A question of taunt skills

[paradoxtwin1]

does anyone actualy know exactly how much they boost your aggro by?

as near as i can tell aggro is based on whoever does the highest amount of damage per hit, therefore tuant would have to act as though it gave you the highest damage even if you didn't

so my question is does anyone actualy know how much equivalent damage each level of mock/kick give you? once used how much damage does someone have to cause before the taunt affect no longer works? and also what is its duration even if someone doesnt manage to do more damage it has to run out eventualy?

[mehe25]

How much it boosts your aggro by?: A lot.

[legendking3]

some skill also have a higher aggro (magic burst, most archer skills, deva, heal) so while dmg is also a part of it, there are other factors taken into consideration.

and it only takes 2-3 magic bursts to take aggro from a figher who deva and mocked at the same time.

[paradoxtwin1]

How much it boosts your aggro by?: A lot. oh how very helpful, i'm more looking for anyone who has actualy tried to research into it.


some skill also have a higher aggro (magic burst, most archer skills, deva, heal) so while dmg is also a part of it, there are other factors taken into consideration.

and it only takes 2-3 magic bursts to take aggro from a figher who deva and mocked at the same time.

it isn't dependant on the skill but on the amount of damage one causes i beleive

that would be the only reason why certain people pull aggro away from mock easier, of a similar high level i use mock with my wife (a mage) and then sit in the house to heal while she spams aoe and all other skills against monsters when im not in party to get her more exp. means they arnt atacking her so im just a temporary shield to stop her from getting hurt by tough mobs, and no matter how many or which skills she uses she cant pull aggro until my mock wears off.

this is only using a level 2 mock, if i use level one it only holds aggro until she atacks them, even if she uses a low level skill as long as it does damage high enough it will pull aggro so it isnt dependant on the skill.

and the reason clerics draw aggro is because in a monsters eyes the heal spell is like an attack, so if the amount a cleric heals is a higher amount than mock can hold or a DD can damge then the cleric will draw aggro, so it has nothing to do with what skill is used as to how much aggro is generated but the actual amount each skill does either damage or healing that generates the aggro

[globule]

I do not have any answers for you, but personnaly I like to refer to aggro as 'threat level'.

Taunt and Mock increases 'artificially' the threat level.
Doing damage increases threat level.
Healing indirectly increase threat level [from the point of view of the monster].

Now as you point out there is clearly some amount of 'threat' involved with the various actions.
It is pretty hard to quantify however, but as you point out, mock[1] does not seem very high as you lose aggro the minute your partner attacks, while mock[2] seems much higher as you keep it even if you shrooms and your partner attacks.

[Dthugtherealist]

hmmmmm the effectiveness of mock it needs to be stronger with axe I hold agro tightly I only mock if needed with my S/S I realize the deficiencies well the 1h is still +8 cuz thats how I got it but the crit rate also needs to b higher as well as the dmg output from the 1h I might put points into mock L8er to combat the low dmg out put of the 1h. Pros of 1h/shield high def/magic def makes healing easier for the cleric but for other classes its a threat and for the tanker problems. Pros of axe High dmg to maintain threat lvl but low def/magic def so ure allways needing a cleric. Im all 9ed with axe and I got 1h/shield just for TR +8 1h hoping to be +9 1 day and +9 shield Im still getting used to this form of Tanking but I have noticed so far that axe is better in PT's and shield is better for soloing and duo's with mages. As for mock to increase its power only way to do it is buying blue sets like blood set and Morale set seriously tho they need to make mock better so the fighters that Tank can do their job :/

[paradoxtwin1]

I do not have any answers for you, but personnaly I like to refer to aggro as 'threat level'.

i only refered to it as aggro here as it is what alot of other people would call it and tends to be a general term for it in most mmorpgs, but yes youre right it can also be called threat level


hmmmmm the effectiveness of mock it needs to be stronger with axe I hold agro tightly I only mock if needed with my S/S I realize the deficiencies well the 1h is still +8 cuz thats how I got it but the crit rate also needs to b higher as well as the dmg output from the 1h I might put points into mock L8er to combat the low dmg out put of the 1h. Pros of 1h/shield high def/magic def makes healing easier for the cleric but for other classes its a threat and for the tanker problems. Pros of axe High dmg to maintain threat lvl but low def/magic def so ure allways needing a cleric. Im all 9ed with axe and I got 1h/shield just for TR +8 1h hoping to be +9 1 day and +9 shield Im still getting used to this form of Tanking but I have noticed so far that axe is better in PT's and shield is better for soloing and duo's with mages. As for mock to increase its power only way to do it is buying blue sets like blood set and Morale set seriously tho they need to make mock better so the fighters that Tank can do their job :/

not only was that difficult to understand but you wern't on topic at all, i wasn't asking what is a good way to mock or even how to make mock better, i am asking if anyone knoew the effectiveness of mock at its base levels and how much aggro it can hold asuming that aggro is based off damage amount.

