class that charity is also a selfish act. "ihavelegs" youre not the only selfish and calculating one. Were all selfish, and Im quite calculating. My psychology teacher once told us that you can NEVER do charity as an unselfish act. Why? Because if you put your name on it, say a check, for 50k$ to a place, they know its from you. They thank you for it. They spread the word about you. Thus: betters your image. It makes you seem better than you are, and this, my friend, is a selfish act.

But what about NOT putting your name on it? She explained to me how even doing this is selfish as well.

When you do something you think is good, your body floods itself with good hormones and proteins that say "feel good!", therefore when you do something you think is good, you feel good about it. Who wouldnt want to feel good? Your mind then connects doing something good with a god feeling, and you will do these things simply because you feel good about it. And that is being selfish.

Not only do I vehemently disagree with your psych instructor, but the whole endorphin thing is going to need a little more backing up. If being good felt so awesome, then why is it so rare to see people doing good things. Also, we are assuming that feeling good about yourself is the cause of doing good things. It is my opinion that the effect of feeling good is a side-effect to the good deed.

I see some pretty amazing things in my line of work, and some pretty hideous things. My logical mind tells me that there is a balance. In all things scientific, a lack of equilibrium leads to a chaotic (and often violent) end. I have no reason to believe that just because sociology cannot be studied as thoroughly, that it would be any different.


Holding the door open for someone, is the basic of examples. You remember, back in your mind, how it makes you happy to have the door held open for you, so your mind links either "hold the door open for others" with a good feeling, or "slam the damn door in their face". Depends on how much of a horses rear you are, how bad the experience, and how many times others have held the door open for you, in spite of how many times its been slammed shut.

Who told the very first person to ever hold a door open for someone to hold that door? They had no “good feeling” to base their actions off of. I hold doors for people all the time, so much in fact I do it without thinking. On the rare occasion someone acknowledges it, I don’t get an awesome high.

Let’s put it this way. A doctor finishes their degree. They currently owe about $300k in student loans, have spent the last 8+ years studying their tails off, and have a huge ladder to climb to get out of the hole they are in. Explain to me why these guys suddenly head off to the Congo to provide medical care to the locals in exchange for next to nothing. So they can have a tiny portion of their loans forgiven? Can’t see it, since the x years spent in exile could have been spent earning three times or more than what was forgiven. Is it for some benefit back home? No, most times their efforts go completely unnoticed back home. Is it for some notion that it will serve their resume some way? I doubt it considering how easy it is to open your own practice. Is it for some incredible natural high? Unlikely, considering the squalid conditions, crazy perils, and constant harassment from local politicos and foreign military.


i don't know if you can debate on this. I was over my friend's house last night and we ordered a lot of food, expensive food.

So for the topic: Why would you pay $50 extra while you can pay $20 and fill up your stomach? All variety of food digest correlatively.

It’s a matter of taste and lifestyle. If you make $10 an hour, your idea of good food is going to change from if you make $20. Not all quality is based on price though. For instance, the best spaghetti in the world is only going to cost about $10 more than Olive Garden. Pasta is a bad example though. Pasta is cheap to make and therefore cheap to buy. You can’t really have “gourmet” pasta (though when you start getting into toppings and such, that changes dramatically).

That said, I will gladly pay $40 for a good steak than $40 for four not so good steaks. In this case, I am paying for tenderness, precision, and balanced seasoning. The enjoyment of savoring every bite has intimate value, and can be quite memorable (even now, while I type this I can remember really great steaks I have had in the past). Food is pleasurable, just like many other survival things can be. Sometimes we pay a little extra to have that pleasure heightened.


(I`m not attacking capitalism, let`s not get into a debate about this, and if you do, I`m not posting).

I’m curious why you would be against debating capitalism. It’s a perfectly valid topic…


But, my friend... I don`t like veggies :)

Heathen…!!


How many times should a Fiesta user be able to pleed his or her case before they are banned for good? I think the good ole three strike rule is in order but i dont think everyone else will agree.

Fiesta is not an inalienable human right. Therefore, I’m perfectly ok with someone getting nailed to the wall for blatant breaches of the rules. I think that with some of the rather ludicrous decisions that are commonly made by the staff that there should be an appeal process to argue why your actions did not break the rules. But if you are caught actually breaking the rules, then banhammer…


I know......but lets not compare this to the rules of the real world...but for the in-game experience. Comparing a offense in Fiesta to "murder" doesnt truely make since in the fact that the Fiesta User doesn't take anyones life. He or she just may have offend ppl in such however, i believe ppl should make friends with the block button before going to such drastic measure or by ignoring the person. Unless they are ksin you or attacking you in a non-war zone while you are trainning.....Ah! I miss Goldey so much right now.... I remember the time my guildmaster and i teamed up to kill "RealKiller" aka the bored lvl 70 something mage back in last May that was funny....she couldn't believe how fast a lvl 58 cleric and my lvl 54 fighter (with upgraded axe) could take down her hp so quickly

This game is in the real world. The people at the keyboards are real people. No one may die, but there is property at stake.


Ah but this game was made from teh real world, so it still applies. Someone buying sparkcash with a credit card that doesnt have the money to back up their purchases, is still stealing in the real world. If you dont want to compare it to the real world, then youre saying this person who buys 500$ in spark cash, yet only has 5$ in their IRL account, should be allowed to do whatever they want as they wait for a "court" type ban thing, which.. oddly enough.. you get the idea from.. the real world.
Besides, you purchase spark cash with irl money. :) They are linked, you cant un-link game world with real world. Because the game world is based within the real world.
And let me rephrase my example.. Murder cannot be done in Fiesta.. but say the EQUIVELANT to murder irl, in fiesta is say.. buying gold form 3rd party sites (dont do it). Its a "severe" offense.
Placing a "court" system in Fiesta would only allow the rule-breakers to have a 1-10 day padding time to CONTINUE their rampage, rather than being stopped immediately.

I agree. The only manner of defense the company has from more malicious abuses is instant ban.


NO.No.no. Hear me out dude...."stealing may attach this world to the real world". But murder is murder and that is in real life, that is the end of someones existance on this earth. They are gone for good and can't be revived unlike the game. You may break a rule or two in this game but it will never be consider a equal contender of murder in rl.......I hope this is clear enough for you to understand. Cas to be truthful i kinda confused myself in the process of writing this thread.:)

I see your point in that but some innocent ppl get banned just because a group of ppl have a problem with them and will go to great links to see the person account is banned. And dont tell me that they need screen shot proof because there is such a thing known as "photoshop". Thus, I believe the person convicted as in rl should be able to pleed their case before the Fiesta game moniters before being banished completely dont you agree?

As previously mentioned, I do believe there should be an appeals process. That said, I also believe that prior to that appeal, you be banned until your appeal is complete (and if found to be free from blame, that time lost in items be compensated or renewed)

[Lordlymight]

I'd just like to point a couple things:

1. This is a serious debate thread. Meaning, if someone doesn't get your idea--let it be. We're not getting angry at eachother, we're agreeing to disagree.

Indeed. Having had the fortune (or misfortune, depending on your viewpoint) to read these in order and in lump, I have noticed that many are posting without thinking. Or posting with their egos attached. Its not universal, but come on guys. It’s the internet, no one “wins”


3. This is a serious debate thread. Meaning, use serious arguments.

I don’t know if I would go this far. Good arguments, yes, but sometimes a little comic relief can go a long way to relieve tension. If you want to add a comic edge to either your topic or response, go ahead in my opinion, just make sure you have something of value to add with your comment.


Next argument idea:
A couple years ago some award shows were banned because screenwriters wanted more money, do you think this is reasonable? Do you think the writer's should make more than the director? Or the actors and actresses?

The value of something is directly equal to how much someone is willing to pay for it. As a writer, I think that the act of creating an original work from your imagination (or a seed idea) is a noble and powerful thing. I think that it should be compensated commensurate with the effort involved. That said, I have heard of authors spending years to get their books published because it wasn’t what someone wanted to buy. In the screen industry, it is very simple. “I will sell you this work for this much. I will buy your work for only this much. Uhhh, dern, fine.”

What I do hate to see is when a writer blows up and the company for whom he or she works feels it is “unfair” to them to not increase the writer’s pay. Now it’s the writer’s turn to have the head of the negotiation.


The writers should get what they put in. If they wrote crap, but the directors/actors/actresses/whoeverelse made it look good, then no, they shouldn't.

Who makes that determination?


Lol 1) I had to repeat myself more than a few times. I dont like that. If youre gonna come "debate", then at least attempt to understand.

Debate is about showing your opinion or analyzing something and backing it up, understanding the others side, but providing information that makes yours more. That person didnt even bother reading my post, or try to understand it. Besides.. proper grammar please.

