Outspark ToS Question -- Username Ownership

[lewellyn]

I'm trying to get a friend to sign up to play Outspark games. However, she came across a couple of parts of the ToS that concerned her:

You agree that the user account, including the unique SparkID username (the "Username"), is and will remain the property of Outspark.

and

You further agree to assign to Outspark, at no charge, all worldwide and perpetual rights, title and interest in copyrights and other intellectual property rights to the Username and Submissions.

So, basically, Outspark's saying they own both us and our name? And since our email address is part of our user account, that's highly disturbing...

If this is truly the case, how do I change my username as I use it in far more places than this? I really don't want Outspark to be able to say "we own the rights to your name".

I have no issues with the ToS stating that they have the right to use my name in association with content which originated with or is associated with me. However, I refuse to give them perpetual IP rights over a username I've used exclusively for over a decade. The person I'm trying to get to play has similar thoughts on this matter. (She stated that her thoughts are actually stronger than mine...)

I honestly do not recall seeing this in the ToS when I signed up. As my friend just said in IM: "there's no way in hell i will sign up as long as that policy stands, now that i think about it". And, further, she stated "and if run across anyone else interested i will be sure to tell them about this policy" and "this is like saying the state owns my given name...not happening". I would have said the same, if I had seen that in the ToS.

I bet that if more people read the ToS and realized the far-reaching implications of these two sentences, more people would feel the same.

Can I get a clarification on this issue? I'd really like her to play, and I'd also really like to ensure that Outspark won't ever be taking me to court to make me prove in a messy battle that my username is mine. :P

[Shadowic2]

I believe all that it is saying is that your account belongs to Outspark. Though I can't say for sure.

If you want an official answer to clear up some of the confusion, you can submit a Ticket (http://support.outspark.com/index.php?_m=tickets&_a=submit) or send an Email to Support@Outspark.com. They should be able to clarify a bit more on this.

[lewellyn]

I'd really appreciate a public response to this matter, however. A ticket or email just doesn't answer the question when I'm trying to get people to sign up and they read the ToS. :P

I honestly wish I had seen that before signing up myself, as I (at the least) would not have used my "usual" username...

[irroc29]

I don't think they're saying "we own that name," I think they're saying they own the account.

And about giving up your rights, they're saying, you give up the rights to the accounts.
Basically, you don't own that account, they do.
I think it just gives them permission to terminate your account if need be.

[Final.Fantasy]

I think shadowic and irroc have it right.

[Shadowic2]

True, but you'd get a faster response if you asked directly through those methods. The Staff can't always get to every question asked on the forums, which is why they'd prefer for any questions that need their attention to be directed towards Support@Outspark.com or Fiesta_help.

Plus you can always post the answer you get from them here and share that information with the community.

I'm thinking its more of saying that the account itself is property of Outspark, not so much the name. I'd think of it as the name just being a label of sorts for that account so that it can be identified. That's just my thoughts on it though.

I do understand your concern on this and you do raise up a very interesting question.

[sh4d0wkid]

You agree that the user account, including the unique SparkID username (the "Username"), is and will remain the property of Outspark.
Doesn't that include email, credit card info, and ur real name/birthdate/(i think adresss)

[irroc29]

I don't think they're saying they own your house because you put you your address down. XD

It's just saying the account is and always will be, property of Outspark.
This means, you can't sell your account--but Outspark can.


You further agree to assign to Outspark, at no charge, all worldwide and perpetual rights, title and interest in copyrights and other intellectual property rights to the Username and Submissions.

This means that your account is copyrighted and you give up the rights to claim your account as your own.
Kind of like.. you gave them the tools to paint a picture. The picture still belongs to them, even though they used your tools (in this case, information).

[sh4d0wkid]

I don't think they're saying they own your house because you put you your address down. XD

It's just saying the account is and always will be, property of Outspark.
This means, you can't sell your account--but Outspark can.



This means that your account is copyrighted and you give up the rights to claim your account as your own.
Kind of like.. you gave them the tools to paint a picture. The picture still belongs to them, even though they used your tools (in this case, information).

tell me tht when ur on the street in a cardboard box ;):rolleyes:

[irroc29]

To be honest..
I don't think you need to put your address in.. But if you did. I probably put something like.. 1234 lane ln. Alaska, Alaska.
XD

*ahem*
just kidding. lol

[sh4d0wkid]

To be honest..
I don't think you need to put your address in.. But if you did. I probably put something like.. 1234 lane ln. Alaska, Alaska.
XD

*ahem*
just kidding. lol

well idk if you do, but f yo did that's techniquely identity fraud :P

[lewellyn]

True, but you'd get a faster response if you asked directly through those methods. The Staff can't always get to every question asked on the forums, which is why they'd prefer for any questions that need their attention to be directed towards Support@Outspark.com or Fiesta_help.

Plus you can always post the answer you get from them here and share that information with the community.

I'm thinking its more of saying that the account itself is property of Outspark, not so much the name. I'd think of it as the name just being a label of sorts for that account so that it can be identified. That's just my thoughts on it though.

