Discrimination in abyss too?

[Naomi89]

Have the reasons why people kill in Abyss extended beyond the normal reason and on to discriminating others now also? I'm not sure, but is it a sound and rational reason to start killing people just because they are not from the same nationality as you?

I decided to go in to the level 40 abyss today and after a while partied up with a fighter who entered also. A while after two people from the same guild (I'm assuming including people of one particular nationality; and for the record I have nothing against this) decided to start attacking us...and attacking us.... and attacking us. You get the point ;)

The fighter tried to attack back, obviously against two he stood no chance, and I decided not to fight as I didn't want to involve myself. When we asked why they continually tried to keep killing us all the did was ask us if we were from this particular nationality. When we said no we were subjected to further killing from their part.

As always the people who retort to this are usually cowards as the moment a few other people who were being harrassed by them joined together these two mentioned above scattered frantically out of abyss. Couldn't take it when it was a fair fight?

Now I know you are all going to tell me abyss is after all pvp. But is it right to kill someone and base your reason on killing them on whether or not they share your nationality? One of the nice things in this game is meeting people from different cultures, backgrounds and societies.

Also, to what extent do you need to take the repeated killing? Yes some of you will say just leave the abyss (which isn't fair that the people being harrassed should be the ones punished, but anyways), but if you ask them 2, 3 times to stop killing you and they continue, is that allowed or can/should these be reported?

It's just sad to see that even in a game which is meant for fun we find people who play it with the intention to also discriminate against others. Who knows maybe well soon have clans of people of different religions, cultures all discriminating against eachother, tearing the game apart. That's just a sad thought.

[KateeHellen]

Next time make SS and report them to Fiesta_Help, but this is just a peak of the iceberg of total chaos in abbyses... really great work OS... really great work.

[TrippinRat]

I'd say as long as they weren't making racial slurs or any sort of verbal bashing, it's fine. Nothing wrong with nuking everyone but your own "team".

It is a game afterall and would it really make a difference if they discriminated against no one in abyss vs. a specific group? Heck, the duo that came in could have been split on their answers... if you said "no" player A would have attacked first, a "yes" would have been player B. ;)

There have long since been guilds that only let in one nationality... should they be disbanded because of that? Even though they aren't technically griefing anyone?

And yes, abyss is abyss... There is a risk vs. reward factor. And it's enter at your own risk for a much better reward. You just have to go hunting there with bigger guns... or more guns, if you have a problem with securing a grinding spot.

[Naomi89]

Yes Trippin rat you do make so valid points. But as I said I have nothing against guilds of single nationality. I understand that it's nice seing people who speak your language live where you live. I definately understand that; I'm from Malta I've only encountered a max of 5 ppl who play (3 being related to me :P).

I just feel like some players are just finding reasons to hate people. Maybe so that way they feel they're killing in abyss is "justified". Yes fine it's pvp, I get that, but what I don't understand is why so much people enjoy ruining other people's time. You're seeing this person who you kee hitting and hitting, and isn't even fighting back and you keep hitting. What is the point. It's like that part in them which makes them feel guilt or compasion for others is 'missing'. And yes unfortunately some do act that way.

I actually did take a screnshot Katee, just didn't know whether to send it or not :S

[LonetheWolf]

well Outsarks view on abyss is its a PVP not PVE though everyone love using it for the latter, this stated I am confused why they opened up the abyss to so many lvls- if to settle disputes there was the FBZs for that, if for grinding 1-that's hypocritical and 2-lowerl lvls won't get exp in higher abyss so their just in their clogging it up with newbness
I poked into the 80 abyss and saw a whole bunch of high lvls hanging int eh front just slaughtering the lower lvls coming in(saw a 50 cleric get pwned badly) many will say 'we have the right to' and I'm not disputing that I'm just finding it odd as her were so many 'omg they killed me in abyss' threads already that this is just going to cause more. With kill points implemented (or so I've heard -haven't tested myself yet-) this will encourage even more killin in there which is fine and all but I don't think they should change so much with the abyss's at once. Also I wish they'd waited longer to put in the 80 abyss-now all the pre-existing caps will be pissed at all the 'new caps' rushing up lvls through abyss grinding and there will be more capped bored people getting hot tempered, waring, ranting, and quitting O.o Seems like a great war to make a quick spike in earnings (bot, charms, cs pot, hp/sp extenders being bought) then large drop off as a large mass of players leave.
My mate brought up an interesting up side- more greens and production skills might be found with more people over a wider range of abysses and I'm curious to see how that pans out in the marketplace...

[Ciocolajs]

abyss is fail now anyways why even bother enter? D:!