And it wasnt even a serious topic. I totally pwnd it in my first reply.

Technically seeing that the writers just write it up, while directors do so much more, and actors more as well, I dont think the writers should get loads. Personally tho, I have no love for awards shows, so bleh :P

My two cents

Too much ego brought to the table by both sides. It’s been said before, it’s the internet, no one “wins.” You have either brought someone something meaningful, or you have not. You cannot force it. That just closes their mind. It’s like hitting a brick wall with a tennis ball. You can throw it harder and harder, but the only thing you are going to get is a mangled tennis ball, a sore arm, and a perfectly content brick wall.


Using phrases like that one ruin the rest of the things you say, Riko...
If you pwn someone, you beat him. Here nobody beats anyone

He has a point and technically beat me to what I would have (and have restated already) said.


Next Topic: I think most of you will know that Square Enix announced that the next Final Fantasies would be released on XBOX as well as the PS3. Do you think it's right for SE--after 20 years of loyalty to PS3--to begin a partnership in regards to the FF franchise with XBOX?

I have seen a lot of this. I think it entirely unfair for anyone to “close” a topic if there are others who would still like to comment. Let’s please get out of this practice…

Now to the topic. In response, I will ask you this question. Is it fair to players of the XBOX that FF is only available on a system they do not own? This being business, its hard to make a fairness statement, since the companies have been raping consumers since the days of Adam Smith, but if Microsoft pays more for the contract that Sony, is it fair to the company to not take the better offer?


Can we please not debate on trivial things like this?

You will always find peopel who prefer PS3 over Xbox, or XBox over Wii, or Wii over PS3. Honestly... Deal with it. This is a DEBATE THREAD.

Kaiten, this is a bit overboard, even for you. This topic is a helluva a lot better than many of the others posted. It asks a distinct question, provides viable alternative answers to be debated, and was worded in a way that was (mostly) neutral. In fact, since the topic is highly relevant to gamers, it has a much greater chance of generating some good responses.

This is not my thread. I am not a moderator or CL. I have absolutely no power here whatsoever. I can’t tell you what to do. What I can do is maybe make some requests, provide some consequences within my control, be courteous, and enjoy the online company of my friends. What’s everyone say to us all trying that out for a little while?


I hate to sound like your mother or anything but PLEASE, if you're going to post here, make it something worthwhile. one sentence replies are not the idea behind this debate thread, it's debating and introducing ideas-- if you have something you want to talk about, please think it out, write it down and try to be somewhat grammatically (and spelling) correct so others may read, comprehend your side and argue either against or for.

I would like to add that a topic need not be earth-shattering. Don’t be intimidated from posting something just because you don’t think it is serious enough. Make it logically arguable (it must have at least two possible sides or it is a statement, not a debate topic) and take the few seconds to put some thought into it. Try to make it neutral, but again, so long is there is an alternate position to your own, it’s valid.


Mysty, if you reserve a post for debate, please simply state, "Reserved for debate" and put it together. Stating you didn't want to read a post shows you are not considering any other's arguments, and I encourage you to do so.

Both of these are crazy annoying. Taki is dead on. Post or don’t and be done with it. And reading an entire thread or post is PARAMOUNT to understanding and replying to it. Don’t want to read it all, don’t reply. Only want to reply to a small part, make sure you have read the whole thing to make sure that there has been nothing else about that small part.

This is seriously my biggest pet pieve. read, Read, READ the forsaken post…

[Lordlymight]

"What is innocence and which is its value"
Myself, being a "The Catcher in the rye" and a "Lord of the flies" lover, I`m very interested on the subject... let`s see what you have to say

Free from evil or guilt. That’s the book answer and one I take very much to heart. I think it highly relevant considering our earlier topic of good vs evil. I would like to direct your attention to the word “or.” This means that an innocent can either be free from guilt, or free from evil. For instance, a young boy who steps on an anthill unawares has just destroyed the lives of dozens of bugs. Would you say his innocence is lost because he has killed?

This is a defining characteristic for the “pleads insanity” aspect of the American justice system. Someone incapable of knowing right from wrong cannot feel guilt, and is therefore “not guilty.”

But we have broached the main underlying subject here.

The ability to distinguish between right and wrong

So it is here that we can get into the free from evil aspect of the topic. If I know right from wrong, even in the most basic sense, then even if I kill guilt-free (take your common run-of-the-mill sociopath), you have lost your innocence.

So, to sum up. You lose your innocence the minute you are fully capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong. It is at that point where you begin to look back at your life and feel guilt for the wrongs you have committed (guilty), or not (evil).


What is innocence? Is there really a debate over that? I guess I'll just talk about Lord of the Flies and the innocence prevalent in that.

This was actually one of the “core” metaphysical debates of the Classical age. Some great work on the subject out there if it has sparked your curiosity. I recommend John Perry for some interesting modern reading on the subject.


Ako didn't like Lord of the Flies >.>

As for the innocence topic, my opinion is close to the same as my view on the "Good Vs Evil" debate; no person is purely innocent.

Everybody in their life does something to taint their innocence. In doesn't have to be something big, but because pure means 100%, it still taints a person's innocence.

However, despite this, depending on what a person does in their life, they can be given the title "innocent."

For example, an average person who hasn't done any big, wrong things in their lives was murdered, that person would be called an innocent victim, as they should, because they did not deserve that happening.

However, if a man who murdered ten people, and was proven guilty and sentenced to death, after he was killed, no one would say he was an innocent person (though, there would be those saying that person didn't deserve death, which that in itself is another debate). Because he murdered those people, he wouldn't be an innocent victim of anything.

So, just like I said in the "Good Vs. Evil" topic, I don't believe anyone is truely pure innocent, however, the things they do in their life can grant them the title of innocent or not.

Very well put. You bring into light some good points on some of the less definitive uses of the word. I especially appreciate you bringing the idea of “innocent victim.” In this case, I would say that innocent would mean “without fault or cause” In other words, the individual was victimized through no action of their own. Nicely done.


Innocence
How lovely a concept, yet so dangerous a state. Innocence is a concept I hae explored many a time, and wonder where I lost it-- the initial phase--

The innocence of a child, in it's mischievous manner, yet accepting trust. Believing everything they're told-- until they learn... and here, I believe, is where it's lost.

That first time you realize Santa doesn't exist--
That first time a friend lies to you--
That first time your pet dies--
That first time you realize, man can commit evil acts.

Knowledge is beyond wonderful, but it can hurt oh so much. I have stated few times on how I have far too much time to think, and in these periods of time, I find myself thinking and thinking until I come upon a realization I can't quite fully voice (and sometimes I can).

But when you realize you yourself, are no longer innocent, you wish for it back, the sweet, blissful ignorance. A song comes to mind, "Fields of Innocence" by Evanescence.

I believe there are phases of innocence as well-- ie: knowing Santa does not exist, well, it' snot realizing you yourself can do something bad, but it's a small point where you loose a bit of it. Then when you lie for the first time, or when a friend lies to you. You find out that truth isn't always truth.

Then-- when you learn what murder is. You didn't know that existed, until you watched the news, seen it happen, or a family member dies. You suddenly find, death exists. Death is an eventuality for everyone of the mortal world. It's what will come. But when you first find out it exists? Sad day indeed.

And then it goes on-- degrees slowly stripped away until you wonder what other horrors await. I've found myself crying sometimes-- realizing that I've done something horrible, or that I'm really not that innocent.

Another great post. Here, the idea of innocence and its connection to worldly knowledge is shown very clearly. Knowledge is power, but with that knowledge comes an understanding of self that was completely unrealized before hand. Nicely done.


That no-one is so innocent to be exempt.

Awesome line, and very true…


Guys you gotta be careful using other terms with Innocence. Theres technically no other term that can explain exactly Innocence.

Basically, to me, its the complete not-knowing of something in all its aspects, particularly the way it works/reasoning. Where as Ignorant is simply not knowing because youve never heard of it / seen it before, Innocence has to do with the reasoning.

Agreed, to know requires both the acquisition of the knowledge and the processing of the information into something discernable… You guys are doing really well with this topic, sweet…


In my post, I made the argument that being naive and innocent were different, and a very thin line separated the two. I think what you've explained about the boy not knowing is him being naive or ignorant.

Innocence is more what Takimi said. The more you know about something, the less innocent you become. This is why what Takimi said about young children being more innocent is deemed true.

In my opinion, they are both correct. Innocence requires a bit of naiveté as you previously explained, but likewise it requires a degree of ignorance as well.

But it does beg the question of innocence being absolute or is it instead particular. For instance, can you be innocent about some things and not innocent about others. I don’t believe you can. You are either all innocent or all not, but I could see where the question could be raised.


