Need help from other clerics w/ experience

[babykitt10]

Hi,
I max the power of my bash and added 2 to its sp.
I stumbled on this thread were other clerics said that it is mandatory to max the sp and cooldown of heal.

I'm only 22, should I create a new cleric (which is not a bother)
with max Heal(cooldown and sp) or should I walk the path of the basher :confused:

[Gavener]

Bash good for Solo, Less heal cooldown Great for self and Party, Less SP from heal is nice cause heal spam, but im L21 and got heal maxed with cooldown and -sp im thinking of going bash, sense i Solo alot

[Andromeda]

You dont need to create another cleric. You get a skill Point every odd numbered levels as you keep leveling up just add your skill points to heal.

[babykitt10]

How bout the other skills like rev and the other stuff?
anyway i dont see any diffrence between a 5 powered bash and a 0 (lvl 2 bash i dont know bout 3 or 4 or 5)?
and suppose I'm going to lvl my cleric I have to reach lvl 35 to max my heal.
nways do i need my points to "ups" other skills?
and what skill are that?

thx ^_^

[aegrimonia]

The differences are pretty small at Bash[1], but they get magnified over time.. when you get Bash[2] the + will increase more, and will go up and up as you get higher level Bash.

[aegrimonia]

There is no real 'wrong' way to make a cleric.. everyone has their preferences.. I'm personally building my character to be mostly solo.. and i'm mostly all SPR....
people scream that you want END.. but i prefer to kill faster then to stand around longer..

With BASH cooldown at 5, i can bash every 3rd swing.. so it's bash, swing, swing, bash. and with such a high SPR i crit often, and a crit on bash does major damage.

With the extra SPR comes extra SP so i can heal more often, and with the extra SPR i crit more often so i kill faster..

Also i hear a lot of people talking about how Invincible isn't very useful.. but it's EXTREMELY useful..

If i get mobbed by 3 big guys i know i can't stand with, I invincible myself and usually can take out one by the time my invincible dies.. and then it's two on one and i can usually always handle that..

Plus i've upped my invincible, and at a level 1 upgrade, you get an additional 3.8 seconds and that's a long time to not have any damage coming at you. by the time invincible runs out i'm full of HP and SP and usually it's now a battle of just 2 on 1.

I'm a bit obsessed with the high crit fast damage dealing clerics.. i've been playing them for quite a while on multiple MMO's.. we don't have a lot of fancy looking damage skills, but we get the job done.

[babykitt10]

I'm not saying that my skill build is wrong or anything but i would like to know if it is better if i didnt upgrade the power of my bash to 5 and added 2 to it's sp? will this help me in the long run or will the maxed out heal plus +1 longer effect for rev will do the job? and what other skills will i need to empower?
i also heard that bleed and the other smashing skills for lvl 40 is'nt worth the empowerment?

anyway I'm almost a 1:1 end spr build and i love the crits (and looking for a cheap hummer +3 +8% crit ^_^ server Teva)
This is the skilled i empowerd

Bash

power 5
spconsumption 2

Heal

spconsumption 3

BTW I'm only lvl 22 ^_^

[aegrimonia]

I don't think it's wrong or bad at all.. the skill point empowerment only makes minor changes.. so it's not like putting a point here or there is going to make THAT much of a difference..

Yes, clerics who put all their points into heal cooldown can heal faster then I can.. but I personally feel that the other party members should pay more attention to their own health bar.. if i have to heal THAT fast, they aren't looking out for themselves anyway.

You'll be getting more empower points as you level, so it will all even out.. My next few points are going into bash SP reduction personally.

[Aquabelle]

It depends on what you want ot do with your cleric, imho. If you want to solo more; then you deff need to work on Bash. Heal is always a good thing to work on. I have fully upgraded it with 5 points on sp reduction and cooldown; and I wouldn't change it for anything. A lot of people say that the -.9 (might as well be 1s) doesn't effect it enough, but I have the perfect story for how it does, and why it is just that awesome.

