Shaolin Woes

[expoint]

Dear fellow Windslayers,

Stop complaining about Shaolin's Triple Attack and Merciless Strike. If you haven't figured it out already those two attacks are the equivalent of an Freezing Ice attack. No you say? Let's check the damage out put...

Triple does 50 Damage on average... so 50x3 hits= 150
Merciless does 30 damage on average... so 30x6 hits= 180
Mage Ice attack does 200 damage on average
Archer Ice attack does 140 damage on average
Warrior Ice attack does 150 damage on average

Insert lame retort here-> "Well they spam (lol) Triple and Merciless." Well first of all use your block button a little more often. Secondly, lets look at best case scenario of follow up skills/ moves.

Monk:
Triple-> Merci-> Triple= 150+180+150= 480

Mage:
Elementalist-
Ice-> Blizzard-> Fire Wall= 200+300+300= 800
Summoner-
Ice-> Ice-> Meteor= 200+100(+)+300= 500 Minimum

Archer-
Ice-> Fire-> JumpShot= 100+150+80= 330, (JumpShot can be substituted for Animal Attack for more damage)

Warrior-
Beserker-
Ice-> Cresent-> DashAttack= 150+130+150= 430

So damage wise it goes...

Mage: 800
Monk: -320
Warrior: -370
Archer: -470

That's best case scenario for each class... worst case scenario...

Monk:
Triple/ Merci is Blocked: 50 damage to opponent, MONK IS LOCKED INTO PLACE for X Amount of seconds

Mage:
Opponent takes 200 damage, Mage is shortly vulnerable at usually with some distance apart from opponent

Archer:
Opponent takes 100 damage, Archer is shortly vulnerable at usually with good distance apart from opponent

Warrior:
Opponent takes 150 damage, Warrior is open briefly

Pros and Cons of each "freeze" attack...

Monk: Becomes "invulnerable" while attacking, but is very much open after the attack. Seriously, how many times have you sat behind a Shao's Triple Attack waiting to nuke his ****?

Mage: High damage, and Range... both blizzard and ice

Warrior: Ice Damage spikes upwards creating a wall

Archer: Off screen range

Finally, with this I say stop complaining about Shaolin's and learn to use block!

PS.
NERF ROGUES

[xserpenterax]

Gah thank you for making this so clear. Hopefully I won't have to hear so much **** about how my Shaolin is "cheap".

[blake3470]

Well expoint, from what I see, I bet you are a shaolin who spams the punch move alot. The reason everyone (including me) gets so annoyed with it, is that you are INVINCIBLE when you perform those moves. A mage's ice move doesn't make the mage invincible. -.- And the fact that most shaolins spam it because they suck, they know it, and they can't do anything else, is what drives us all nuts. It gives shaolins an unfair advantage. If you weren't invincible while doing it, it would be more fair.

Example: Random shaolin runs away from a person, then turns around and does spammy punch while a teammate just sits there without being able to do anything because your invincible while doing it. Then the noob shaolin repeats.
-.- How is that NOT cheap?

The way I see it is that any "strategy" or "skill" that doesn't involve any pure skill at all, is cheap. Just the way I see that many trappers run around randomly planting bombs and praying that they hit. That would be cheap because it involves no skill whatsoever. Some trappers however, attack and fight and whatever, while laying bombs around the area to give them an advantage. That is called "skill".

I would love to see a shaolin like that, but I have yet to see one so far (and lemme tell you, I pvp a TON).

[deoxys114]

You say that they are vulnerable after being blocked there? Guess what. They are vulnerable, then someone ices them. The Shao quickly blocks that and BAM! Easy hit with one of those moves. They are invincible and you are being damaged. Then BAM! Right after that, they hit you with a flaming kick. They dash and grab you, and you're stuck in another one of those skills.

It's just spam dude. I've seen only a few use those skills with...skill.

[doki_]

...Leaf Rogue alone.
They don't need to nerf.

Also,Monks aren't "Vulnerable"...
They have a skill that lets them take hits and be able make movements while being hit. — Don't they have a skill like that?

....

[remikz]

Well think about it... the attack would REALLY suck if you could be hit out of it because each hit does a small amount of damage.

[doki_]

Add On : To The Negative Remarks Towards Shaolins .
Also,for the mates who call the Shaolins "Non-skill'd" or "Spammers."
Thank you for stating that.Now go make a Shaolin and have self-experience situation before stating anything else . If not,then each time you state something negative 'bout them say,"iDon't have shaolin" Then everyone will understand a bit more clearly.

Why?What class are you?What skills do you have?HOW MANY SKILLS ARE ACTUALLY USEFUL?
Shaolin don't have a lot skills that are THAT useful as what your class may be.
Don't believe? Then explain why they basically only use 2 skills.Oh,btw,count their lvl,too.Cause they don't completely get the best ones 'til what lvl ?