Innocence is a term used to indicate a state of moral purity or general lack of guilt, with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing.

Innocence can also refer to a state of unknowing, where one's experience is lesser, in either a relative view to social peers, or by an absolute comparison to a more common normative scale.

You are the first to bring up the idea of a relative experience. I think though, in this case, the idea of innocence from a relative scale (for example an individual who has not had sex surrounded by peers who have experienced that activity would be considered innocent in the eyes of those involved) is more subjective. It would be dependant on the specifics of the situation rather than a broad underlying ideal.


The thought crosses everyone`s mind when reading this thread: "Whoa, I`ll paste a dictionary entry and I`m gonna be TEH L33TEST" but we have a rule against them in these kinds of debates: We`re talking about the concept of the word (Or the concept itself) and what it encases, for each of us, in our opinions.

However, I do notice you want to participate, so why not elaborate an answer with your own views on the matter? ^^

Defining your terms is pretty important, and sometimes defining your terms is really all that is needed.

[Takimi]

Lo and Neo.. just.. lo... -remembers yesterday- Just ... LOL...


One would say they shouldn't have made those posts because there were already several others about not posting like that. And may I add, Neo, you didn't reply on any topic in here. Only posted to criticize the thread master. Besides, since OMG everyone reads 100% of the posts, all three of yall shouldnt have posted non-topic sustaining things. :P I play that game too :3


1) He wasn't criticizing-- I explained to him that I warned Doc too, just not in public. I hold no favoritism.

2) Those posts are made to ask the spammers to please stop. You posted as well asking people to stop spamming, if I recall correctly.
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=26

3) Mentioning yesterday has no effect here. Please do not bring drama to this thread. Resolve it between the two of you, not the two of you and forums.

4) Your statement that Neo has not replied to any topic in here is incorrect.

ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=3
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=7
(here he contributed a topic)
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=13
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=16
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=21
ie: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117330&page=25
(yet another topic he contributed to)


Have I made my point? Please be respectful to other posters. Yes, we have ALL made posts that were more conversational than debate. You cannot cry "hypocrites" at us and pretend the blame does not fall on you.


And Lordly, omg, welcome back-- I missed your posts and tearing up arguments =D

[DF001]

off-topic: taki i don't get your -rep :s

on-topic: so what are we discussing now?

[RikoRain]

I am NOT going to quote Lordly and weed through his monster 1 page of posts (I swear, if it were all on one page, it would roll onto a second), youre just gonna have to deal with reading from context, or scroll back to read his post. I WILL refer to which one I replied to however. Most of them, are, replies to Lordly's replies on my things.

All of these are replies to Lordly replying to people.

RikoRain - Definition

Yes, in fact. Where do you think the dictionary makers get their definition of the word? From the real world, but they cant put in everyones definition of the word, so they either think up a general definition, or the most common one. Think about the word "gay". For the longest time in the dictionary it said "Happy" because at the time, most of society took that word as another one for Happy. NOW it means a completely different thing, so the definition has expanded.

Definitions are overrated anyway. I could look up 10 word sin a dictionary, and I bet over half of them I would disagree with the definition.

RikoRain - MCJROTC

Lordly, I believe Decision-making is wrong xD Its prolly a word for just that but a diff one -goes off to find my book- Ahhhh here they are.
Judgment, Justice, Decisiveness, Integrity, Dependability, Tact, Initiative, Endurance, Bearing, Unselfishness, Courage, Knowledge, Loyalty, and Enthusiasm. :) are 14 leadership traits.

RikoRain - Selfishness and Psych class

You know more than anyone else that people are different, therefore these endorphins and good hormones effect people differently. Sometimes for a highly emotional person, a very small dose will do the trick. Sometimes it takes larger actions.

RikoRain - Holding the door..

The very first person to hold the door open for another person MOST LIKELY had the door slammed in their face, was a very good-natured person, and so began holding the door open for people.
Either that or someone simply asked "hey my hands are full hold the door for me?" and thus started the chain.

Of course you could also date it way back to caveman periods. I have no doubt that if they had a flap over their cave, that sometimes they held the flap open for others. Probably then first started off as a "oh lookit all the food he has! He cant open the flap!! HURRY THE FOOOOOD OPEN THE FLAP FOR HIM"

143snake - Food

BLASPHEMY!!!! There is no possibly Italian or Italian-like food better than Olive Garden!!!! Lies! Lies! Your taste buds must be effed up!

ShonenHero - Veggies

I like veggies :) <3 Broccoli (mwahahahah all you broccoli-haters cringe and cower in the corners!!!)

RikoRain - Too lazy to think of a topic.. find it

Lordly, you said yourself... COMIC RELIEF HERE CAN BE NICE.
Read my context, if you honestly think that was a 100% serious post.. then.. check your PMs.

Which bring sup the topic of yet another thing. The two of you find "pwn" as a phrase that means "totally completely dominating, winning completely and utterly". To me it means "Winning with enough to have your statement flawless near flawless, or flawless in your eyes, most likely having to repeat it more than once the same way or slightly different". Long definition, but I think we've proved here everyone has diff definitions of words. And plus, "pwnd" is a relatively new word, over-used as well. Hence why I used it.
=.=
Hypocrites.. you cant come here, bring comedy in, then complain when others try for some comedy. Thats not right.

RikoRain - Trifles

Lordly, read again.
Youll see I posted in fact to the topic.
And I believe somewhere in there I added some sort of Apology. If not, I can go edit it if you like. And in case you didnt know, since he brought up such a subject with such gaming knowledge, its common sense to assume he is a gamer of some sort, and therefore has gaming knowledge. It was only WIDELY known about the whole Xbox/Sony thing, and make moving to Xbox.

Honestly, youre griping about me taking out things on others.. when it seems like youre just mad at a few select of us -COUGH- for reasons we have no control over.
Ill repeat again: Taki is the thread master of this thread. And really, unless she tells me something is not allowed in her thread, then I will post to my hearts desire. I understand you may not like a lot of what I say, but either debate HONESTLY with me (and stop nitpicking at my diction; not all of us are nifty lil people like you), or ignore my posts. I got a lt of respect for you Lordly, but you should be forewarned I DO NOT like people nitpicking over small meaningless things (like using one word for another just cus it sounds prettier or nicer. I am not a "soften it up for people" person) when they are only just now jumping back into it. Or dont connect the later posts to the first ones. It irks me =.=

And I will probably regret saying that later, but I do NOT edit my posts unless either the OP asks me to, or one of the Outspark staff does, OR if for some reason I have had a flame-type or something argument with someone, we solved it, and both agreed to edit out the posts for the other peoples sake.

And Lordly, you quoted my first post on the XBox/Sony thing, but you did NOT quote my second one. :| Makes me think you criticized my first one just to criticize me and ignored my second one. D;

Takimi - Innocence

See, reading her post, I would agree with her because most of her examples are stating the UNDERSTANDING of things. A kid may come to you and say "Santa does not exist", but then wait for Santa that Christmas. He has known the fact, but he does not UNDERSTAND it.
I agree with Taki totally. :)

Another good example Ill add is the little kid who "looses" a pet. The parent say he is "lost" or "gone to a better place", but the kid does not connect it with "death". He still envisions the pet alive and happy in his head.. until he understands what death really is, and the phrases we use to express it. Then, after UNDERSTANDING it, hes lost that innocence.
(How I didnt see her post in the first place baffles me. Musta been on the previous page or something <~ Wont scroll back past a certain point). Just too much words if I keep scrolling back.

irroc29 and RikoRain - Naive and Innocence

Ill use another example of definitions varying.
To me, NAIVE is a word meaning more Stubborn. Naive to me is the stubborn REFUSAL to understand something, but not aggressively. This would be like you telling a kid his dog has gone to a better place, and then telling him his dog is no longer alive. Him replying "No" and going off to play without thinking about it to me is Naive. He has plainly refused to understand the situation, though he may know the outlying facts. And we all know how stubborn lil kids can be.
That is why I replied back that way.

ShonenHero - T3h 1337est

Yeah, but everyone enjoys examples. I, for one, am an example type person. You use an example, I immediately got it. Just tell it to me tho? I may or may not understand, and even if I do understand (more likely), I will most likely not understand it as the way you meant to have it go across.

[RikoRain]

1) He wasn't criticizing-- I explained to him that I warned Doc too, just not in public. I hold no favoritism.
Have I made my point? Please be respectful to other posters. Yes, we have ALL made posts that were more conversational than debate. You cannot cry "hypocrites" at us and pretend the blame does not fall on you.


