Whats going on here?

[notFire]

Ever since I came back to Solstice, I have felt that our forums have changed. I have seen many differences that have disturbed me.

I feel like the forums are being policed.

Now, of course by now you are saying "of course they are being policed, Fire, thats the CL and GM's job." But my point is this:

I have been watching the threads. I have been watching the actions taken by those who oversee those threads. And I feel that the forums that I left back in the summer, are not the same forums I returned to.

I have seen threads closed, some for obvious reasons, some not so obvious. I have seen this in RECORD amounts.

I have seen posts deleted, changed, etc, some of which I have a hard time figuring out why. Since when did the Solstice forums become Stalin's Communist Regime. Where a word spoken even SLIGHTLY with a hint of condescension is deleted and removed. Where we are no longer allowed to "debate," whats does that mean anyway?

and Dylan, you will undoubtably respond to this, so I will state this to you. I feel you do a good job. I also feel you do your job too well. Where are the CL's like you on the Blackshot forums, where spam is REALLY an issue, where aggression is seen in almost every thread in form of flaming Outspark AND players.

The Solstice forums are TAME compared to those of other areas, so why is it policed like it is? Do not say you dont know what I am talking about, I know there are those of you out there who have approached me about this, only to tell me they did not want to make any issue with anyone.

Well, I will make issue. I will state what I feel becuase I come to these forums every day, enjoy the conversations that go on, and hope that they never degenerate into other forums I have seen. I feel like our ability to effectively have a discussion on these forums is being jeopardized.

Dont take this as a flame, this is a concern being raised by a faithful player and forum addict.

Who knows, this thread may get deleted tho... should that happen, see you all in the gulag xD

[dylanangel]

ROFL I would not delete nor close this thread unless people took it way off topic or didnt listen to the non flamming rule.

I think my "no debating" thing was taken outta context. I appreciated the person who tried to explain what I meant. I in no way am saying that no one can talk about someones idea. I am saying that I dont want these people quoted and then someone saying omg that is horrible because. I want people to feel like they can post without being torn apart for their ideas.


I feel you do a good job. I also feel you do your job too well.
Thank you very much for this because today I felt attacked. I am not out to make others feel bad. I am not out to abuse any power (if thats what it is) that was given to me. I want others to enjoy the forums and the discussions as I do but as a CL I have guidelines that I must follow so I do what is asked of me.

I have gone to the BS forums and have policed a few of the threads and we need more people over there.

[Dark_Knight99]

I agree with you fire, forums are for discussion on one or many ideas and even that right seems to have been taken away from us.

[Brutus_]

Fire is correct , but theres also some guys in here who are " professional flamers " , and they lead others to say things that we wouldnt say in front of our mother ...

i believe some of those deserved a " forced vacation " from the forum , till they learn how to debate things , talk , share ideas and opinions , because they clearly dont know how ...

[jammin001]

I think you're exactly right Fire, your frustrations mirror mine almost exactly. I was away from the forums for much of the summer, and when I started becoming more active again I noticed the same changes you've mentioned. There's a whole lot that I'd like to say on the topic, but I'm not sure how much I should say. I've had posts deleted or drastically changed on several occasions. I've had condescending replies via pm. I've had to contact Serric several times over multiple issues in regard to these things. And it's not just one of the CLs/CSRs that I've had problems with.

One time a CL was having it out with someone over a forum issue, and when I pointed out why the origianl poster was in the right, the thread was immediately deleted. I had to create a new thread just to confirm that my interpretation of the forum rules was correct. This was only one of many issues I've had, and no where near the worst.

I really don't want this to become a flame thread, so I've purposely not mentioned any people or specifics. I just wanted to say that I share your concerns. There's also been friends of mine in game who are disgruntled with how things are going in forums, so I know it's not a few issolated incidents.

[VampireMelody]

Where are the CL's like you on the Blackshot forums, where spam is REALLY an issue, where aggression is seen in almost every thread in form of flaming Outspark AND players.


Lol I ask myself that question also. The Blackshot forum is like a horror film @.@

~VM

[kevinata]

would you like the Sots forums to descend to the horribleness of the Blackshot forums?

i agree with some of what you wrote fire but it isnt that hard to folow these new rules
they actually encourage constructive critiscm, which is a good thing.

During my days here in the forums , which isnt that many, the only threads that have been closed were those that were either necroed or there were people there flaming.

