Fighters just lost another few points in my book. [Archive]

AdamWest

10-23-2007, 04:10 AM

I pretty much despise clerics.. and it seems more and more my feelings are being validated.

Of course you have the normal things like having the party of free allocation and taking everything, whining about dying when they run around like a chicken with their heads cut off..

those are the standard things.. check the fighter's forums.. you'll see post after post of fighters fuming mad about it..

but i'm really starting to think people pick certain character types because of their own personalities..

clerics from what i can see, tend to be self-centered, and really apathetic to the outside world.

Tonight, just lumped a few more onto the pile.

I'm partying with a friend, we're doing a quest in the dungeon of Moonlight Tomb.. some clerics come in that know my partner and want to party.. so we do.. they don't want to help the quest.. they want to go after Zombie King.. "I only like drops" one of them said... so we do.. we go after ZK.

The whole way there it's hurry up this, and hurry up that.. and my friend's computer was lagging so she had to relog.. of course it was "hurry up!!!" they said..

20 stones and about an hour later (from me healing and keeping them alive) we get to the spot where ZK's supposed to respawn....

we're waiting 5 minutes and it's time for the Robo KQ..

and they start talking about wanting to leave to go to the KQ.

I say "you guys are <BLANKS> for wanting to leave.. it was your idea to come here in the first place.. i wasted stones and time and i have to scroll to Eldrine and run all the way back here".

they both laugh.. they think it's funny.

clerics -2

UCWUTIDIDTHAR?

in other words: you're an idiot. generalizations FTL.

Kholai

10-23-2007, 04:39 AM

Clerics with full END can also tank but he doesn't have aggro control while tank have aggro control with mock and taunt.

Counterpoint: The guide in my signature. Aggro control through abuse of the heal mechanic. Not equal to a fighter, but still possible. Don't even need to be full endurance.

Thread topic:
I've recently had the good fortune to meet a good fighter.
It was pretty much my first. I've met exactly one fighter before who I thought to be good, but that was in Kingdom Quest, and most people behave differently in Kingdom Quests.

This fighter:
Of course, had full endurance.
He, of course, used a sword and shield (I've no problem with fighters using a two-handed sword or an axe when they're soloing, but in a party, you use sword and shield).
He stayed close to the party (amazing right?).
He didn't complain about having to use the occasional potion (lag, me being mobbed, my mage-buddy being mobbed....).
He paid attention to monsters spawning in places other than directly in front of him, and took aggro off the squishies.
He let the mage lure instead of rushing off and using kick....
He asked for free allocation for quest drops, and was perfectly happy when we explained we'd put it on free when such a drop occurred if he'd wait a second to pick it up.

It was amazing. Grinding in CP, everyone used less SP, I died once (mass monster spawn and one failure to grab aggro), the Famous Maiya died once (monster spawned right behind her, nobody even saw it), and there was no whining, no raging.... If all fighters could be like that, I'd insist on one in every party, but it seems most fighters just don't care about anyone else in the group, when in fact, a good fighter should be almost as aware of their comrades' status and location as a cleric is.

Oh well, at least they're optional most of the time.

AdamWest - Yeah, I see what you did there. You switched a generalisation about fighters to an incredibly stupid one about clerics, including the "wasting stones healing and keeping them alive", self-centred, free allocation..... If you're going to argue, at least do it right.

Cortaal

10-23-2007, 06:38 AM

Eh, not all people are like that, I play a fighter and I'm more then happy to help people out. It's more on the person you're grouping with more then anything else. But if group with anyone like that, I leave before we get anywhere near a boss or anything.

Andromeda

10-23-2007, 06:39 AM

As people keep saying dont get mad at the class but get mad at the person controlling the character ;)

Sephiroth2

10-23-2007, 06:41 AM

i know you Classist dont hate on all of us just because some of us are rude.:D

Enzio

10-23-2007, 08:01 AM

I think i'm a pretty nice fighter but one thing I do hate is going after a boss and my party want to kill every damn thing on the way there. That really pisses me off but i've learned to just deal with it lol.

It's not smart to **** clerics off.

Also I freaking HATE when clerics get attack by a monster and instead of running towards the tank they run away and lure even more monsters then die and complain. When all they had to do was run towards me so i could pull argo.

Cortaal

10-23-2007, 08:29 AM

Also I freaking HATE when clerics get attack by a monster and instead of running towards the tank they run away and lure even more monsters then die and complain. When all they had to do was run towards me so i could pull argo.

Oh yeah, seen this, been there, and lastly, when the person who pulls aggro makes the mistake, stop complaining.

aegrimonia

10-23-2007, 01:22 PM

(lots of stuff cut out here)

UCWUTIDIDTHAR?

in other words: you're an idiot. generalizations FTL.

What a brilliant counterpoint!

Why couldn't you have saved us all time and just have said: "I Know you are but what am I?".

I think it would have made the SAME Point, in a more succinct fashion.

tsoper85

10-23-2007, 01:35 PM

Sounds like you just aren't high enough level yet. The fighters who are higher level (At least all in my guild and guilds I play with often) are all very nice people. The fighters that tend to be jerks like that usually aren't high level yet because the lack of people want to party with them (unless they are with a real life friend who's a cleric). Once they get higher and go CP and other areas in Uruga which require people to work together they'll get left behind and you'll hopefully find nicer people to party with.

AdamWest

10-23-2007, 01:56 PM

What a brilliant counterpoint!

Why couldn't you have saved us all time and just have said: "I Know you are but what am I?".

I think it would have made the SAME Point, in a more succinct fashion.

what a beautiful skirt of the point. apparently you're not intelligent enough to handle subtlety, so let me throw it right out there.

you made a generalization, so you can automatically assume its false and thus your entire opening arguement has absolutely ZERO substance.

there are ****head fighters, just like there are ****head archers and mages and obviously ****head clerics.

and to kholai: i'm sorry, what rules state that in a party a fighter is to use a sword and shield? hey, all you spr builds, why dont you completely counteract your added crit percentage by equipping a weapon that has lower crit percentage and less damage (meaning lower numbers when you do crit)? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Has it occurred to you that some fighters just plain aren't built for 1h+shield? sure, a pure end should do that in a party, but honestly they should do it all the time.

no end means no added block rate, the couple extra points of defense they get from the shield wont make a difference in the long rung considering everyone is doing their job.

aegrimonia

10-23-2007, 02:12 PM

what a beautiful skirt of the point. apparently you're not intelligent enough to handle subtlety, so let me throw it right out there.

you made a generalization, so you can automatically assume its false and thus your entire opening arguement has absolutely ZERO substance.

there are ****head fighters, just like there are ****head archers and mages and obviously ****head clerics.

and to kholai: i'm sorry, what rules state that in a party a fighter is to use a sword and shield? hey, all you spr builds, why dont you completely counteract your added crit percentage by equipping a weapon that has lower crit percentage and less damage (meaning lower numbers when you do crit)? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Has it occurred to you that some fighters just plain aren't built for 1h+shield? sure, a pure end should do that in a party, but honestly they should do it all the time.

no end means no added block rate, the couple extra points of defense they get from the shield wont make a difference in the long rung considering everyone is doing their job.

Could everyone on earth who thought Adam's ORIGINAL reply to my message meant that "because i used a generalization, my post has absolutely no substance", PLEASE raise their hand?

Because it sure as hell looked like a 'i know you are but what am I' reply.

I'm not exactly sure how changing a few words from someone's post, and calling someone and idot could mean that..

Archaonn

10-23-2007, 02:20 PM

Meh, some fighters are idiots others are not. I'm pretty new to tanking so I've seen some idiot Clerics shouting at me.

aegrimonia

10-23-2007, 02:23 PM

Meh, some fighters are idiots others are not. I'm pretty new to tanking so I've seen some idiot Clerics shouting at me.

There are definately idiots on both sides :)

well.. all 4 sides.. when you drag the other classes in.

Tylur

10-23-2007, 02:26 PM

Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if the person is a fighter, cleric, mage, whatever.

It just depends on the person and how they act. A person that is nice wouldn't brag about them being able to tank, they wouldn't KS, they'd shut up and play the game, or chat friendly among others. It's not the fighters, it's some of the people playing on the fighters.

Not everybody is a <insertnaughtywordhere>.

And in my book, this is how it goes. Fighters are nothing without clerics. Cleric's aren't much without fighters. I know Cleric's can tank and solo, but how fast do they solo compared to being in a party? Not very good training compared to partying up with a nice tanker.

Games work better with nice communities and players that aren't completely clueless on what to do. It makes it easy AND much more fun than playing alone. The people that do what you posted, though. Laugh at them. If they act that way in a party in their higher level 30's, they're not going to be getting any parties. Therefore, no training.

They lose in the end, you know? Attitude is key. And as for mages and archers, thanks for being lurers/damage dealers. 8] You're a lot of help no matter what.

Balder

10-23-2007, 03:43 PM

LOL, man how many times am I gonna have to repeat myself? Thank god Tylur posted before I did so all I'll have to do is a repeat summarized post:

There are dumb*** and super cool people of all classes. I'm a fighter myself, in my mid-twenties(lvl of course :-P) so i've seen all types.

Funny thing though, on the subject of KQs, the Mara one is the only one i never know how to handle simply because either everyone decides to rush to Mara or kill everything in sight.

Enough said.

farard

10-23-2007, 04:34 PM

99.95 of fighters realy do not know how to play the game, they only know how to play other classes. by getting free heals, res, drops and exp from little effort on their part.

academics03

10-23-2007, 06:15 PM

I've noticed lately (on my archer also, though it happens more often on my cleric) that fighters do most to all of the ks-ing to me. I don't know if that's because they feel I'm taking too long which apparently equals I'm dying, I'm a cleric so naturally I CAN'T support myself, or they're just showing off their power to convince me to party with them and be their personal first aid kit (I've also noticed not too many fighters and mages I've seen carry potions to heal themselves).
I know not all fighters are like that (like others have already stated, there are jerks in every class), but I keep running into it...its very annoying.

AdamWest

10-23-2007, 06:24 PM

99.95 of fighters realy do not know how to play the game, they only know how to play other classes. by getting free heals, res, drops and exp from little effort on their part.

random statistics are random. If being a fighter is so easy, how come everyone is a cleric? Fighter is easily the most expensive class to solo. I just laugh to myself and leave a party when i'm duoing with a mage or archer and they seem to think that sequential allocation is fair. sure if a cleric is there, we spend fewer stones and pots, but most of the time clerics are totally incompetant (zomg, look at me ma, i can make sweeping blanket statements too!) so still burn through stones and pots. You squishies sit back there not doing anything and seem to think you deserve as much of the loot as a fighter? okay, you go tank a few hits, let me know when you're so broke you have to decide whether you need SP or HP stones, since you cant afford both.

I've noticed lately (on my archer also, though it happens more often on my cleric) that fighters do most to all of the ks-ing to me. I don't know if that's because they feel I'm taking too long which apparently equals I'm dying, I'm a cleric so naturally I CAN'T support myself, or they're just showing off their power to convince me to party with them and be their personal first aid kit (I've also noticed not too many fighters and mages I've seen carry potions to heal themselves).
I know not all fighters are like that (like others have already stated, there are jerks in every class), but I keep running into it...its very annoying.

there is a good chance they are bots or foreigners. apparently in kfiesta KSing is common practice.