And Lordly, omg, welcome back-- I missed your posts and tearing up arguments =D




First: Do you realize what hell in text tags were in your post? Omg I quoted it and was like.. sheesh.. where is the text..? And I tried to delete the links and stuff, but it seems I deleted the MAJORITY of it instead =.=

Anyway, this was sort of a personal thing to Neo. In another thread he criticized me for giving my two cents on a topic, then him and another proceeded to yell at me for not reading 100% for all the posts, which they claimed EVERYONE read 100% of all posts.
I should bring that argument here, as we all know: NO ONE reads absolutely 100% of all the posts.

Ill admit tho, I probably should have PMed him for it or something. I could say more, I want to say more, but I wont :x It will end in arguing. And not the debate kind.

As well, I still stand by my "hypocrite" saying, but Ill say looking back I did the same thing. Asked people not to "spam" then didnt contribute to any topic myself.

And if you want an apology, youre SOL, thats as close as youre getting. :P


on-topic: so what are we discussing now?

Mmm I got a basic topic, should require use of a lot of examples or facts.

Cats verses Dogs.
Which pet is "better" in your opinion? Provide more than 3 statements please, and back each statement up with either facts or examples or personal experiences. Doesnt really matter as long as each statement is backed up SOMEHOW

I am going to only provide my basic statement, as I more want to agree/disagree with OTHERS than explain mine. I will more than likely end up spoofing mine off theirs more.


Personally, I find Cats better than dogs.
Why?

Dogs stink far more than cats (in my opinion).
You give a dog a bath and MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN aaaaaaaaaah bleh, I think you get my point. My cats, on the other hand, even when they are stinky lil devils, giving them a bath wont stink. Besides, they keep themselves cleaner naturally than dogs.

"Waste"
Cats go in a litter box, or can be trained to use the toilet. Both can be indoor activities.
Dogs have to be taken outside. Where they will mot likely gain a few flea friends, bring them into the home, and which may end up breeding elsewhere. I know this, I had a dog with a few cats once, and he would bring the fleas in, which would go to the cats, multiply, and infest the couch, chairs, carpet, beds, blankets.. EVERYTHING. There was no way to get rid of them then.

The "neediness"
Cats can be very independent creatures. Even if they rely on you fr food, water, and waste area, they can be very independent creatures otherwise, while also being social. They dont need you 24/7/365.
Dog on the other hand, are so attention-needy I cant personally stand them. They bark for attention (which to my ears is much harsher than a meow), they slobber on you for attention, etc etc.

Size Matters
Cats are generally all one size. You can have small ones, big ones, but compared to dogs, cats are generally around a certain size.
Dogs can be huge. You can have dogs larger than a human. No thank you. Personally I like my fluffy lil bundles of joy. I understand there can be "toy" dogs or "small" dogs, but this is where my above statements are more weighing.

[Lordlymight]

I am NOT going to quote Lordly and weed through his monster 1 page of posts (I swear, if it were all on one page, it would roll onto a second), youre just gonna have to deal with reading from context, or scroll back to read his post. I WILL refer to which one I replied to however. Most of them, are, replies to Lordly's replies on my things.

Smart move, I didn’t even want to have to reread all my posts before to look for grammar and spelling errors. I really should learn to moderate. :o


RikoRain - Definition

Yes, in fact. Where do you think the dictionary makers get their definition of the word? From the real world, but they cant put in everyones definition of the word, so they either think up a general definition, or the most common one. Think about the word "gay". For the longest time in the dictionary it said "Happy" because at the time, most of society took that word as another one for Happy. NOW it means a completely different thing, so the definition has expanded.

Definitions are overrated anyway. I could look up 10 word sin a dictionary, and I bet over half of them I would disagree with the definition.

I may think the definition of blue is actually yellow, but it doesn’t make it so. While I agree that concepts can be contested, a word is a word. If you say Innocent, every educated person has a general idea what you are talking about. The debate is in the particulars. Therefore, jumping off from a dictionary definition is not only valid, but desirable. And as I said before, if the dictionary definition is sufficient from your point of view, then particulars may not be necessary at all. Of course, someone can counter with an alternative dictionary definition, and once again debate can happen over which definition is more correct, but the dictionary is still the place to begin.


RikoRain - MCJROTC

Lordly, I believe Decision-making is wrong xD Its prolly a word for just that but a diff one -goes off to find my book- Ahhhh here they are.
Judgment, Justice, Decisiveness, Integrity, Dependability, Tact, Initiative, Endurance, Bearing, Unselfishness, Courage, Knowledge, Loyalty, and Enthusiasm. :) are 14 leadership traits.

Got it… been awhile. After looking at it for awhile, I think the Navy one is wrong too. Maybe look it up later, probably won’t hehehe.


RikoRain - Selfishness and Psych class

You know more than anyone else that people are different, therefore these endorphins and good hormones effect people differently. Sometimes for a highly emotional person, a very small dose will do the trick. Sometimes it takes larger actions.

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree on this point…


RikoRain - Holding the door..

The very first person to hold the door open for another person MOST LIKELY had the door slammed in their face, was a very good-natured person, and so began holding the door open for people.
Either that or someone simply asked "hey my hands are full hold the door for me?" and thus started the chain.

Of course you could also date it way back to caveman periods. I have no doubt that if they had a flap over their cave, that sometimes they held the flap open for others. Probably then first started off as a "oh lookit all the food he has! He cant open the flap!! HURRY THE FOOOOOD OPEN THE FLAP FOR HIM"

Perhaps I was too specific. Allow me to use something more broad. What compels others to do good when they are surrounded by a selfish populace if there is not something inherently good in them?


143snake - Food

BLASPHEMY!!!! There is no possibly Italian or Italian-like food better than Olive Garden!!!! Lies! Lies! Your taste buds must be effed up!

Olive Garden is the standard by which I judge all Americanized Italian food.


RikoRain - Too lazy to think of a topic.. find it

Lordly, you said yourself... COMIC RELIEF HERE CAN BE NICE.
Read my context, if you honestly think that was a 100% serious post.. then.. check your PMs.

Trust me, I read every word of all 126 posts that were made in my absence (for that matter, I have read every word of every post in this thread). Since that seems to have been insufficient to magic an understanding of your humor, perhaps I will go someplace and learn something. :|


Which bring sup the topic of yet another thing. The two of you find "pwn" as a phrase that means "totally completely dominating, winning completely and utterly". To me it means "Winning with enough to have your statement flawless near flawless, or flawless in your eyes, most likely having to repeat it more than once the same way or slightly different". Long definition, but I think we've proved here everyone has diff definitions of words. And plus, "pwnd" is a relatively new word, over-used as well. Hence why I used it.

No, the phrase pwn is used to show egotistical superiority. It is a garbage word that instantly raises my ire regardless of its context. In addition, based on previous replies and the amount of contest each has had, you can hardly say you have pwned anything at all.


Hypocrites.. you cant come here, bring comedy in, then complain when others try for some comedy. Thats not right.

Fair enough, I am finished with my reply… I have nothing further to say…

[DF001]

I prefer dogs over cats. Cats are always scartching me and they are kinda scary. Dogs are fun and cute, and you can walk them. The cats always look like they are going to bite me and I think if I remember, dog food is cheaper than cat food. ;o

[ILiKePieLoRDoFKNiVeS]

Who makes that determination?

Insert rest of post


In a later post, i said that this is also a flawed system that would never work, because of that.

[KireiYosei]

This thread seems to have gone off to a non-Fiesta related topic. I'm going to move this to Off Topic.

[RikoRain]

._. Another great topic lost in the depths of the "Off-topic" section, where now it will most likely be spammed of some sort ._. -le sigh-

And Lordly, what a fine example you have provided of different meanings for words. Pwn to you is "egotistical superiority" and obviously a more serious term.
To me its a comedic term. I have no friends, have had any friends, or know anyone that uses "pwn" as a word other than COMEDY. Therefore, knowing that you should understand quite fine.

DF001:

O.o Dog food cheaper than cat food? Seriously? I never payed attention to that. If I recall right, the premium cat food at the place where I buy mine, costs only 10.50$. I usually end up getting the one thats like.. 9.76$. And these are the big bags. (Small bags always cost more). I guess if you add in the 7$ industrial tub of cat litter I have to buy as well, it comes out more expensive.

._. I have cats scratch me, but none violently. Cats are cute and fluffy to me :3 Dog.. well.. Ive had a huge retriever dog attack me, or try to, and have literally been chased home on my bicycle from a small vicious yellow dog whose owner was an rtard and didnt chain it up properly. So I guess you can see why I would prefer cats over dogs in that sense. Plus the fact that I guess Im what people call a "cat lady". I will most likely be that one old lady on the block with 15+ cats, who also feeds the strays, etc, etc. I have NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, had any cat show any signs of violence or aggressiveness to me. This includes both indoor cats, outdoor cats, and strays. Even the cats at the pound deemed "vicious strays" who are not to even have people come remotely close to them, will growl and hiss at the handler, but purr for me.