My friend & partner in duo-dungeon crime and I were in the Graveyard earlier today; with a mage. I am level 31(I'm a cleric if you haven't figured it out yet xD), my friend (Archer) is level 33, and the mage is 35. We're killing the foxs, one by one really; mage is tanking more then archer.. but I don't really mind, it's not a big deal. Well, sudden we get bombarded with like 3-4 spawns of fox's on top of us. Of course most people would probably panic (which the mage kinda did xD), but we generally kept our cool. Jummie (Archer) was tanking about two of them, the mage (can't remember his name.. sorry! ;~; ) was kinda kiting (still getting pummled, though) one, and I was getting my *** handed to me by two others. We all had our share of times where we came close to death, but not one of us dropped. I kept spamming my heal (5) macro, clicking to whoever needed it most; and switching it for the next person without stopping the spam. It was hectic, but Jummie pretty much picked them off one by one, with some help from the mage when he got a chance, while I kept us all alive. :p
Moral of the story? If I had had to wait .9 more seconds to heal anyone, we would have wiped. Because that anyone was usually me; as I dropped down to 10-50 hp more then once. :D

Soooo.. when anyone says it doesn't make a difference, don't listen; cause that was only the most recent time it's saved my butt. ^^

But anywhoo; I think you are doing fine; by level 30 I would have Bash or Heal capped on sp&cooldown. (Deff both on sp, they will eat a lot of it even after you reduce it..) But that's just me. I actually traded Bash out for Invincible; seeing as I duo more then solo. I have +7.5 seconds added to it's length. Helps in KQ too. :)

[Gravvi]

Ok i have a lvl 25 High cleric. I maxed my bashes cooldown, power and one point in sp. I am going to be dividing the rest into my invincible and heal's sp cost. If u party people should have stones and potions so if i can't heal fast enought they can potion.

But as for my stats. They are really wierd so i will not explain them. I am going to go str and spr with a side of end if i can get my stats reset.

[Diatomic]

I have a lvl 40 Cleric and my build is I put 10 to SPR and the rest will go to END. I found that if the monster can't kill me in one hit, that monster will be dead meat. I found that build to be very useful and I can solo monsters higher lvl than me, as those in uruga. As for skill empower points, I put in 5 for cooldown for bash, 5 for sp consumption and so far 4 for cooldown time for heal, 5 for time duration for invincibility....that is about it. Increasing heal cooldown and sp consumption is a must since as ur heal lvl increases, sp consumption can be a big problem and as for cooldown....u will need it bad if u party and more than 2 players are getting attack, ur party will love u..as for soloing, it helps also. As for invincibility, you will need the increase duration, else it will pretty much be not very useful (IMO). Maxing out on cooldown in bash can make u a more happy soloer....can kill monster a bit faster. =)

[babykitt10]

Guys i got another question here...
does anyone know the formula for the skill bash...

This is what i noticed so far..

0 empowerment on atckpower

lvl 1 Bash normal dmg + 50%
lvl 2 Bash normal dmg + 100%
lvl 3 Bash normal dmg + 150%

5 empowerment on atckpower

lvl 1 Bash normal dmg + 100%
lvl 2 Bash normal dmg + 150%
lvl 3 Bash ?

(my goal here is to find out if a 5powered bash is much more efficient than a 5cooldown bash)

[zendragon]

I have a lvl. 48 Cleric going into 49

For skill empowerment, this is what I do

Heal:
5 points into sp consumption
5 points into cooldown

Bash:
5 points into power
5 points into sp consumption

Restore:
5 points into sp consumption (in progress)

Invincible:
5 points into duration (will add from lvl. 53-61)

I should be done with everything after they raise the lvl cap from 59.
I've found that the empowerments I'll do and have so far are perfect for solo and support in parties.

The 10 points I put into Heal really pay off when I'm grinding in Uruga with parties, especially when our tanker tanks 4-6 mobs at once, the mage aggros and I have to heal all 4 members lol So the cooldown is perfect for chaining together heals and the sp consumption is just awesome.

The 10 points into Bash basically lets me abuse it. Again, at high level grinding in Uruga, you'll need as much dmg as possible.

And a guild member told me 5 points into duration for Invincible adds a total of 7.5sec... that's freaking hax - 8+7.5sec of invincible

[babykitt10]

hmm...

so is it much better to add power over cooldown?

I like your skills ^_^ i do solo alot, and i'm not a big party freak(exp KQ)

can i ask you another question?
well if you use your bash on a monster how many % does a lvl "?" bash add to its dmg?

