Stun question relating to KQ's

[BridgeBurner]

Last night I was in a King Slime KQ with my newer cleric. No real issues to report, but at the end I was one of the people assigned to heal the tank. However, I noticed that he kept stunning the King Slime, and I said he should stop since at least once the King sought out another target afterwards. In the past, I've seen whole swaths of people die when something like that happened, so I figured it's a generally bad practice.

Now, one individual, who I won't name because I'm not trying to cause him any grief (despite him being a jerk, I would prefer to take the higher road by not singling him out), started mocking me and calling me a noob, and that I didn't know what I was talking about. He said, and I quote, "The only KQ you don't use Stun in is Gold Hill".

As someone who tanks quite often in the Mara KQ with my fighter, I know this is patently false (at least in that one). Every single time there are at least 3-5 people (myself included) who have to tell at least one fighter not to do it. I keep my kick hotkey ready just in case it happens so I can lure Mara or Marlone back to me, but usually a lot of deaths occur before I can their attention again.

So here's my question. Was I wrong in stating that fighters shouldn't use Stun against the King Slime? I have no issue admitting I was in error if people provide solid reasoning (rather than irrational posturing). If that's the case, I'll be sure to not take that stance again while in the quest (though I won't bother apologizing to the one guys since he could've provided decent feedback instead of insults).

Thoughts/opinions?

Thanks much.

Best,
BridgeBurner

[Kholai]

Two things to bear in mind:

Just like regular monsters, boss monsters do not lose aggro thanks to stun. They continue to retain aggro at the same levels as before. The same happens if they stun someone else, they continue to attack them unless the aggro from other sources is high enough.

Unlike regular monsters, boss monsters are much more likely to retarget onto squishies, since they have a greater tendency to readjust their current target based on aggro.

The occassions where a boss loses interest in the fighter stem from, as far as I can tell, the fighter's reduced activity whilst the creature is stunned. If the fighter continues to taunt the boss, then the boss should remain focussed on them even when stun is concluded. If the fighter takes it easy during the stun time, then the boss will lose aggro.

Generally it's a bad habit of newbie tankers to lose aggro after stun, and should be approached with caution at best.

[Forbin]

There is absolutely no correlation between stun and the losing of aggro.

The only time I've ever lost aggro on my fighter was earlier today in Gold Hill. He was NOT stunned. I used kick every time it was available, AND mock. The issue was not a newbie tanker. He went straight to an archer that didn't use nature's protection.

I believe the issue may be with certain bosses, namely the GH boss, is that they do a memory blur on themselves, erasing all records of aggro. This would explain why he goes after an archer every single time I've seen it, and NOT a mage.

The reason? Archer's are constantly doing damage, via poisons. So when the boss memblurs himself, the first aggro on his list is that archer and her poisons.

I never lost aggro even for a split second while tanking my way through King Slime and Mara. The Gold Hill boss is the only incident where my spam-kicking has failed me. I simply can't come to any other conclusion other than the memory blurring theory.

[BridgeBurner]

Kholai, thanks for the excellent response. I appreciate it. :D

Just to be sure I'm reading it right, you think that as long as the main tank is experienced enough, and keeps their Kick (taunt) hotkey ready at a moments notice, that it's okay to use Stun on bosses in a KQ (and is that all of them, or just some)?

I can see it being a little tricky when the boss can stun as well (like Mara) if both the tank and boss get stunned at the same time. There might be a second or so delay where the tank has to re-establish aggro, and if Mara gets too far a way she might do her spin attack when you taunt her and take out people she might've gotten close to in that time. Any thoughts about that?

Another question is whether Kick works on a boss while they're stunned. Say someone stuns the boss, and I kick while it's still in effect, will the aggro still be directed towards me, or does the possibility of a re-target happen the moment stun ends?

Thanks again. I don't consider myself a noob, but it's nice to get intelligent answers to slightly more complicated questions that arise when many different people are giving different answers.

Best,
BridgeBurner

[Kholai]

I believe that the primary reason that it's a bad idea to use stun on Mara and the Grave Robber is not that it's bad to use stun in any situation, but that those two bosses not only can stun, they do stun as soon as the stun on them expires. This results in the tank being stunned and the boss running amok amongst the squishies.


I can certainly say as a cleric that I manage to grab aggro from tankers in regular situations all the time, stun or no stun. Once I've been healing myself to clank for around ten heals, even kicked, mocked, stunned and attacked by the tank, the mob still attacked me after it came out of stun. Aggro is a funny thing, and without actual validation by Outspark staff, it's near impossible to do more than make an educated guess as to its function.

[BridgeBurner]

There is absolutely no correlation between stun and the losing of aggro.

The only time I've ever lost aggro on my fighter was earlier today in Gold Hill. He was NOT stunned. I used kick every time it was available, AND mock. The issue was not a newbie tanker. He went straight to an archer that didn't use nature's protection.

I believe the issue may be with certain bosses, namely the GH boss, is that they do a memory blur on themselves, erasing all records of aggro. This would explain why he goes after an archer every single time I've seen it, and NOT a mage.

The reason? Archer's are constantly doing damage, via poisons. So when the boss memblurs himself, the first aggro on his list is that archer and her poisons.

I never lost aggro even for a split second while tanking my way through King Slime and Mara. The Gold Hill boss is the only incident where my spam-kicking has failed me. I simply can't come to any other conclusion other than the memory blurring theory.

Interesting, thanks to you as well, Forbin. You actually posted at nearly the same time as me, so I didn't see it. ;)

It's quite strange. I've seen many instances where a tank (myself and others included) have been going along fine, and then the boss gets stunned. Once the stun wore off, they immediately started attacking another character (I've never noticed if it was archers specifically or not). I've seen it happen with the King Slime, Mara, and Marlone (I haven't bothered with Gold Hill yet).

Even in the King Slime KQ I was referring to from just last night that's what happened. The tank was doing a fine job, and then a stun occurred. When the King Slime came out of it, he immediately moved away from the fighter and started chasing someone else.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying you've never observed this same behavior before?

Best,
BridgeBurner

[BridgeBurner]

I believe that the primary reason that it's a bad idea to use stun on Mara and the Grave Robber is not that it's bad to use stun in any situation, but that those two bosses not only can stun, they do stun as soon as the stun on them expires. This results in the tank being stunned and the boss running amok amongst the squishies.


I can certainly say as a cleric that I manage to grab aggro from tankers in regular situations all the time, stun or no stun. Once I've been healing myself to clank for around ten heals, even kicked, mocked, stunned and attacked by the tank, the mob still attacked me after it came out of stun. Aggro is a funny thing, and without actual validation by Outspark staff, it's near impossible to do more than make an educated guess as to its function.
Kholai, that's some good advice. Thanks.

This thread did bring another question to mind. Does repeated use of Kick cumulatively increase your aggro level, or does it simply set it to a higher level than everyone else? I've heard and read suggestions saying that both are true and was wondering if there's a definitive answer (I'm guessing the first, but it's only a guess).

Best,
BridgeBurner

[Telhar]

Kholai, thanks for the excellent response. I appreciate it. :D

Just to be sure I'm reading it right, you think that as long as the main tank is experienced enough, and keeps their Kick (taunt) hotkey ready at a moments notice, that it's okay to use Stun on bosses in a KQ (and is that all of them, or just some)?

I can see it being a little tricky when the boss can stun as well (like Mara) if both the tank and boss get stunned at the same time. There might be a second or so delay where the tank has to re-establish aggro, and if Mara gets too far a way she might do her spin attack when you taunt her and take out people she might've gotten close to in that time. Any thoughts about that?

Another question is whether Kick works on a boss while they're stunned. Say someone stuns the boss, and I kick while it's still in effect, will the aggro still be directed towards me, or does the possibility of a re-target happen the moment stun ends?

Thanks again. I don't consider myself a noob, but it's nice to get intelligent answers to slightly more complicated questions that arise when many different people are giving different answers.

Best,
BridgeBurner (aka WhiskeyJack, Aspalar, QuickBen, Mallet)

you're off the track here, losing agro and stun are not related to each other in any way, other than situation where tanker is stunned and unable to kick to maintain agro while others keep DPS'ng and thus passing the tankers hate level. Mara KQ bosses do not use mentioned memory-erasing, if tanker has been kicking on every cooldown there should be no risk of losing agro, be it by stunned boss or stunned tanker. Gold Hill is the first place you can encounter this. Im not sure this memory erasing is quite literate, this seems to be more a change in hate table. Most hated player gets thrown somewhere to bottom and those after him seem to retain some agro/hate. Else a single kick would get hes attention again, but even 3 kicks isn't enough from my experience

afaik its quite safe to stun at KQ, i remember a time when we had lot of fighters, so bosses were almost constantly stunned and it caused no problem, quite opposite. I've not witnessed a connection between player stun and Mara stun myself

[Nerria]

Interesting, thanks to you as well, Forbin. You actually posted at nearly the same time as me, so I didn't see it. ;)

It's quite strange. I've seen many instances where a tank (myself and others included) have been going along fine, and then the boss gets stunned. Once the stun wore off, they immediately started attacking another character (I've never noticed if it was archers specifically or not). I've seen it happen with the King Slime, Mara, and Marlone (I haven't bothered with Gold Hill yet).

Even in the King Slime KQ I was referring to from just last night that's what happened. The tank was doing a fine job, and then a stun occurred. When the King Slime came out of it, he immediately moved away from the fighter and started chasing someone else.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying you've never observed this same behavior before?

Best,
BridgeBurner (aka WhiskeyJack, Aspalar, QuickBen, Mallet)

I'd have to be honest and say in King Slime KQ, I've never seen this behavior. Maybe the tank just wasn't wise enough and didn't know to spam kick. I've stunned him on my newbie Fighter while spamming kick and NEVER lost aggro of him, even while grabbing aggro on all the princes/queens.

Mara is a different story because she stuns you back and then you lose aggro fast. Just as Kholai said, and then things get messy. That's why there should be a secondary tank at the ready though, his finger right on that kick/AoE taunt button.

[Summit]

I believe that the primary reason that it's a bad idea to use stun on Mara and the Grave Robber is not that it's bad to use stun in any situation, but that those two bosses not only can stun, they do stun as soon as the stun on them expires. This results in the tank being stunned and the boss running amok amongst the squishies.


I can certainly say as a cleric that I manage to grab aggro from tankers in regular situations all the time, stun or no stun. Once I've been healing myself to clank for around ten heals, even kicked, mocked, stunned and attacked by the tank, the mob still attacked me after it came out of stun. Aggro is a funny thing, and without actual validation by Outspark staff, it's near impossible to do more than make an educated guess as to its function.

I have yet to see either of those bosses pop a stun off right after being stun (and trying to stun the GH boss is quite useful even if it rarely ever happens no matter what level the fighter may be) and if the tank is losing agro well thats just a problem with either he/she isnt using kick enough or the famous kick doesnt actually add threat (it does happen. more than i'd like to admit that taunts dont do their job). Most bosses with stun pop it off at random not after being stunned or anything else, I've had Marlone stun me three times in a row and not be stunned once, thats a big point factor to my theory its all random of what they choose to use.

[Telhar]

maybe the actions attempted to perform while stunned remain queued, so if the boss attempts to stun while being stunned himself, he will perform it once able, creating the "stun back" effect

[MissusDolly]

I've heard false things about stun. No it doesn't make one really lose aggro of the monster. I've seen it successfully used in Slime and Mara. Never really Gold Hill due to it being near impossible to stun him. Aggro is only really lost due a fighter not continusely kicking/taunting them. And I must agree when a monster loses the fighter's aggro they always go towards archers due to their dps.
-Dolly

[Sylvanus]

I've tanked 20+ Mara KQ's, so I thought I'd throw my thoughts in here.

The most common reason I have heard for not stunning Mara/Marlone was that it would make them use their special attacks more. It didn't really make a lot of sense to me, but I obeyed it, since it made people stop whining and we were killing them both fine anyways. But, I did notice in one of my last few quests that one of the lower level fighters kept on trying to stun Mara and Marlone, despite being told not to. And, a lot of the other fighters (who were properly behind the bosses and who had *not* been dying before) started to drop, and fast, once he started trying to stun them.

There have been a couple of instances where I've lost the aggro from Mara, and once where I lost it from Marlone, and I can say with confidence that these were all because I was still too new at tanking(or maybe a little bit distracted >.<) to spam the taunt skill. So, I would say that the taunt skill probably increases your threat level cumulatively. I'm actually pretty sure that threat level is cumulative, but I'd like to do a few tests sometime, like taking a monster down to about 40% of it's health, then stopping my attacks and letting someone else kill it, and seeing if it switches aggro.

I'm not sure why the GH boss would leave the fighter if the fighter was spamming taunts. Do archers get any new DPS skills around levels 25-30? If so, that particular archer may just be damaging the boss enough that they exceed the threat level of the tanker. After all, tankers use sword and board, which does not do the best damage, and bosses have very high defense. This also makes sense when you consider that the archer's bleed/poison damage remains the same despite the target's defense (I think) so archers would have an advantage over mages and fighters as far as DPS is concerned against a boss.

[Kholai]

Relating purely to your secondary question BridgeBurner, Kick does not set aggro higher than anyone else, I believe it simply adds a set amount to aggro each use, and the same with taunt.

I base this on my previous example. A fighter can pull aggro off me when I'm in healing frenzy, but tier 9 Heal generates enough aggro per use that it would take them spamming taunts at least twice along with attacking in order to get a monster off me once I've been self-healing for awhile. If Kick set aggro at a set amount, it would be impossible, since my aggro will not decrease during heal-frenzy.

[Telhar]

Not only do the melee dps characters have to remain at maximum distance but also the tanker has to stand as far away as possible from Mara/Marlone. If tanker is too close while others are behind the boss and at right distance, they will take damage from aoe special attack. Sounds bit unbelievable, i argued against myself when a player was trying to explain it to me, but i tested it plenty times after that and he was correct. Let a melee skill take you to right distance, using movement keys isn't accurate enough. Again, nothing to do with stun.

GH miner boss dropping agro is a scripted event, happens every time. If archers don't get poison off enough times, and he does have very high resist, someone else will be targeted. Mage lightning spell debuff(with "-" as description) will overwrite archer bleed dot, and may also cause archer not to gain agro. Ive seen him kill several squishes before constantly kicking tanker was able to regain agro. Several dps classes gaining more hate than tanker on every run is just not possible :p

[nademe]

Marlon drive me creazy today
there was 2 cliric , me with rez skill and the other don't have it
the tanker lose the arggo and marlone come to me and kill me
then i take an empty place no one near me and again marlone left the tanker and come to me and i sow the tanker kicking him to save me but no way he just want me to die :(
all i did was healing , and when i want to rez i make a shield on the tanker then rez and back to heal
note : it only happen once in apoline server ( there is many problems for cliric in it , that i didn't have it in other servers )
__________________________________________________ _______________
new to Mara KQ read this (http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191956#post191956)

[Forbin]

Just to update, as others have alluded to, my "theory" about the memory blur situation is indeed false. It's possible that the Gold Hill boss perhaps "randomizes" his hate list or something, which requires 3-4 kicks to regain aggro. I have seen a few situations where the MT did not lose aggro at all, quite a few of them occuring while I was tanking on my fighter.

I witnessed a fighter being attacked after MT lost aggro the other day. I know for a fact that fighter wasn't 2nd on the aggro list, because there were a couple mages and archers that I happen to know, and they certainly do more damage. Oh, I was one of the archers as well, and I'm normally the one the boss comes after, lol. (I have yet to die from that..nature's protection has saved me every time)