Agi/Men Skill Speed/Crits

[wardomic]

I've done my share of even more research on Scouts, Archers, and Rangers including there stats and made a realization after getting Excel to compute the Attack, Dodge, Skill Crit, Hit Rate, and(based on the 8 men and 24 agi theory) Skill Speed to 99% accuracy. I can only hope it helps current people of this class who decide to reset there stats, and for future people of this class to decide there build as they level up.

Using the info i gained when a friend reset his stats to pure agi, and info i got when another friend of mine made a farmer scout I have done a number of tests.

Skill Speed = Men/8 + Agi/24
3 Agi = 1 Men

After trying a number of builds with this i have deduced that an easy way to tell if you are close to an increase in Skill Speed is to check your Skill Critical to see if it matches one of the following(I have yet to confirm if a Skill Speed 7 exists)

Skill Speed Skill Crit
.5(starting scout) 1
1 3(After adding agi til you had exactly 21 or 5 Men)
2 7(24 agi and 8 men or equivilant like 12 men and 12 agi)
3 11
4 15(equal to 29 men + original 9 agi or 32 men)
5 19(32 men 24 agi or equivilant)
6 23(catch on yet?)

Basicly your skill speed is roughly equal to your Skill Critical -3 /4 +1(extra crits from items or buffs don't count)

Agi increases Skill Crit slowly, just like it increases Skill Speed slowly, and men is much faster but sacrifices attack power and dodge in the long run. I can only hope this helps people when it comes to planning there builds. If anyone wants to try to disprove me be my guess, but i have done the math, checked it twice, and stand by this.

Another note i'd like to add is my recomended buils for starting scouts or scout farmers

24 agi(add your accessories to get this total) and 8 men, rest pow, that stats will be 33/35, 14/17 dodge(2nd number on both is with 3 payshans) 87 hit rate, 7 Skill Crit, and you will spam windblow much faster.

Anyways i've said my part and will be debating on posting a more detailed analysis on stats and stat builds with this class.

[s2galm]

I've done my share of even more research on Scouts, Archers, and Rangers including there stats and made a realization after getting Excel to compute the Attack, Dodge, Skill Crit, Hit Rate, and(based on the 8 men and 24 agi theory) Skill Speed to 99% accuracy. I can only hope it helps current people of this class who decide to reset there stats, and for future people of this class to decide there build as they level up.

Using the info i gained when a friend reset his stats to pure agi, and info i got when another friend of mine made a farmer scout I have done a number of tests.

Skill Speed = Men/8 + Agi/24
3 Agi = 1 Men

After trying a number of builds with this i have deduced that an easy way to tell if you are close to an increase in Skill Speed is to check your Skill Critical to see if it matches one of the following(I have yet to confirm if a Skill Speed 7 exists)

Skill Speed Skill Crit
.5(starting scout) 1
1 3(After adding agi til you had exactly 21 or 5 Men)
2 7(24 agi and 8 men or equivilant like 12 men and 12 agi)
3 11
4 15(equal to 29 men + original 9 agi or 32 men)
5 19(32 men 24 agi or equivilant)
6 23(catch on yet?)

Basicly your skill speed is roughly equal to your Skill Critical -3 /4 +1(extra crits from items or buffs don't count)

Agi increases Skill Crit slowly, just like it increases Skill Speed slowly, and men is much faster but sacrifices attack power and dodge in the long run. I can only hope this helps people when it comes to planning there builds. If anyone wants to try to disprove me be my guess, but i have done the math, checked it twice, and stand by this.

Another note i'd like to add is my recomended buils for starting scouts or scout farmers

24 agi(add your accessories to get this total) and 8 men, rest pow, that stats will be 33/35, 14/17 dodge(2nd number on both is with 3 payshans) 87 hit rate, 7 Skill Crit, and you will spam windblow much faster.

Anyways i've said my part and will be debating on posting a more detailed analysis on stats and stat builds with this class.

Does That Mean 32 MEN Is Not The Breakpoint?
Meaning That Other SAR's Can Spam Skill Faster?

A Scout With 32 MEN / 24 AGI Spam Skill Faster Than A Scout With 32 MEN Build?