so while i thank you for your input this should have nothing to do with gear

[legendking3]

as i said earlier aggro isnt soloy based on dmg amount.

mages can fighter all their single target skills on a mocked mob without succeding in taking aggro, while they can fire their magic burst (a lot lower dmg) a couple times to take it. this clearly shows there are other factors in this. i'm only 70 so i havent been able to use inferno and nova suffiecintly enough to be accurate on this (mostly cuz i also use magic burst) but it seems that inferno also has a high aggro, while nova has a medium aggro, and their actual dmg is within a 40 points difference.

conisdering this is only observation from every day playing, some testing would be required to be able to accuratly measure any of this.

[paradoxtwin1]

as i stated earlier it isnt based off skills or my wife would be able to steal aggro from me with magic burst like you say, which she couldnt, so i would say that if you can then it is because you are stronger than her and do more damage with it not because of the skill you are usingi have tested it atleast alittle with wife to see if it was skill based but it doesnt matter what level or type the skills are it seems to be based upon the damage instead

[A_geezy]

does anyone actualy know exactly how much they boost your aggro by?


forty-seven

[legendking3]

as i stated earlier it isnt based off skills or my wife would be able to steal aggro from me with magic burst like you say, which she couldnt, so i would say that if you can then it is because you are stronger than her and do more damage with it not because of the skill you are usingi have tested it atleast alittle with wife to see if it was skill based but it doesnt matter what level or type the skills are it seems to be based upon the damage instead

ah but if she kills the mob without grabbing aggro then wouldnt that mean you would of had to do more dmg? with mock alone that would be impossible, since fighters my lvl loss aggro in seconds when using both mock and deva.

and trust me you overpowered fighters have WAY more dmg then a mage does, so outdmging aint happening.

[paradoxtwin1]

ah but if she kills the mob without grabbing aggro then wouldnt that mean you would of had to do more dmg? with mock alone that would be impossible, since fighters my lvl loss aggro in seconds when using both mock and deva.

and trust me you overpowered fighters have WAY more dmg then a mage does, so outdmging aint happening.

actualy i wasn't attacking them at all, we were in lvl 70 abyss in one of the smaller side rooms without being in a party together, then all i was doing to them was mock, demorolizing hit (only drops their damage) and then going into my house to heal the damage while they attacked me (this is all just coz mages stone supply is crappy, this way she doesnt have to leave as often to restone on hp) specificaly didnt damage them so that i wouldnt get any of the exp so she would receive all of it.

and when using mock and deva, deva on its own isnt actualy one of the fighters more damaging skils, against a large mob a mage of equal level can easily out damage it with the first hit of inferno since the first hit does more damage than the subsequent hits of the cursed ground it leaves behind, and so other than the single target that the fighter starts hitting with its single target more powerful skills a mage could easily pull the rest away, so yes deva isnt great for holding aggro on its own because aggro still only has a limited duration if you arnt attacking something, and so after stun wears off from deva if the fighter isnt continuing to attack them after those 5-8 seconds eventualy anyone could take the aggro

[gryphkat]

Demo also grabs/holds aggro. Not as much as mock, but enough that it could be what is skewing your perspective.

When I pull on my tank, i use both demo and mock because the aggro builds higher, I have less CD between aggro skills, and when i return to my party it's easier to hold aggro against the DDs. Same with tanking bosses in KQ. Rotating Mock, Kick, and Demo allows a tank-build fighter to hold aggro against even the strongest DDs. I could stand in a corner with KKP on me, spam those three skills and do nothing else, and I would still hold aggro, unless there were an archer constantly critting him with DOT skills (in which case using skills with a debuff effect would allow me to continue to hold him).
The aggro of demo is based on it's lasting debuff effect on the mobs.

Any skill that has a continuing effect (DOTs, debuffs, ect) will automatically draw higher aggro than a skill that doesn't, regardless of it's ability/amount of damage. The only exceptions to this rule are Mock and Kick, because they are designed specifically to raise threat level and keep aggro.

So, the reason YOUR threat level remains higher than your wife's, regardless of damage, is because HER damage and any DOT she may be using is not overpowering the lvl of your Mock AND Demo debuff, not just the amount of your Mock.

If you want a more accurate test of this, try mocking for her without the demo, and see if your aggro still holds in the same circumstances.

[cercia]

In a completely different thread, now buried somewhere, there was a discussion as to all the factors that contributed to aggro level.

You have only provided us with two of these factors - that you are Mocking and Demoralizing, and that your wife is attacking.