AldionAeden

10-23-2007, 06:28 PM

I pretty much despise fighters.. and it seems more and more my feelings are being validated.

Of course you have the normal things like having the party of free allocation and taking everything, whining about dying when they run around like a chicken with their heads cut off..

those are the standard things.. check the cleric's forums.. you'll see post after post of clerics fuming mad about it..

but i'm really starting to think people pick certain character types because of their own personalities..

fighters from what i can see, tend to be self-centered, and really apathetic to the outside world.

Tonight, just lumped a few more onto the pile.

I'm partying with a friend, we're doing a quest in the dungeon of Moonlight Tomb.. some fighters come in that know my partner and want to party.. so we do.. they don't want to help the quest.. they want to go after Zombie King.. "I only like drops" one of them said... so we do.. we go after ZK.

The whole way there it's hurry up this, and hurry up that.. and my friend's computer was lagging so she had to relog.. of course it was "hurry up!!!" they said..

20 stones and about an hour later (from me healing and keeping them alive) we get to the spot where ZK's supposed to respawn....

we're waiting 5 minutes and it's time for the Robo KQ..

and they start talking about wanting to leave to go to the KQ.

I say "you guys are <BLANKS> for wanting to leave.. it was your idea to come here in the first place.. i wasted stones and time and i have to scroll to Eldrine and run all the way back here".

they both laugh.. they think it's funny.

Fighers -2

http://i21.tinypic.com/mbq2oj.jpg

i so disagree i play a fighter and i am actually pretty nice the party comes first with me:o

Archaonn

10-23-2007, 06:30 PM

random statistics are random. If being a fighter is so easy, how come everyone is a cleric? Fighter is easily the most expensive class to solo. I just laugh to myself and leave a party when i'm duoing with a mage or archer and they seem to think that sequential allocation is fair. sure if a cleric is there, we spend fewer stones and pots, but most of the time clerics are totally incompetant (zomg, look at me ma, i can make sweeping blanket statements too!) so still burn through stones and pots. You squishies sit back there not doing anything and seem to think you deserve as much of the loot as a fighter? okay, you go tank a few hits, let me know when you're so broke you have to decide whether you need SP or HP stones, since you cant afford both

That is some dumb argument, Mages and archers deserve as much loot as Fighters because with out them the enemy wouldn't die as fast, the cleric would need to heal the fighter a lot more because the enemy isn't dieing faster and in the end the cleric is wasting all his sp trying to keep the tank alive.

seaden

10-23-2007, 07:59 PM

when it comes to stupid fighter i just leave the party im lv 30 cleric now and can defently kill monster solo out of most fighters legue most lv 25-30 fighters for some reson still train in moonlight tomb but they bog my xp down to like 35 in stead of 85 for ex ice vivis solo

so what i do is i form the party say its seq allo and just heal them as punishment telling them i know there here just for my buffs

fighters need clerics alot inorder to kill higher lvs then them on avg

clerics in order to stave off the dulldrums of slowly hacking away need a good fighter but i will say that a good mage and a cleric tank can do wonders if the mage dont crit lol

still cleric fighter and a mage/archer is better

meikahidenori

10-23-2007, 08:26 PM

depends as it goes both ways. i am a fighter and need a help with quests and none seem to want to help except for clereics and wizards that are too many levels higher and then, it's only so they can use me as a meat sheild. I don't play this game to be used as some persons bait just so they can watch me die for the sake of it. it's not very fair, especally when all i need is a map refernce to a certain monster.

vvyrd

10-23-2007, 08:33 PM

Currently I play a level 14 fighter on Apoline. I've partied with all sorts, Fighters, Mages, Clerics, Archers. And I've noticed that it doesnt matter what the classes are, it matters about the player. I've met the nicest, and worst characters in Apoline, especialy where Exp and drops are concerned. Personally, I don't try fooling myself and claiming to be a meat tank. I die quite a bit, especially when I try jumping monsters that can drop me like a hat.

Clerics have one of the worst reps in the game, they are suspected to be the healers, and that they cant defend themselves, and thats a bunch of crap. They can do some damage, and they can heal themselves.

Mages are sometimes considered push overs, and I've even seen some fighters balk at the idea of a mage joining their party, calling them weak. But I've never seen a fighter drop a major monster with 1000 damage in one hit before. True, their HP sometimes isnt that great, but thats why they play smart.

And Archers get alot of grief, but if you want to pick out a single enemy out of a cluster, especially when they start to attack in groups, like those Philoflies, (I'm a low level, so bite me, their my worst enemy so far, if I'm gonna get the Monster joke punch line award, its going to be to them.) But they can select one and lead it into a trap.

The goal of all these different classes isnt to fight against one another, OR run around like headless birds. Its to work together, a Cleric to deal out some pounding AND help keep everyone together, a mage to deliver some major hurt to make sure things dont soon get too swamped, Archers to keep the small pests off the rest of the team (especially since they can stand back from the main melee and watch the flanks) not to mention luring others into the afforementioned trap without having a dozen monsters attacking a single person at once. And the fighter is to help defeat the monster, and help with protecting the other characters. Meat tanks can help, they arent needed all the time, but it always helps to have one. Alot of KQ's cant be done without a meat tank. Just because they CAN take some monsters by themselves, doesnt mean they should.

And personally, if a Cleric is spending all their SP stones and pots for healing of a meat tank, mage, archer, or themselves, just to keep everyone alive, then they should get some repariations. I'm not advocating them getting a bigger chunk of the pie, team work means equal treatment, but whenever I party with an SP user thats going to keep me alive a little bit longer, I always toss a few SP pots their way.

----

Kigamy on Apoline, currently lv 14 Fighter

aegrimonia

10-23-2007, 09:25 PM

so the cost to grind for a fighter and an archer is different but the payout is equal?

go back to china you commy scum.

Actually.. I think you're the idiot..

It's not OUR fault your class sucks (since it's apparently so expensive to be one)

Loot in parties should be sequential and equal. PERIOD. You're going to find it more and more difficult to find people who are dumb enough to put it on free if they aren't a fighter. The clerics of the server are just about to go on strike :)

And people in the rear.. here's a tip.. about 1/2 way though the fight of a boss, drop something on the ground you don't care about and pick it back up.. it will throw off the people who are 'counting' the sequential order to always get the good stuff. I do it every time now.

ShraksCorpse

10-23-2007, 10:19 PM

but i'm really starting to think people pick certain character types because of their own personalities..

Ive been wondering about this... also the type of game they play...

though I think you are off a bit...... about 50% of people that play MMO's have issues in real life and have no other way to vent than to royally P others off (read sig; it applies to your situation as well)

ShraksCorpse

10-23-2007, 10:26 PM

so the cost to grind for a fighter and an archer is different but the payout is equal?

go back to china you commy scum.

Woah! you're getting VERY close to violating board rules

tsoper85

10-23-2007, 10:34 PM

Level 5x Mage needs 10-15 silver average to restone each run that lasts 20-30 minutes if they using all skills. In the end mages/archers with high sp usage and high cost of stones are more expensive than fighters. Fighters do however later in parties use lots of stones too to tank......but once you get high you find that archers/mages are one of the most expensive class. Ask any level 55+

AdamWest

10-23-2007, 10:45 PM

Actually.. I think you're the idiot..

It's not OUR fault your class sucks (since it's apparently so expensive to be one)

Loot in parties should be sequential and equal. PERIOD. You're going to find it more and more difficult to find people who are dumb enough to put it on free if they aren't a fighter. The clerics of the server are just about to go on strike :)

And people in the rear.. here's a tip.. about 1/2 way though the fight of a boss, drop something on the ground you don't care about and pick it back up.. it will throw off the people who are 'counting' the sequential order to always get the good stuff. I do it every time now.

right. fighters suck. feel free to go tank the next KQ you're in. let me know when you get 1 shotted or lose agro anytime a mage casts mm1. It's not our fault that fighters are a more expensive class to play.

Nice of you to get on a fighters case for wanted to get as much out of the loot as he puts into the grind, but at the same time you purposefully exploit the count on sequential allo. hi i'm aegrimonia and i wear my hypocrisy like a big pink fuzzy hat.

when a party is on sequential allo, i lose more money than i make between levels 20 and 30 (after that i start picking up tier 3 drops) so you can either set it to sequential allo OR you can complain about fighters not using stones and pots. Can't have both.

Gravvi

10-23-2007, 11:14 PM

I have tried every character and yes tanks get the best part of drops. They get them all first since they are right there. Clerics are suppose to heal and it is our stones and potions we using to keep you(fighters alive). Mages and archers um hello do more damage than you do. I was in a mara pirate KQ with a bunch of idiots(most were there were 2 who weren't)

Ok there was one fighter who i liked in there. It took me shouting and not doing anything and constantly asking to invite me to a party to get invited. I didn't get invited till after mara and marlone were dead halfway through the place. Then We get to the boat and a cleric is alive and i have 1min left he goes and revives the person who just died when he could have rev me and then reved the other person and have 2 people to help kill instead of one. We had one fighter trying to rush when noone else was. I mean it doesn't take common sense to tell you other people have the first part of the quest and if there are 3 teams of 5 that is 15 people. When someone is asking for a party that means one of the 3 teams are not full. The fact that noone invited me till the middle of the KQ was kinda idiotic. KQ are about teamwork. Everyone needs to know that.

Aurun

10-24-2007, 03:30 AM

I don't like stereotyping either but it is the sad truth that people who are inattentive and don't get the concept of team play and parties are often the fighters. Yelling at Clerics to raise not paying attention to cooldowns, having 3 fighters in your party all tanking a different mob and all expecting to remain fully healed, starting a rush on Mara without saying anything first, expecting everyone to follow them 'because they are the tank.'

They even got mad at mages that died because they didn't join in the blind rush fast enough. That probably annoys me most of all, that air of entitlement.

That said I know plenty of awesome guys who are fighters too.. But it's not hard to get the wrong impression about em ^^

Kholai

10-24-2007, 03:52 AM

To Kholai: i'm sorry, what rules state that in a party a fighter is to use a sword and shield? hey, all you spr builds, why dont you completely counteract your added crit percentage by equipping a weapon that has lower crit percentage and less damage (meaning lower numbers when you do crit)? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Has it occurred to you that some fighters just plain aren't built for 1h+shield? sure, a pure end should do that in a party, but honestly they should do it all the time.

no end means no added block rate, the couple extra points of defense they get from the shield wont make a difference in the long rung considering everyone is doing their job.

The rule that states that non-endurance fighters are as useful as a wet noodle in "the long rung", that states that the best use for a fighter is as a tank, rather than a damage dealer.
The rule that states that, without a shield, a character cannot block ever.
The rule that states that if I'm in a party, my defence had better be lower than the fighter who's supposed to be tanking.

It's the rule of the ideal party: 1 Fighter, 1 Mage, 1 Archer, 2 Clerics. Archers and Mages are needed as damage dealers. Two clerics heal, serve as secondary tanks, add to the fighter's melee damage, and worst-case, serve to revive the other cleric.... And the Fighter takes the damage. All of it, if possible, so the clerics can focus on one target to heal.

If you don't have a shield, that's a difference of an easy 50 points of defence, completely ignoring block. That can make the difference between a 1-hit kill and a survivable encounter.