[aegrimonia]

I'd say cooldown would be more important, because if you get one more bash in, it will offset any extra you would get from the damage increase..

ESPECIALLY if it's a critical hit.

I have BASH maxed on just about all stats, and i can Bash about every 3rd swing.

[NightRyda]

Zen is my hero

[zendragon]

ZOMG, it's Night! I aspire to be like you man.

Did you post here just because the servers were down and had nothing to do? Because I did.

[Kholai]

For a cleric, only two factors matter in the long run whilst facing monsters, both solo and party.

1: How much your heal spell recovers.

You're a cleric, not a fighter. You do not have, nor need, the same amount of HP as an equivalent fighter. All that matters is that you can recover damage faster than your enemies can deal it.

2: How fast your heal spell cools down.

Do not underestimate the improvement offered by a rapid cooldown. Just reducing cooldown from 2.4 to 2.1 can change the level of heal you will require to stay alive versus an enemy. This is especially important when being swarmed. This is almost the same effect as an extra tier of the heal skill; I say almost because it's actually better than having an extra tier of Heal.


All other factors are secondary, even SP reduction for heal. If you don't even touch bash, you be able to kill most enemies if you're diligent in your healing.

Since heal is the best skill a cleric gets, it's also worth dropping the price of using it. With max SP empowerment, Heal 1 costs 4 SP. 4 SP to recover 110 points of damage makes it your best spell to use when not in combat.


Bash speeds up the kill, certainly, but it is not a fast skill, its damage is not amazing, and chances are you'll use more SP killing something with bash than you would using the extra heals from a slower, zero-bashing kill. You pay through the nose for speed.

Generally, the only time bash becomes useful for actual survival in combat is when:

1: Outnumbered. Killing an enemy reduces the damage you take per second by a large proportion.
2: Trying to maintain aggro on yourself. The extra damage has a fairly good track record of distracting monsters from the squishies when there's no tank around.
3: Outclassed. When in the undesirable situation of facing an enemy that out-damages your heal, bash as much as possible, and be prepared to use potions.


So, yes, certainly worthwhile empowering Heal to maximum. Whether you do this over your next twenty levels or start again from scratch is up to you.

On a side note, why on earth would one empower Restore? The spell is nice as a secondary heal spell, if pressed, but honestly I see no reason to empower it over all the other skills a cleric might choose.

[jao_1523]

im new here.. and i will just start playing the game.. im planning of creating a cleric.? will it be nice or will it be hard for me.. actually im thinking if ill make a cleric or an archer.. pls help me.? and what do you think is a better character.. thanks a lot..

[aegrimonia]

For a cleric, only two factors matter in the long run whilst facing monsters, both solo and party.

1: How much your heal spell recovers.

You're a cleric, not a fighter. You do not have, nor need, the same amount of HP as an equivalent fighter. All that matters is that you can recover damage faster than your enemies can deal it.

2: How fast your heal spell cools down.

Do not underestimate the improvement offered by a rapid cooldown. Just reducing cooldown from 2.4 to 2.1 can change the level of heal you will require to stay alive versus an enemy. This is especially important when being swarmed. This is almost the same effect as an extra tier of the heal skill; I say almost because it's actually better than having an extra tier of Heal.


All other factors are secondary, even SP reduction for heal. If you don't even touch bash, you be able to kill most enemies if you're diligent in your healing.

Since heal is the best skill a cleric gets, it's also worth dropping the price of using it. With max SP empowerment, Heal 1 costs 4 SP. 4 SP to recover 110 points of damage makes it your best spell to use when not in combat.


Bash speeds up the kill, certainly, but it is not a fast skill, its damage is not amazing, and chances are you'll use more SP killing something with bash than you would using the extra heals from a slower, zero-bashing kill. You pay through the nose for speed.

Generally, the only time bash becomes useful for actual survival in combat is when:

1: Outnumbered. Killing an enemy reduces the damage you take per second by a large proportion.
2: Trying to maintain aggro on yourself. The extra damage has a fairly good track record of distracting monsters from the squishies when there's no tank around.
3: Outclassed. When in the undesirable situation of facing an enemy that out-damages your heal, bash as much as possible, and be prepared to use potions.


So, yes, certainly worthwhile empowering Heal to maximum. Whether you do this over your next twenty levels or start again from scratch is up to you.