Oh,the best part is : Its Melee. So,you're able to get away from it and its able to be block'd,too.
Rogue : Hide
Mage : teleport..Long Range
Archer : Use your tactic,jump..Long Range
Priest : Um..Not sure.Heal?Long Range?
Warrior : Don'tKnow much 'bout this class and with that iSay,"You're Melee.BUT it may not be the same?"

[kitoari]

Ah yes, the infamous Shaolins Invincibility skills, how I hate thee. They do have a point though, getting hit out of it would make the skills useless. I propose that when they use them, instead of being invincible, they are treated as thought they were guarding. This would keep it fair while not making it broken.
Just my two cents.

[raygeku]

When i fight Edd i just block and it turns out fine. I am a counter BTW. No after learning i can block the move and how to avoid it i see that, the trick to beating shaolins is that. Without the invincibility the shaos are nothing. They would get owned too much....way too much.

[seph82]

here the real situation about shaolin's skills:
1)You said: " You can block this 2 skills", yes it's true but there's only 2 problems: this 2 skills execution are to fast and second if we try stay in guard, the shaolin grab you and use fire kick.
2)The delay about this 2 skills is zero and dont cost much mp for use them....
3)Mage's aoe have a long delay and the mp for use it is hight.....
4)Dont worry shaolin arent the only one spam, even trapper have zero delay when use marionette-poison-stun-bomb....

And yes most of shaolins arent good in PvP, and the only thing annoying they always spam this combo and hunt the weak one always and always...so before open a topic like this learn use all your skills and dont count to much only with 2...

[raygeku]

You don't have to stay in guard for the whole skill. If you block the beginning, just get in back of the shaolin and count 2 secs. Then execute your skill.

[lynn.novice]

Those 2 skills are what makes shaolin playable, making us not invincible would just kill the class completely. Doing 20 damage and then is interrupted? Gimme a break. If this change ever gonna happen then a boost in the damage of these 2 skills is a must and we are all happy.

Also, if you really find these 2 skills annoying, try use the class yourself, since I'm a shaolin player myself, I find it very easy to deal with other shaolins. Learn the class and then complain.

Again, I have to emphasis, shaolin needs these 2 skills to be competitive, nerf them then you might as well bring shaolin to extinction like paladins, coz all monks would just go to counter.

[raygeku]

Well Lynn, i don't agree with what your saying. I don't think it would kill the class to not have it invisible between those two moves. To a point, no other class is invisible while they throw a skill except trappers bombs. Your analogy on all monks going to counter. You are aware most monks are going to shaolin right. If the skills did not make you invincible, then the only way to interrupt it would be by blocking which is completely normal. Imagine if rogues were invincible while they perform the move stun. Also shaolins get no delay whatsoever using that move. If you miss, you get no penalty rather than the cool down. This allows the person to use the move without having to think it through or being afraid. Now the way we could fix this is by changing the animation of the skill. Letting players know which is which would help a ton in successfully countering it. Finally add a small delay if you miss, so you dont use it carelessly.

[kkt0376]

ppl who complains about shaolins... make a shaolin and you will like it. I don;t have a shaolin atm but if you have shaolin you will love it. It is easy to use and good in dm. and one more thing, ppl whose 2nd class are different hates each other. Especially assassins and trappers. Assassins call trappers cheapos, spam bombs, and cheap puppet combos. Trappers call assassins noobs, don't have good skills or combos, and they suk. It's..kinda sad. Well idk...heh
-rat-
WindSlayer
XRATMX: Assassin lvl 47 Professional lvl 2

[lynn.novice]

Well Lynn, i don't agree with what your saying. I don't think it would kill the class to not have it invisible between those two moves. To a point, no other class is invisible while they throw a skill except trappers bombs. Your analogy on all monks going to counter. You are aware most monks are going to shaolin right. If the skills did not make you invincible, then the only way to interrupt it would be by blocking which is completely normal. Imagine if rogues were invincible while they perform the move stun. Also shaolins get no delay whatsoever using that move. If you miss, you get no penalty rather than the cool down. This allows the person to use the move without having to think it through or being afraid. Now the way we could fix this is by changing the animation of the skill. Letting players know which is which would help a ton in successfully countering it. Finally add a small delay if you miss, so you dont use it carelessly.

Look, the reason why people complain is because for 1: the skill excution time is extremely fast, 2: invincibility and able to escape right after.

But like I've said before, if you play the shaolin class yourself, you will find it VERY easy to deal with them.

1) The skill may be fast but the hitting range is not, often you are able to see shaolin on the map before they use the skill, so guard it.