There are professional flamers in this forums, there are also those who abuse their power to derep people. These people caused the changes in the forums not the cls or cms.

This is just me but i believe that you were exaggerating when you compared this forums to Totalitarian Russia. the censcoring isnt that bad.

[opensunflowers]

Fire you said all of what I was thinking but I could have never put it as eloquently as you. ;)

[Dragonfly77]

I agree with you fire. Over the months I've noticed the forums become more and more policed. One of the things that are hard with forums is that you cannot really express what you want to say, in consideration of talking to someone face to face. A simple post could be taken on many angles. It could be an insult, a flame, or a friendly discussion. People take it as to what they see it and respond. And if the next poster takes it as an insult...flame war. You almost always have to state your intentions.

Every one has to be open minded, forums are a place to discuss. Be civil, and don't jump to conclusions. You have all the time you need.

And don't let anyone put you down dylan. You do a great job. ^^

Edit: I don't hang around the forums 24/7, but I agree with kevin that the only threads I've seen closed are flame threads and necroed threads. I don't keep tabs on what post was deleted, so I can't say anything about why a post was deleted. But if the content of the post was not an insult, flame, or whatever, then...it loops back to my first paragraph.

[jammin001]

I don't really keep tabs on what threads are closed, or posts are deleted either, so I can only talk from personal experience from my own posts. I've had posts deleted/changed that were not flame threads, were not disrespectful, did not break the ToS or forum rules. Many of them were deleted because they were an embarrasment to the CLs. I have never flamed another person on the forum, or a specific person on the Outspark staff, and have kept much of my displeasure at certain things to PM.

I had one thread where a post was deleted (fortunately I had saved a copy); when I sent the copy to Serric asking if it was appropriate and he said it was, I reposted it and a different CL chopped it up, deleting large chunks of it. I then had to pm Serric again, and repaste the post again. By that time the thread had been up for a couple of days, and it got bumped off the first page, and died without generating any of the discussion I had hoped for.

I understand the CLs need to make quick decisions on whether or not to allow something on the forum, but all too often they're too quick with the delete button. Deleting a post because it's embarrasing and they were shown up is not a proper use of the power. I've been embarrased on the forums before when others have shown me where I've been wrong, or what I did was wrong, but I can't delete their posts so that no one else will see my mistakes. And using the excuse "it's not on topic" is wrong too, since most of the thread creators embrace supposedly "off topics", and usually use their opening post to generate a wide ranging discussion, not a very narrow one defined by a CL. It should be up to the thread creator whether or not something is off topic. When in question, a CL should contact the thread creator, and ask them if a post is appropriate, instead of start pushing the delete button (pictures Teru Mikami from Death Note). Maybe I'm wrong, and it is a CL's duty to act as off topic police, but if that's their job then it needs to change.

And as for some recent threads...if you spend the time deleting lots of posts in a thread in order to make it clean, then there's no reason to close it since it was now clean. All you're going to do is tick off all the other people who wrote sincere, heartfelt posts in that thread. If you feel the discussion in that thread was so volatile that the thread must be closed, don't. Those people are only going to start posting to other threads, and they'll be that much angrier. Instead, change the tone in the original thread. Learn from what has happened the last couple of days.

[hypersonic]

where were the cl's in the gap between closed and open betas, anyone remember the forums back then? OMG D;

Fire must remember that really sick thread x.x

[BellaAnimorum]

where were the cl's in the gap between closed and open betas, anyone remember the forums back then? OMG D;

Fire must remember that really sick thread x.x

I got one thing to say for this:

RAPTOR JESUS & MISERY INDEX !!!

But on a more serious note, as one who has been around for quite some time, and I do believe I made this point a while ago as well, it is because of the increasingly growing community that these sorts of problems arise.
When it was only... I don't know, MAYBE two hundred of us total hanging out waiting for open beta there were of course some people who had to make things complicated, but never anything so drastic as now.
It's all a matter of course. With more people there will inevitably be more problems. Things are different now because the situation as a whole has changed. There is more content in the game to critique, and more bugs to hate on or gripe about. And now, it is policing? There ought to have been more CLs MONTHS ago, yet now there almsot seems to be a shortage, or rather 'gaps' in the times each one is on, where sudden flamage or arguments or even OS bashing occurs.
Admittedly I am not in the forums near as much as most of the previous posters in this thread, not to mention I remain strictly within SotS/General OS forums, but when I do come in to check up on things it never ceases to amaze me how overreactive people can become.
More on topic, are not the majority of closed threads ones that have no purpose for continuing? Surely I'm not overlooking the situation here so terribly as a long-running member of the community?
Other than that I think many people need to get off their 'high horses' and just realise that no one person knows eveything that goes on behind the curtain. Everything happens for a reason, or else all is chaos.

