Do Wings Violate TOS?

[holli_hobbi]

I'm getting really frustrated. We are being charged a lot of real money to buy Meridian R's in order to create wings, etc. But then those wings can then be sold for literally HUNDREDS of xen. Isn't this trading SparkCash for in-game wealth? It seems to me that Outspark is violating its own Terms of Service. What are your takes on this?

[catry]

Would you rather wings be made untradable thus making it near-impossible for players without SC to get them? O.o

[poochyenarulez]

your not trading the anything sc, xc item might have helped make it, but that don't make an item sc

[Ayanami]

Honestly what I kinda wonder about is....does Outspark qualify as a "gambling" website? Think about it...we pay real money for an item that gives us a CHANCE of creating/enhancing an item. Often times, those meridians just go down the toilet without any reward.

There would be some interesting legal implications if indeed the cashshop could be classified as an online gambling venue.

Just something that crossed my mind.

[AzNRuthLess]

Honestly what I kinda wonder about is....does Outspark qualify as a "gambling" website? Think about it...we pay real money for an item that gives us a CHANCE of creating/enhancing an item. Often times, those meridians just go down the toilet without any reward.

There would be some interesting legal implications if indeed the cashshop could be classified as an online gambling venue.

Just something that crossed my mind.

Something like this would imply legal action. And legal action is something the GM's don't take lightly, or as I remember, a GM, I won't name, was going to permanently ban me for joking about legal action. >.>

But I can see your point, and it makes perfect sense. As something we spend money on, gives us a "chance" to acquire something. Same as in gambling online, we can cough up money to get a "chance" to maybe win something. And to top it off, the game is for I believe 13 years of age or older? Correct me if I'm wrong O.o

I know there are going to be others who will just look at this and say, "Oh well, it's a Free to Play game, no one is forcing you to purchase SC, blah blah blah..."

[catry]

Honestly what I kinda wonder about is....does Outspark qualify as a "gambling" website? Think about it...we pay real money for an item that gives us a CHANCE of creating/enhancing an item. Often times, those meridians just go down the toilet without any reward.

There would be some interesting legal implications if indeed the cashshop could be classified as an online gambling venue.

Just something that crossed my mind.

Wouldn't a gambling site require a return that can be quantified in an actual monetary value? In-game items technically cannot be valued by any established currency. O.o

[AzNRuthLess]

Wouldn't a gambling site require a return that can be quantified in an actual monetary value? In-game items technically cannot be valued by any established currency. O.o

Ooooh, that makes sense too. :D

[Ayanami]

Wouldn't a gambling site require a return that can be quantified in an actual monetary value? In-game items technically cannot be valued by any established currency. O.o

I've often wondered about that myself. I'll bet at one point there was some lawsuit between players from World of War- errr, I mean, another popular online game, regarding things like stolen in-game items. So, I'm sure there is some legal precedence stating that "virtual" items that require real cash to obtain either are or are not considered something like property. Like, could you really sue someone if you could prove that they stole your +5 defense wings?

Of course I am too lazy to google this myself right now. I look forward to someone researching this for me so I can wake up to an answer.

Errr, and just to cover my butt....
Dear GMs: I'm not gonna sue Outspark, please don't ban me. >_<

[Daft_Brat]

No one makes you buy those items to make the wings, you can still get them even if it's only a 5% chance. To say that wings are against the T.O.S. is just...no.
Last I heard gambling involved placing a bet of a monetary amount on a certain outcome, not purchasing something to increase the odds in your favor. >.>
You're making a purchase of an item knowing full well that it is an item that is only meant to increase your %, not placing a money bet on whether or not your wings succeed.

[dakidda913]

I think it is gambling, and even if the merchandise is in fact virtual, it's still a purchase. It is just like buying a stock.

[AzNRuthLess]

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

straight from wiki...lets discuss! :3 I'm just gonna read.

[opensunflowers]

I think you all have some pretty interesting ideas, and I'd also like to say that I don't foresee this thread staying open that long, lol.

[dakidda913]

We can always make this a legal matter taney ;). XD although this is first time someone has brought this topic up.