Sure, it's occurred to me that some fighters aren't built for shields. They're worthless to me, and can come back when they've re-specced to tank. Fighters' damage skills eat through their pathetic SP total every battle, they deal less damage than either mages or archers, and if they even bother trying to tank (though a large majority of them doesn't seem to know what their taunts are for), they do it so badly as to require constant, unremittant attention from the clerics, who are usually getting hit themselves.

As to the "fighters are expensive" argument, I call that bluff. Fighters in a party are getting healed by clerics. If they're endurance fighters with enough brain to use a shield, there's no problem keeping them alive against anything other than a massive mob or a boss. There's maybe the occassional panic moment where a health stone is needed very rarely, (And let's say it's 100 copper per stone). As for SP, assuming the fighter is frittering their SP away with all their flashy moves to kill the enemy faster, so they'll run out about once every other combat. More if they're super flashy.

Compare this to a cleric using their highest level heal and bashing (by the by, bash is obscenely expensive in terms of SP), using invincible, blah-blah-blah.
Compare this to a mage using pure SP-consuming skills constantly....
Compare this to an archer, whose skills are in my experience all obscenely expensive for what they do.

And this is assuming the fighter does their job and keeps aggro off all these other people, otherwise they're the ones using stones.

So the fighter is maybe using one SP potion per combat if they're being flashy about it, and maybe a series of stones if there's a massive train that the cleric can't handle. If they insist on not resting, training massive mobs, and using all their damage skills.

Here's some suggestions:

Use SP potions instead of stones. SP pots are cheap as dirt.
Don't aggro massive armies of monsters assuming the cleric will help you out.
Rest when you're low on SP.
Don't spam your damage skills whilst partied with a damage dealer.
Don't be a pure strength/spirit fighter.

Just curious but have you ever played any class but fighter? Because I spend most of my time checking the HP of people while I play, and I know that whilst grinding a mage uses a whole lot of stones for SP, quite frequently has to spam pots and HP stones, and generally has to spend silvers a day on keeping those stocked up.
I know an archer's SP goes down rapidly as they use their skills, and they have no means of recovering it apart from with potions or stones. And since they're usually the lure, they have to risk getting hit and dying.
I know a cleric's SP goes down rapidly as they heal everyone, bash the same target as the tank, maintain their buffs and monitor their SP. Thanks to my extra time playing the cleric over any other, I also know that if they're taking damage and trying to heal the tank, they have to use stones, help the mage use life tap, and frequently have to take aggro off the squishies through heal-spam and bashing.

In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone who knows their class well will be able to tell you the exact downfalls they face when they're playing. Fighters aren't exactly doing "all the work" when the enemy dies four times faster with just one damage dealer in the party. They're not doing "all the work" when the archer lures over the enemy and then starts pumping arrows. They're not doing "all the work" when the cleric sits in melee right next to them, healing them and themselves, whilst still Bashing the enemy.

Incidentally, I wade into close combat against every enemy, and drop pick up is always sequential, and I always spam the auto-pickup button as soon as the enemy dies, messing up any attempt to cheat sequential. >=D

Sure, there are good fighters out there. I hope most of the fighters popping up in this thread are good fighters who understand that every class is taking a part, that sequential is fair, and that they aren't the most important class in the game, they're one of four. It's time you realise that too and drop this argument.

Enzio: Yes, people running from monsters and training even more need help, and a cleric in particular should at worst just sit and fight the enemy until people are free to help.

AngellicDiety

10-24-2007, 04:56 AM

The rule that states that non-endurance fighters are as useful as a wet noodle in "the long rung", that states that the best use for a fighter is as a tank, rather than a damage dealer.
The rule that states that, without a shield, a character cannot block ever.
The rule that states that if I'm in a party, my defence had better be lower than the fighter who's supposed to be tanking.

It's the rule of the ideal party: 1 Fighter, 1 Mage, 1 Archer, 2 Clerics. Archers and Mages are needed as damage dealers. Two clerics heal, serve as secondary tanks, add to the fighter's melee damage, and worst-case, serve to revive the other cleric.... And the Fighter takes the damage. All of it, if possible, so the clerics can focus on one target to heal.

If you don't have a shield, that's a difference of an easy 50 points of defence, completely ignoring block. That can make the difference between a 1-hit kill and a survivable encounter.

Sure, it's occurred to me that some fighters aren't built for shields. They're worthless to me, and can come back when they've re-specced to tank. Fighters' damage skills eat through their pathetic SP total every battle, they deal less damage than either mages or archers, and if they even bother trying to tank (though a large majority of them doesn't seem to know what their taunts are for), they do it so badly as to require constant, unremittant attention from the clerics, who are usually getting hit themselves.

As to the "fighters are expensive" argument, I call that bluff. Fighters in a party are getting healed by clerics. If they're endurance fighters with enough brain to use a shield, there's no problem keeping them alive against anything other than a massive mob or a boss. There's maybe the occassional panic moment where a health stone is needed very rarely, (And let's say it's 100 copper per stone). As for SP, assuming the fighter is frittering their SP away with all their flashy moves to kill the enemy faster, so they'll run out about once every other combat. More if they're super flashy.

Compare this to a cleric using their highest level heal and bashing (by the by, bash is obscenely expensive in terms of SP), using invincible, blah-blah-blah.
Compare this to a mage using pure SP-consuming skills constantly....
Compare this to an archer, whose skills are in my experience all obscenely expensive for what they do.

And this is assuming the fighter does their job and keeps aggro off all these other people, otherwise they're the ones using stones.

So the fighter is maybe using one SP potion per combat if they're being flashy about it, and maybe a series of stones if there's a massive train that the cleric can't handle. If they insist on not resting, training massive mobs, and using all their damage skills.

Here's some suggestions:

Use SP potions instead of stones. SP pots are cheap as dirt.
Don't aggro massive armies of monsters assuming the cleric will help you out.
Rest when you're low on SP.
Don't spam your damage skills whilst partied with a damage dealer.
Don't be a pure strength/spirit fighter.

Just curious but have you ever played any class but fighter? Because I spend most of my time checking the HP of people while I play, and I know that whilst grinding a mage uses a whole lot of stones for SP, quite frequently has to spam pots and HP stones, and generally has to spend silvers a day on keeping those stocked up.
I know an archer's SP goes down rapidly as they use their skills, and they have no means of recovering it apart from with potions or stones. And since they're usually the lure, they have to risk getting hit and dying.
I know a cleric's SP goes down rapidly as they heal everyone, bash the same target as the tank, maintain their buffs and monitor their SP. Thanks to my extra time playing the cleric over any other, I also know that if they're taking damage and trying to heal the tank, they have to use stones, help the mage use life tap, and frequently have to take aggro off the squishies through heal-spam and bashing.

In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone who knows their class well will be able to tell you the exact downfalls they face when they're playing. Fighters aren't exactly doing "all the work" when the enemy dies four times faster with just one damage dealer in the party. They're not doing "all the work" when the archer lures over the enemy and then starts pumping arrows. They're not doing "all the work" when the cleric sits in melee right next to them, healing them and themselves, whilst still Bashing the enemy.

Incidentally, I wade into close combat against every enemy, and drop pick up is always sequential, and I always spam the auto-pickup button as soon as the enemy dies, messing up any attempt to cheat sequential. >=D

Sure, there are good fighters out there. I hope most of the fighters popping up in this thread are good fighters who understand that every class is taking a part, that sequential is fair, and that they aren't the most important class in the game, they're one of four. It's time you realise that too and drop this argument.

Enzio: Yes, people running from monsters and training even more need help, and a cleric in particular should at worst just sit and fight the enemy until people are free to help.

Large flawe to your argument. Fighters become the most important class when it comes to facing KQ boss monsters. Granted I do believe it is fair everyone recieves something, you cant say that all fighters need to have a shield and a sword. Its a common known fact that if your a pure END fighter with a shield and a sword and no party that will take you, then your in a very awkward boat.

Your 1 handed sword doesn't deal the damage neccessary without licenses, your HP will just get drained, and you spend a lot of hp-stones and potions. Hence the 2-handed sword and axe for soloing purposes.

Furthermore, when your facing KQ bosses with no fighters particularily in KQ's like the Mini Dragon you WILL fail if you have a cleric tanking. The fightes keep the aggro on them so the damage dealers wont die in a single attack from the mini-dragon. The truth is, while your points are valid, they are valid to an extent.

At times such as the Robo KQ, Honeying, Mini Dragon, and possibly the KQ's thereafter, the fighter becomes THE MOST important class in the game to:

A) Keep Alive
B) Keep the group Alive
C) Make it possible to succeed.

I have an archer a mage and a cleric, and I know how tough it can be when your tanker dies. Once the tanker dies my mages and archers are the first to be pounded adding to the body count of people needing to be revived...

Kholai

10-24-2007, 05:44 AM

Large flaw to your argument. Fighters become the most important class when it comes to facing KQ boss monsters. Granted I do believe it is fair everyone recieves something, you cant say that all fighters need to have a shield and a sword. Its a common known fact that if your a pure END fighter with a shield and a sword and no party that will take you, then your in a very awkward boat.

I like tanks, they make my life easy, and that makes me less cranky. But fighters are most assuredly not the most useful class when it comes to facing any monster, kingdom quest or otherwise.
Don't believe me? Let that fighter tank without a cleric or two healing them. Let a cleric and tank fight without the damage from a mage and an archer.
Most important for one role. Tanking. Just like everyone else is most important for their roles. Think a kingdom quest is hard without a tank? Try it without a cleric. Try it with only fighters if you really believe they're the most important class.

All fighters who want to play a useful role as a tank need a sword and shield. I have already stated that two-handed sword or axe is perfectly fine, and probably recommended, for soloing. Whilst partying, damage comes from damage dealers from afar, thus whilst tanking, damage is irrelevant, and any damage a fighter can produce is low compared to a comparative mage or archer.

Furthermore, when your facing KQ bosses with no fighters particularily in KQ's like the Mini Dragon you WILL fail if you have a cleric tanking. The fightes keep the aggro on them so the damage dealers wont die in a single attack from the mini-dragon. The truth is, while your points are valid, they are valid to an extent.

Theoretically, any cleric that can take the hits of a boss and still outheal its damage can retain aggro through heal abuse and survive. I will assume the mini-dragon deals stun or enough damage to kill any cleric that could oppose it, and accept your point. The truth is, you're wrong. This does not make the fighter more important than anyone else. See above: Without the other classes, it doesn't matter if you're the only one who can tank the boss; who are you tanking it for?

At times such as the Robo KQ, Honeying, Mini Dragon, and possibly the KQ's thereafter, the fighter becomes THE MOST important class in the game to:

A) Keep Alive
B) Keep the group Alive
C) Make it possible to succeed.

I shall bear this in mind. In future, I shall simply suicide my cleric, and recommend all my damage dealing friends do the same. They obviously contribute nothing to the success of the kingdom quest, since fighters can heal themselves, deal all the damage they need to beat anything, and do it with style.

Or not, that's actually a pretty silly statement. If the cleric dies, the group fails even if the tank is the best tank in the world. Does that make the cleric the most important class? Well, they're pretty awesome, but they're part of a team. Clerics are pretty much the best solo-class, but without damage dealers, they're too slow. Without tanks, they burn so much more SP it's not even worth it. Without archers, who will they rez (Just kidding guys. =D)? Sure, you know what? It's very important to keep the tank alive. Why? So the tank can keep everyone else alive.
Please, let them drop the ego a little bit and realise this fundamental truth. Kingdom quests especially are about the team, not the individual, and yeah, you're vital. So's everyone else. And they're not the ones saying they should get all the loot.