In the other thread, they hypothesized that time is a factor; that aggro decreases at a set rate over time, which is why archers can build up and take aggro with only a single DoT against a single Mock/Kick.

They also hypothesized that the threat level increase is the level of the Mock/Kick * your level. Ie, if you use Mock [2] at level 50, your threat level increases by 100. There are no experiments to confirm this, and the corollary was that 1 dmg = +1 threat level.

Healing skills draw aggro, with the stronger heals drawing more aggro.

AoEs are known to draw more aggro than single hit skills, with Magic Burst being nicknamed "Mage Mock," because it generates high levels of aggro.

Debuffs, such as Demoralizing Blow, are known to draw aggro during their duration.

As such, it is near confirmed that damage is not the primary factor of aggro, though it is a contributor.

Your wife's build is important. Her level is important. The skills she uses are important. The frequency she uses said skills is important. Your level is important. If you do anything, anything at all, other than Mock/Demo, that is important. The time it takes to kill the mobs is important.

There are simply too many factors to be able to explain what is happening.

[Madcharo]

does anyone actualy know exactly how much they boost your aggro by?

as near as i can tell aggro is based on whoever does the highest amount of damage per hit, therefore tuant would have to act as though it gave you the highest damage even if you didn't

so my question is does anyone actualy know how much equivalent damage each level of mock/kick give you? once used how much damage does someone have to cause before the taunt affect no longer works? and also what is its duration even if someone doesnt manage to do more damage it has to run out eventualy?

I don't think anyone has actually done extensive research on how much a Snearing Kick or Mock equals in damage. All I know is that Mock and Snearing Kick both have a set time limit. I know this because if you aggro a monster that doesn't automaticly aggro you, it will get bored after a short while and walk away. I'll check what the exact time is in a moment.

[paradoxtwin1]

In a completely different thread, now buried somewhere, there was a discussion as to all the factors that contributed to aggro level.

You have only provided us with two of these factors - that you are Mocking and Demoralizing, and that your wife is attacking.

In the other thread, they hypothesized that time is a factor; that aggro decreases at a set rate over time, which is why archers can build up and take aggro with only a single DoT against a single Mock/Kick.

They also hypothesized that the threat level increase is the level of the Mock/Kick * your level. Ie, if you use Mock [2] at level 50, your threat level increases by 100. There are no experiments to confirm this, and the corollary was that 1 dmg = +1 threat level.

Healing skills draw aggro, with the stronger heals drawing more aggro.

AoEs are known to draw more aggro than single hit skills, with Magic Burst being nicknamed "Mage Mock," because it generates high levels of aggro.

Debuffs, such as Demoralizing Blow, are known to draw aggro during their duration.

As such, it is near confirmed that damage is not the primary factor of aggro, though it is a contributor.

Your wife's build is important. Her level is important. The skills she uses are important. The frequency she uses said skills is important. Your level is important. If you do anything, anything at all, other than Mock/Demo, that is important. The time it takes to kill the mobs is important.

There are simply too many factors to be able to explain what is happening.

finaly someone who knows what they are talking about and has explained alittle better how it works to me

essentialy it seems there are just too many factors to ever judge exactly what raises what for levels of aggro... if that is indeed how it all works that any and all actions cause aggro, and there fore not as simple a case as working out how much the tuant skills raise it by but actualy a case of also working out how much every other action in the game raises it by to give an accurate measurement of how well it works...

[allyyCORE]

I do not have any answers for you, but personnaly I like to refer to aggro as 'threat level'.

Taunt and Mock increases 'artificially' the threat level.
Doing damage increases threat level.
Healing indirectly increase threat level [from the point of view of the monster].

Now as you point out there is clearly some amount of 'threat' involved with the various actions.
It is pretty hard to quantify however, but as you point out, mock[1] does not seem very high as you lose aggro the minute your partner attacks, while mock[2] seems much higher as you keep it even if you shrooms and your partner attacks.

Agreed, it's not the damage you should be keeping count, it's the 'threat level'.

A cleric proves to be more dangerous to a mob because they keep the damage dealer alive, which answers why a mob would switch opponents amidst battle.

[legendking3]

finaly someone who knows what they are talking about and has explained alittle better how it works to me

essentialy it seems there are just too many factors to ever judge exactly what raises what for levels of aggro... if that is indeed how it all works that any and all actions cause aggro, and there fore not as simple a case as working out how much the tuant skills raise it by but actualy a case of also working out how much every other action in the game raises it by to give an accurate measurement of how well it works...

didnt he just reword what i said, with adding a little to it... either way i didnt know the debuff part so i did learn something as well (also explains as why archers have such insanely high aggro)