[catry]

I think the reason why virtual assets such as in-game items have little to no legal standing is because there is no established currency exchanged between kron and US Dollars. Now, if the issue was over SparkCash it would be another matter because Outspark has set an exchange rate between SC and USD. But once you get in-game, the introduction of a currency on a completely individualized economic system (remember, stocks are still reflected in the real-world economy) not influenced by the real-world economy makes it kinda impossible to sue someone for something like stealing wings (how would they do that anyway? O.o). Unless you can put a monetary price on the item in USD, at least in the American legal system it would have almost no standing whatsoever.

Effectively, by banning kron-for-cash Outspark pretty much wipes any legal concerns on this matter. =O

But why on earth would you want to spend all you would need on court costs etc. just for a a pair of wings? >_>;;

[kandy3]

lol i read all of the posts and guys jeez u have lots of good points the only thing that gms r prbly going to do more of is like they did already have random days where they have buy one bundle get on free thing on merdian Rs. and i dont think no one would want to spend soo much money on sueing outspark for something that isnt really real. unless u go overbaord with it. but increasing the chances of the wings should be a defenite

[requiemofdecember]

Isnt it that SC items arent tradeable or anything though? and the SC items usually show up in blue. Ive seen Meridian R's for sell in some people's shops, like they get them in drops? I havent seen them drop ever - Im just wondering about this?

[AzNRuthLess]

Isnt it that SC items arent tradeable or anything though? and the SC items usually show up in blue. Ive seen Meridian R's for sell in some people's shops, like they get them in drops? I havent seen them drop ever - Im just wondering about this?

This is something I have always wondered about, since the pet/wings quests first came out. If this was a "true" f2p game, as they advertise it to be, why have the enhancing items that up the chances be SC, and not be ingame items? I mean, if it was a f2p game as advertised, wouldn't it make sense to have the enhancing items as well as the items upping the chances for success ingame as well? They have ingame Meridian R, but why can't we use those? But instead, we have to use SC to acquire those chances, which then again, proves to be a gamble, due to the fact that we are spending real money. But argument still stands, no one forces us to buy those items, and the main enhance items are ingame, so nothing we can really do.

[kandy3]

This is something I have always wondered about, since the pet/wings quests first came out. If this was a "true" f2p game, as they advertise it to be, why have the enhancing items that up the chances be SC, and not be ingame items? I mean, if it was a f2p game as advertised, wouldn't it make sense to have the enhancing items as well as the items upping the chances for success ingame as well? They have ingame Meridian R, but why can't we use those? But instead, we have to use SC to acquire those chances, which then again, proves to be a gamble, due to the fact that we are spending real money. But argument still stands, no one forces us to buy those items, and the main enhance items are ingame, so nothing we can really do.

well u can use xen stones too... but they r still over the board... idk how people find soo many of them

[legendaryJ]

AzNRuthLess you are one smart man i back you up with your statements them selling the meridians makes them not a f2p game.. because we paying them to get a game item to enhance an ingame item or w/e u explained it well but yes thats 100% true..

[danibelle07]

this ish sort of a mess, isn't it?

maybe they should make meridian a super rare drop like xen instead of making it a SC item...

[holli_hobbi]

I just know it costs around $1.50 US dollars per try at wings if you use three Meridian Rs. With a 20% success rate, that means on average, the wings are going to cost $7.50. But the odds of getting a certain type of wings seem to be rather unbalanced. My husband and I have successfully made around six sets of wings. And none of them were either attack or defense. If we are going to be putting this kind of money into wings, what kind of wings we get should be based on our characters class, not random. OR, have the option to pick what kind of wings we want to try for, maybe different quest items for different kinds. Or as I posted on another thread, be able to wear wings as a costume, so you can still use a cloak of love for def, but have the look of wings.

[jrgoofy]

This is a very interesting topic very very interesting
Idk much about legal issues so i'm not gonna say anything bout that, but i think the chances of getting wings are way to low even with the max amount of meridians its only a 20% chance no wonder i failed 18 times and still don't have my own wings(used 3 meridians for 7 of the 18 tries). I would love to see the base chance(5%) be increased a bit maybe to 15 or 20%.
And I also think limiting the amount of meridians to only 3 is just a smart way to make money cause with only 3 meridians we dont even get close to 50% chance so we have more chances of failing and then be tempted to buy more meridian

[tazsbigtoy]

AzNRuthLess you are one smart man i back you up with your statements them selling the meridians makes them not a f2p game.. because we paying them to get a game item to enhance an ingame item or w/e u explained it well but yes thats 100% true..