._. And you can walk cats too. My oldest cat will let you put his collar on, leash on, and he will walk down the sidewalk with you (granted he wants to stop and eat grass or roll around), but he can be encouraged to continue walking.

[DF001]

DF001:

O.o Dog food cheaper than cat food? Seriously? I never payed attention to that. If I recall right, the premium cat food at the place where I buy mine, costs only 10.50$. I usually end up getting the one thats like.. 9.76$. And these are the big bags. (Small bags always cost more). I guess if you add in the 7$ industrial tub of cat litter I have to buy as well, it comes out more expensive.

._. I have cats scratch me, but none violently. Cats are cute and fluffy to me :3 Dog.. well.. Ive had a huge retriever dog attack me, or try to, and have literally been chased home on my bicycle from a small vicious yellow dog whose owner was an rtard and didnt chain it up properly. So I guess you can see why I would prefer cats over dogs in that sense. Plus the fact that I guess Im what people call a "cat lady". I will most likely be that one old lady on the block with 15+ cats, who also feeds the strays, etc, etc. I have NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, had any cat show any signs of violence or aggressiveness to me. This includes both indoor cats, outdoor cats, and strays. Even the cats at the pound deemed "vicious strays" who are not to even have people come remotely close to them, will growl and hiss at the handler, but purr for me.

._. And you can walk cats too. My oldest cat will let you put his collar on, leash on, and he will walk down the sidewalk with you (granted he wants to stop and eat grass or roll around), but he can be encouraged to continue walking.

Well yea you are right. I hate when I am walking and a dog barks at me like crazy and I am like ''O_O'' lol i yell because i get susprised...and yea i got dogs chasing me before...and i didnt have a bike like you >.<

[Dr_Feelgood]

Nothing is ever related to fiesta xD

[Lordlymight]

Gestapo strikes again...

Now I could definitely see it being moved to General Discussion, since that would have improved visibility and make it more available. But alas, I can't say as I'm surprised.

For professing such a grand idea as community, I see an awful lot of community-crushing decisions made on the day-to-day...

[Poisoned77]

I have been thinking about this for a while, I'm not sure if this is debatable, just a little nugget to mull over while you are daydreaming. When we think, we often interpret our thoughts as words, but do we really "speak" inside our brains? Are we really thinking in words, or is it just in ideas, colors, memories, or maybe emotions? Do these synaptic events in our brain get translated as words as our delicious appetite for the logical order of things tries to make sense of these thoughts and inner feelings run through our head?

What about people of other languages? When I think, I hear my inner voice in English, because that is the language that I speak. Do people of other language's also translate their thoughts into their language, or do our brains create a self-serving language. A translation of our thoughts that really isn't language at all, we just think it is language?

Some of you may be familiar with the autistic mathematical savant Kim Peek, who was used as a character basis for Raymond Babbitt in the movie Rain Man. In interviews, Peeks has been asked how he is able to perform such high level mathematical equations in his head in mere seconds. He has described that when he looks at the numbers, he sees different colors. Colors that represent numbers and solutions. If he can visualize that he can see colors, is it possible to see sounds, or hear sights? Are our memories recorded like words or text, like a document written and saved on a computer? Or do we really just remember what happened to our senses when the memory was recorded. Would it be possible, if one concentrated enough, to inject a new sight, smell, or taste into a memory and alter one's experience?

[DF001]

My native language isn't english but for some reason I always think in english.

[smileeloser101]

What about people of other languages? When I think, I hear my inner voice in English, because that is the language that I speak. Do people of other language's also translate their thoughts into their language, or do our brains create a self-serving language. A translation of our thoughts that really isn't language at all, we just think it is language?


I'm half Chinese and I'm bilingual (English and Chinese). I learned both languages at the same time because my mother spoke to me in Chinese and my father in English. Even though English is my dominant language, I still think in Chinese sometimes without realizing it right away. When I hear the Chinese language I don't usually translate it into English either, it just goes through my brain that way. As for a self-serving language, I feel there is one language that everyone in the world knows since we are all human. If we didn't all know the same language somewhere inside, we would never be able to communicate with one another.

[ILiKePieLoRDoFKNiVeS]

yes, how if that wasnt true then how could the pilgrims/english settlers have taught the natives a different language with absolutely no understanding of each others languages?

[UzumakiW]

I forgot this was moved into the Off-Topic section. I never check here, so I forgot to check here.

Anyway, in response to Poisoned77:

I will speak from my personal experience on this:

I do often think with words in my head, but at times, I also think with pictures. In fact, at this very moment, as I type this, I am speaking to myself in my head about what I am typing. I do a lot of the time, speak with words in my head, however, I have noticed that because I don't always think with words in my head, there are times where I have thoughts that I can not explain with words when I try to speak of it on a logical level. There are some things that are impossible for me to talk to people about because I can not explain them in words.

I've often thought about the things you are asking with your post. The one thing I think about the most, though, is that when I talk in my head, I am thinking that I can hear myself in my exact voice, or I can think of a song, and I think I can hear the actual song. I've always been fascinated by that. No sound is going through my ears, but if I think about a sound, I can hear it in my head.

[Poisoned77]

Interesting responses...

[lenore_lurks]

Can we please get this moved back? I can see it's kinda floundering... c'mon lil thread! YOU CAN DO IT! I have faith in you! *Gives thread a red bull* c'mon...


Well. Let's try and kick it with a new topic:

We should continue having the majority of our day-to-day products made in China/Taiwan, and exported out to us.

Agree? Disagree? Consider some implications: what does this do to the local economy, who benefits from this arrangement, is this a wholly safe practice, if you were in the position to change things, would you?

[Poisoned77]

Can we please get this moved back? I can see it's kinda floundering... c'mon lil thread! YOU CAN DO IT! I have faith in you! *Gives thread a red bull* c'mon...

If you wish the thread moved back, you will have to discuss that with the CL who originally moved it here.





Well. Let's try and kick it with a new topic:

We should continue having the majority of our day-to-day products made in China/Taiwan, and exported out to us.

Agree? Disagree? Consider some implications: what does this do to the local emonomy, who benefits from this arrangement, is this a wholly safe practice, if you were in the position to change things, would you?



I do not believe that anything could be done to change this without causing a serious negative impact on the global economy. Despite the ongoing problems with quality control, sweatshops, safety issues going on in Chinese and other Asian factories (which America's insatiable lust for cheap, mass-produced goods helped create, I don't think there will be very much that can be done to stop it.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I think over half of America's manufactured goods are imported from China. If America were to cut these imports and move production back to America, I don't believe our infrastructure could hold that responsibility. This trend of outsourcing for cheap labor, and subsequently cheap goods, has gone on for so long that we no longer have the manufacturing capacity to support the voracious need of the American people.

Also, if we moved these production lines back to the US, companies now have to hire union workers who get payed a minimum wage of at least six dollars if not more, rather than six cents a day. Prices on manufactured goods would skyrocket, sales would fall, companies' losses would steadily grow. The economy is on shaky enough ground as it is. Yes, all the new jobs produced by the re-insertion of the manufacturing plants to America would bolster the economy for a short while. However, the value of the dollar would continue to fall, prices would continue to rise, and very soon, we would find yourself right back where we started.

The American economy is not the only one in trouble nowadays. There is talk of a global recession. We all know how bad the world felt it when Wall Street tanked in 1939...and that was seventy years ago. the level of globalization has increased much further since then. Countries rely on the stability of their neighbor's economies just as much as their own economies. If China's economy, currently growing the fastest in the world, were to suddenly lose its biggest market for exports, at or around the same time as America's economy begins to falter even more, there would be global economic crisis.

In conclusion, I do not think that removing China/Taiwan as our biggest importer would be a healthy course of action for the current global situation.

[KateeHellen]

Gestapo strikes again...

Now I could definitely see it being moved to General Discussion, since that would have improved visibility and make it more available. But alas, I can't say as I'm surprised.

For professing such a grand idea as community, I see an awful lot of community-crushing decisions made on the day-to-day...

Please... as much as we might dislike some CLs acting let us restarain for such comparisons.
I come from country witch were occupied by Germans durring WW II and we learn well too good what gestapo was capable so i find such comparisons really unfair for CLs and thier work.
And that is all from my side here :).

[RikoRain]

Nothing is ever related to fiesta xD

No, but we want to talk with other FIESTANS about it. And further, we wanted to talk to APOLINIANS in FIESTA about it.