I do understand your concern on this and you do raise up a very interesting question.

I don't think they're saying "we own that name," I think they're saying they own the account.

And about giving up your rights, they're saying, you give up the rights to the accounts.
Basically, you don't own that account, they do.
I think it just gives them permission to terminate your account if need be.

I really think that an issue that's potentially as far-reaching as this one really ought to be responded to in public by someone from Outspark Legal directly. Or someone who can speak on their behalf. My posting an email from them just doesn't allow community discourse.

And, I realize that the intent is likely to just have rights to use our name in association with our content. However, it's explicitly worded that we have assigned them worldwide IP rights to our usernames. Which would mean that our names are no longer our own if we use them elsewhere.

It's more than our account, which is a bunch of pixels and bytes. It's our usernames; some of us use our usernames in MANY more places than here. And it's an interesting can of worms. By my assigning Outspark the IP (my username), can they then forbid me from using it elsewhere? It'd be a major pain in the rear to go and find everywhere I've used it in the past decade. And lots of things would break, as it's also my login name on a number of remote systems and who knows how many scripts rely on my username not changing on the system?

Besides, it's MY identity. I have no issue with it being associated with my account and content. But I really do have an issue with it no longer being mine.

[lewellyn]

well idk if you do, but f yo did that's techniquely identity fraud :P

Well, section 4 of the TOS kinda covers that...

You must also provide truthful and accurate information in the registration process and be who you claim to be.

Also section 1...

r) You may not give false information to or intentionally hide any information from Outspark, such as email addresses, account information, billing information, which may be required at the time you register with the Outspark Service. It is your responsibility to keep this information accurate and current.

But that's irrelevant. The issue is with "Who is the real owner of my name and other personal details?"...

[irroc29]

Naw, I put my real address because when I charge sparkcash, it's gotta be legit ;)
<I take this line back>

They aren't copyrighting your username, they're copyrighting the account.
Like I said, you can't sell it--it belongs to them.

They're saying your SparkID is there's. Not the individual name.

And if you just email support@outspark.com and quote the information here, that'd be great. ^_^

[lewellyn]

They aren't copyrighting your username, they're copyrighting the account.

The ToS explicitly says otherwise. Re-read those two sentences. Especially the part that says "including the unique SparkID username", just before "is and will remain the property of Outspark."

[irroc29]

wait, where is that at? D:

edit: nevermind,
In order to play an Outspark Game, you must register and create a valid account (the "Outspark Account"). You agree that the user account, including the unique SparkID username (the "Username"), is and will remain the property of Outspark.

If you read that sentence as a whole, rather than just "including the unique SparkID username," it's just saying that they own the account. The name chosen is how they will refer back to your account if necessary. They haven't copyrighted your name, just claimed your account and name as a unified subject.

[lewellyn]

That's in Paragraph 5. The other sentence is in Section 3, Paragraph 1. (Look for "intellectual property rights to the Username and Submissions".)

edit: I quoted the sentences in the original post, btw.

[irroc29]

I didn't see the quote about the rights to the username, but I edited my previous post just so you're aware. :)

Also, you and your friend may find this information rather helpful.

Both of them, at one point, was stickied and approved by a GM.

Celtic_Princess' simplified ToS: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1182066
Amathyst's Simplified ToS: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57231

The second one will probably be of more use to you, but the first one is good too. =)

[lewellyn]

If you read that sentence as a whole, rather than just "including the unique SparkID username," it's just saying that they own the account. The name chosen is how they will refer back to your account if necessary. They haven't copyrighted your name, just claimed your account and name as a unified subject.

I realize the intent. However, the phrasing chosen leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Especially the combination of the two sentences quoted in my original post. I could definitely see lawyers arguing that someone's popular and therefore they own usage of the name across all media, as their own. Note that it doesn't say that the IP assignment is limited solely to content related to the Username and Outspark's services. They could definitely even try to feasibly restrict someone's usage of their username on another service.

Note that I'm not saying that they have any desire to do anything nefarious, but the phrasing is less than friendly. Hell, even Microsoft's NDAs aren't as broadly reaching as this bit of ToS...

[lewellyn]

Also, you and your friend may find this information rather helpful.

Both of them, at one point, was stickied and approved by a GM.

Celtic_Princess' simplified ToS: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1182066
Amathyst's Simplified ToS: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57231

The second one will probably be of more use to you, but the first one is good too. =)

1) A "Simplified ToS" written by a third party is not legally binding.

2) Even the first one linked notes that the username is owned by Outspark, not us.

It really should be made clearer during the signup process that the name we're using is no longer ours. :mad:

[irroc29]

I understand what you're saying..
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

Anyone can copyright your username, much like Donald Trump copyrighted the phrase: "You're Fired," from his TV show.
Erm.. I definitely feel you need to email Outspark and get some more information on this matter. You do bring up a very valid point in the wording.