But you are overlooking the fact that wings, enhanced pets, the accessories, and riding pets are NOT required to play the game. You don't have to have them to play, you make a choice to get them, and you make another choice to purchase the spark cash items.

[lynzy]

all i got to say is that gambling is still gambling no matter that the item is, be it money or an item of value to one peep or another its still gambling. that being said...then u realize that they had everyone gambling since the xens came to the game with the use of them on our gears. this new thingy is only upping the stakes. it involves real money in the mix instead of items found in drops in game. I wonder just how many under age peeps would get to keep playing if thier parents knew the details? Personaly, being a parent, i wouldnt be to happy about it. gambling is a serious adiction to be sublimanaly pushing onto young minds. Its a very thin line that they walk here....but so far as long as they keep their disclaimers going about no ileagal traiding and letting us know its only a chance of success when buying that sc item that is used for wings and suchs they arent leagaly in trouble...if i got my facts right.

[danibelle07]

... the meridian is not a required item for the enhancement, right?
if it's not a required item, it's not really a violation of the TOS.
if it is, then any player who sells any gears or drops they get while wearing SC gear could be fit into this argument. it sucks, yes, and is a horrible pain to buy/make the wings, but it (to me) doesn't seem like a violation.

[himoses]

I have to agree that there is no violation of TOS. For me, there are too many things left to random chance in this game. That is why I stopped buying lucky balls. I started to regret wasting money on them so I stopped sparkcash purchases except for cowbells. I purchased some more sparkcash for wing quest and failed all attempts. I guess I will be satisfied with only spending sparkcash to get my pet to lvl 3 and will stop again. I definitely prefer to purchase permanent items and will spend my real money on items that will make the game more enjoyable and easier to me. No more wings attempts for me. I wasted 9 meridians and I am done with nothing to show for it.

[opensunflowers]

Isnt it that SC items arent tradeable or anything though? and the SC items usually show up in blue. Ive seen Meridian R's for sell in some people's shops, like they get them in drops? I havent seen them drop ever - Im just wondering about this?

I'm pretty sure there is a Meridian R that is a drop from Cobalt Caves that is worthless when enhancing wings, and there is a Sparkcash Meridian R that you buy from the SC store.

(I think. Haven't been in-game in a loooong time.)

[AzNRuthLess]

I can clearly see that yes, it is not against the TOS, because we are knowing full well what to expect from what we buy. The point that I was trying to make was:

If there are Meridian R ingame, why can we NOT use those for upping the chance of success in enhancement? Why are we required to buy the SC Meridian R if we want to up our chances of success? If something was already implemented ingame, why can't we just use that, instead of having to use real money to purchase something that is already ingame? That to me, just does not make sense.

Sure it is not required, etc, etc, etc. But the point is, why make something already ingame, and ready to use, especially being the EXACT IDENTICAL ingame item, into something SC?

*hears a shout in the background* "No one is forcing you to buy SC...it's a F2P game...!!!!"

[tazsbigtoy]

I have to agree that there is no violation of TOS. For me, there are too many things left to random chance in this game. That is why I stopped buying lucky balls. I started to regret wasting money on them so I stopped sparkcash purchases except for cowbells. I purchased some more sparkcash for wing quest and failed all attempts. I guess I will be satisfied with only spending sparkcash to get my pet to lvl 3 and will stop again. I definitely prefer to purchase permanent items and will spend my real money on items that will make the game more enjoyable and easier to me. No more wings attempts for me. I wasted 9 meridians and I am done with nothing to show for it.

I kind of felt the same way after having about 4 fail, so I stopped using the spark cash item. Interestingly enough, after I quit using the spark cash I successfully made 2 sets of wings with only ingame items. If I decide to try and enhance them, I will invest in the moon to keep them from going poof, but really, unenhanced they aren't that usefully.

[Ayanami]

So I did some online research and found that there HAS been some question concerning online games and "gambling" features of those games. Since I can't link directly, here's an excerpt from the article I found:


POPULAR ONLINE GAME Bans Gambling Following FBI Investigation

An ongoing investigation by the FBI into gambling in POPULAR ONLINE GAME is believed to be directly related to POPULAR ONLINE GAME COMPANY's sudden decision to ban all forms of gambling on POPULAR ONLINE GAME.