On a side note, why on earth would one empower Restore? The spell is nice as a secondary heal spell, if pressed, but honestly I see no reason to empower it over all the other skills a cleric might choose.

umm.. NO.

Kill faster, get damaged less..
get damaged less.. need heals less..
If i can kill a monster 4 seconds faster then you can, i need 4 seconds of getting attacked LESS Hitpoints.

Trust me.. i solo on orange mobs all the time and survive just fine.

Don't think for a second there is only one way to build a cleric.

and bash is 2x damage (on average) a critical hit for bash does 4x damage (on average).. it is very useful, and greatly speeds the battle.

hey, you can fight slow and economical if you want, the more i kill the better chances i have of getting a good drop, and i dunno about you.. but i like to level as quick as possible.

In fact.. i'm level 31, and haven't even learned heal[5] yet, because i haven't needed it and i think it was available at level 28.

[Gravvi]

My bash I have 5 in power and 5 in cooldown and 1 in sp consumption.
My heal i have 1 in sp consumption
My invincible i have 1 in duration. I am only lvl 27. I am putting the rest in my invincible skill.

[Kholai]

Allow me a moment to bring forth a little mathematical working;

A level 30 cleric attacks a monster. The cleric has 1000 HP, and Bash and Heal. Bash, we shall assume, deals twice as much damage as normal attacks, every fourth attack, and costs 88 SP. Heal restores 500 HP, and costs 57 SP (assuming it to be un-reduced at this time). The clerics normal damage is assumed to be 100.
Assuming the monster has 2000 HP, and also deals 200 damage as fast as the cleric.

Variant 1: The cleric does not use bash at all, and simply attacks. It takes twenty hits to deal with the enemy. The monster deals 4000 damage. Eight heals, costing 456 SP.

Variant 2: The cleric uses bash as often as possible, every fourth hit deals double damage. Sixteen hits. The monster deals 3200 damage. Six heals, costing 342 SP. Four bashes cost 352 also. 694 SP and a saving of four attacks. 238 extra SP, paying almost 60 mana per second saved.

Also bear in mind in variant 2, there is further health loss not healed that I have discounted to cut poor variant 2 a break.

You have, however, mentioned other factors, such as not upgrading heal. This is quite reasonable, though there is a minor delay in recommencing attacks after healing. There is the adjustment of SP consumption by -50% for Heal, which drops the above variants to 228 SP and 523 SP respectively. Certainly, you could reduce Bash's SP cost, but you will never use Bash as often as you use heal.


This comparative economy, however, also does not cover the most important factor, survivability.

Facing a much stronger enemy, with 4000 HP, which deals 200 damage per second, a cleric with only level 5 heal cannot solo it without using potions or stones, even if they bash as often as possible.
Clerics do not have massive hitpoint totals to ignore damage, and they are the slowest, lowest damaging class in the game, they are going to take excessive amounts of damage, and survive it, because they are clerics. Perhaps they may be able to deal enough damage to survive this enemy's attrition in the end, however every three seconds, using heal as much as possible, they will lose 100 HP.

Compare instead, a cleric with level 4 heal, they heal 110 HP less every three seconds. They lose 210 HP every three seconds. Their bash had better be doing a lot better than 4 seconds off the battle, or they cannot destroy this enemy.

If one takes a cleric with level 5 heal, and full cooldown upgrade, then this enemy simply no longer poses a threat. Every 2.1 seconds, the cleric can heal 500 HP, 100 more than they have taken. This cleric can then decide whether to use bash for a faster, but more expensive, battle, or to simply use heal for a slower, cheaper battle. Either way, this cleric is better than the other two variants, because they can kill stronger enemies.

This applies in parties as well, and rewards faster cooldowns even more. That enemy could be killing the party mage without you, or multiple enemies could be damaging the entire party, at which point being able to heal everyone quickly is invaluable.

I am not saying that you cannot play whatever build of character you like; feel free to try and make a pure Int cleric for all that it concerns me, however, a cleric's strength lies in healing, not bashing. Bash is a great ability and I use it all the time, but Heal is hax. Anything that can't outdamage your heal, or kill you outright in the time it takes for Heal to cooldown cannot beat you.