2) If you play a shaolin you will know exactly how these 2 skills work, Triple Attack attacks 3 times, maybe it's invincible during the animation, but is NOT after, time it well and you can guarentee a hit. Meciless attacks 6 times the difference is that triple does 40 around damage and meci does only 20-30 damage, you can easily tell which 1 is which.

Your point on rogue does not apply here, when someone is stunned every others can hit the target, while if someone is being hit by shaolin, BOTH are invincible.

And a nerf on these 2 skills WILL kill the class completely, who in the world would use 20-40 mp just for a measly 30 damage leave yourself 5 seconds vulnerable of being hit? I'd just go for the more damage dealing class - Counter, and I'm sure 90% of the shaolins will do the same.

AGAIN, I have to say this, you can easily tell distinguish these 2 skills, just know their damage output and with a little timing you can almost always hit the shaolin right after the animation. Coz I can tell, am I different to you people? Maybe, just because I play the class and I know it's weakness.

Only possible changes I see is to 1) make these 2 skills similar to that of Assassin and Berserker's charging skill which is a 1 hit skill with extreme fast attack animation, since no-one seems complaining about them. 2) Like you said, change the animations of both skills slightly so people can tell the difference much easier -_-"" 3) Give Triple attack a longer CD, I agree that it is way to fast ATM.

[raygeku]

The hitting range of this skill is incredible compared to our normal hitting range of punches. Don't bring out range in this.

I know how to deal with shaolins. I can beat any of them.

Besides that, nothing else to say.

[doki_]

Lynn [Smiles] She speaks truth.Look at the first page iPractically said the same,too.

You can't "complain" 'bout a class or give "suggestions" without self-exp'd.

[kkt0376]

hey raygeku, i don't know what's ur main char is but i doubt that u can beat every shaolins. Whos ur main char?
-rat-

[lynn.novice]

The hitting range of this skill is incredible compared to our normal hitting range of punches. Don't bring out range in this.

I know how to deal with shaolins. I can beat any of them.

Besides that, nothing else to say.

The range only "seems" incredibly far because most Shaolins do a dash first then follow by these skills. The actual range is only about 1/2 of a mage spell. And why not bring range in this, isn't it 1 of those IMBA factor of these 2 skills?

Besides this, Assassins and Berserkers both have a similar skill that is also as fast as light speed and difficult to hit after they are performed, seems no-one is complaining about them eh?

[raygeku]

Don't compare any other class's range to a monks range. The range of this skill is still more than usual monks should have not to mentioned unrealistic.

The assasin's skill assasinate to me does less damage and cannot be continues by another assasinate. Basically a shaolin can continue these two skills. You can block but, sometimes, it doesn't work out. But yeah, you can stop assasination with an offensive move of jump kicking whereas not the same in shaolin.

P.S. I think the real problem is that this skill doesnt have to hit contact with the enemy to hit. When a character dashes at us we have a notion that they have to get close enough to us to hit us. For example when fighting a rogue we try to estimate the range of the dagger to avoid stuns. Assassination can be seen miles away. Also , as a counter, i can say that all my skills need to touch to hit whereas the shaolin skill does not. Still shaolins are not that hard to beat in my opinion. Im just in this argument for the lols.

[caducus]

The range only "seems" incredibly far because most Shaolins do a dash first then follow by these skills. The actual range is only about 1/2 of a mage spell. And why not bring range in this, isn't it 1 of those IMBA factor of these 2 skills?

Besides this, Assassins and Berserkers both have a similar skill that is also as fast as light speed and difficult to hit after they are performed, seems no-one is complaining about them eh?

Easy, you can do a counter attack after being hit with those two skills most of the time. With a shoalin, they will do a fire kick(which knocks you back) or switch to the other skill that makes you immune to damage.

Another thing: you can damage a Sin or a Zerger after it or when it is in the middle of dealing damage. With a Shoalin you need to wait. On top of that, they can set up a block, a dash, or a jump block. Yes I seen shaolins just dash in, triple, then quickly dash out and never get hit in a match.

Last thing: The Zerger skill has a LONG delay at the end that leaves them open for attacks. You can you don't even have to block and you can turn around and get a free hit in if you're fast enough.

You're making it seem that these skills suck. They don't. Just about any one can pick up a shaolin, use these two skills, and be good in pvp. Then if you take these skills in the hand of an expert, you just get something that is very, very hard to beat.

P.S. For a warrior to do that much damage with Ice and creasent, we must use increase attack power first.

[lynn.novice]

You have the point which we all agree, those 2 skills are easy to use, and almost anyone that picked shaolin can be good in pvp, no argument there.

Yes I seen shaolins just dash in, triple, then quickly dash out and never get hit in a match.

