Fighter: Pure END & Pure STR, a comparison [Archive]

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Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-28-2009, 06:50 PM

Well, this will be a very long and in-depth thread about the effects that free stats have on the fighter class.

We all know that STR fighters deal more DMG and END fighters less, but how much more and how much less exactly? There has been much debate, and I'm not here to say which is better. I have my own Lv 89 Pure END tank and I love that build, but I don't want to debate that here. This is a comparison to allow people to make their own choice in the matter, using real, in-game numbers, not maths based on our stats.

Keep in mind, Free stat points are much more effective than they seem to be. The stat window does not tell the whole story about them. On average, I would say that +1 to free stat END or STR is about equal to 5 regular stats.

The method is this:
I made 2 fighters, one Pure STR and the other Pure END. Leveled them both to an equal level and had them attack the same mobs with the same gear equipped. The only difference is their individual stat builds, I literally took the equips off of one and transferred them to the other, they even have the same pet.

Now, I took each out and attacked a mob using both +9 green weapons and +0 white weapons. I used an axe and a 1 handed sword, so four weapons in total. I recorded how much damage on average I did to that mob, with screenies for proof, and how much damage that mob dealt to me. This allows us to see the full offensive and defensive effects of the two stat builds. While there is an element of randomness in real in-game numbers, I average these numbers out once, and then again, making them pretty reliable.

This will be a long, ongoing thread with massive amounts of data. I have the comparisons for Lv 25 END and STR builds complete. I will soon add Lv 30, Lv 35, and eventually Lv 40 , so we can track how the builds and their effects might change as the fighters level up.

So, there is a lot of data here. If you want the meat of it, just read the stats in Boldface type. I will explain the fourmulae now, if it gets boring, just skip ahead to the next post.

The Damage dealt to Damage taken Ratio is something I mostly did in my head lol. Keep in mind the numbers are almost right, give or take 0.2.

The Average Damage is simply the average of the dmg of the +9 weapon and the +0 weapon. Having all +9 DMg would tilt the results towards the END build, and would not be realistic. This is calculated as: (+9 weapon DMG) + (+0 Weapon DMG) / 2.

The Avg DMG adjusted for critical rate is the Average DMG with a mathematical addition of a crit rate, this is more accurate than the Average DMG. it is calculated as: (Avg DMG) * (Xcritical + 100) / 100

The average DMG taken changes very little.

The average DMG taken adjusted for Shield Block Rate is just that. It is more accurate than the Avg DMG taken. It is calculated as: (AVG DMG taken) * (X shield block rate - 100) / 100.

Survivability is how many hits that character with those equips could take from that mob before dieing. This is assuming they are not healed at all. This is calculated: (Max HP) / (AVG dMG adj shield block) rounded up to the next whole number.

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-28-2009, 06:50 PM

END v STR comparison data:

Lv 25 END
----

Vs GOLD SLIME

+9 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
AVG DMG Dealt: 209
AVG DMG taken: 22
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGS.jpg
DMG Dealt to taken ratio: 10:1

-

White 1 hand

(Using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 165
Avg DMG taken: 19
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGS2.jpg
DMG Delt to taken ratio: 8:1

-

Average DMG : 187
Avg DMG adjusted for 6% crit: 198

Avg DMG taken: 20
Avg DMG taken adjusted for 7% Shield Block rate: 18.6

Total HP: 1030
Avg DMG taken: 18.6
Survivability: 56 hits

----------
Lv 25 STR

Vs GOLD SLIME

+9 1hand

(Using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG Dealt: 252
AVG DMG taken: 31
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGS3.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ratio: 8.3:1

-

White 1hand

(Using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 212
Avg DMG taken: 34
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGS4.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ration 7:1