[aegrimonia]

Allow me a moment to bring forth a little mathematical working;

A level 30 cleric attacks a monster. The cleric has 1000 HP, and Bash and Heal. Bash, we shall assume, deals twice as much damage as normal attacks, every fourth attack, and costs 88 SP. Heal restores 500 HP, and costs 57 SP (assuming it to be un-reduced at this time). The clerics normal damage is assumed to be 100.
Assuming the monster has 2000 HP, and also deals 200 damage as fast as the cleric.

Variant 1: The cleric does not use bash at all, and simply attacks. It takes twenty hits to deal with the enemy. The monster deals 4000 damage. Eight heals, costing 456 SP.

Variant 2: The cleric uses bash as often as possible, every fourth hit deals double damage. Sixteen hits. The monster deals 3200 damage. Six heals, costing 342 SP. Four bashes cost 352 also. 694 SP and a saving of four attacks. 238 extra SP, paying almost 60 mana per second saved.

Also bear in mind in variant 2, there is further health loss not healed that I have discounted to cut poor variant 2 a break.

You have, however, mentioned other factors, such as not upgrading heal. This is quite reasonable, though there is a minor delay in recommencing attacks after healing. There is the adjustment of SP consumption by -50% for Heal, which drops the above variants to 228 SP and 523 SP respectively. Certainly, you could reduce Bash's SP cost, but you will never use Bash as often as you use heal.


This comparative economy, however, also does not cover the most important factor, survivability.

Facing a much stronger enemy, with 4000 HP, which deals 200 damage per second, a cleric with only level 5 heal cannot solo it without using potions or stones, even if they bash as often as possible.
Clerics do not have massive hitpoint totals to ignore damage, and they are the slowest, lowest damaging class in the game, they are going to take excessive amounts of damage, and survive it, because they are clerics. Perhaps they may be able to deal enough damage to survive this enemy's attrition in the end, however every three seconds, using heal as much as possible, they will lose 100 HP.

Compare instead, a cleric with level 4 heal, they heal 110 HP less every three seconds. They lose 210 HP every three seconds. Their bash had better be doing a lot better than 4 seconds off the battle, or they cannot destroy this enemy.

If one takes a cleric with level 5 heal, and full cooldown upgrade, then this enemy simply no longer poses a threat. Every 2.1 seconds, the cleric can heal 500 HP, 100 more than they have taken. This cleric can then decide whether to use bash for a faster, but more expensive, battle, or to simply use heal for a slower, cheaper battle. Either way, this cleric is better than the other two variants, because they can kill stronger enemies.

This applies in parties as well, and rewards faster cooldowns even more. That enemy could be killing the party mage without you, or multiple enemies could be damaging the entire party, at which point being able to heal everyone quickly is invaluable.

I am not saying that you cannot play whatever build of character you like; feel free to try and make a pure Int cleric for all that it concerns me, however, a cleric's strength lies in healing, not bashing. Bash is a great ability and I use it all the time, but Heal is hax. Anything that can't outdamage your heal, or kill you outright in the time it takes for Heal to cooldown cannot beat you.

I do like that you are looking at this scientifically, but 'you'll certainly never use bash as often as you use heal' is a false statement.

I use Bash every 3rd or 4th swing, depending on the timing and what is going on at the time. I use heal maybe 2x a fight.. more of course if it's a particularly tough monster, or if i'm particularly unlucky with critical hits that time around.

I guess the other question is.. Why WOULDN'T you use stones or pots? you act as if clerics shouldn't use them? it turns us into nearly unstoppable machines..

and if i get bogged down and overpowered by 3 or 4 mobs, invincibility buys me enough time to cut the mob to a more manageable one.

The only way the argument could ever be settled is if two clerics of the same level with the same equipment fought a certain number of the same mobs, or fought mobs of the same level for the same amount of time, and find out who comes out ahead.

but in the end the answer is going to be.. who cares? You're happy with your build, i'm happy with mine.. if we're happy with our characters.. that's all that matters.