[devin_nicolai]

Well, i feel bad cause i didnt know about exp loss, and someone ( who tryed to get a pt and kill me over and over) told me he was losing exp and i was really mad cause they pured all my T3s so i kept killing him, then I died and saw x x It would seem nationality would come in hand Now that you lose exp ;s

[Lety23]

Next time make SS and report them to Fiesta_Help, but this is just a peak of the iceberg of total chaos in abbyses... really great work OS... really great work.

I don't think anyone should be blamed for problems in abyss
besides the people who started the problem
Outspark can't really MAKE people not do this
and if certain restrictions are applied
Then I think that whetever they apply might interfere with other important factors

This is just how abys is
Though I don't understand
WHY
parties like to kill one another in a grinding area
especially if you were far in the abys and walking back
to the same spot is difficult

I think maybe just report
And I agree that the people being harrassed shouldn't be the ones leaving

But, they can't stay there forever
and There's other parts in abys to grind
If it were me, i would have just gone out of the abys and
maybe work on the quests always put off
Or go find another place to grind
Then come back after a while, because I'm sure that they would leave if they
have no one to harrass

[DARUNA]

to get owned?I personally never pvpd for any hateful reason.I just do what most people do,fight only in self def.OS staff made a bit of a mistake opening all these abyss and dungeons to so many lvls.Imagine when lvl 8x or capped people get bored,where will they go,abyss to kill lower lvls in unfair fights with +9s and big groups.OR they will go to dungeons and kill everything,making it hard on those trying to actually get credit for kills.
8xs killing all KMs,ZKs,GGKs,TKs,GOCs,and GHs will create a lot of flame threads of people being irritated.How would you feel if a higher lvl killed ZK and you were 39 depending on that kill for 40?Too bad now you have to wait 4 hours,give or take,just to have them respawn.Like i said,i think its a mistake,now people cant relie on other people your lvl or in the range to kill in dungeons,now it will be alot of plvling is all.The abyss was a big mistake too,how many people will try a lil higher abyss for a lvl x9 to get to the next lvl with no quests?And all they get is a bunch of higher lvl people with +9s and in groups.Im glad i never use the abyss,now its all reserved for the highest lvls(or even higher,some cowards are in there just for that)with +9s.Again,my opinion is that the Staff,while i know they are just trying to make the game fun for everyone,probly just ruined it for alot of people.

[Lety23]

Now
I don't know exactly what's up with the abys
Since I haven't logged in a month

But
Is this abys thing supposed to be like that?
I mean did they remove the restrinctions on purpose?
Or just a bugg for now?
Because I agree that now Higher lvls will just plvl alot or make it hard for the people actually trying to grind

[TrippinRat]

Yes Trippin rat you do make so valid points. But as I said I have nothing against guilds of single nationality. I understand that it's nice seing people who speak your language live where you live. I definately understand that; I'm from Malta I've only encountered a max of 5 ppl who play (3 being related to me :P).

I just feel like some players are just finding reasons to hate people. Maybe so that way they feel they're killing in abyss is "justified". Yes fine it's pvp, I get that, but what I don't understand is why so much people enjoy ruining other people's time. You're seeing this person who you kee hitting and hitting, and isn't even fighting back and you keep hitting. What is the point. It's like that part in them which makes them feel guilt or compasion for others is 'missing'. And yes unfortunately some do act that way.

I actually did take a screnshot Katee, just didn't know whether to send it or not :S

In the end you gotta just realize it's a game. Some people find all their fun with the sport of pvp, whether that be unethical wholesale slaughter of newbies, or 1v1 combat. It sucks to be on the receiving end of a whoopin' but I tell you one of the best releases of frustration after a KQ full of morons is to stop by the BG in Roumen and slap around some low levels.

Honestly, if you can just tell yourself this game isn't going to matter to your life, it'll all be a whole lot better. :) There is more than just the abyss to level.


Now
I don't know exactly what's up with the abys
Since I haven't logged in a month

But
Is this abys thing supposed to be like that?
I mean did they remove the restrinctions on purpose?
Or just a bugg for now?
Because I agree that now Higher lvls will just plvl alot or make it hard for the people actually trying to grind


At the risk of getting this thread closed for detouring to the topic of the patch, I'll answer this quick... Yes, it's on purpose as you've been reading in the 100 or so posts. :) Good idea? I think so.


But let's go back onto the OP's topic so we don't get shut down.

[RikoRain]

Nope

First, this is HARASSMENT by killing you over and over and over for no apparent reason (at that time)

Second, this is RACISM / DISCRIMINATION because they harassed you in abyss because of a nationality

Third, Abyss is pvp, yes, and many may claim it is a "anything goes area", but IT STILL MUST FOLLOW THE TOS

Fourth, technically if they kill you more than once, and you do not fight back and ask them to stop, and they still continue, this is also HARASSMENT

Basically: Report those n00bs, then sit back and laugh as they "disappear" for a few days/weeks.

[Mordriss]

I'd say as long as they weren't making racial slurs or any sort of verbal bashing, it's fine. Nothing wrong with nuking everyone but your own "team".

SO....discrimination in the game is ok but not in real life? So...They didn't make racial slurs, it's ok?

If Hitler hadn't called Jews "kikes," would it have made the gassings ok? If we hadn't call black people "******s," would it have made our ancestors in the right by stealing them from their continent and forcing them into slavery?

I'm sure you know which word was edited up there.

[TrippinRat]

SO....discrimination in the game is ok but not in real life? So...They didn't make racial slurs, it's ok?

If Hitler hadn't called Jews "kikes," would it have made the gassings ok? If we hadn't call black people "******s," would it have made our ancestors in the right by stealing them from their continent and forcing them into slavery?

I'm sure you know which word was edited up there.



If you tried to apply all the equal opportunity, anti-discrimination laws, and human rights from real life onto this game, then you might as well throw player-sanctioned lawsuits and sell judge and jury outfits for Sparkcash.

I don't think I have in any way attempted to make any correlation between this game and real life. If I did inadvertantly, I am sorry. "Game life" and "real life" are two mutually exclusive realms.

Discrimination in a GAME is fine (in my opinion) as long as it's not directed in a hateful way. For example, a guild made for people from one nation. Should I be able to force them to admit me or some "non-national" on the grounds of preventing discrimination? No, because it's understood they likely share a common language, possibly exclusive to them, and/or that they're just a group of friends.

Kill people of another nationality? Why not? That's a VERY broad discrimination at worst. Where would I draw the line? Racial slurs is probably it, for a game. Unless they specifically mentioned they were making race an issue, I don't see how people should take much of what is done in a game as discrimination.

Would I do this? No, I just walk in and start swinging. :)

_

[Mordriss]

Because it's allowing them to cultivate very negative proclivities.

A guild for a particular country, race, whatever, is not discriminating against another country person or race; they are being particular. That's fine. If I want to go make a redheads guild and only invite redheads, whatever. But if I do that and say only red heads can join because blondes are stupid and brunettes are nerdy...then I'm discriminating.

Sure game life and real life are different. Verbal and physical (or pixel lol how else do i say it? i'm too tired) abuse of other people because of how they look, where they might be from, or whatnot is wrong no matter what medium it's taken in.

The only discrimination I can think of that is not wrong is....stinky people. They should be shunned and ridiculed right to the nearest bar of soap.

Put the patchouli down dude!

With that, I'm off to dreamland. Good evening.

Oh wait!

ah wait...If you tried to apply all the equal opportunity, anti-discrimination laws, and human rights from real life onto this game, then you might as well throw player-sanctioned lawsuits and sell judge and jury outfits for Sparkcash.

Why not? We already have the judgmental idiots.

I don't think I have in any way attempted to make any correlation between this game and real life. If I did inadvertantly, I am sorry. "Game life" and "real life" are two mutually exclusive realms.
Discrimination in a GAME is fine (in my opinion) as long as it's not directed in a hateful way. For example, a guild made for people from one nation. Should I be able to force them to admit me or some "non-national" on the grounds of preventing discrimination? No, because it's understood they likely share a common language, possibly exclusive to them, and/or that they're just a group of friends.

OK this is what woke me up (slightly)

"As long as it's not directed in a hateful way??!?!! We're not talking about "discerning" individuals. We're talking about discimination in the form of abusing another because of their race or nationality. As far as I know the OP was saying that they were being killed by people who "When we asked why they continually tried to keep killing us all the did was ask us if we were from this particular nationality."

Sounds like hatefulness to me.

Kill people of another nationality? Why not? That's a VERY broad discrimination at worst. Where would I draw the line? Racial slurs is probably it, for a game. Unless they specifically mentioned they were making race an issue, I don't see how people should take much of what is done in a game as discrimination.


See quoted from OP above.

So if you're Israeli and I call you a sand N------ you won't get mad? If you tell me you're Islamic and I offer up a dish of filth and ask whom you've bombed lately...that's ok too?


Would I do this? No, I just walk in and start swinging.

Always the best route to a positive end.

And now I'm going for real and I'm not re-reading this so you're stuck with typos and my sweet sweet abrasivness.

[Naomi89]

I'm sorry trippin rat it might be a game but you are still dealing with real peope. Imagine one day some one is being discriminated by in game. How do you know that this person is already being discriminated and bullied in real life. He needs to be subjected to it here aswel? I agree with Mordiss. Game or not the emotions are still real. And some people might take it really to heart. And actually no i didn't 'whooped' this time as you said, i just stood there healing(with stones) and asking them to stop. I didn't even feel like being a part of their ridiculous behaviour yesterday. And as riko rain said, i think continually killing/trying to kill a person who obviously hs no interest in fighting would count as harrassment. Not to mention the people who decide to kill you because they merely want the spot you're in.
In game or not it still doesn't give people a right to be mean or hateful towards others. I know there are some who enjoy treating others this way in real life, so why not in game too; obviously theyre going to act that way, and I am not in any way justifying it. But if there are people trying to get to people as hard as they can just because its in game, well that's childish and completely illogical. Trippin I applaud you for not being one of the people who acts in this manner, but it is people like you who justify this sort of behaviour that continues to enforce it, and people who already had no problem doing this will now do it even more joyfuly.
And i think you lost the point at one bit, cause as I said before (twice I think) there is nothing wrong with one nationality guilds. Why not there is nothing wrong with forming groups with which you have a common ground, interest ecc. But hating others for not being like you is another thing.

It may be in game but behind each character there is a person sitting at home with real emotions and indirectly the way they play their character is mirroring themselves.

[TrippinRat]

Haha, I enjoy the debate, as long as it doesn't drip with sarcasm or get too hotheaded (neither of which applies to you). However, I am going to skip quoting your thread because it doesn't quote the quotes, and it'll confuse me in the process... as I too am ready to doze off. :)

Main points...

As far as the situation with the OP where all they did was ask, and did nothing else by attack... I don't see anything wrong with that. They didn't make any name-calling or race/nation-bashing, so your example is flawed. The question could have very well been "hi, how are you?" and if they said "great!" they get attacked (can't have all that happiness in the ABYSS now), and if they said "crappy", well they could have been attacked anyways. ;)

I guess it comes down to how sensitive you want to make the game. If you want to equivocate the game to real life where everyone makes a fit at the drop of a hat, then sure, it's discrimination. Then the jerks should be able to sue for people hating jerks.

Not to take a shot at the OP, but would this have been brought up if the players came in, asked their question, attacked, and promptly got their hind ends thrashed?

The only thing I'll agree with is the chain-killing as harrassment, which is an issue on its own, discrimination or not. No need for that rubbish.



Edit: Naomi replied while I was writing, so I'll add my comment to her in next post..
_

[Naomi89]

Lol actually at the end three who were getting harrassed by them "joined forces" :P and the other two went running out of abyss. When the battle was fair they were too cowardly. They may have 'lost' at the end, but it still doesn't make their behaviour acceptable and that is why I brought it up.
Be it the situation, discrimination, childish people ecc in this case since there was no severe name bashing yes the continual senseless killing was the worst thing. But when little things are accepted, believe me, it only paves the way for worse things.

[TrippinRat]

I'm sorry trippin rat it might be a game but you are still dealing with real peope. Imagine one day some one is being discriminated by in game. How do you know that this person is already being discriminated and bullied in real life. He needs to be subjected to it here aswel? I agree with Mordiss. Game or not the emotions are still real. And some people might take it really to heart.

I think the incident has been inflated too much. And the boundaries to what I'd consider discrimination aren't clear. The amount of discrimination I mention I'd tolerate in the game should by far not be enough to tip the balance of someone's emotional state. If it is, then yes the game needs to be regulated like real life and it'll get Politically Corrected into oblivion.


And as riko rain said, i think continually killing/trying to kill a person who obviously hs no interest in fighting would count as harrassment. Not to mention the people who decide to kill you because they merely want the spot you're in.

I meant to reply to Riko's post earlier about agreeing on the harrassment. But otherwise, if you walk into Abyss, you can kill or be killed for whatever reason. Just don't make it actively abusive. Merely asking your nationality and nothing more, isn't very abusive. It just gives meaning to him killing you. Since he harrassed you additionally by chain-killing, you've extrapolated that it was discriminatory harrassment. Possible? Sure. Was that their motive? Never will know cause they didn't say (for chain-killing).

Also keep in mind that there are MANY people who don't realize that you can't kill-kill-kill however whenever wherever you want in Abyss. Looking through posts, the answers other people give seem to be divided. Enough people mention it's ok and they don't think twice.


Trippin I applaud you for not being one of the people who acts in this manner, but it is people like you who justify this sort of behaviour that continues to enforce it, and people who already had no problem doing this will now do it even more joyfuly.
And i think you lost the point at one bit, cause as I said before (twice I think) there is nothing wrong with one nationality guilds. Why not there is nothing wrong with forming groups with which you have a common ground, interest ecc. But hating others for not being like you is another thing.

It may be in game but behind each character there is a person sitting at home with real emotions and indirectly the way they play their character is mirroring themselves.

For the record, I do not condone griefing in any way. However, I do feel that players allowed to play the game are expected to be mature enough to not blow things out of proportion. That being said, the marginal cases of discrimination (such as attacking you for being a different nationality) should be taken with a little bit thicker skin than an emotional disaster waiting to happen.

Try to look at it in another perspective, to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they were recruiting for their nationality-exclusive guild. Since you weren't a prospective member, you may very well just be an enemy then (if you aren't one of us, you're against us). Will we ever know their true motive? No... But it feels better to think of it other than discrimination. In spite of some trends and the existense of some bona fide jerks out there, there are people with honorable intentions that just came out looking bad. They could have been role-players.

I know you mentioned having nationality-only guilds are ok... BUT if you think the slightest bit of discrimination is wrong, then these sort of guilds should not be ok.



Dear lord that was a lot wasn't it... And for the record, I don't mean any of that as personal shots if they sound like it. :)

_

[soojin]

wow, how terrible.
it's disgusting how with characters of all the same skin tone, a select amount of people will still go out of their way to find out the exact race / nationality of the player behind the character.

in a way, i'm glad the game doesn't incorporate the different skin tones.
imagine all the possible issues that'd come with that. -____- sounds like a walking target.

[KateeHellen]

For any future cases it is best to contact any CLs and they will redirect you where to send SShots.
However due current situation i highly doubt that such reports will be even taken under scope...

[Naomi89]

"I do feel that players allowed to play the game are expected to be mature enough to not blow things out of proportion"

Trippin I quoted this from you. Amazing you say that. So the people being harrassed and continually killed ecc are the ones meant to be mature? And the childish people who do these things are allowed to be as immature as they want? Cause that is what you are saying.
And no I don't think the situation was blown out of proportion I was merely stating what happens, and some of the things that happen in the abyss and between players are ridiculous. You seem to be ignoring all these points and merely focusing on defending all of those that do these things in abyss as you are not attributing the same things to both sides. As I said you expect the ones who are peacfully grinding to be mature and not the others? If anything the ones who were not disturbing anyone where the ones being mature in the first place. I don't know what the others think.

[TrippinRat]

wow, how terrible.
it's disgusting how with characters of all the same skin tone, a select amount of people will still go out of their way to find out the exact race / nationality of the player behind the character.

in a way, i'm glad the game doesn't incorporate the different skin tones.
imagine all the possible issues that'd come with that. -____- sounds like a walking target.

I agree. In spite of the fact that I think this situation is marginally racist at best, I think that making various skin tones in this game would generate some racist behavior.

Especially since no one ever gets the benefit of doubt anymore, like this guy. I think a typical racist jerk would make some comments. If none were made and all he did was determine whether you were on his side or not by selection of nationality, then he was just killing non-friends, not enemies.

"I do feel that players allowed to play the game are expected to be mature enough to not blow things out of proportion"

Trippin I quoted this from you. Amazing you say that. So the people being harrassed and continually killed ecc are the ones meant to be mature? And the childish people who do these things are allowed to be as immature as they want? Cause that is what you are saying.
And no I don't think the situation was blown out of proportion I was merely stating what happens, and some of the things that happen in the abyss and between players are ridiculous. You seem to be ignoring all these points and merely focusing on defending all of those that do these things in abyss as you are not attributing the same things to both sides. As I said you expect the ones who are peacfully grinding to be mature and not the others? If anything the ones who were not disturbing anyone where the ones being mature in the first place. I don't know what the others think.


I don't see how they were being immature as far as discrimination goes. Harrassment on the grounds of chain-killing at spawn, sure. But going into abyss and killing people just isn't immaturity on its own. The zone is made for that, and NOT for peace. When I think of an abyss, I think of a very dismal area full of chaos and struggle. Not the land of the Smurfs where everyone gets along with an occasional Gargamel coming in.

I want to stress that I'm not defending the notion everyone should get to do whatever they want. I am just trying to point out some situations can be looked at in a different light. Genuine harrassment should be punished as well as genuine racism.

As far as the situation brought up originally, I'm just playing devil's advocate as far as the discrimination goes. It is possible he just planned to kill all who he wasn't recruiting, which are only people of his nationality. Which should be ok, because that's not technically discriminating against you other than not letting you into his exclusive guild. That's where I think it's being blown out of proportion.