-

Average DMG: 232
AVG DMG adjusted for 6% crit rate: 246

AVG DMG taken: 32
AVG DMG adjusted for 4% shield block rate: 30.7

Total HP: 880
Avg DMG taken: 30.7
Survivability: 29 hits
------

END Shield survivability: +27 hits
STR dealt 25% more DMG
END took 39% less DMG

-------------------------------------------------------

Lv 25 END AXE
----

Vs GOLD SLIME

(using Normal attack)
+9 Lv 20 AXE

AVG DMG dealt: 154
Avg DMG taken: 28
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGS.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ratio: 5.5:1

-

White AXE

Avg DMG Dealt: 89
Avg DMG taken: 29
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGS2.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ratio: 3.1:1

Average DMG: 122
Avg DMG adjusted for 9% crit rate: 133

Total HP: 990
AVG DMG taken: 29
Survivability: 35

-------
--
Lv 25 STR AXE

+9 Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 200
Avg DMG taken: 43
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGS3.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ratio: 4.8:1

-

White AXE

Avg DMg dealt: 133
Avg DMG taken: 44
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGS4.jpg
DMG dealt to taken ratio: 3:1

-

Average DMG: 167
AVG DMG adjusted for 9% crit rate: 181

Total HP 840
AVG DMG taken: 44
Survivability: 20

--

END AXE survivability +15 hits
STR dealt 33% more DMG
END took 32% less DMG

--------------------------------------------

Lv 25 END

vs GLOW WOLF

+9 Lv 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 202
Avg DMG taken: 25
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGW.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 8:1

-

White 1hand

(Using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 162
Avg DMG taken: 26
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGW2.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 6.2:1

--

Average DMG: 183
Avg DMG adj for 6% crit: 193
Avg DMG taken adj for 7% shield block: 24.2

Total HP: 1030
Avg DMG taken: 24.2
survivability: 43 hits

-------------------

Lv 25 STR

vs GLOW WOLF

+9 Lv 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 227
Avg DMG taken: 42
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGW3.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 5.2:1

-

White LV 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 186
Avg DMG taken: 38
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handGW4.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 4.5:1

--

Average DMG: 207
AVD DMG adj for 6% crit: 219
Avg DMG taken adj for 4% shield block: 38.4

Total HP: 880
Avg DMG taken: 38.4
Survivability: 23 hits

---

END Shield survivability: + 20 hits
STR dealt 14% more DMG
END took 40% less DMG

----------------

Lv 25 END AXE

vs GLOW WOLF

+9 Lv 20 AXE

(using Normal Attacks)
Avg DMG dealt: 185
Avg DMG taken: 32
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGW.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 4.6:1
-

White Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 80
Avg DMG taken: 37
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGW2.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG Taken ratio: 2:1

--

Average DMG: 133
Avg DMG adj for 9% crit rate: 145

Total HP: 990
Avg DMG taken: 35
Survivability: 29 hits

---------

Lv 25 STR AXE

+9 Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 186
Avg DMG taken: 53
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGW3.jpg
DGM dealt to DMG taken ratio: 3.6:1

-

White Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 120
Avg DMG taken: 46
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/25axeGW4.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 2.8:1

--

Average DMG: 153
Avg DMG adj for 9% crit: 167

Total HP: 840
Avg DMG taken: 49
Survivability: 18 hits

-------------

END AXE Survivability: + 11 hits
STR dealt 15% more DMG
END took 23% less DMG

---------------------------------------

VS BAT

Lv 25 END

+9 1hand sword Lv 20

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 175
Avg DMG taken: 29
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handBat.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 6:1

-

White Lv 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 136
Avg DMG taken: 26
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handBat2.jpg
DMG dealt to DMg taken ratio: 5.1:1

-

Average DMG: 156
Avg DMG adj for 6% crit: 165
Avg DMG taken adj for 7% shield block: 26

Total HP: 1030
Avg DMG taken: 26
Survivability: 40 hits

----

Lv 25 STR

+9 Lv 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 208
Avg DMG taken: 42
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handBat3.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken Ratio: 3.9:1

--

White Lv 20 1hand

(using Fatal Slash)
Avg DMG dealt: 171
Avg DMG taken: 38
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg210/twentyninerooks/Fighter%20project/251handBat4.jpg
DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 4.5:1