[Kholai]

I believe we face off against different monsters, I'm spending most of my time at the moment in the Vine Tomb, against single and large groups of monsters that are deep red to me, and deal large amounts of damage. Healing regularly serves to keep aggro on me instead of the famous Maiya, and since lower level heals are more SP efficient than high level heals, I keep three hotkeys dedicated to different level heals that restore an appropriately high amount of damage to outheal an enemy, and heal as and when necessary to keep healthy.
You are certainly correct, against a lower levelled enemy, healing is far less necessary, but unless I'm feeling fragile or looking for something, I'd rather face a horde tougher reds and oranges than greens and yellows, though Bash does help speed-killing more when the cleric soloes against more level appropriate enemies than just heal alone.

I guess the other question is.. Why WOULDN'T you use stones or pots? you act as if clerics shouldn't use them?

Then you seem to have misunderstood. I use HP stones and SP potions frequently, and think they're vital things to have. But it offends my sensibilities to feel that I would have to use them to defeat something, especially as part of regular levelling. I'm just cheap that way.

and if i get bogged down and overpowered by 3 or 4 mobs, invincibility buys me enough time to cut the mob to a more manageable one.

And I'm sure using bash against the individual monsters to trim them down works just as well as I mentioned in my original post. :)

You're happy with your build, i'm happy with mine.. if we're happy with our characters.. that's all that matters.

That I certainly agree with, people should try whatever they think best. Hopefully I've given a good reason for Babykitt to consider how important the heal spell is, and to decide what best to do with their character.

[babykitt10]

Wow This is nice ^_^ 2 of the best helping me. Thx alot guys

Well i decided to create a new char and it's already lvl 29

here is my skill build

Heal:
5 points into sp consumption
2 points into cooldown (still working on it)

Bash:
5 points into sp consumption (still thinking if power or CD is much efficient)

Restore:
1 point into sp consumption

Invincible:
1 point into duration

At my current lvl I dont need that much heal(cooldown) specially when i go solo.

BTW if I'm in a party i dont use BASH that often.
And if I'm Grinding I use BASH alot.
I always use Restore or heal to cancel the bash animation.

I feel kinda sleepy now so I'll continue this later :p thx guys ^___^

[soysauce2rice]

Heh i feel the same thing. I don't like to waste HP/SP stones on regular leveling, that's how cheap i am. I rest at any chance i get :P

For me on the skills.. I empowered 3 so far.
Heal
5 cooldown
5 SP consumption (from 5 skills, i'm pretty sure it halves SP cost of the original)

Bash
1 SP consumption (accident :P)
4 Overpower (need 1 more point)

I'm overpowering bash so that i can use it to make it as a final blow to a monster. I assume i cna hit 200 or maybe even more on a monster with little HP left. Now i dunno about a red monster because I miss a bit too often so I'm still messing around with bash.

[dericcyk]

hmm don't have enough points to try out much

current sp consumption and cooldown for heal 5/5
bash power 2

level 26 i think i'll go with the cooldown, and make my character end/spr, i should have the sp to spare if i go high spr

anyhow, one question, can one skill only be empowered 10 times?

if not why not sp consumption, cooldown and power bash?

[Kholai]

Dericcyk: Power and Cooldown, perhaps. SP consumption.... Not really in my opinion. When you're in a party, especially with a mage, bash is unimportant. Your job is not to deal the damage, it's to take it and allow others to take it.
Instead, those 5 extra empower points could be used on another skill, even on your later damage skills, Trip or Bleed, to increase their damage or cooldown (certainly they're not good at the moment compared to Bash, but they're better than attacking normally).
Heal is ultimately a more spammable skill, and in kingdom quests and party situations, the reduced strain on your SP is eminently noticable, especially if you're into healing more than bash.

However, if you use a bash-heavy solo character, perhaps bash will be worth reducing the SP of. Be wary of having all your eggs in one basket though.


Soysauce: Narcoleptic clerics forever! I sleep when the party chooses another target. I sleep when I make someone invincible. I sleep whilst heal is cooling down....
I even sleep when I'm mid-combat sometimes, and just take a hit so I can recover enough SP for two more heals, rather than use a potion. :D

[soysauce2rice]

Well what I'm doing now if keeping 5 skill points and when i go to empower, i highlight before i empower my skill to see how each skill point affects it. I don't plan on using any just yet but it's nice to know the effects.

[hailflex2]

well... how much time it reduces from Invincible cooldown if u add 1-5 points??
what about the buff duration for 1-5 points??

[dericcyk]

hmm true about all the eggs in 1 basket, empowerment can be used better in other places