^This, is what makes the majority of the players mad because most of non-shaolin players are clueless when the combo will end and it seems impossible for them to tell which skill is being performed and when they do, it is already too late to hit that shaolin.

Which is already explained by my posts before, they are NOT difficult to deal with if you actually have played the class, or pay some attention to their moves. Really, when I see an opposing shaolin mindlessly charged into the middle of our team with those combos thinking they will get away made me laugh, coz this often ends their game right there.

To anyone that knows how to deal with those skills, congratulations, you should see exactly how vulnerable shaolins truely are, that is to average skilled shaolin players.

And to raygeku, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that shaolin > counter nor am I saying all monks should go for shaolin because they are easy and can combo non-stop blah blah. A good counter takes definitely much much more effort than a equivalent shaolin player. And in fact, Counter is the only "non-spamming" 2nd job class in the game, all other classes can "spam" at least 1 of their skills (it's the truth). Which is the reason why I look upon to all skillful Counter players. If you are 1, then you have my respect. TBH, if I'm allowed to choose the 2nd job once again, I'd definitely go for Counter, a class that requires lots thinking and practice to dominate the arena is tbe sort of achievement that I'm looking for.


Once again, to the argument of the topic (and for those that don't bother read my long post):

My point is that both skills are not hard to deal with once you know what you're doing. They may be the hardest skills to time, but it can be done...with a little effort of paying attention to the animations. So don't complain about "OMFG, u noob, u only win coz we cant hit u". A nerf like removing the invincibility would just kill the class completely. However please do complain about "OMG, u spamming noob, u cant do anything else" because it is so true that outside of these 2 skills, a Shaolin really can't do much.

P.S Assassin's assassination doesn't seem to have a finishing delay to me, they can attack then run away straight after. Yes it can be interrupted during the execution but so can the Shaolin skills. For the Bezerker's 1, yea it depends on your distance, if you charge from far away then you will be stopping right next to your opponent and with that long finishing delay, you will be hit. But if you charge from a range close enough then you can get away.

[raygeku]

Lynn, These words you said "A good counter takes definitely much much more effort than a equivalent shaolin player." have truly touched me. (no sarcasm) I've also been thinking the same thing for some times now but all i hear when i ask a shaolin is no. Well, so far, i have not buts. Nice post. Keep up the good work.

[darkest_mage]

Lynn got most of it right. Seriously if you pvp enough you know the combo spammers from the really good smart ones. All u gotta do is block and they will be a sitting duck for the duration of the combo. but its sorta hard to figure out if they are doing a 3 hit combo or a 6 hit which makes countering sorta hard. what irks me the most is that the MOVE IS QUICK. i probably shouldnt say this but i am :) For some reason that move is faster then a firewall.... After some random shaolins merciless was finished i casted a firewall after the 5th hit and we all know that firewall have long lasting hit boxes.... but somehow hes able to get a triple hit while avoiding the firewall.... he did it multiple times as well =/

[expoint]

Please don't question my abilities with my monk. Some may know him... MiGG. At this time I would just like to note that I feel that every 2nd class, aside from Paladin, has ALOT more to work with at level 49 than a Shaolin.

[caducus]

Please don't question my abilities with my monk. Some may know him... MiGG. At this time I would just like to note that I feel that every 2nd class, aside from Paladin, has ALOT more to work with at level 49 than a Shaolin.

HA, THe Zerker 49 skill has no use. Almost every one of our 2nd class skills can do about the same amount of damage as it, with out costing us 50 hp and 50 mp. Heck one of our level 20 skills can out damage it by a good 50 damage. Also it's single target when it should be an AoE move. Ask any, I mean any Zerker pass 49 and they will all tell you it is complet crap...oh wait, you'll have problems finding a Zerker pass 49 since there is only about 6 of them compared to the number of Shaolins.

[raygeku]

Please don't question my abilities with my monk. Some may know him... MiGG. At this time I would just like to note that I feel that every 2nd class, aside from Paladin, has ALOT more to work with at level 49 than a Shaolin.

Im a counter and i have 4 attack skills and 1 self like you o.O.

[expoint]

caducus, perhaps i was unclear. I'm saying that a Lvl 49 Shaolin, a 49 Beserker, (and Ill add a) 49 Counter.

Shaolins will receive 2-3 significant moves.. Tripple, Mercililess, and Super Wind Kick. All three of which are not significantly overwelming and are more of an annoyer than anything. However, at lvl 49 the Shaolin's Fire Kick that he got at lvl 10 is still his best move.

I don't know the name of the berserker skills but with 2 Attack Buffs, Cresent, Ice Attack, and that funky sounding charge attack. One can't take beserker's to lightly.

Counters get all the kick *** moves. They get, Cartiledge, Dragon Kick, and Counter. Moves that can seriously rack up damage in little to no time.