Balder

10-24-2007, 10:10 AM

I realized in this game that clerics and fighters are the most symbiotic classes of all in Fiesta. Yesterday I did the Marlone quest with only a cleric and a mage and I have to tell ya, without them I'd be dead and without me, they'd be dead. Personally, I'll have to say that all classes are important and that every class need each other to survive bosses.

Enzio

10-24-2007, 11:02 AM

I think it's not fair for people to assume that i'm some weak damage dealer because i'm a fighter. I may not be the most experienced player considering i've only been playing for about 5-6 days but I believe my spr/end axe/2hs fighter is NO JOKE.

It seems like everytime I join golden hill now my lvl 27/28 fighter is always tanking the last boss simply because the "tank" can't keep argo. I don't know if its because the tank just sucks or because all the archers and mages are weak or what. All I know is, everytime I get behind that big ugly gold digger boss he ALWAYS turns around and attacks me.

Now maybe i'm wrong but by him turning to attack me doesn't that mean i'm doing the most dmg? He doesn't go after the mages or the archers. He goes after big daddy axe wielding super crit beast me. It happens so often that the clerics just start healing me and I tanked it just fine with no shield! even with just 2 clerics I did it flawlessly.

I consider myself a damn good damage dealer and a decent tank

Also, who exactly are you guys partying with that makes you have to trick the loot system? Every time we do KM the loot is easily split up from the boss.

Normaly my party looks like this for km, full end tank/ spr/end fighter (me) 2 clerics and an archer or mage.

its very simple! if bow drops the archer gets it! if 1hs sword or shield? tank gets it! 2hs or axe? I get it! hammer/mace? cleric gets it!! wand?? mage gets it!!

If we have 2 clerics then the cleric that was there first gets his pick between hammer/mace and the 2nd cleric will have to make due with a random wep like bow or staff, depending on what class we do or don't have in our party. which he can easily sell and buy whatever wep he wanted to get in the first place

We have never had a problem with drops. Hell I remember like 2 days ago we did km and it was just me and the tank (Friends) everyone else in the party was pretty random, we picked up a l33t bow and gave it to the archer no problem at all! i won't lie though, giving up that bow pained us deeply simply because it was the only drop from km we had got after all those attempts but hey, only fair the archer get the bow

Accalia

10-24-2007, 11:38 AM

*And the forum killer swoops in for the kill*

First off: certain personality types do magnetize towards certain classes. This does NOT mean that all (fighters/clerics/mages/archers) are the same and have the same personality especially when the game only has 4 classes!

Second: Loot distribution should be on sequential unless you have specific reasons for it not to be (IE: mining/quest drops/killing different things by yourself but in party)

Third: I can't emphasize this enough: ALL CLASSES HAVE AN EQUALLY IMPORTANT TASK IN A PARTY. This means everyone should get equal loot. Period. If the "pick up" button is used instead of picking it up manually, there is more randomization to the drops that are received. And, if the person doing selective pick-ups has time to do that, then obviously they are not moving fast enough and perhaps you should consider removing them from party.

Leedles

10-24-2007, 11:59 AM

Wow, your fighter-bashing has extended past your cleric corner. That's really very sweet for those of us fighters who are good at what we do.

Let me start by saying: NO CLASS IS BETTER THEN ANY OTHER CLASS

I don't understand why ALL of you have to be so hostile to each other. I don't understand why you all have to make your damn generalizations. Make your points, but do so in a way that doesn't attack and offend the rest of the population.

There are jerks in EVERY CLASS. Weed through the jerks to find the gems.

Fighters - it IS fair to have on RANDOM sequential allocation. You DO NOT do all the work in the party. You are one of many who are hopefully doing everything you can to work together to bring down the monster as quickly as possible. If the others aren't working as hard as you are, what are you doing in a party with them? The same applies to EVERY class.

I still stick by what I've said in many many threads before: if you're not happy with how your party functions, leave it and find one that functions better. Find a party that works well for you, and stick with it. Communicate in game rather then coming to the forum to bash an entire class based on what you've seen a fraction of the class doing.

Kholai - why don't you focus on playing your own class and let the fighters decide whether they want to play 1hnd, 2hnd or axe? You can then decide who you want to party with based on your feelings. Personally, I have both a 1hnd and an axe. Tanking with the 1hnd and the axe is just about the same. The extra damage generally makes up for the lowered defence. My clerics don't mind which I use - and if they want me to use the 1hnd, they tell me. Again, personal preference. Don't tell a whole class how they're supposed to play based on your own personal preferences.

Anyway, I really think people on this thread need to take a step back and stop attacking each other. It doesn't help with the whole teamwork thing when we're fighting amongst ourselves ;)

Kaleidoscope

10-24-2007, 01:54 PM

@_@ So when did the fighter become THE MOST important character in a KQ? O.o I do believe that all the clerics keeping his *** alive is pretty important to, wouldn't you agree? oO I also think that the mages and the archer sitting back and doing the real damage that actually KILL the boss would also be a good thing.

I've tanked at least once in all the KQ's I've been in as to date. King slime and Queen slime, we had no fighter, I tanked. Mara and Marlone. Our fighters were not endurance builds and I easily had the most defense out of all of them. King Marlone in the hideout clan? Tanked him too. I'll admit I didn't tank my skeleton king kill..Another cleric did. ;D

If you are depending soley on your loot drops to make the money you need to buy stones and pots, you really need to rethink the way you play this game. Especially during levels 20-30, farming in high level mats becomes very important in making a good deal of money. I personally have never had any problems with money during those levels, because of farming. I believe if you're having to rely on taking all the loot from a party, then you're doing something wrong.

The clerics need loot so that they can buy the sP stones they absolutely burn through keeping the tank and everyone else alive, while also paying for whatever bashes they use. The Archers and Mages need even MORE because they are very skill/sp reliant, along with the fact that they have to buy HP stones too to keep themselves from dieing.

So no, your fighter class isn't the only class that needs money, all the classes are equally hindered by their need for silver and loot. All the classes put the same effort into getting the loot that drops, and therefore no fighter should be taking all the loot because he "deserves more."

Either way I'm gonna put this in very simple terms:
ALL of the classes in Fiesta were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to COMPLIMENT EACH OTHER.

That means, that they all make up for each other's weaknesses, they all can be combined to make one kickass team. They all have their specific purpose and they all have their role to play. Some of their roles may seem easier, but in all honesty none of the roles are that easy at all. Everyone is just as deserving as everyone else, we are equals and that's the end of it.

There are idiots in every class, just like there are outstanding members of every class. If someone is being an idiot, boot them from, or leave the party. Since they're not doing their job right you'd probably be better off without them. c:

AdamWest

10-24-2007, 02:47 PM

The rule that states that non-endurance fighters are as useful as a wet noodle in "the long rung", that states that the best use for a fighter is as a tank, rather than a damage dealer.
The rule that states that, without a shield, a character cannot block ever.
The rule that states that if I'm in a party, my defence had better be lower than the fighter who's supposed to be tanking.

I'm sorry, you couldn't get any wronger. My pure end fighter would duo party with a cleric in Vine Tomb at level 20-23. We'd grind on hobs. my pure spr fighter does duo parties in Vinte Tomb at level 21. Get this, i grind on hobs. the miniscule hp and def bonus doesn't really show except tanking bosses, and I always decline tanking if someone is partying for a boss. ANY fighter will be more than necessary for MOST tanking, no matter his build or weapon set up. at the same time, my critted power hit (which comes frequently, having farmed an 8% crit axe, 1% crit earrings, and having 5% crit from free stats) will out spike almost every archer in my level. At the same time, with efficient skill spamming, i out DPS almost ever archer in my level. Sure, i'll never pass a pure int paper mage's spike damage or DPS levels, but I'm out damaging a class that's built as a damage dealer, I'm pretty sure that makes me a damage dealer.

It's the rule of the ideal party: 1 Fighter, 1 Mage, 1 Archer, 2 Clerics. Archers and Mages are needed as damage dealers. Two clerics heal, serve as secondary tanks, add to the fighter's melee damage, and worst-case, serve to revive the other cleric.... And the Fighter takes the damage. All of it, if possible, so the clerics can focus on one target to heal.
replace the archer with a pure spr fighter. you'll kill mobs faster and you'll have a much more reliable secondary tank. fighters have more hp and def just off base stats than cleric with the exception of a pure end cleric, and the direct agro control is much easier to work with than heal.

If you don't have a shield, that's a difference of an easy 50 points of defence, completely ignoring block. That can make the difference between a 1-hit kill and a survivable encounter.
easy 50 points of defense? yeah, at level 30. level 20 shields provide 31 points, level 8 shields are less than half that. And if you really want to, we can get into enhancing equips or +end equips that would make up for a lack of shield.

Sure, it's occurred to me that some fighters aren't built for shields. They're worthless to me, and can come back when they've re-specced to tank.
thats because you play a 1 dimensional game. No one's fault but your own you insist on monotony.

Fighters' damage skills eat through their pathetic SP total every battle,
i know, because they made it so SPR doesn't add SP anymore. Keep making crap up please.

they deal less damage than either mages or archers,
wrong

and if they even bother trying to tank (though a large majority of them doesn't seem to know what their taunts are for), they do it so badly as to require constant, unremittant attention from the clerics,

wrong again.

As to the "fighters are expensive" argument, I call that bluff. Fighters in a party are getting healed by clerics. If they're endurance fighters with enough brain to use a shield,
being a blind sheep is using your brain now? orly?

check this neat reference back to your post: A large variety of clerics don't know what their heal is for. oh snap, i can make sweeping generalizations too!

Compare this to a mage using pure SP-consuming skills constantly....
then life tap and getting healed. A well played mage can go for hours partying without using more than the occasional stone when the cleric is too busy.

And this is assuming the fighter does their job and keeps aggro off all these other people, otherwise they're the ones using stones.
is there some weird rule that says only fighters get healed? assuming the cleric is competant (if i was you, i'd make some stupid remark about none of them are) then when a mage gains agro, the cleric would start healing him. Also, assuming a fighter is competant, he'd regain agro before any real harm is done.

So the fighter is maybe using one SP potion per combat if they're being flashy about it, and maybe a series of stones if there's a massive train that the cleric can't handle. If they insist on not resting, training massive mobs, and using all their damage skills.
and we all know as soon as you log in 50 people go shout out "Hey adam, party me!" well, they do do that to me cuz i'm such an awesome dude, but i know from experience others dont get that luxury. A well run party, everyone's going to be using just SP stones, which will cut down on cost, yes. But as we all know, parties aren't always available. So lets think about it: fighters ALWAYS use HP stones. there is no two ways around it, in order to hit something, it gets to hit you back. now on top of that fighters have horrible SP stocks so they will be using those frequently too. Then there are the idiots who think in order to tank, a shield is absolutely necessary, so now every 10 levels we have to buy two weapons and a shield. Not to mention fighters have the most skills to buy. so lets look at this: most equipment to buy, most skills to buy, use the most stones when soloing.

Explain to me how a fighter isn't expensive.

Just curious but have you ever played any class but fighter?
yup.