And yea, the simplified versions aren't a legal binding, I just figured they'd you help you out a little. ^^

Just letting you know I have submitted a ticket about this information and have asked for some clarification.
I also asked if the Unique SparkID was valid to be used in another place, like XFire. I will subscribe to this thread and let you know when I hear a response back. :D

Good night to you, Lewellyn!

[lewellyn]

I understand what you're saying..
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

Anyone can copyright your username, much like Donald Trump copyrighted the phrase: "You're Fired," from his TV show.
Erm.. I definitely feel you need to email Outspark and get some more information on this matter. You do bring up a very valid point in the wording.

And yea, the simplified versions aren't a legal binding, I just figured they'd you help you out a little. ^^

The question goes far beyond copyright. It goes into all forms of IP. And since Intellectual Property is a nice murky field that lawyers have a field day with, I'm certainly not comfortable giving some other entity implicit rights to content which I have created elsewhere, nor to use my name as they see fit.

But, I think I've said all that I have to say until Outspark Staff has a chance to respond. I'm subscribed to the thread, so I certainly won't be forgetting about it. ;)

[CSR_Joker]

Hi lewellyn,

I believe you're reading way too much into the meaning of these quotes. The text in the TOS is addressing items on our service not on anyone elses. When we say the SparkID or user name will remain the property of Outspark, this means that this account that was created on our service belongs to our service and you are allowed to use it under the terms. You can't take it from our service.

Now I am not qualified to get into legal explanations so I will ask about your concern on Monday when we return to work.

If you read any other MMO gaming company's terms of service, you will find if not the same language, most likely very similar language.

Thanks irroc29 for trying to explain, your replies are very helpful.

[DF001]

Joker just owned.

[Poisoned77]

Man, I was just about to say that...thanks for stealing my thunder Joker...

(I still love ya!)

[DF001]

poison is off-topic!

lol jk

[cotycrg]

lol nice.. well.. there couldnt be a way for them to own u just for signing up.. that would be almsot like enslavement xD

[irroc29]

*blushes*
Personal thanks from Joker, I must be doing something right. ^_^

But on a related note, thanks for clearing that up Joker (and on a weekend), I started to get a little worried myself. =x
So, the title is just what you guys call the account? And the SparkID we choose is not actually being copyrighted?

I submitted a ticket on the issue, but if you reply faster here, that would be wonderful.

[lewellyn]

Again, it's more than just copyright. And I'm not reading any more into it than it literally says. It says, plain as day, "you further agree to assign to Outspark, at no charge, all worldwide and perpetual rights, title and interest in copyrights and other intellectual property rights to the Username[...]".

In my case, I use the same username (and have for a decade) for far more than Outspark. It's highly concerning that I'm essentially assigning them all IP associated to my name and the name itself. Indeed, it violates exclusivity contracts that I have with clients. And the stuff Outspark could theoretically try to claim would be a great value for "at no charge"!

As there is no mention of this being a perpetual assignment: in the event that the ToS is not going to be changed, who do I contact to have my SparkID changed? Also, if the ToS doesn't change, would it be too much for Outspark to put up some sort of notice during the signup process which says something like "You should use a Username that you do not use anyplace else, as we will own it"? I know I'm not the only person who uses a username that they use elsewhere. And I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who has real-life money associated with their username...

[irroc29]

They aren't saying that the username belongs to them; they're just saying that the username you choose is your SparkID, and your SparkID belongs to them.

Not the individual name, the account as a whole belongs to them.

[DF001]

you people worry too much..hehe

[phenom_fiesta]

They are saying they own the accounts,
that would explain why it's illegal to sell them.

[irroc29]

Hey, this is the email that I got back from Outspark.


Dear Corri,

Thank you for contacting Outspark.com support.

You are not under any violations, and do not worry about you username.
Essentially the Terms of Service statement that you quoted is referring to the
fact that eventhough you creat an account, that account is our property as you
are playing on our service. Do not worry about any copyright infringement as we
do not copyright usernames.

Regards,

Account Administrator
www.outspark.com


Hope that helps, and thanks for bringing this topic up, I understand what must have been going through your head!
Cheers, matey.

[sirviney]

Whoa someone actually read the ToS? I'm impressed.

[phenom_fiesta]

Dear Corri,

Thank you for contacting Outspark.com support.

You are not under any violations, and do not worry about you username.
Essentially the Terms of Service statement that you quoted is referring to the
fact that eventhough you creat an account, that account is our property as you
are playing on our service. Do not worry about any copyright infringement as we
do not copyright usernames.

Regards,

Account Administrator
www.outspark.com

Huh.. there's so many spelling errors.

Oh and viney you don't read ToS? i read tos on everything i know weird huh o.0

To be honest you shouldn't really be posting PM's in public forums that's why they are called "Private Messages"

[irroc29]

Erm, it's an email, it's not from this website.

And it's an email regarding the question that this user posted.
I feel that if Outspark doesn't want this email publicized then maybe they should take it up to post on here themselves. This email just clears up what Joker said.
I don't really see why it would be against policy to post this?

[rhiander13]

when is the OBT