The FBI investigation commenced in April and was considering the legality of online gambling within the virtual world. The US Government prohibits most forms of online gambling.

It was unclear at the time of writing whether the FBI would take the matter further, including the possible arrest of POPULAR ONLINE GAME COMPANY directors or the prosecution of individual users.

Casinos and gambling have been a prominent part of the POPULAR ONLINE GAME metaverse over the last 2-3 years. POPULAR ONLINE GAME COMPANY will take a financial hit from the decision as casino owners cancel virtual land ownership agreements; top tier casinos contribute large sums in monthly fees to POPULAR ONLINE GAME COMPANY.


The above situation involved actual virtual casinos, but the winnings were "virtual" money (not real money). But since virtual game items are sometimes traded for real money (ebay even had to put a ban on it to avoid lawsuits from online game companies), it seems that even virtual money can be considered an asset.

As a matter of fact, after more searching, I found that there IS some legal precedence for virtual items being treated as real assets in a court of law.

One headline that I found:
Gamer Wins Lawsuit in Chinese Court Over Stolen Virtual Winnings

Anyway, interesting finds.

In regards to SoS....I feel like the Meridian R system IS a form of gambling, because they do not give you any option to essentially BUY the item you are trying to make/enhance. You are limited in how many Meridians you can use, so there is ALWAYS a chance that the enhancement will fail, leaving you with nothing. That, to me, sounds like a good definition for gambling.

Sorry if I've kinda strayed from the Original Poster's intent...

[poochyenarulez]

there was something sue able in sc store awhile ago, but i told mur about it, and they fixed it~
they need to fix the store~~~~

[tengokuken]

This is something I have always wondered about, since the pet/wings quests first came out. If this was a "true" f2p game, as they advertise it to be, why have the enhancing items that up the chances be SC, and not be ingame items? I mean, if it was a f2p game as advertised, wouldn't it make sense to have the enhancing items as well as the items upping the chances for success ingame as well? They have ingame Meridian R, but why can't we use those? But instead, we have to use SC to acquire those chances, which then again, proves to be a gamble, due to the fact that we are spending real money. But argument still stands, no one forces us to buy those items, and the main enhance items are ingame, so nothing we can really do.

What I think would have been best is to have both ingame and sparkcash shop items that would raise our success rate. Let's say we start with 5%, make the ingame items raise it to 20~30% and make the Sc one top it on it to 50~70%. That way, it feels we have a real option either going with ingame items only or top it off with Sc which is bought with Real Money. However, as you clearly say, "no one forces us to buy those items, and the main enhance items are ingame, so nothing we can really do".

But you are overlooking the fact that wings, enhanced pets, the accessories, and riding pets are NOT required to play the game. You don't have to have them to play, you make a choice to get them, and you make another choice to purchase the spark cash items.

Fair enough! Though, what would happen IF every quest we have from now on are Sc related in a way? That's still not much of a F2P in my opinion.


Interesting topic indeed! Though, I don't think it violates the ToS, but plays around it xD

[tazsbigtoy]

Fair enough! Though, what would happen IF every quest we have from now on are Sc related in a way? That's still not much of a F2P in my opinion.


Interesting topic indeed! Though, I don't think it violates the ToS, but plays around it xD

If the quest is required to play or advance the game, I would agree it would no longer be a F2O. So far as I can think of this morning, no experience giving quests are requiring a SC item though.

[tengokuken]

If the quest is required to play or advance the game, I would agree it would no longer be a F2O. So far as I can think of this morning, no experience giving quests are requiring a SC item though.

Yeah, I understand and agree with you. Though that is why I said "IF every quest we have from now is Sc related". We will just have to wait and see how new quests will be...

I still feel kinda feel frustrated at how we need a Sc Item to make sure that our advance pet/wings/accessories doesn't "die" in the process. There is a lot of work, time and ingame/real money invested in it already... That alone is enough to make me shake my fist at Outspark!

[BellaAnimorum]

That alone is enough to make me shake my fist at Outspark!

Lol, by this point, people have desired blowing them up with giant Poyo poyo bombs and infesting them with a torrent of Kennin Weed.

I think (truly hope t.t) that the in-game Meridian R will one day be used for these processes... Outspark is just flexing its economic stronghold over us, and it seems to be working for them.

Like just about everything else with this game, only time will tell.