I wont argue a full party sequential is fair, since in a well run party everyone should be using about the same amount. I'm arguing take that cleric out and fighters are now by far spending the most money in a party. so when an archer or mage wants to party then tells me to put it on sequential, i laugh and leave that party.

Kholai

10-25-2007, 08:00 AM

I'm sorry, you couldn't get any wronger. My pure end fighter would duo party with a cleric in Vine Tomb at level 20-23. We'd grind on hobs. my pure spr fighter does duo parties in Vinte Tomb at level 21.

Umm.... That's amazing. I know a mage who tanked in Vine Tomb at level 25-26, when her HP was under 500. This doesn't mean you're special, this means you have a cleric with you. Way to go.
And when it all hits the fan, and three or four monsters aggro, an endurance fighter with a shield is more likely to survive and win.

Also nice to hear you decline to be the party tank against bosses. Why are you there again?

ANY fighter will be more than necessary for MOST tanking, no matter his build or weapon set up. at the same time, my critted power hit (which comes frequently, having farmed an 8% crit axe, 1% crit earrings, and having 5% crit from free stats) will out spike almost every archer in my level. At the same time, with efficient skill spamming, i out DPS almost ever archer in my level. Sure, i'll never pass a pure int paper mage's spike damage or DPS levels, but I'm out damaging a class that's built as a damage dealer, I'm pretty sure that makes me a damage dealer.

So.... You're saying with above-average equipment, 25 spirit, and all your resources piled into it, you can outdamage the worst class in the game (Sorry archers, you do catch up a little later) at your level? That's lovely! And when those archers get their next damage over time abilities and actually start being useful again, you'll be thrilled I'm sure. Enjoy your time in the sun.

replace the archer with a pure spr fighter. you'll kill mobs faster and you'll have a much more reliable secondary tank. fighters have more hp and def just off base stats than cleric with the exception of a pure end cleric, and the direct agro control is much easier to work with than heal.

Or at your level, just replace the archer with a mage, kill mobs even faster, and not have to divide the cleric's attention away from the tank. And once you get to higher level areas and larger amounts of damage, archers are starting to get good again, so ****** 'em up.

Easy 50 points of defense? yeah, at level 30. level 20 shields provide 31 points, level 8 shields are less than half that. And if you really want to, we can get into enhancing equips or +end equips that would make up for a lack of shield.

Yes, you're quite right. I should ignore the game over level 30, because everyone knows that the level cap is 29 right now, and that if ever it was raised to 30, it's impossible to enhance shields to make defence even higher.

thats because you play a 1 dimensional game. No one's fault but your own you insist on monotony.

Yes, I insist on the monotony of a good tank that keeps monsters off me, is good at keeping aggro and reclaiming it, that has enough HP not to get one shotted by the enemies my group likes to hunt right now in Uruga, and doesn't insist on Free Allocation.

Apparently, because it's different, I should really enjoy playing with the two-handed sword user that couldn't even tank two dungeon zombies and never even used kick.

Y'know what? Variety is the spice of life. Give me a competent fighter who keeps aggro of anything that comes, that survives it, and still contributes damage. Give me that monotony, and they can wield whatever they like. If they can't provide that, then give me something else that I'd actually need in my parties, like an extra cleric, or some damage dealers that don't have to be next to something to kill it.

i know, because they made it so SPR doesn't add SP anymore. Keep making crap up please.

That was pretty stupid. You talk about how Endurance adds a pitiful amount of HP, yet apparently the same amount of SP added to the worst Spirit stat in the game makes fighter SP epic. Be consistent please.

Deal less damage than archers/mages - Right. Perhaps you're talking about low levels for archers? Perhaps you're thinking about how mages are currently broken and need a fix? Either way, they're still better.

Perhaps you and I have a different definition of tanking? If you really think that a fighter built for damage and damage alone is a good tank in anywhere that's actually dangerous, we must.

being a blind sheep is using your brain now? orly?

check this neat reference back to your post: A large variety of clerics don't know what their heal is for. oh snap, i can make sweeping generalizations too!

Yes, being a blind sheep is using your brain, if by blind sheep you mean using the tool most useful to your role in surviving massive incoming waves of damage, and going against the large numbers of people who say that using a two-handed weapon is the way to go.

That's remarkable. Clerics don't know how to heal people? Except no. There are bad clerics that don't heal anyone but themselves perhaps? That way you could generalise that all clerics are jerks? I dunno, but I think to make a generalisation, part of that generalisation must have some basis in this little thing called "fact". It's a "fact" that I've seen fighters who never use kick, fighters who always try to get aggro with damage, who only ever try and stun their enemies to get attention from the rest of the party....

then life tap and getting healed. A well played mage can go for hours partying without using more than the occasional stone when the cleric is too busy.

So you're saying that the mage puts even more weight on the cleric then? I guess mages are pretty cheap after all, and can always use lifetap in any situation for enough SP to continue chain casting.

is there some weird rule that says only fighters get healed? assuming the cleric is competant (if i was you, i'd make some stupid remark about none of them are) then when a mage gains agro, the cleric would start healing him. Also, assuming a fighter is competant, he'd regain agro before any real harm is done.

Assuming a fighter is competent is lovely, yet people are only complaining against the ones that aren't. Could it be that people actually like fighters, and just dislike the ones who are retarded?! If I was you, I'd ignore the fact that I'd said that.
Incidentally, I think it's cute that you think a cleric can suddenly ignore the tank entirely to start healing a mage who can't survive two hits. Sure, it's only if the cleric messes up that multiple enemies can be attacking more than one person in the party.

Yeah, ideally the fighter should be the only one getting, and needing, to be healed. That's why there's a tank.

and we all know as soon as you log in 50 people go shout out "Hey adam, party me!"

Yes, amazingly I do get fifty people shouting "hey adam party me".

Oh wait, Adam is your name. You're so crayzee.

So lets think about it: fighters ALWAYS use HP stones. there is no two ways around it, in order to hit something, it gets to hit you back. now on top of that fighters have horrible SP stocks so they will be using those frequently too. Then there are the idiots who think in order to tank, a shield is absolutely necessary, so now every 10 levels we have to buy two weapons and a shield. Not to mention fighters have the most skills to buy. so lets look at this: most equipment to buy, most skills to buy, use the most stones when soloing.

Explain to me how a fighter isn't expensive.

.... Just saying but weren't you saying how awesome your SP was earlier?

Anyway, yeah. I'll take your word that fighters have the most skills, because I can't be bothered to check to disprove you. You know what's crazy? Buying skills is optional! Just pick the ones you need until you can afford the rest.
You know what else? Buying weapons is actually pretty cheap. Yeah, just don't enhance your gear until you have enough money to do so.
You know one more crazy idea to save money?
Shroom. Y'know, that little house that restores all your health and SP for free? It's pretty sweet. I suggest forking out 5 silver for the upgrade if you reach level 25.

And.... Yeah, ask a soloing mage exactly how little health they use. You might be surprised to learn they burn more pots and stones than you do.

I wont argue a full party sequential is fair, since in a well run party everyone should be using about the same amount. I'm arguing take that cleric out and fighters are now by far spending the most money in a party. so when an archer or mage wants to party then tells me to put it on sequential, i laugh and leave that party.

No comment, I've never been in a cleric-less party somehow. =p

Syrlith

10-25-2007, 10:36 AM

Ive found that fighters tend to either be bellicose fools by nature, people trying out a different class, or those who like the role of the chivalrous knights. I love the chivalrous warriors; they are very reasonable, and accept the help of anyone who is willing to work as hard as them.

AdamWest

10-25-2007, 01:33 PM

Umm.... That's amazing. I know a mage who tanked in Vine Tomb at level 25-26, when her HP was under 500. This doesn't mean you're special, this means you have a cleric with you. Way to go.
And when it all hits the fan, and three or four monsters aggro, an endurance fighter with a shield is more likely to survive and win.
If the difference of a couple of def points is the difference between life and death, you really shouldn't be partying there. something else could just as easily go wrong (you get feared, you end up pulling 1 too many mobs, you get stunned, etc.)

Also nice to hear you decline to be the party tank against bosses. Why are you there again?
this may amaze you, but not every monster on isya is a boss. crazy huh? and i don't decline all boss monsters, i usually know what i can tank and what i cant.

So.... You're saying with above-average equipment, 25 spirit, and all your resources piled into it
yes. and by the time they obtain the necessary skills to outdamage me, I'll have enough endurance to be the 1 dimensional meat shield that close minded players like feel a fighter is good for.

Or at your level, just replace the archer with a mage, kill mobs even faster, and not have to divide the cleric's attention away from the tank.
so lose a potential back up tank (which becomes very usefull when things get hairy) for another damage dealer. that will work out as long as you can guarantee everything is going right, i suppose.

And once you get to higher level areas and larger amounts of damage, archers are starting to get good again, so ****** 'em up.
And once i get to higher level areas, almost any fighter would be able to tank using just base stats. with some rather rare exceptions (usually no one but a pure end fighter can tank robo, and usually if you're under 35 and tanking a party in uruga, pure end is a good idea)

Yes, you're quite right. I should ignore the game over level 30, because everyone knows that the level cap is 29 right now, and that if ever it was raised to 30, it's impossible to enhance shields to make defence even higher.
or rather, by your logic, ignore the game below level 30. makes sense. Its funny you mention enhancing shields.

Apparently, because it's different, I should really enjoy playing with the two-handed sword user that couldn't even tank two dungeon zombies and never even used kick.
you keep bringing up these stupid fighters that dont kick. I hardly see how that applies here. I can void your arguement with 1 simple statement: i have kick and mock and i use them on a regular basis. you're stupid argument about fighters who dont taunt doesn't apply.

Y'know what? Variety is the spice of life. Give me a competent fighter who keeps aggro of anything that comes, that survives it, and still contributes damage.
wow, weird, most fighters that know what they're doing can provide that, regardless of build and weapon preference.

That was pretty stupid. You talk about how Endurance adds a pitiful amount of HP, yet apparently the same amount of SP added to the worst Spirit stat in the game makes fighter SP epic. Be consistent please.
adding end is like addind a drop of water into a bucket. SP is so low that any bit helps. 125 hp points on top of 600 HP points isn't nearly as noticable as 125 sp points on top of 300 SP points.

Deal less damage than archers/mages - Right. Perhaps you're talking about low levels for archers?
already covered this

Perhaps you're thinking about how mages are currently broken and need a fix? Either way, they're still better.
str and int are both suffering from the same problems. a mage is no more broken than a fighter. unless you're talking about something completely difference

Perhaps you and I have a different definition of tanking? If you really think that a fighter built for damage and damage alone is a good tank in anywhere that's actually dangerous, we must.
no fighter's built for damage and damage alone. their base stats already make them quite capable at most tanking. I already brought this up, but you have an issue with selective reading.

That's remarkable. Clerics don't know how to heal people? Except no. There are bad clerics that don't heal anyone but themselves perhaps? That way you could generalise that all clerics are jerks?
and now we come full circle to the original problem. there are people who play every class poorly. Yet you single out the fighters, that's neat.

I dunno, but I think to make a generalisation, part of that generalisation must have some basis in this little thing called "fact".
good thing it is...

It's a "fact" that I've seen fighters who never use kick, fighters who always try to get aggro with damage, who only ever try and stun their enemies to get attention from the rest of the party....
its a fact i've seen clerics who never buff, rarely or never heal the tank, never dispel a curse...