[wardomic]

It has been verified by people before me that SARs with 32 men and 24 or more agi will spam there skills faster than one with only 32 men, in fast the speed continues to increase as you continue to add more agi. Whether or not men will increase your speed with 40 or more is debateable, i can't perform that test myself and personally i see little point in doing a real build with more than 32 men since agi is much better(tho slower) to do to increase your spam speed.

[s2galm]

It has been verified by people before me that SARs with 32 men and 24 or more agi will spam there skills faster than one with only 32 men, in fast the speed continues to increase as you continue to add more agi. Whether or not men will increase your speed with 40 or more is debateable, i can't perform that test myself and personally i see little point in doing a real build with more than 32 men since agi is much better(tho slower) to do to increase your spam speed. I know a lvl 105 archer who has only 8 men and rest agi and as far as we have seen he is able to shoot faster than most other Archers/Rangers and we believe he maybe very close to the maximum speed that can be achieved for this class.

Are You Sure 3 AGI = 1 MEN?

Like 100% Accurate?

[wardomic]

3 agi = 1 men is based on 8 men = 1 skill speed increase and 24 agi = 1 skill speed increase and 24/8 = 3. I have also seen a slight increase in skill speed at the halfway step(4 men or 12 agi). You could ask around, look at more threads. I pulled the 24 agi from another thread here in the archer section and since i have an archer friend with only 8 men rest agi(i was present when he reset his stats and we did tests, not all tests that we have thought of after this but enough to know that agi speeds up skill speed and there are speeds faster than only 32 men).

Edit: also since it appears that skill crits is an indirect way to measure skill speed i checked it out and 8 men and 24 agi both add the same amount to your skill crit rate

[jrgoofy]

This is very interesting I guess I'll have to try it out on my new scout i only have 20 men atm I'm gonna save my stat points for now and decide what to do with them when i have more so i can play around with em

[wardomic]

It is inded interesting. Any SAR who can afford and is willing to use stat resets would benefit from this information. And it's probably worth mentioning that...
24 agi = 13 attack, 13 dodge, 4 skill crit, 1 skill speed
8 men 16 pow = 11 attack, 6 dodge, 4 skill crit, 1 skill speed, 2 hit rate, and more weight capacity

Pow/men builds are really only for a quick start and to boost your weight capacity at the sacrifice of attack and dodge.

[joshiasi]

dodge for range class is overrated and does not make much difference unless u invest a lot on it

[li_yen44]

dodge for range class is overrated and does not make much difference unless u invest a lot on it

yep..to really make a difference, i am talking 2/5 of all your points

[wardomic]

True enough tho it's a matter of opinion. Having alot of agi in the later levels is better than having it all at an early level. It's all about balance when starting from the ground up. But having all that dodge does indeed help when dodging up to 4-5 hits from aggros in the new maps. And it's more than just the dodge when considering agi over men it's your attack power. If 2 archers with the same equips and level shoot at exactly the same speed, but one achieved it through men while the other did it through agi the agi archer will hit harder. Pow/men is for starting out with more weight capacity. If you are satisfied with your spamming speed and don't want anymore dodge just add to pow to hit harder, if you want to spam faster and dodge more add to agi.

[joshiasi]

True enough tho it's a matter of opinion. Having alot of agi in the later levels is better than having it all at an early level. It's all about balance when starting from the ground up. But having all that dodge does indeed help when dodging up to 4-5 hits from aggros in the new maps. And it's more than just the dodge when considering agi over men it's your attack power. If 2 archers with the same equips and level shoot at exactly the same speed, but one achieved it through men while the other did it through agi the agi archer will hit harder. Pow/men is for starting out with more weight capacity. If you are satisfied with your spamming speed and don't want anymore dodge just add to pow to hit harder, if you want to spam faster and dodge more add to agi.

i was once an agi built... but go annoyed with it as i dont carry much pots and with the respawn rate in the new maps because of aoers... i have to run back to the sz before i get mobbed by aggros and i have not even finished killing my mob... so i changed build... went from pow/men and the rest is history... only need 1 ankle bind to kill the mob instead of 2-3

[wardomic]

For pure agi archers/rangers in the new maps it's a good idea to put a warp scroll on your hotkey bar for a quick escape, that is all i can say regarding constant spawns in maps you train in.

Also one person who is lvl 71 decided to try out a pure agi build without completely thinking it all through so i will post all relevant information regarding such a build and add my comments about men.

A pure agi build is only meant for a high level archer/ranger. I would recomend you be at least lvl 96 before trying it. The advantages of an agi build are higher attack compared to pow/men of equal level and spam speed as well as greater dodge. The advantage of Pow/Men is greater weight capacity and hit rate, and attack power if you stop adding to agi or men.

Also when testing out an agi based build for this class tree please remember the initual 9 agi you had with a pow men build and the initial 1 men. Also there is the agi added from accessories and spiritualism.

Without your accessories, spiritualism, and doing a 32 men rest pow build and switching to pure agi, you need to have 96 agi 3 men or 102 agi 1 men in order to have the same skill speed you had before. The key thing is balance.

I have also mentioned before that a slight increase in your skill speed can be measured at or past the halfway make when adding points to agi or men. The easiest way to test is with and without your agi accessories and spiritualism to see if you did/will get a speed increase.

Finally, when picking a build, going for a Pow/Agi/Men build is good and you should plan out your points carefully. I recomend men until you have your desired hit rate then going for agi for the rest of your speed. Your hit rate hits 90 at 15 men, and 95 at 30 men. Remembering that 3 agi = 1 men when it comes to skill speed and criticals make adjustments to suit your skill speed you decide to cap yourself with and go rest pow to increase your attack power and weight capacity.

Remember full agi is not recommended for low-mid level players and should be avoided in favor of pow/men or pow/agi/men

[dan013]

i would like to point out that although i am new to this game, ive played so many otehrs and i have never seen a game where the range class dose not benefit from higher agilty. its one of those common sense things. and normaly agilty dose increase ranged damage more. i may be new to this game.. but it is that way in literaly every other game out there.. so..... id give this post a thought. as for skill spam i dont know about that but im speaking for gernal basic attack speed and power.

[wardomic]

In the long run pure agi or having the bulk of your points in agi will work out. There is a reason why archer accessories give you agi, a reason why spiritualism gives you agi. Every class accessory gives you a certain type of point for a reason.

Squires and up: Pow/Sta More attack power and the ability to tank more with the extra health.

Neos and up: Agi/Pow? I have never seen a rouges class accessory so i am guessing it's pow please correct me if i'm wrong. Agi boosts attack, attack speed, dodge, skill crits, and normal crits?(bugged or no that is the question) and pow allows them to carry more and do more damage

Apps and up: Int/Wis They are SUPPOSED to be the highest damagers, and int gives them more magic, wis gives them more mp to cast more.

Aco and up: Wis/Int Supporting class needs mp to cast many skills, int is used to power up those skills

Disc and up: Pow/Wis Not as strong but needs pow for stronger attacks, wis is because of their mp consumption

Scout and up: Agi/Pow Agi increases everything a SAR needs, Attack, Attack Speed, Skill Speed,
Skill Crits, and Dodge. Pow gives more weight capacity and increases attack more

[whatkindofnameisthis]

The higher skill spam level u are at, the more mana points cost u have to take

Since the pure agi build is spam faster than men/rest pow

The pots that agi hunters should take would be consume faster than others(M/P) during the same period of time

Unfortunately, pure agi builders cannot take a lot of pots with them unless they dont advance their skill level

Glad to share what i am thinking about right now

[jrgoofy]

The higher skill spam level u are at, the more mana points cost u have to take

Since the pure agi build is spam faster than men/rest pow

The pots that agi hunters should take would be consume faster than others(M/P) during the same period of time

Unfortunately, pure agi builders cannot take a lot of pots with them unless they dont advance their skill level

Glad to share what i am thinking about right now

What your saying is not completely correct, your mp consumption gets higher when your damage is lower cause then u need more shots per kill. In alot of cases what your saying is true cause most SAR's use men to increase skill speed wich in turn gives them less attack then someone who would have added that point to pow.

It is inded interesting. Any SAR who can afford and is willing to use stat resets would benefit from this information. And it's probably worth mentioning that...
24 agi = 13 attack, 13 dodge, 4 skill crit, 1 skill speed
8 men 16 pow = 11 attack, 6 dodge, 4 skill crit, 1 skill speed, 2 hit rate, and more weight capacity

Pow/men builds are really only for a quick start and to boost your weight capacity at the sacrifice of attack and dodge.

BUT as u can see from the bolded part in the quote from wardomic's post agi adds more attack then a men/pow combo to a certain extend of course so a full agi SAR uses less pots then a pow/men SAR

for example:
if scout1 adds 1 men for every 2 pow till u have 32 men he gets:
32 men 64 pow = 4 x 11 = 44 attack
and if scout2 add all those points in agi he gets:
96 agi = 4 x 13 = 52 attack

if scout1 adds the next 24 points in pow he gets 16.5 attack lets make that 17 so in total he will have 61 attack
and if scout2 adds the next 24 points in agi he gets 13 attack that would give him a total of 65 attack wich is slighty more then scout1, and if wardomic's tests are accurate scout2 would have a higher skill speed but do more damage so less mp consumption per kill.

[wardomic]

It is true that 24 agi gives you more attack than 16 pow and you should spam at the same speed as an 8 men. Of course the initial 9 agi you start with will throw off tests and proper testing would require quite a number of stat resets, and a 2nd archer to compare pow/men vs agi with exact skill speed and point usage(and same bow). Balance is necessary and proper testing may never happen.

Also the stats i pointed out in the quote jr is extra added on to the initial stats and i use integers when looking at the theoritical builds i have been exploring so points could be off by 1 since decimals are not included in my number. It is also proven how much even a low level fist can increase the amount of damage an archer does in say bangle, up to 50-100 more to the amount of damage per hit so every point that adds to more attack could potentially allow you to kill in 1-2 less hits so less mp consumption but still if you are agi based you have less weight capacity for pots(that's where an aco with meditation who can also be a pot holder comes in handy)

Faster skill speed the less damage you do per hit, so if you were to compare the builds at another 24 point difference the amount of damage the 2 scouts would do would be even closer together.

I'll go ahead and see about giving results(attack only) for the example scouts you you used and go an extra skill speed difference. (does not include the inital stats of scout so this is added on to that and it is only 99% accurate)

32 Men 64 Pow = 43 Attack
32 Men 88 Pow = 59 Attack
32 Men 112 Pow = 75 Attack
All the same skill speed

96 Agi = 49 Attack
120 Agi = 61 Attack
144 Agi = 73 Attack
Slowly increasing skill speed

As you can see up to a point the scout who used Pow/Men will eventually do more damage per hit but will kill slower.
The scout who uses agi for damage and increasing his skill speed will eventually lose out in damage per hit but will still be able to kill much faster thanks to the speed increase.

Balance and caps you put on yourself for men and agi will bring the 2 close together. It's all about what you feel comfortable with. Faster skills means use pots more often, doesn't necessary mean use more mp to kill things. I am glad jr read my point thing carefully and saw how agi over men can add up to more damage at the same speed, even at one skill speed faster it tops the pow/men person.

The one variable i would only use men for is hit rate and the added benefit of some extra weight capacity thanks to the pow for balance.

[jrgoofy]

I know my calculations are a bit of cause i didn't mention the base stats, but the points i was talking about in my post are supposed to be added on top of the base stats. And you also recommended not going full agi from the start, but buying a stat reset at higher lvl if u can afford it.
I would recommend to SAR's who plans on going full agi to start adding pow after you added 120 agi on top of your base stats(129 agi total), that way u have 1 skill speed higher then a SAR with 32 men and full pow and slighty higher attack. If u start adding pow now your attack would go up at the same rate as a pow/men SAR so u will have slighty higher attack, alot more dodge and same skill crit but lower hit rate and lower crit(not that this matters much since SAR's hardly ever use normal attacks) and lower wt. But if u start adding pow at 129 agi by the time u are ranger(lvl 112) you will have quite a bit of pow and still higher attack then a 32men and full pow ranger and alot of archers start adding agi after lvl 96, so the difference in attack will only become greater if u start adding pow after reaching 129 agi.

The more i think about this the more interesting it becomes, of course what i posted here could be a bit off since tests haven't been done for the exact same example i gave here, but it can't be off by much
The builds in this example would look like this:
pow/men SAR:
32 men
9 agi
rest in pow

pow/agi SAR:
1 men
129 agi
rest in pow

[wardomic]

I'll go ahead and calculate those builds for you, off by one or two points in the attack department

32 Men, 9 Agi, Full Pow, lvl 112(using predicted number of stat points for that level)
76 Attack, 12 dodge, 17 skill crits, hit rate 95, skill speed 4.38

1 Men, 129 Agi, Full Pow, lvl 112(ditto)
77 Attack, 48 Dodge, 21 Skill Crits, hit rate 85, Skill speed 5.5

well to be fair i keep saying the word balance and here is some minor modifactions adding agi to men and men to agi to solidify skill speed with no doubts

32 Men, 24 Agi, Full Pow, lvl 112
73 Attack, 17 dodge, 19 skill crits, hit rate 95, skill speed 5

8 Men, 120 Agi, Full Pow, lvl 112
73 Attack, 46 Dodge, 23 Skill Crits, hit rate 87, Skill speed 6

The skill speed points i mentioned are based on it equalling your current agi/24 + current men/8 giving it an actual number. There is no way to really know if it's correct or not because all we have besides agi and men to figure it out is skill criticals which seems to determine skill speed or be determined by skill speed.

[realgundam]

I'm wandering if this works on dust blade as well, as nero mentioned 8men for sins... sorry to ask it here

[wardomic]

I'll say it's possible it works for all classes, but only benificial to SARs, Sins, and Warriors. I would have to say a sin needs to be about lvl 107-12 in order to compare the pure agi vs the 8 men rest agi and i would assume you are mainly refering to Dust Blade. Dust blade already has a bad hit rate even with 8 men if i'm not mistaken(1 more point would add another point to your hit rate and might help, just had to mention that). Even if pure agi sins could obtain the skill speed of 8 men sins do you really want to lower your hit rate even more? Personally i think a sen should have 9-15 men if they plan on using dust blade, and that's assuming the extra hit rate would help dust blade.

It should be mentioned that it is also possible that in order to obtain the maximum skill speed you need to combine agi and men so if any sin lvl 107+ wants to test the pure agi vs 8 men rest agi skill speed and post the results somewhere it would help clarify realgundams question and could help other classes.

[AnimePimp66]

from what i see the pow/men/sta is more balanced build i mean dont forget agi dosnt do anything for your hitrate and in pvp u might hit faster but vs sins u need that hitrate over skill speed and in pve more wt=on map longer lol

[wardomic]

My personal build is 15 men, 30 pow, rest agi until i am satisfied with my skill speed. The 15 men gives me exactly 90 to hit rate, the 30 pow gives me plenty of wt for grinding, and the agi will slowly bring up my skill speed, give me good attack power and dodge(which is noticeable :D), and i will/should crit the same as as any other scout/archer who has my skill speed. I think i found a nice balance, but for anyone who wants more hit rate or weight capacity hit rate works in 3 and for a hit rate of 95 you only need 30 men. Everyone has their own opinions so i hope this thread of mine helps those who read it when building their SAR.

[rebirth.]

how many stat points are we working with here?
like at lv.112 if we do stat reset how many stats will we have?

[wardomic]

I've re done things over and over, i might have too many points somewhere lol.

You get 40 points every 30 levels, from 1 to 15 it's automaticly distributed no matter what class you are. so starting from there...
15 --- 0
45 --- 40
75 --- 80
105 --- 120
106 --- 121
107 --- 122
108 --- 123
109 --- 124
110 --- 127
111 --- 128
112 --- 129 --- That's how many you would get if you re stated at lvl 112

Starting stats as a scout would be...
Pow --- 9
Agi --- 9
Men --- 1
Sta --- 2?
Wis --- 1
Int --- 1

Also add in your pearls or class accessories
Payshan Bracelet --- 2 Agi
Jewel of Accuracy --- 2 Agi / 1 Pow
Seal of Earth(Or whatever it is) --- 3 Agi / 2 Pow

Finally consider your Spiritualism Skill --- 6 Agi

That's a lot of points to throiw around. And it was said in another thread somewhere that the highest skill speed possible is obtained with 56 Men so assuming 24 Agi = 8 men are equal and you want to maximize your skill speed then attack, you would go with something like...
156 Agi 1 Men Rest Pow
144 Agi 8 Men Rest Pow
120 Agi 16 Men Rest Pow
96 Agi 24 Men Rest Pow
72 Agi 32 Men Rest Pow
48 Agi 40 Men Rest Pow
24 Agi 48 Men Rest Pow

For a slower speed and stronger attack just subtract 24 agi or 8 men from somewhere and move it to Pow. I can go on and on but i'e said more than enough.

[rebirth.]

thank you very much
this information helps tons :D
-hugs-