Ive seen some really good topics meant just for Fiesta-players or for a specific Fiesta-server, moved here, then either spammed or flammed, and eventually dying.

And why, for a topic that spent so much time in Apo Gen perfectly fie, be moved here? You know I NEVER come out of the Fiesta-Forums? Yeah. I dont even know what this thread looks like from the other view. Atm Im getting to it from the "moveD" link in Apo Gen =.='


I have been thinking about this for a while, I'm not sure if this is debatable, just a little nugget to mull over while you are daydreaming. When we think, we often interpret our thoughts as words, but do we really "speak" inside our brains? Are we really thinking in words, or is it just in ideas, colors, memories, or maybe emotions? Do these synaptic events in our brain get translated as words as our delicious appetite for the logical order of things tries to make sense of these thoughts and inner feelings run through our head?
Lol I cut your quote to save space :3 I did read it all.

Do you know about the Multiple Intelligences of Learning?
Howard Gardner created 8 Intelligences (6 at first, then he added two, hes about to add a 9th if he can get it goin right). He claimed that the normal IQ tests were too constrictive and specific to properly evaluate a persons intelligence because people learn different ways. They have different styles. They are: Linguistic intelligence ("word smart"), Logical-mathematical intelligence ("number/reasoning smart"), Spatial intelligence ("picture smart"), Bodily-Kinesthetic intelligence ("body smart"), Musical intelligence ("music smart"), Interpersonal intelligence ("people smart"), Intrapersonal intelligence ("self smart"), and Naturalist intelligence ("nature smart"). He concludes that people best learn and retain and think in these manners. You can google it and find several different tests (I recommend taking at least 3 that ask at least 50 questions each. And its better if they have a wider range of choices). Your "top 3" are the ones you learn and retain information in.

With some of those you can kinda understand how people think. More Word peoepl would think in words, but picture people would think in pictures. Music would think in musical notes, etc, etc.

Just a lil food for thought maybe helps a bit.

Onto my personal response to your questions/debate, I personally.. when I read something, the words are in my head, yes, they are being said aloud, but sometimes I go into "zones", where if its describing say a setting, or a character, the words I read are instantly translated into the items. For example: "A girl in a blue hat walks in with a green jacket". In my head it goes: "A -images girl- in a -pops a blue hat on her- -shes now walking- in with a -she now has a green jacket-".
Hell as Im typing this up I am "speaking" in my head. I always think in English, tho its my first language yes, BUT when I see other languages, like Spanish, Japanese, or even a bit of German, I dont see their words, I see the ENGLISH word that it means.
"A i s h i t e r u" - I love you, in japanese, when I see it I dont think "Oh a i s h i t e r u, that means i love you", nah, I see it and go "I LOVE YOU!" :D
( BY THE WAY, =_= That ticks me off I cant say "I love you" in japanese without it censoring it. Seriously, they need to fix this dang censor)

Lol Everything I read, usually gets "spoken" in my head, everything I see that doesnt have words gets put into images (Im a visual learner, and I tend to have a very good image memory.. not so much other stuff, so.. odd).
D: I think I contradicted myself somewhere. Oh well!


I forgot this was moved into the Off-Topic section. I never check here, so I forgot to check here.

Anyway, in response to Poisoned77:

I will speak from my personal experience on this:

I do often think with words in my head, but at times, I also think with pictures. In fact, at this very moment, as I type this, I am speaking to myself in my head about what I am typing. I do a lot of the time, speak with words in my head, however, I have noticed that because I don't always think with words in my head, there are times where I have thoughts that I can not explain with words when I try to speak of it on a logical level. There are some things that are impossible for me to talk to people about because I can not explain them in words.

I've often thought about the things you are asking with your post. The one thing I think about the most, though, is that when I talk in my head, I am thinking that I can hear myself in my exact voice, or I can think of a song, and I think I can hear the actual song. I've always been fascinated by that. No sound is going through my ears, but if I think about a sound, I can hear it in my head.

You my dear friend are almost exactly like me :3
In fact, you seem to have the top 3-4 intelligences and learning style that I do.
I think I love you.
xD
Btw, you are Linguistic, picture, and musical. Musical if you can remember the song every single bit :3 (except my top one was logical/mathematical D: L;inguistic/music were tied as my last of my top 3) But omg, lol
DX I have the problem of explaining things I see as well. Its do hard D:< Why cant they just imagine it for themsevles lol


Can we please get this moved back? I can see it's kinda floundering... c'mon lil thread! YOU CAN DO IT! I have faith in you! *Gives thread a red bull* c'mon...

See, its dying because the "off-topic" area isnt a topic are at all, its where the threads get dumped to die >.< ITS A GRAVEYARD



We should continue having the majority of our day-to-day products made in China/Taiwan, and exported out to us.

Agree? Disagree? Consider some implications: what does this do to the local economy, who benefits from this arrangement, is this a wholly safe practice, if you were in the position to change things, would you?

:x Omg we just debated this in my educ classes for a whole week. Can I just say I agree btu also disagree? Ill do a short lil thing.
In a way we should be more self-sufficient, should anything happen to the other countries.
BUT ALSO, we should be connected AS A PLANET, not just seperate countries or areas.


Please... as much as we might dislike some CLs acting let us restarain for such comparisons.
:x I dont think he meant it as a racial/ethnicity/countrial insult. Thats like peopel on the forum calling something "ghey". I find that offensive, but I know for some people its habit (tho it irks me alot).

D: I wish I knew more abotu that insult lol. I only know its some history thing, and.. god the images.. no words.. to put to images.. I know WHAT it is, but not the exact person, if you know what I mean. SoI know its an insuklt, amd I know its some history thing, and all that good snaz.

:x But Im sure he didnt mean it in the way you replied to. Lordly is, oddly, a very diplomatic person (if thats what it is?) his words are carefully chosen, it seems.

[KateeHellen]

RikoRain no doubt he is one of the greatest posters here but... compare CLs work to German secret Police from Second World War period is little too harsh...
For more informations i will advice google name Gestapo and you will learn many facts about that formation <this forum is not a place for this>.
To end this subject i will say that Gestapo was one of the deadliest <together whit russian NKWD> military secret police in Second World War.

[Poisoned77]

@ RikoRain: Wow, you have provided some very developed insight into my musings. I was aware of the old list of learning styles (auditory, experiential, visual,) I did not know that anyone had expanded upon these. I will definitely look up these tests and find out what my top 3 are.

In response to the whole Gestapo thing. I am sure Lordly used in jest. We all know how terrible the acts of the Gestapo were in Axis-occupied nations. However, nowadays it has become a term for use whenever a force of authority begins to tighten control. I don't think he was actually comparing our actions with the Gestapo in a serious light. It's the same as when someone uses the term grammar (WW2 era German fascist political party), because that person is being immensely scrutinizing of the grammar/spelling of a document. It may be different in countries that actually experienced the Gestapo firsthand, but that's the way the term is generally used in America today.

[UzumakiW]

You my dear friend are almost exactly like me :3
In fact, you seem to have the top 3-4 intelligences and learning style that I do.
I think I love you.
xD
Btw, you are Linguistic, picture, and musical. Musical if you can remember the song every single bit :3 (except my top one was logical/mathematical D: L;inguistic/music were tied as my last of my top 3) But omg, lol
DX I have the problem of explaining things I see as well. Its do hard D:< Why cant they just imagine it for themsevles lol


Haha, that's cool =3.

And yes, a lot of my thinking is inspired by music. If I listen to the right type of music, it can really open up my mind to so many things. It is because of music that I have been inspired to write some of the books/stories I do. For example, just the one song in itself entitled "Tranceperent Sky" by Blam Honey has inspired my idea for the current book I am writing. For some reason, when listening to this song, I can see images in my head that I would never be able to see without this song. It's very hard to explain, but this is truly how it has happened. Music inspires a nice amount of my thoughts I have come up with.

I also think a lot in terms of pictures. Not really so much normal thinking, like while I'm doing my school work, but I see pictures in my head that are nearly impossible to explain. More notably, sceneries I see in my head. I am a big fan of beautiful sceneries (my favorite type of photography), and I'm able to picture beautiful sceneries in my head that I find hard to explain. Very weird, yes, but it is true.

Everything I have said here may seem very strange to some people, but it is true that this is partly how I think. The mind is a very, very interesting thing, and it helps us see things that many people couldn't even begin to explain.

[KateeHellen]

@ RikoRain: Wow, you have provided some very developed insight into my musings. I was aware of the old list of learning styles (auditory, experiential, visual,) I did not know that anyone had expanded upon these. I will definitely look up these tests and find out what my top 3 are.

In response to the whole Gestapo thing. I am sure Lordly used in jest. We all know how terrible the acts of the Gestapo were in Axis-occupied nations. However, nowadays it has become a term for use whenever a force of authority begins to tighten control. I don't think he was actually comparing our actions with the Gestapo in a serious light. It's the same as when someone uses the term grammar (WW2 era German fascist political party), because that person is being immensely scrutinizing of the grammar/spelling of a document. It may be different in countries that actually experienced the Gestapo firsthand, but that's the way the term is generally used in America today.

I understand but not intend to start debate about this topic sometimes i wish that some people sees at thier own eyes true face of **** Germany...
That is why <regardless today meaning> my stance is that using Gestapo in any comparision should be TABOO <my mistake ^_^> because of his historical background.

[ILiKePieLoRDoFKNiVeS]

wow... i am really supprised by my third style... my top results were Musical(i knew that), Phisical, and.... personal(i tend to not do so well around other people...)

now ako, i do the exact same thing as you. music influences my work a ton. I have been writing a book for a long time, and i am neering the finish. if i find the right song, i can write up to 10 pages in around 3 hours, but if i dont have music, i usualy only get a half of a page at best, and it isnt nearly as well writen.

also, when i am reading a book or thinking about something for a while without being disturbed, i dont really think in words or pictures.. i just.. think.

[Poisoned77]

Hmm...my intelligence is actually exactly what I guessed before I took the test. My top 3 are: visual/spatial, intrapersonal, and interpersonal.

[campire931]

hmmm, i would have guessed: logical, interpersonal and musical

[ILiKePieLoRDoFKNiVeS]

we could possibly debate the strengths and weeknesses of each of these?

[campire931]

well which one do you think is most important?

I thikn Interpersonal (self smart) because if you didn't know your self, wouldn't you be lost? You would never feel like learning anything even if you already knew everything you wouldn't care. You wouldn't know yourslef.That would make you weak and vulnerable. Usually targets for abuse.

[ILiKePieLoRDoFKNiVeS]

this is where i fail. i am not a debater. i simply cannot explain my side. but i feel that people smart is very important, because if you cant express yourself to others, whats the point of knowing?

[Poisoned77]

It depends on what your main focus in life is. For me, being a visually/spatially intelligent person is crucial since I am studying to be an artist. I also think I am intelligent in the intrapersonal and interpersonal areas because I have always had a keen sense for my own and other people's emotions, feelings, body language, etc. While this allows an extreme amount of control over how much information I reveal about myself to other people, I am also able to take in a lot of information just by analyzing the way they talk, their mood, their body language...I spent several years as a lifeguard at a public pool, and you need a lot of public relations skills in that job. I think that's why my intra- and interpersonal intelligences are dominant.

[lenore_lurks]

I took the Gardner test as part of my education course and am a musical intelligence. Apparently. I think visual came next. This is an excellent test for students to do.

You could debate the value of each... but I feel they are all as important as each other. It's like... people say that if you're an absolute wizz at mathematics, you are a 'smart' person. However, people have many different and highly varied strengths and weaknesses - one cannot be simply better than another, it really is a matter of just being different. Most mathematical minds struggle with the abstract/visual/art based side of things, and vice versa. I could never tell you times tables off the top of my head as mathematics just isn't my strength, however I can visualise proportions and draw quite realistically. You could then argue that this is in fact a form of mathematics, and indeed it is, but it is not what comes to mind when one says 'maths'. And it isn't what Gardner's test is about. There is a separation there, and once you discover what your intelligence is it can be like a light-bulb moment. Suddenly everything makes sense!

[RikoRain]

@ RikoRain: Wow, you have provided some very developed insight into my musings. I was aware of the old list of learning styles (auditory, experiential, visual,) I did not know that anyone had expanded upon these. I will definitely look up these tests and find out what my top 3 are.

Well although Im studying to be a math teacher, I do greatly enjoy my psychology classes :3 Then again, Im one of those people who sits in the back of the room, or stands aside, listens and watches other people, and comes up with the answers, or can predict who will do what next based on what I see happening.

And the three you state there, the Auditory, Kinesthetic, and Visual are 3 learning styles, not intelligences xD Theyre kinda similar but also different. The three learning styles states that you are mostly one of those three, that you will learn things best that way than the other two. The 8 intelligences have to do with not only learning information, but understanding and retaining it, as well as enjoying it.

For example, in the 3 learning styles I know I am a visual first, and then kinesthetic. If you try to tell me directions, I will be unsure, and often ask for them to be repeated, or go step by step with each instruction. However, show them to me, or have me do them, and I will grasp it right off the bat.

But for the 8 intelligences, I am a more picture and word person. If I SEE (the visual learning) either the action being done, or the instructions written down on paper, I can instantly mentally "copy" the information (whether translated into the word instructions or picture actions), and be able to retain it for longer.
:3 Kinda similar, kinda different.



That is why <regardless today meaning> my stance is that using Gestapo in any comparision should be TABU because of his historical background.
Lol your font color is killing me on this dark grey background.
And.. lol its "Taboo". Something that is "taboo" is not to be mentioned.
And thats your personal opinion :| Some of us have no problem using past experiences of the world to express our feelings now. Then again, Im American, and a pretty open minded one at that.


wow... i am really supprised by my third style... my top results were Musical(i knew that), Phisical, and.... personal(i tend to not do so well around other people...)

Keep in mind tho there was INTERpersonal, and INTRApersonal. One is the "social butterfly", and the other is "the loner". The butterfly knows other people and likes other people. The loner knows him/herself and would rather be alone to think.


Hmm...my intelligence is actually exactly what I guessed before I took the test. My top 3 are: visual/spatial, intrapersonal, and interpersonal.

Thats.. odd that you would have botht he social butterfly and the loner one as your top ones O.o
Were your #3 and #4 items close together in ranking?
Lol thats why I suggested taking several tests. Youll see your results vary depending on the questions asked.


we could possibly debate the strengths and weeknesses of each of these?

Technically, no one of the 8 intelligences are stronger than the others, hence why they are all ranked on the same lvl. And since technically youre strongest in your top 3, usually you have (for the most part) alot of bases covered just with that. Like my top ones were math/logical, picture, then word followed closely by musical. Therefore I use logic a lot to solve problems, I like numbers, equations, calculations, statistics, etc. I work well with images and pictures and visuals, and yet I also work well with words and diction understanding, as well as some musical.
So Ive basically got most of my learning styles covered. I obviously have my visual, and a bit of auditory. Kinesthetic is more like.. football learning, etc, outdoor activities, which I dont like in this hot place, so I have 2 of 3 learning styles covered just with my intelligences. :3

Hard to explain D:

[Poisoned77]

I actually had a top4. I was tied between visual/spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, and nature smart. I live by "temet nostre". The skills that I have cultivated in being able to know and control myself carry over in being able to do the same with other people.

[RikoRain]

._.
Lol when I took my first quiz on these in my class, I had a definite top 3, all close together (score 18, 17, and 17), then a noticable gap, followed by the tight next three (12, 11, 11), and then another big gap followed by the last two.
._.
-sigh- This debate thread is dying because no one likes the off-topic area D: <~ random assumption.
O.o The person next ot me has a rooster ringtone.

Back to topic, in my class also we each formed groups and chose 1 of the 8 to examine further and teach to the class. I got the math/logical, and one of the neat things I found out is this intelligence doesnt develop much until the late teens (16-19). If you think about that, thats High School. I dont know about all of you, but I was always kinda a school person (Yeyeye nerd here I actually enjoyed school..), but I noticed more.. outgoing math people in high school (It might be that I was in the pre-ap class.. or it might be that I had the "good teachers".. or it might also just be thats when I remember first noticing).

I find the math/logical section interesting, because theyre not just driven by numbers, calculating things, and such, but LOGIC. Everything they do, see, hear, etc, has to have a logical reason. Things dont just happen, theres always a reason, somehow, something. :3Course I should also mention the math/logical was closely tied to science people so.. D: <~ hates science classes liek physics.

-sigh-
How about you guys pick one of your top ones, or one intelligence that interested you, rea dup a bit on it, and share something interesting you found in it?

[KateeHellen]

*Sigh...* RikoRain i see now how great is knowlegde in USA what was happend in Europe during II World War and true nature of Gestapo and **** system in general.
But i am not entilted to lecture you in this subject so let us close this part of debate :).

[RikoRain]

Uhm, okay. Honestly Ill admit I struggled to understand you.

Let me say this tho, having knowledge in American IS NOT frowned upon, if thats what you meant. In fact, it is smiled upon. People are encouraged to learn, and often do, far more than what is required.

What you must understand though, is that I am NOT a history person. I hate reading history. I hate it with a dire passion. Unless its all about myths, legends, and things I can picture freely with a imagination and let my mind wander with them, I hate it.

Do NOT generalize all Americans as illiterate knowledge-hating rears just because I dont like history. I dont like History for a specific reason, which since it so continues to be brought up, I will state it.
I hate history because while you learn mistakes made and what not to repeat again, it brings back old grudges. Yes, this revolves back to the whole racism, war, type stuff. Honestly, I hate it when some dark-skinned dude calls me racist just for not letting him have his way. Hes not enslaved now. Im not a slave master. I didnt own a slave, I dont like slavery, I didnt do any of that stuff. Why should I demean myself just so he feels better than me for something I never did to begin with? My family comes from two sides: Irish, and Native American. If anything at all, I am the result of two sad sides of the coin. People taken adantage of, and people either killed off by their beliefs or enslaved themselves. Yet Mr Dark there wants me to lay down and lick his boots because my skin color is white and his is not.

Hence why I find history a.. not so pleasant topic. When you remember past things like WW2 and the Germans and the Jewish being sent to camps and stuff, you are also reminding the Jewish to not trust any blond haired blue eyes people, and you are telling anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes that they should bend over backwards for any jewish person, for something they never did! (I am not counting all them old geezers :) lolol no offence, Im talking about modern day stuff). Thats not very fair to either side!

And Ill repeat, people are naturally selfish. They want what will benefit them better. Therefore they will use history to bring up these subjects to force others to do things that benefit them.

So... Dont think Americans are lil snitty things just cus I hate History for a good reason.
Take Lordly for example. I dunno where he lives, but he was in the military here, so I garner hes American. He knows alot about history, he is probably one of those history-loving people. Cant generalize Americans off me without generalizing Americans off him too.

Ty to the CL that moved this..

Its officially dead =_='' And this was such a good thread too.

[lenore_lurks]

Who moved it? If we PM them we can get it moved back but idk who it was :S

[RikoRain]

I think it was KireiYosei. Yea its on page like.. 29 i think.
http://www.outspark.com//forums/showpost.php?p=1307017&postcount=290

Im too lazy to PM her myself because.. well there are certain CLs Ive seen / had encounters with more than others, and Im not the type of person to initiate something with someone I rarely have encounters with. Makes me nervous, then I act stupid or say dumb things.

This sucks tho. This thread was going so nice! Its a debate thread, for users of apoline, in fiesta. It gets moved here, it dies, where it was flourishing in the Apo Gen. >.<

Since Fiesta now has an offtopic area http://www.outspark.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=178, Ive asked Yosei to please move this there, so at least its easy access to us, instead of having to go out of fiesta forums to find it, at least its up there.

[xephi_xvi]

Well, what I'd say is that you can label someone "good" or "evil" it depends on their choices and behaviour.

Let's use video game characters for an example:

Sora - The Keyblade Master
Q: Good or evil?
A: Definitely good.

He is the character that you play as and he fights to save the worlds.
He does not seek revenge and chooses to help people.
His behaviour is somewhat childish at times but he thrives to do good.

Sephiroth - The One Winged Angel
Q: Good or evil?
A: Evil.

He feeds off darkness and kills for pleasure.
He does seek for revenge.
He is Cloud's darkness. Therefore evil.


Most of the time, I like the evil characters better than the good.

When I play Kotor and Kotor 2, I choose the easy path, therefore falling to the darkside.
It's more fun to be on the darkside than the lightside.

That is just my opinion.

[Andrewnester]

bump for no good reason ^^

[erick-]

I have been thinking about this for a while, I'm not sure if this is debatable, just a little nugget to mull over while you are daydreaming. When we think, we often interpret our thoughts as words, but do we really "speak" inside our brains? Are we really thinking in words, or is it just in ideas, colors, memories, or maybe emotions? Do these synaptic events in our brain get translated as words as our delicious appetite for the logical order of things tries to make sense of these thoughts and inner feelings run through our head?

What about people of other languages? When I think, I hear my inner voice in English, because that is the language that I speak. Do people of other language's also translate their thoughts into their language, or do our brains create a self-serving language. A translation of our thoughts that really isn't language at all, we just think it is language?

Some of you may be familiar with the autistic mathematical savant Kim Peek, who was used as a character basis for Raymond Babbitt in the movie Rain Man. In interviews, Peeks has been asked how he is able to perform such high level mathematical equations in his head in mere seconds. He has described that when he looks at the numbers, he sees different colors. Colors that represent numbers and solutions. If he can visualize that he can see colors, is it possible to see sounds, or hear sights? Are our memories recorded like words or text, like a document written and saved on a computer? Or do we really just remember what happened to our senses when the memory was recorded. Would it be possible, if one concentrated enough, to inject a new sight, smell, or taste into a memory and alter one's experience?

That is a very good question, Poisoned One! What indeed is a 'thought'? Well, thought can be considered the universal language of the human race, as it has been proven that people can convey thoughts to others. However, to call it a 'universal language' would not adequately describe the concept of thought. No, to describe something as abstract as thought, one needs to look towards himself and ask, "What is going on in my mind?" This question, however deceptively simple it may be, can have a number of answers, many of which are all correct. For example, one might say "I am excited" or "I am thinking about the price of oil in the US". Those both might be correct, but neither effectively describes thought, unfortunately.

Thought, I believe, is a combination of senses and, at times, an onset of vocal reasoning. In times of great excitement, one may think in quick bursts of thought, or 'feeling', that would actually mean nothing if one tried to put them into words, even if that were possible. However, in times of no real rush or danger, one may think in words in one's dominant language, or perhaps simply in emotions.

This brings me to the correlation between 'talking in one's head' to deep emotional thought. One may say something negative about themselves and feel terrible, but, at the same time, he may say something positive and feel great. of course, this change sometimes is not felt instantaneously, but rather it takes more stimuli to truly change how one currently feels. Of course, many people could come out of a bad mood simply by saying "I am happy" or "things are fine". This, I believe, is because some thoughts are more malleable than others.

I do not know why, but something in Poisoned One's post has apparently inspired me to post professionally.

[spronekiller]

ROFL....a 6 month old thread...Necroed

[erick-]

ROFL....a 6 month old thread...Necroed

I did not necrobump this thread! Someone else may have given me the favor of making this thread active once more, but I, for one, am innocent. Please respond to my previous post, as I would like to see some more debating.

[silph]

I did not necrobump this thread! Someone else may have given me the favor of making this thread active once more, but I, for one, am innocent. Please respond to my previous post, as I would like to see some more debating.

Understood I will comply.

This is something i have wondered as well. I beleave that there are several types of thought. I beleave thought is words, but not exactly, i mean i hear english when i think but as far as words being there i dont think its so simple. I beleave that our minds understand thought but wed still concously know what we want even if we had no language.

As far as memory is concerned there is mental memory and muscle memory i beleave that when you learn to combine them true memory is acheaved. This i beleave can be easily attained in dreams. As for proof i can control my dreams to a detailed degree i actually have concious thought in them. I can feel things as well hot cold and pain. The dreams i have are also increadibly lucid. Its cool and VERY scary when there nightmares.

Did you know you can use your subconcious to think at the same time as your conciousness?

[erick-]

Understood, I will comply.

Roger that!


This is something I have wondered, as well. I believe that there are several types of thought. I believe thought is words, but not exactly. I mean, I hear English when I think, but as far as words being there, I don't think it's so simple. I believe that our minds understand thought, but we would still consciously know what we wanted even if we had no language.

Perhaps thought can occur at different 'levels' or 'frequencies'? That would explain how thought take on many different forms, I believe. Of course, that may or may not explain clairvoyance and telepathy, as thought, in any form, can be conveyed from one person to another.


As far as memory is concerned, there is mental memory and muscle memory. I believe that when you learn to combine them true memory is achieved. This, I believe, can be easily attained in dreams.

This does not surprise me -- in dreams, one is not tethered by Earthly limitations.


Did you know you can use your subconcious to think at the same time as your conciousness?

I know for a fact that the subconscious is always at work, whether or not you are consciously thinking! The subconscious is a fascinating entity, and it does more that you may believe it does.

I will look into this in more detail, later, when I am in a more contemplative mood...

[silph]

heh thanks for using the word clairvoyance i was trying to remember that word for so long anyways...

Thought is on different frequencies and some machines can pick them up sort of like telepathy but not really

[erick-]

heh thanks for using the word clairvoyance i was trying to remember that word for so long anyways...

Thought is on different frequencies and some machines can pick them up sort of like telepathy but not really


Please elaborate; what exactly is your point?

[silph]

Do you mean on clairvoyance or the machine?

I was trying to remember that word cause its how i find a flash video that i like.

As for the machines i just thought that was interesting i dont know much about it, if it interests you wiki it.