So you're saying that the mage puts even more weight on the cleric then? I guess mages are pretty cheap after all, and can always use lifetap in any situation for enough SP to continue chain casting.
did i not say "use the occasional SP stone"? read, comprehend, post, in that order. Everyone in a grind party will be spamming their respective skills and thus using a lot of SP. thing is a mage has an ability to shift his SP usage over to the cleric.

Incidentally, I think it's cute that you think a cleric can suddenly ignore the tank entirely to start healing a mage who can't survive two hits.
once again, the fighter should be able to regain agro before more than 1 or two hits are done. and if the fighter cant survive without getting spam healed, you really shouldn't be there. because if ANYTHING goes wrong, its GG for your whole party

Yes, amazingly I do get fifty people shouting "hey adam party me".

Oh wait, Adam is your name. You're so crayzee.
way to completely side step the issue. point is, a pure end 1h+shield fighter is awkward outside of a party. and in later levels, a downright pain to solo. Yet you somehow expect them to just sit around sitting on their thumb waiting for a tankless party to come along.

.... Just saying but weren't you saying how awesome your SP was earlier?
I was talking about your definition of a fighter. I actually threw the 25 points into SPR to improve damage dealing and raise SP stocks in order to lower the cost of play a small amount.

Anyway, yeah. I'll take your word that fighters have the most skills, because I can't be bothered to check to disprove you. You know what's crazy? Buying skills is optional! Just pick the ones you need until you can afford the rest.
alright, pick the ones i need. I need:
-axe or 2h sword mastery for solo play (3s)
-bravery, for both (3s 600c)
-power hit, for solo (3s 600c)
-demoralizing hit. for both (3s 900c)
-mock for partying (4s 600c)
18s 700c (this was in my head, the copper count may be off) in skills alone between levels 20 and 24. throw in the sword and shield, since we only get one of our two necessary weapon set ups for free and we're now up to 25s 400c.

lets compare this to a mage, who in my experience is the next most expensive class to play as and from what i gathered from your argument, you'd likely agree.
20s, 600c. a discrepency of almost 5s. not much at later levels, but at level 24, especially with the rad house right around the corner, 5s is a lot.

You know what else? Buying weapons is actually pretty cheap. Yeah, just don't enhance your gear until you have enough money to do so.
you make an argument about enhancing shields then you suggest against weapon enhancements. kay.

You know one more crazy idea to save money?
Shroom. Y'know, that little house that restores all your health and SP for free? It's pretty sweet. I suggest forking out 5 silver for the upgrade if you reach level 25.
yes, it's a great way to save money. I have been doing it more and more often lately. I'll be sure to scrounge up the 5s somewhere when i get my current char to level 25, as well. I'm glad you can read the tutorial?

And.... Yeah, ask a soloing mage exactly how little health they use. You might be surprised to learn they burn more pots and stones than you do.
my experience suggests otherwise.

No comment, I've never been in a cleric-less party somehow. =p
heh. i suppose it would be tough for you to get into a cleric-less party.

all this back and forth aside, assuming we are on the same server (i doubt we are, though) i'd love to party with you some time.

unwielding

10-25-2007, 02:36 PM

I'm sorry you guys have had really bad experiences with fighters, but you really shouldn't group us all into the "self-centered", and "apathetic to the outside world" spectrum. I know I go out of my way to help people and get parties with people who need the same quests I do, to get the job done, and make great friends that way. I just think it's a bit harsh that you group us all that way, just because of a bad experience with a few.

Angel_Serene

10-25-2007, 02:39 PM

*Nods* I had a similar accident happen myself, though we were in the dungeon of Burnning hill. The worst thing about this party was that I was the only cleric with a full party...two fighters, and archer and a mage. Everyone of them, but the archer, were pretty much trying to rush through everything. It was "hurry up..lets move..get going...come cleric heal.." Well it's very difficult for a single cleric to tend to every player, especially when they decide to go after every monster individually. I told them repeatedly to stick together but even then they wouldn't listen. >.< Man I was so frustrated.

Leedles

10-25-2007, 05:35 PM

"Variety is the spice of life."

You are constantly contradicting yourself, Kholai. You encourage variety, but you expect every single fighter to be built the same way? Hrm ...

Kholai

10-25-2007, 06:46 PM

you keep bringing up these stupid fighters that dont kick. I hardly see how that applies here. I can void your arguement with 1 simple statement: i have kick and mock and i use them on a regular basis. you're stupid argument about fighters who dont taunt doesn't apply.

Something you don't seem to be understanding Adam, is that in the end of the day, I am a simple cleric. I like full endurance tankers not just because of their stats, but because they are usually the ones who actually dedicate their time and energy to tanking properly.
I'm hanging around in Uruga, and I still see fighters with all the bad habits I've mentioned, who keep losing aggro to the archers and mages because of it. In all honesty, I really wouldn't be so anti all those pure-Str/Spr fighters if I met some that tanked well.
I wouldn't care if they used a two-handed sword, an axe, or if they fought unarmed the whole time, so long as they tanked well.
As far as I'm concerned, the role of the fighter, that they can do better than anyone else, is tank. If they aren't doing that, and they can't keep aggro off the squishies, then my life becomes harder. I don't like that. If they aren't able to survive any better than I am, and they're actually worse at taking aggro than me, then there's no reason for them to be in my party.
It's fighters who only seem to care about damage, that irk me. If a fighter is good at their job, and can do it well enough to tank anything, then great! I wish I saw more of them, whatever their build.

Str and int are both suffering from the same problems. a mage is no more broken than a fighter. unless you're talking about something completely difference

A mage class is currently suffering from the fact that all their high level skills deal worse damage per second than their level 1 skills. This will hopefully be remedied.

Yet you single out the fighters, that's neat.

Well.... I spend large amounts of time railing about archers grabbing trains by mistake, lazy *** clerics who somehow grab aggro worse than the archers, and mages who panic and bring an entire dungeon down on my head. This is a thread about fighters though, sorry.

once again, the fighter should be able to regain agro before more than 1 or two hits are done. and if the fighter cant survive without getting spam healed, you really shouldn't be there. because if ANYTHING goes wrong, its GG for your whole party

Maybe I just like to live dangerously, or I like getting huge amounts of cash and experience to reward me for doing things right. :D

I was talking about your definition of a fighter. I actually threw the 25 points into SPR to improve damage dealing and raise SP stocks in order to lower the cost of play a small amount.

Out of curiosity, is the rest of your build strength, or is it endurance? And do you include the periodic 0 damage that block chance adds to a shield user whilst tanking when considering the benefits? As a shield user myself, I can't overstate how useful it is.

all this back and forth aside, assuming we are on the same server (i doubt we are, though) i'd love to party with you some time.

Certainly, I'd love to see you back up your claims of competence (I mean that sincerely). Unfortunately, I reside on Apoline.

Leedles - I suggest you reread, and perhaps read the entire paragraph this time. That was aquiescence; if a fighter can do everything I stated, they can use any weapon, any build, and spend their time dancing for all I care.

AdamWest

10-25-2007, 08:21 PM

Something you don't seem to be understanding Adam, is that in the end of the day, I am a simple cleric. I like full endurance tankers not just because of their stats, but because they are usually the ones who actually dedicate their time and energy to tanking properly.
I'm hanging around in Uruga, and I still see fighters with all the bad habits I've mentioned, who keep losing aggro to the archers and mages because of it. In all honesty, I really wouldn't be so anti all those pure-Str/Spr fighters if I met some that tanked well.
fair enough. I though you were making an argument based on stats. i cant argue that a bad fighter is a bad fighter, regardless of their build. I just hope you see that an spr build fighter with a good head on his shoulders can tank much more effectively than a dumb fighter, no matter how high his HP and def.

I wouldn't care if they used a two-handed sword, an axe, or if they fought unarmed the whole time, so long as they tanked well.
As far as I'm concerned, the role of the fighter, that they can do better than anyone else, is tank. If they aren't doing that, and they can't keep aggro off the squishies, then my life becomes harder. I don't like that. If they aren't able to survive any better than I am, and they're actually worse at taking aggro than me, then there's no reason for them to be in my party.
It's fighters who only seem to care about damage, that irk me. If a fighter is good at their job, and can do it well enough to tank anything, then great! I wish I saw more of them, whatever their build.
I agree with you as well. It just bugs me that everyone expects all fighters to go full end 1h sword+shield. Sure, that works in a party, but it's a total pain to attempt to solo like that (i know this from experience). I see no reason why I should greatly diminish my gameplay to enhance a total stranger's

A mage class is currently suffering from the fact that all their high level skills deal worse damage per second than their level 1 skills. This will hopefully be remedied.
Oh. I knew this was a problem with magic missle and firebolt, i was never aware it was with all the skills. I'll agree this needs some reworking if it's true.

Well.... I spend large amounts of time railing about archers grabbing trains by mistake, lazy *** clerics who somehow grab aggro worse than the archers, and mages who panic and bring an entire dungeon down on my head. This is a thread about fighters though, sorry.
point taken

Maybe I just like to live dangerously, or I like getting huge amounts of cash and experience to reward me for doing things right. :D

I've learned from a few bad experiences, living dangerous usually ends up with you running for the gate like your life depended on it burning stones just to stay alive long enough to warp.

Out of curiosity, is the rest of your build strength, or is it endurance? And do you include the periodic 0 damage that block chance adds to a shield user whilst tanking when considering the benefits? As a shield user myself, I can't overstate how useful it is.
End, for now at least. And if i ever get the spare money to buy a 1h and shield, I'll pick one up (though i'll skip on buying any new slice n dice skills or 1h mastery) I've been suggested by a few that as an axe user, I may benefit from throwing 5 points in dex, but that wont be till later when i need to party grind on mobs in the red to level with any consistancy.

Certainly, I'd love to see you back up your claims of competence (I mean that sincerely). Unfortunately, I reside on Apoline.
I plan on making a char on Apoline once my Bijou fighter hits 30. Though i was planning on an Archer, i may just pick another fighter. then you can give me an uruga scroll and plvl me, kk? :D

Leedles - I suggest you reread, and perhaps read the entire paragraph this time. That was aquiescence; if a fighter can do everything I stated, they can use any weapon, any build, and spend their time dancing for all I care.
note to self: next mara KQ, taunt and dance.

AriesMehjor

10-25-2007, 11:00 PM

I usually go through and read all the replies of the blogs I do read, but this one I just had to stop at page 5, it just kept saying the same things over and over again. So to just get everyone to shut up, get off the message boards and play Fiesta, I just had to say this.

IF YOU PLAY AS ONE OF THESE CLASSES YOU MAY EXPERIENCE THESE QUALITIES:

NEGATIVE QUALITIES:

Wrath=FIGHTER=Grrrr(Give it me!!! I am strongest in the universe!)
Arrogance=CLERIC=Your not doing it right let me do it.(Im better than everyone)
Narcisitic=MAGE= Aha ha, I'm sooo powerful, (no no no not in the face!)
Fear=ARCHER=I'm no pushover!(I'm not sure if I can do this... I hope they don't notice Im not wearing any pants)

GOOD QUALITIES:

Heroism=FIGHTER=Dont you F@#$in touch him! Dont you F@#$in touch my friends!
Faith=CLERIC=Nobody's gonna die on my watch! We are invincible!
Intellegence=MAGE=We must look before we leap, Our tactics will prevail over all!
Foresight=Archer=No mistakes, we will be flawless!