P.S. - Please PM me with your take on the current events, if you feel the need to correct my observations, whether civil or pompous or whathaveyou.

[CM_JungleCurry]

Hey All

We always welcome discussions, feedback on issues, good or bad. But all that we ask for is for those discussions and feedback to be civil.

I'm sure all the CL's would love nothing more than a forum that requires no moderation :) Unfortunately this is not always possible as this would lead to flaming, hate posts and other inappropriate posts.

This is a very passionate community, and I hope we can continue to make it great.

If you feel that your posts were deleted for no reason, please let us know. I would also like to say that the CL's are doing a great job.

[Shahared]

Stumbled across this thread and thought I would put me 2 cents in (for what it is worth, I haven't really covered SoS in a long time, and when I did it was in the troubleshooting section that I spent most of my time). I just thought that since I am a CL, I could give you my perspective.

First, I read a post (not going to quote all the things I read, just want to cover some things that stuck out to me) describing the problem with the BlackShot forum compared to SoS. Well the big problem is that most CLs are chosen for what they do in the forums. Since we are all players like you, we started off sticking to the sections we were used to. It's not hard to understand that one CL attempting to cover every section and thread made on the forums would not be able to do much. So we focus our talents in the areas we are used to. That is why the most popular games seem to have more CLs.

Second I wanted to cover issues with deleted and closed threads. First on this subject I want to give some advice. If you talk to a CL about getting 'the go' on a certain topic or thread, make sure you ask them to let the other CLs know 'by PM'. We can be pretty busy sometimes, and it is easy for us to forget to communicate to the other CLs everything we do during the course of the day. Also understand that contrary to my first statement, we do actually communicate and make decisions together. Your thread may have been closed for a reason we can't describe to you. For instance if there are people messing up your thread or causing issues. We couldn't tell you what they did that broke the rules or the punishment because it is confidential. Also we may not disclose to you things the staff or other CLs bring up when deciding things like this because it is confidential as well.

We have guidelines, many of them passed down from the staff. We follow those guidelines as well as we can. I can't stress enough though that all human beings make mistakes and errors. We all have emotions and a real life. So if you think there is something that can be resolved communicate with us! We never permanently delete a thread. Every thread we delete the original poster is contacted, and we will work with them if they have any issues. Many times the original poster has no problems or even wanted the thread stopped. Then others will look and see it closed and make assumptions.

In any case, 90% of the threads closed were done so because of a requirement. There are rules, and you can read them. There are decisions made that will change or add to these rules, and we will attempt to make the rules as up to date as possible. And once again, if you need to voice a concern you can always contact other CLs or the staff about it. You may even take advantage of the carbon copy feature in the PM system to send copies to all the CLs if it is an important issue.

So basically this is the advice I have, which I think will be valuable to all of you since I have some experience with the issues at hand (I am a CL after all :P).

P.S. Also I know a lot of this was brought up by the other Cls and staff members, I just wanted to give you my unique take on it.

[jammin001]

Thanks Shahared for your explanation. It helps to clear some things up. I know that CLs are human and make mistakes just like everybody else, for that reason I try to be understanding. I've just been a bit bitter and angry at the three big thread changes that CLs have made to my posts in the last couple of months. It's very frustrating having to constantly go back to a CSM to get these issues resolved. Ironically, all three times I wrote those posts to help the community, and two of those times I wrote the threads as a fun forum alternative to much of the drama that goes on here. Last week was almost the last straw when I felt humiliated having to stick up for my thread to a CL over the forum and not through PM.

I'm not sure if CLs really understand how much people look up to them on the forums, and I get the feeling that some of them feel they can just act like regular players on here, and say the same things to people they did before they became CL. That's not the case, and most people will always support what a CL says over what any of us say, even if they're talking as a regular player. I think that's the main reason fire started this thread...because CL's have a lot of power and responsibility on here, and he wants them to make sure they know how they are affecting people with the decisions they make.