----

Average DMG: 190
Avg DMG adj for 6% crit rate: 201
Avg DMG taken adj for 4% shield block: 38

Total HP 880
Avg DMG taken: 38
Survivability: 24 hits

-------------

END/Shield survivability: + 16 hits
STR dealt 33% more DMG
END took 33% less DMG

-------------------------

Lv 25 END AXE

vs BAT

+9 Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 134
Avg DMG taken: 42

DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 3.2:1

-

White Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 70
Avg DMG taken: 41

DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 1.7:1

--

Average DMG: 102
Avg DMG adj for 9% crit: 111

Total HP: 990
Avg DMG taken: 42
Survivability: 24 hits

------------

Lv 25 STR

vs BAT

+9 Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 166
Avg DMG taken: 49

DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 3.4:1

-

White Lv 20 AXE

Avg DMG dealt: 109
Avg DMG taken: 58

DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio: 1.9:1

--

Average DMG: 138
Avg DMG adj for 9% crit: 150

Total HP: 840
Avg DMG taken: 54
Survivability: 16 hits

----

END AXE Survivablility: +8 hits
STR dealt 32% more DMG
END took 22% less DMG
---------

I guess you can only have 20 images to one post.... who knew? So, no images of the Axes on Bats, sorry.

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-28-2009, 06:51 PM

I will talk more about my methodology later, long with the Lv 30 update. The mobs will be Bats, Zombies, and Goblins.

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-28-2009, 06:52 PM

One more after this one

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-28-2009, 06:52 PM

Reserved for conclutions.

mehe25

03-28-2009, 07:03 PM

I like the data, it seems odd......but it has to be true.

OmniXeon

03-29-2009, 11:09 PM

I have to give you props for doing all of that lol. Some people always seem to think they can make up a free stat with gears, which in my opinion is not completely true.

Galdrath

03-29-2009, 11:22 PM

i would like to see how a hybrid stacks up to these numbers.
current;y lvl 37 STR+27 END+10 SPR+5

Chaola

03-30-2009, 01:32 AM

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

03-30-2009, 06:57 AM

I'm curious as to see your fighters against red mobs, where the damage difference should be the most...

If you need data from a level 89 pure STR, I can compile some...

Edit :

Something is not right... Against a bat, a yellow mob for a level 25 if I'm not mistaken, both of them do less damage with the axe than with the 1h ?

Edit2 :

The damage line seems about right : high as the level of the mobs is lower or higher, and not that noticeable as its near. But your data on the bat seem fishy ._.

Edit 3 :

Re-read and compared all your data, even made a <censured for little innocent minds> table, and the damage with the axe is ALWAYS lower than the damage with the 1h

I think I'm going crazy.

LOL

Ok with the 1hand I used the Fatal Slash skill, while I used Normal attacks with the axes. This is why the DMG is "Higher" with the 1 hand. I want to mix in skill usage to help balance out the field of data, because after Lv 60 fighter mostly just spam skills, and rarely rely on their normal attacks. For the Lv 30 comparison, Both the 1 hand and Axe will use normal attacks, and for the Lv 40 comparison both will use skills while having Vitality active.

This is not a comparison of 1 hands vs axes lol, but a comparison of the builds.

Chaola

03-30-2009, 07:33 AM

Gah, but how can you compare truly builds if the damage is affected by the skill ? o.o

Did you reduce the additional damage of the skill to the damage produced ? o.o

Edit : oh, nvm, I see now ._. *bangs head on desk*

bigj3234

03-30-2009, 12:54 PM

LOL.
Poor Chaola.

Well done Rooks.

I would be interested to see how the 25SPR builds handle all this testing.

Chaola

03-31-2009, 12:32 AM

LOL.
Poor Chaola.

Go on, rub it in my face -.-

Well done Rooks.

I would be interested to see how the 25SPR builds handle all this testing.

It's pure STR against pure END ._.

For once that my build is looked into, don't ask to do it for 25 SPR too, they got enough attention already >.<

bigj3234

03-31-2009, 11:03 AM

It's pure STR against pure END ._.

For once that my build is looked into, don't ask to do it for 25 SPR too, they got enough attention already >.<

LOL. My bad.

By the way, I know that this particular thread is only for the pure builds, I was just thinking aloud... so to speak :)

savaro

04-02-2009, 11:45 AM

am i just stupid or is it pure str lvl 25:

30 x 1.2 = +36str = +36damage

Pure end lvl 25:

30 x 5 = + 150hp
30 x 0.5 = +15def
30 x 0.1 = 3% blockrate

Ofcourse the benifits of pure end slightly decrease cause you get after 50points in end only 0.05%extra blockrate for a point.

Maybe am wrong but in my vieuw its just that the pure str one does 36extra damage with all the weps and the pure end takes 15less + blocks 3/100 hits

on lvl 89 you then have:

pure str: 104str

104 x 1.2 = 124.8 extra damage with all weps.

pure end:

104 x 5 = 520extra hp
104 x 0.5 = 52extra def means takes 52less damage a hit.
50 x 0.1 = 5%blockrate + 54 x 0.05 = 2.7% = 7.7% blockrate

I dun see why it makes difference comparing the stats with different weapons.

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

04-03-2009, 09:15 AM

Ok as I said in the OP, there are hidden effects to the Free stat points. The are much more effective than they appear by looking at the free stat window.... This is obvious if you actually look at the numbers from each sample.

The stats in the character window reflected a +10% DMg advantage for the STR build, and about 5% DEF for the END, but the real, in-game numbers reflect much more than that.

elderis150

04-17-2009, 02:50 PM

U really worked with this thread and its good
Keep working hard!

daword123

04-19-2009, 07:27 AM

true Free sats. make u build realy different... STR can do lot more dmg.. and END can take much more dmg.. good post i like it..

MattS2Rachel

04-19-2009, 04:19 PM

pure end would rock with helgait axe

magiceva

04-19-2009, 11:46 PM

nice post, i like your analysis method.
By looking at the statistics, I guess pure end can't beat pure str in turns of DMG dealt to DMG taken ratio
However, this is a test with lvl25 data and it's based on 1vs1 model.
In reality, when you reach lvl50+, fighters prefer to take more mobs at a time to make use of their Deva AOE skill.
In this case, let's say I tank 5 mobs, it's like I fire once and take 2-3 hits. So, I believe the end fighter will look better in this senario. The more mobs a tank take, I believe, the better ratio for the end fighter.

A_geezy

04-21-2009, 05:47 PM

Stingerdan

04-21-2009, 05:52 PM

End Fighters ftw.

Morok

04-21-2009, 07:11 PM

All in all, it's not really worth the time to try and put this all together the way you're going. Plain and simple- END fighters will have more HP, but defense suffers after a while and is insignificant to the effect of 1 +9 armor on a STR fighter (check this, a pure str fighter with 1 +9 item will have more defense than a pure END fighter with 0 +9 items).

END is only effective on paper if you figure in the affects of block rate, which would tell you that you are better off going 1:1 end:dex to maximize the chance of evading an attack.

Any stat works for any fighter other than INT as long as your hybrid (not 4 statted).

End Fighters ftw.

END/SPR fighters for the victory :D

Twenty-Nine_Rooks

04-21-2009, 08:47 PM

This comparison is fail in several places:

The calculation for crit damage as the limits approach infinite is this:

(B + (1.2S + D)) + X(2)(B + (1.2S + D))

Where B = Base damage, S = strength in free stats, & X = crit percentage as a decimal.
_________________________________________________

The damage done in terms of averages cannot be counted up using basic addition, you need a rate of change type derivative function to express the variance in damage per hit.

Fatal slash for instance deals x~y amount of damage, you're equation must reflect that variance if you're going to try and make sense of the numbers you collected.
__________________________________________________

Survivability ratio is fudged up because it fails to account for the mobs' varying defenses. <- Basically, the data you provided for glow wolves means nothing in comparison to the data you will collect for goblins, pixies, orcs, trumpies, nixes, JTs etc.
-------------------------------------------

All in all, it's not really worth the time to try and put this all together the way you're going. Plain and simple- END fighters will have more HP, but defense suffers after a while and is insignificant to the effect of 1 +9 armor on a STR fighter (check this, a pure str fighter with 1 +9 item will have more defense than a pure END fighter with 0 +9 items).

END is only effective on paper if you figure in the affects of block rate, which would tell you that you are better off going 1:1 end:dex to maximize the chance of evading an attack.

1) No, your calculations for DMG on +STR free stats is wrong. If you would read my post you would see that there are hidden effects to Free Stats. All the data I collect supports this. Using a simple +1.25 value for a single STR free stat is insufficient. The correct way is the way I calculate it. Real AVG DMG taken from in-game numbers, multiply by 100 + crit %, divide by 100. EX: If you attack a mob with a 10% crit it is like you make 110 attacks.

2) The fatal slash numbers I have are an Average taken from 10 different tries. This average accounts for the variance. You can try to complicate things beyond the actual numbers I get from in game, but the whole point of this thread is to get away from the abstract maths that are based on the stats found in the character window. If you do not understand this then you did not read the OP.

3) Suvivability is accurate because I am not comparing different mobs to each other, nor am I comparing the different weapons I use to each other.

4) Yes, the data I have will provide relevant to the higher levels. You will see as I level the two that the base percentages remain rather stable. So, we would see the two builds retain the basic differences against Orcs, for example. Now JTs might be different, but that is due to their low DEF stat. I plan to compare on a "Magic" enemy in the later levels.

5) As a pure END capped fighter, I know that the difference is more that one single +9 armor. As best as I can tell, the difference is like +250 DEF for the END fighter from the effects of the Free Stat.

Really, you can post on my thread with your high-school honors attempt at math, but I get the feeling that you are antagonizing me on this thread only because of our disagreements on other threads. I can only come to that conclusion because your points are so obviously wrong.

If you try to flame me on this thread again I'll have it closed.

Morok

04-22-2009, 07:00 PM

Rooks, cool guide. You got any hybrids to test as well?

Stingerdan

04-22-2009, 08:25 PM

1) No, your calculations for DMG on +STR free stats is wrong. If you would read my post you would see that there are hidden effects to Free Stats. All the data I collect supports this. Using a simple +1.25 value for a single STR free stat is insufficient. The correct way is the way I calculate it. Real AVG DMG taken from in-game numbers, multiply by 100 + crit %, divide by 100. EX: If you attack a mob with a 10% crit it is like you make 110 attacks.

2) The fatal slash numbers I have are an Average taken from 10 different tries. This average accounts for the variance. You can try to complicate things beyond the actual numbers I get from in game, but the whole point of this thread is to get away from the abstract maths that are based on the stats found in the character window. If you do not understand this then you did not read the OP.

3) Suvivability is accurate because I am not comparing different mobs to each other, nor am I comparing the different weapons I use to each other.

4) Yes, the data I have will provide relevant to the higher levels. You will see as I level the two that the base percentages remain rather stable. So, we would see the two builds retain the basic differences against Orcs, for example. Now JTs might be different, but that is due to their low DEF stat. I plan to compare on a "Magic" enemy in the later levels.

5) As a pure END capped fighter, I know that the difference is more that one single +9 armor. As best as I can tell, the difference is like +250 DEF for the END fighter from the effects of the Free Stat.

Really, you can post on my thread with your high-school honors attempt at math, but I get the feeling that you are antagonizing me on this thread only because of our disagreements on other threads. I can only come to that conclusion because your points are so obviously wrong.

If you try to flame me on this thread again I'll have it closed.

Pwnt yaya?

daword123

04-25-2009, 08:49 AM

Twenty-Nine_Rooks is right... there is Hiden efects
i test them too..first im was pure str fighter +85 in STR then i change it--> 45str and 40end and i realy get about 25-30% less dmg for mops. ^^