If you've ever experienced any of these emotions while playing, then welcome to the world of Fiesta, this is what happens when you give someone an alter ego and a free scyzophrenia pass.

And for the origional person who posted this, Stop being classist!

tsoper85

10-26-2007, 12:51 AM

Sigh.......people with too much time.....I read about maybe 1% of all this bickering and yet I still feel as though I wasted too much time.....

aegrimonia

10-26-2007, 12:54 AM

And for the origional person who posted this, Stop being classist!

heh.. don't think of me as classist.. think of me more as a

"Strong Activist to improve the treatment of clerics" :p

Ekairi

10-26-2007, 01:03 AM

heh.. don't think of me as classist.. think of me more as a

"Strong Activist to improve the treatment of clerics" :p

I believe in improving the treatment of clerics however I can say that not all fighters are bad. ( ;) To let you know my main is a fighter )
I do say that most players can be quite noobish, ignorant, and selfish.
Its just the ones you ran it must have been all fighters but I've seen them in all classes.

AdamWest

10-26-2007, 02:38 AM

Sigh.......people with too much time.....I read about maybe 1% of all this bickering and yet I still feel as though I wasted too much time.....

I can tell by this one post and your sig alone that you're not only extremely closed minded, but not very bright either.

its a thread about fighters in the discussion section. not our fault you were dumb enough to come in here expecting anything other than discussions about fighters.

but thank you for your amazing post, you contributed so much to this thread and your insight is greatly appreciated.

Desirai

10-26-2007, 03:10 AM

I agree with the first post...about the drop thing.

They never want to put the allocation on sequential..because it's always more fair that they get to pick up everything and the ranged attackers don't.

I'm a cleric, and I for on despise partying with fighters (unless my friends of course) cause they never want to share drops.

This isn't true for all fighters, it's just true for the ones I've randomly partied with.

I even had this problem with a few of my guildmates..we all partied, but they refused to put it on sequential cause they didn't get to pick up anything every single mob. Drives me crazy..x___x

Soul.of.Trance

10-26-2007, 05:12 AM

Hmm maybe you're right about the personalities thing. I chose my mage cuz I like to tag along, and keep people company. I also love being around people.

-Leona-

10-26-2007, 07:27 AM

Not all fighters are jackasses and i totally agree with u about the whole FREE/Sequencial allocation.

I am a fighter ALL the way but i always use sequencial allocation even when i party with totally weaklings (10 or more level below me to help them level). I hate fighters that refuse Seq Allocation and i always boot them or create another party and take the rest of the members on a Seq ALLOCATION party.

Although is true is annoying like hell when u see all the party gets good stuff but u, it happened to me a lot of times, my friends were getting uruga scrolls, tier 3 items and i was only getting the tier2 but that's part of the game and each person has it's luck.

AND people that do say fighters should get more items cuz they fight in front lines are jackasses cuz without a good cleric they won't fight to long or very efficiently and would take a hell of a long time to rest :(. Also i've met clerics that healed from time to time and ran around monsters grabbing items while i was fighting in free allocation and that is even more retarded than a fighter getting them mainly because he wasn't even fighting cuz often it got me killed or i had to use lots of pots and hp stones cuz the cleric was to busy picking the items.

Another think i like to do when partying my friends is have either me or another player TAKE all the items in FREE ALLOCATION and EVENLY SHARE them at the end, that way everyon e takes the same amount of items and makes an equal amount of money, MORE to that i always give a few extra items to my cleric cuz he uses much more stones than me therefore in order to make the same profit he needs extra items.

I don't like partying with mages to much and neither do i like partying with archers to much but that doesn't mean i'll take more items than them. The only reason i would rather prefer another cleric and another fighter with me instead or one archer and one mage is cuz i would get extra support with healing and another partner to share the damage with me :).

TIP FOR ALL PEOPLE: WHEN A GUY/GIRL DOESN'T WANT TO USE SEQUENCIAL ALLOCATION BOOT HIM OR LEAVE THE PARTY AND MAKE ANOTHER PARTY WITH THE MEMBER IN THAT PARTY. he/she will come begging for party and U WILL BE THE MASTER :D

Luna_Moore

11-13-2007, 08:03 AM

I know it's more about the person behind the character and that there are jerks in every class but this is my spot to rant about arrogant fighters, I'm taking it!

1.) I've been called a noob by one too many fighters. If you're going to attack seperate monsters, please stay close enough so I can heal BOTH of you.

2.) There's this thing called snear kick... USE IT.

3.) If I get attacked because someone dragged something over to me without even noticing (cause I'm spam healing my lovely tank), I will abandon you and heal me. I'm a life-addict. Sorry. :(

4.) For the last time, Cure does not cover bleeding! So don't call me a noob because I said I can't cure it. Sheesh. Come back to me when you're poisoned or ill.

5.) I keep a little blacklist in my head. If you insult me or DEMAND heals or revs and it's because of YOUR mess up, do not expect any kindess today or any time in the future. I have no problem quitting a party. I am a cleric, I am in high demand. So there. :p

6.) I am not saying fighter tanks or not in high demand, I'm saying I can easily find a new group. ^^

I get really sick of seeing idiots tarnish the fighter name. If there's anything that ticks me off more than a noob fighter, it's a noob cleric. If only I could break out that bash...

This is all I have for now. I'm sick and tired and want to join a KQ. Bye.

x341itachi

11-22-2007, 01:49 PM

ok first of all thats not true i mean *** fighters r not self centered its just ur opinion but definetly not true wow just because im a fighter im self centered? thats just plain rudeness and a little discriminating to peoples lives

x341itachi

11-22-2007, 01:52 PM

n second im not like the description u said only some fighters are like that those r the ppl who ask help n get angry in return and too lazy to work for themselves i mean im barely in partys even if i love to be around ppl but i do most things myself the fighter u described was a jerk n was too lazy so he asked for party n u got meaness in return

XpierulesX

11-23-2007, 05:24 AM

"tend to be self-centered, and really apathetic to the outside world" DUDE HOW THE #### DID YOU KNOW THAT'S ME?! [/kinda is really]

Sinome

12-10-2007, 04:43 PM

o.O

I don't quite agree with that myself. A majority of the time i usually make at least 2 to 3 charatures on the MMO I'm interested in. The usually run, cleric/priest, warrior and mage.

I like to play warriors due to a few reasons, one it nice to just hack and slash with out thinking about buffs and such. Two, I usually like the armor and weapons. (Oh, pretty and sharp) Three, how eles am I ever going to become a knight?! Lolz. I do have to admit they are always my lowest lvl charature because of the time needed to lvl them.

I usually just load up with as many pots as I can carry and away I go. From experience with other games, yes I know there are some bad players out there but please don't say all warriors are bad.

I happen to think I'm a pretty nice person myself ^^

Maple Story
Priest lvl 82
Page lvl 42
Bandit lvl 46

Rappelz
Assassin lvl 55
Priest lvl 50

Flyff
Blade lvl 60
Assist lvl 57
Magician lvl 53

SOS
Rouge lvl 31
Fighter lvl 17

loadrunner

12-10-2007, 04:53 PM

That's why you only go to boss fights with people you know well. So if they do run off, you can just beat them up irl. @o@

TenshiShukuya

12-10-2007, 07:20 PM

OMG, this thread has been around a long while... At least I can say I didn't rez it. ^_^ But since it has been Rez'd le'me add my own two bits.

I love playing a cleric. Originally my first character was a fighter, but I changed to cleric because of the starter clothes I found them attractive, yeah I know stupid reason, But only later did I find that with my poor connection playing a cleric was the best choice I could have made.

That said, as a cleric, I absolutely hate it when ANY party member demands Free allocation of items (unless it's for a quest) Fighter or not. It's just not kosher, all party's put a lot of effort into fighting when in a party, so all party's deserve a random split of the loot. That way no one is abusing the whole pick up thing. Sure it can suck when someone else gets the good item, but your time will come when especially if you are in a good party.

Secondly. I LOVE my duo with a DD Fighter. I prefer them to tanks any day. So long as that fighter does what is needed to keep the mobs off me, I'll do my damnist to keep them alive.

As a cleric, with the people I know and tend to fight with regularly, I can definately side with the fighters that you line up and imply are all egotistical maniacs, that don't like sharing. In my simple duo party that I have, the fighter who is a DD fighter, shares with me all the time. She's always got leadership, she always takes tanks, and when she's unable we get someone who can. She buys things for me to make me a better cleric, and she doesn't have to she knows that, but she chooses to. heck She was able to lvl 5 times faster than me and stopped lvling and went to vending just to give me time to solo so I can catch up. (it's been a week) if anything what I've just described is the complete opposite of what you say fighters are. So no, not ALL fighters are Jerks.

However, since I have been soloing for the last week, (and I'm over lvl 35) I have noticed that there are an exceptional amount of jerks out there, in every class, and YES I have witnessed fighters displaying the activity you are describing... I usually have nothing to do with them after words, it's called Choice, you choose to continue to deal with it or you find something better suited for you.

And so yeah, I can agree, that when you find those fighters that are the way you describe (the negative way) that something needs to be done about them. Know what I do.. I leave their party.. yup.. I'll leave a party, and they can die if they are being stupid, usually not before I give a warning. And I am very upfront. If I witness a jerk being a jerk I'll call them on it. I'll give them warnings, and if they ignore me I'll leave them right then and there, and they can die angry at me for all I care, my conscious is clear. But usually I've noticed that when I'm firm with people and tell them like it is they work with me, and if they can't they don't deal with me.

another thing.. You described yourself in there fighting... so here's my question to you, how good of a healer can you possibly be if you are fighting... You accuse other classes like the fighters for not doing their "job" the one they are best at, but how can a cleric be doing the job it's best at in a party, if it's fighting??? In the party you describe you with 1 tank, 1 mage, 1 archer, and two clerics.. The clerics definitely don't need to be fighting.. First off the mage and archer will be doing the dmg so you don't need to help in that area, and second, I know from experiences is damn hard to fight, heal self, heal others, and keep track of monsters, buffs and everything else, plus you risk the chance of something going wrong and not being able to come back from it... So to me, as a cleric, I think it sounds awfully strange that you'd be putting yourself, the healer at risk. As my DD Fighter, who tanks as well says.. "let me die, you heal" because if I die no one rez's, if she dies I can always rez her after.

And for those of you who seem to think a cleric can cure curse.. as far as I know we can't, that's something mage's do later on.(I believe it was mage's could be wrong) *Least to my experience* Broken bones, Bleed outs, poisons, and anything physical sure, after that.. No. So it's pretty much a waste of time to demand a curse removal from a class that even til mid 30's in level can't remove curses. If you fear you'll be getting curses take up collecting or creating scrolls they work believe it or not.

Also, for those of you who demand rez's please be nice about it and realize in a party if a cleric has gotten to the point where they are defending themselves you'll get a rez only when the cleric survives, IF the cleric survives, not before, (unless we can run away from what ever and then come back) even then there is a cool time.. so No we can't rez everyone instantly.