I understood how thrakx felt at that moment when he found his thread had been closed, how he wanted to quit SotS, at least temporarily. I've felt that same way too. Ironically it was fire posting to my thread last week that made me decide to stick with the thread and the game. He does a very good job as a peacemaker on the forums, and I think he understands some of the things going on here better than most because of that.

[thrakx]

Thanks Shahared for your explanation. It helps to clear some things up. I know that CLs are human and make mistakes just like everybody else, for that reason I try to be understanding. I've just been a bit bitter and angry at the three big thread changes that CLs have made to my posts in the last couple of months. It's very frustrating having to constantly go back to a CSM to get these issues resolved. Ironically, all three times I wrote those posts to help the community, and two of those times I wrote the threads as a fun forum alternative to much of the drama that goes on here. Last week was almost the last straw when I felt humiliated having to stick up for my thread to a CL over the forum and not through PM.

I'm not sure if CLs really understand how much people look up to them on the forums, and I get the feeling that some of them feel they can just act like regular players on here, and say the same things to people they did before they became CL. That's not the case, and most people will always support what a CL says over what any of us say, even if they're talking as a regular player. I think that's the main reason fire started this thread...because CL's have a lot of power and responsibility on here, and he wants them to make sure they know how they are affecting people with the decisions they make.

I understood how thrakx felt at that moment when he found his thread had been closed, how he wanted to quit SotS, at least temporarily. I've felt that same way too. Ironically it was fire posting to my thread last week that made me decide to stick with the thread and the game. He does a very good job as a peacemaker on the forums, and I think he understands some of the things going on here better than most because of that.


well said torean, and thanks for saying that. It helps a lot.

[TheDarkSenshi]

Thanks Shahared for your explanation. It helps to clear some things up. I know that CLs are human and make mistakes just like everybody else, for that reason I try to be understanding. I've just been a bit bitter and angry at the three big thread changes that CLs have made to my posts in the last couple of months. It's very frustrating having to constantly go back to a CSM to get these issues resolved. Ironically, all three times I wrote those posts to help the community, and two of those times I wrote the threads as a fun forum alternative to much of the drama that goes on here. Last week was almost the last straw when I felt humiliated having to stick up for my thread to a CL over the forum and not through PM.

I'm not sure if CLs really understand how much people look up to them on the forums, and I get the feeling that some of them feel they can just act like regular players on here, and say the same things to people they did before they became CL. That's not the case, and most people will always support what a CL says over what any of us say, even if they're talking as a regular player. I think that's the main reason fire started this thread...because CL's have a lot of power and responsibility on here, and he wants them to make sure they know how they are affecting people with the decisions they make.

I understood how thrakx felt at that moment when he found his thread had been closed, how he wanted to quit SotS, at least temporarily. I've felt that same way too. Ironically it was fire posting to my thread last week that made me decide to stick with the thread and the game. He does a very good job as a peacemaker on the forums, and I think he understands some of the things going on here better than most because of that.

Very well said. +rep.

[tankofinsanity]

Thanks Shahared for your explanation. It helps to clear some things up. I know that CLs are human and make mistakes just like everybody else, for that reason I try to be understanding. I've just been a bit bitter and angry at the three big thread changes that CLs have made to my posts in the last couple of months. It's very frustrating having to constantly go back to a CSM to get these issues resolved. Ironically, all three times I wrote those posts to help the community, and two of those times I wrote the threads as a fun forum alternative to much of the drama that goes on here. Last week was almost the last straw when I felt humiliated having to stick up for my thread to a CL over the forum and not through PM.

I'm not sure if CLs really understand how much people look up to them on the forums, and I get the feeling that some of them feel they can just act like regular players on here, and say the same things to people they did before they became CL. That's not the case, and most people will always support what a CL says over what any of us say, even if they're talking as a regular player. I think that's the main reason fire started this thread...because CL's have a lot of power and responsibility on here, and he wants them to make sure they know how they are affecting people with the decisions they make.

I understood how thrakx felt at that moment when he found his thread had been closed, how he wanted to quit SotS, at least temporarily. I've felt that same way too. Ironically it was fire posting to my thread last week that made me decide to stick with the thread and the game. He does a very good job as a peacemaker on the forums, and I think he understands some of the things going on here better than most because of that.

a post worthy of reading =O

well said