Summit

12-10-2007, 10:18 PM

Oook first off you shouldn't accuse the whole class of being self centered and what not based on a few experiances there are a wide majority of people who play all types of classes. It isn't the fact that only jerks and what not play fighters it seems to me that some just have bad luck in choosing party members or friends to grind with in the game you can't hold a small number of people to represent the 100+ or so who play fighters there are many bad apples in the game, instead of accusing everyone who plays the class it's better to just jot these names down and be sure to avoid them in the future.

flowwithit

12-26-2007, 08:59 PM

hey not all fighters are bad. I'm a lvl 24 and I try to help whereever I can.

Sarukia

01-01-2008, 08:34 PM

i'm a fighter and i normally solo out of the 10 or so parties i been in its the other classes who took everything i mean ever last item that dropped and told me where to go what to do. so you should stop complainning about fighters all classes have jerks not just fighters. class has nothing to do with the person controlling most people have more then one type of char and act the same way on all of them.

Oirasse

01-01-2008, 08:54 PM

Some fighters can be annoying, but I know a LOT of fighters who ROCK!!

Llessur

01-01-2008, 09:43 PM

Clerics with full END can also tank but he doesn't have aggro control while tank have aggro control with mock and taunt.

Umm... your wrong there, clerics can take aggro.

ChaosSeraph

01-01-2008, 10:16 PM

Hey hey hey, its not just the class -_-''

Scadel

01-02-2008, 07:09 AM

tsk tsk sterotyping.

bad.

Asheer

01-02-2008, 09:23 AM

Interesting discusion :)

Like was here post, all classes have advantages and disadvantages, and overconfidence towards own abilites may sometimes drag a more problem as we can handle.

I play as fighter and usually play solo and use 1h sword and shield( i try 2h and axe but comeback to 1h), but if i am in party i try to watch over my party members and care less about allocation settings.

I often party whit cleric(from my guild or neutral)and when i fight one eye keep on my HP bar but second on HPs(or SP when concern clerics) rest of group and when see that for example SP of our cleric running dangerously low (Sand Hill for example is SP eater ;) )i tell her to rest and recover lost SP and in meantime watch that no monster will cause problems for her durring rest :).
Of couse sometimes mobs are able mop us (try fight 3 Arhons and 4 desert wolves in this same time...).

And here we come to second part of grinding events..., killing by monsters.
If iam get gunned down and see that my cleric partner have chance to win combat i wait and NOT discract her because i known that such acting will cost life us both.

One time i party in Burning Hill (Marlones camp) whit cleric and archer.
I never seen before so unpatience archer :D, our cleric have almoust no time to recover SP because of him and of course dead end for him comes inevitable because she have no SP for rez him and he wraped to city.
Not to mention that he was a little rude toward our cleric so we decide to end this...

We all deppend from eachother, fighters can solo in most cases BUT soon or later HP stones and pots counter will show 0 and you face alternative:wrap to city or make last suicide attack, this same is whit SP users.
Stones and pots are not neverending [however whit pots is a slight diference when you have pots production skill so you can (if you have sufficent amount of ingrediens) replace lost pots].

And its true thats many party members try act in this same mod as they play solo and when they kiss dirt in another part of map separate from rest of party by mob army starting shout "REZ ME...!!!", sometimes adding plz (i skipped other inapropriate words using sometimes in such sytuations), [frightfull shortcut (plz) by the way, similar to short description of my country currency :D ], so if you encounter that your party members are rude toward you simply quit and try find another group :).

Shadowic2

01-02-2008, 10:27 AM

Not all fighters are like that.
Keep in mind there are alot of self-centered greedy morons of every class on this game.
When I had my old account I was a fighter. I would DIE just to keep my party safe.
If that meant mocking and drawing countless monsters that I knew I couldn't handle to myself, giving my party members a chance to run away, I would do it.
If I was party leader, I would always keep it on sequencial unless someone else or myself needed a quest item. So if it was on Free Allocation, I would only take every other item, or every 2nd or 3rd, depending on how many people in my party. And if I accidently took more (sometimes i get trigger happy with the 2 button @_@) I'd trade the person who's turn it was to get an item and give it to them.
So just because someone is a Fighter doesn't make them a horrible person, it's just the idiot behind the keyboard as someone has said before on this forum.
But I do understand your frustration, some people in this game only care about their own benefit. Usually when I found out they are, and they are in my party, <.< I leave and reform. It's important to surround yourself with decent people you can trust ^^. And leave the rest to throw a fit and cuss you out with asterisks!. XD

erinalesia

01-02-2008, 12:38 PM

Just thought i'd add to the thread my bad fighter tale. I started a mage, and was doing a Slime KQ. The "Tank" Rushed Through and never taunted even when my mage drew aggro. I finnaly got tired of it and Told him several times to kick, And I guess it made him mad so He started calling me a stupid Bitc* and a bunch of other things. Then had to the nerve to snear and say hey i saved you, next time i'll let you die Bitc*. The only time I wished for pvp so I could show him whats up on my Fighter haha :D

Lythari

01-02-2008, 09:01 PM

All classes have their...intellecutally challenged individuals. This makes me want to say things like:

"If idiots could fly, this would be a freakin' airport"

and

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers"

However, I won't. I get frustrated with any class that doesn't do their job to the best of their ability. Clerics catch a lot of heat. One of them on a KQ I did recently just could do no right for his party. They kept jumping on his case about how he isn't healing well or isn't focusing enough. Amazingly, it was the fighters who were ridin' his case. They are given the responsibility of keeping everyone alive. However, we have cool times, lag, and all matter of other issues too. It's easy to forget that, but if you fully trust your life to someone else, that will happen. Clerics can heal, but so can potions and stones. Maybe not as well, but it will keep you alive even if just a little longer.

That being said, I have also met very kind and forgiving fighters who were patient, even if I didn't get that one heal in just in time. The would just wait until I rezzed them and go on like nothing happened.

No back to my original point. I will get frustrated with anyone who isn't doing right by the team. I have seen a lot of mages and archers move faster than the fighters, and die because no one was there to cover their butts. They attacked something before a fighter could distract it, and got owned when the thing walked right up to them and slapped them around a little. When that happens, I'll remind them to watch what they shoot at. Sometimes, the fighters rush ahead of the group, and leave everyone open to attack from behind. When that happens, I tell them to slow down. If an archer or mage lures a monster to the group, and the fighters don't try to pull the monster away, I remind them of their wonderful kick ability (which I'm not convinced that fighters understand it's purpose until 25). If the clerics try to tank when it isn't necessary...well just about everyone in the KQ reminds them before I do.

Point being, all classes serve a purpose. If someone falls short of fulfilling thier purpose to the best of their abilities, then I believe that they may need a kick in the pants. Not all are snobs. Not all are idiots. Some just don't know what they need to be doing. Sometimes, it takes longer for people to figure out the nature of this game: TEAMWORK AND COOPERATION.

That means NOT calling everyone who is less than perfect a stupid newbie or idiot. That means NOT insulting people's opinion on things because you think you are right or smarter. That means NOT telling people how to play their game if they already have a system that works for the team. And that means NOT thinking any one class is better, more important, or more deserving of the spoils of war than ANYONE ELSE.

"The way a team plays as a whole determines its success. You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club wont be worth a dime"

"Teamwork is the ability to work as a group toward a common vision, even if that vision becomes extremely blurry."

"Coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is progress. Working together is success."

And my personal favorite:

"True...there is no "I" in team, but there is a "U" in suck."

Serric

01-02-2008, 10:04 PM

what a beautiful skirt of the point. apparently you're not intelligent enough to handle subtlety, so let me throw it right out there.

I can tell by this one post and your sig alone that you're not only extremely closed minded, but not very bright either.

its a thread about fighters in the discussion section. not our fault you were dumb enough to come in here expecting anything other than discussions about fighters.

but thank you for your amazing post, you contributed so much to this thread and your insight is greatly appreciated.

so the cost to grind for a fighter and an archer is different but the payout is equal?

go back to china you commy scum.

Woah! you're getting VERY close to violating board rules

Wrong - that is not VERY close, it's flat-out overstepping the line.

I would like to take this moment to remind EVERYONE to remain civil. Period. If you cannot contribute to this or any thread without refraining from personal attacks then please don't respond at all.

AdamWest, I apologize for quoting you the most but let's be frank, you had the most infractions in your posts.

Keep it clean. If you can't, then remember the golden rule: "If you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all"

Now, as far as my personal opinion in this topic, I have to agree with the adage “don’t blame the character, blame the player”. Every class has a purpose and every player will play that class differently. I play both a fighter and an archer and play them completely differently.

At the time of this post, my fighter is a pure end lvl 10 fighter. Whilst in a King Slime KQ I found that clerics weren’t healing, archers weren’t pulling (until I reminded them to do so) and then fighters weren’t pulling the agro off of the archers when they DID pull. So, although I had a def of 66 and wasn’t really in a position to be a stopping force to these silver and iron slimes, I’d be the one to kick and pull agro off of an archer. That’s not to say that is how every fighter acts or should act, but that’s how I play her.

Don’t judge a book by its cover and don’t judge a class form one group of players. Take it as a learning experience and move on. If you don’t like how they play their character, then make an effort to play yours how you think it should be done. Lead by example.

Peace.

hyperswoss

01-02-2008, 10:09 PM

Wow.

@OP: How did I know you were a cleric?

gobangwall86

01-03-2008, 12:11 AM

Now, as far as my personal opinion in this topic, I have to agree with the adage “don’t blame the character, blame the player”. Every class has a purpose and every player will play that class differently. I play both a fighter and an archer and play them completely differently.

Don’t judge a book by its cover and don’t judge a class form one group of players. Take it as a learning experience and move on. If you don’t like how they play their character, then make an effort to play yours how you think it should be done. Lead by example.

Peace.

nice fact, things like this does not only happen in games, it happens IRL too
i happen to live in a multi racial country and things like this happens, just because of a small group of ppl from a same race does bad things here n there, u hate the whole race for that...that's absurb

in every race, there's @$$holes to ruin things for them. Things like, fighters sucks coz every fighter i met couldnt do what they are supposed to do is just the same. Not every fighter is a jerk, not every cleric is a jerk. i've seen cleric who doesnt heal, i've seen cleric who lets their party members die, i've seen cleric who just couldn't be bothered about their party members. i've seen fighters who demanded heals, i've seen fighters who does not wants to use stones, i've seen fighters who curse clerics for not healing, and i've seen fighters who ran away with the mob just because the cleric was occupied and end up dying and cursing away.

@ clerics : it's not ez to tank, it's not just about mock and snearing kick..there's more to it that meets the eye. Holding the group of mob to ourselves is one thing, keeping the party safe from stray mobs or ambush is another thing. Pots and stones has cooldown so do not expect us to be able to spam pots and stones all the time. Same goes to snearing kick and mock

@ fighters : clerics are not god, they can't keep you alive if you are not being cooperative, they have cooldowns, they have cast time, they have other party members to look after, you are not king so do not order clerics around or curse them if they failed to heal you and they do not have infinite sp reserves so do not expect them to spam stones if u r not willing to do that urself. it's important to know ur limit, do not cross over if u do not know what u r dealing with.

do not blame others, blame only urself, blaming others will not help u improve. look at what went wrong and try to find a solution. if ur party sucks just leave, it's as simple as that. i've solo tank alot of KQs before, and there are ppl whom are nice enough to heal me eventhough i'm not in their party. this is just a game, dying in game does not shorten your life, so chill..or u'll really shorten ur life by getting mad over something so small.

Cheers.:cool: