WIP: Pure DPS Mage

[Warning]

For a full, updated, edited, and generally more awesome guide, visit this page! (http://ballz.ababa.net/writer/DPSguide.html)

***

I read Haiyastan's first post in his thread and disagreed in some areas, but I don't know if this was discussed in other pages. I hope someone finds it useful. Report any errors you find; I've got someone with a PhD in physics reading it over, but he's probably not too interested - thus, not too attentive. :p Stuff you need to know highlighted in orange.

***

1.0 Goal.

Mages, in my mind, are there for one purpose: to do damage. It always seemed a waste to me to try to fill any other niche; other classes can do them better. Now, if you're soloing, perhaps you'll want some endurance... but mages aren't made to solo, and few people solo past a certain level. Damage can possibly destroy monsters before they get any hits in, as well. This build is not built for SP economy; that's what potions are for!

1.1 Skill levels.

This is easiest. Each spell has several "levels": level one typically being less effective, but having less Spirit Point (i.e. mana) consumption and cooldown time than the higher level spells. You can buy these spells from Skill Trainers.

For mages, there's a benefit to keeping lower level spells. You don't run out of SP as quickly, and can cast the spell more quickly in succession (for Firebolt and Magic Missile). We're not concerned with SP efficiency, so the only possible benefit is the lower cooldown time. For Magic Missile, this is worth it; keeping it a low level ensures you always have a spell to cast. Some people suggest keeping Fireball at level one as well, since it then has a cooldown of five seconds as opposed to the 15 seconds of later spells; this isn't as good, and I'll show why in Spell Order. So simply upgrade everything as far as you can except Magic Missile. Magic Missile will fill in the space between your "big" spells.

1.2 Stat distribution.

Second easiest. There are only two stats of interest to a DPS mage build: SPR and INT. INT gives extra damage; SPR gives extra SP and a higher chance of doing criticals. INT does very little damage per point, but SPR gives very little chance of critical. Which to put points into?

Well, from 1-25, each point of SPR gives you a .2% chance of critical. This translates into one critical every 500 hits! For 25 SPR, you get one critical every 20 hits. Criticals seem to me to do 2x damage; correct me if you think differently. So assuming you do, say, 200 damage, that'd be an extra 200 damage added: 200 damage normally, doubled to 400 = +200.

What about if you put those points into INT? That'd be +25 damage - one damage for each point. Plus a bonus damage of one for every five points = +30 damage per hit total. Over twenty hits, that equals extra 600 damage! Unless you do more than 600 per hit, criticals won't equal that.

Now, to low-leveled monsters I do indeed do more than 600 a hit. To monsters I train on, however, only Firebolt does that much. Firebolt is one spell out of my 12-spell cycle, reducing the chances of a Firebolt critical to 1/240. So, tentatively, I would say the INT is the better place to put your stat points.

1.3 Spell order.

Third easiest. You have four different spells, up until level 49 and excluding Magic Burst. Each has different damage and some different cooltimes. What order do you cast them in for maximum effectiveness?

For the most damage in the least amount of time, simply cast your four "big" spells in succession: Fully upgraded Magic Missile, Firebolt, Lightning Bolt, Ice Bolt, then finally another fully upgraded Magic Missile. This does a lot of damage quickly, but what if the monster is still alive? You'd have to wait for the spells to cool down, though, and in the meantime would have nothing to cast but Level One Magic Missile. I call that the "bridge." It would take four Magic Missiles before Firebolt is ready again, meaning you would do:

Salvo: 653 + 755 + 500 + 446 + 653 = 3007
Bridge: 336*4 = 1344
Together: 4351
Time Taken: 5 + 4 + 1.8*4 = 16.2
DPS: 268.58

So what could be better? As far as I know, the best spell order is Magic Missile > Firebolt > Magic Missile > Lightning Bolt > Magic Missile > Ice Bolt > Magic Missile. There is then a bridge of five magic missiles before the next cast of Fire Bolt.

The calculations used for this progression and others are below. (I've taken the average of the damage I do to Wild Imps for most calculations, since it doesn't matter what monster I use as long as I keep it consistent. Time for spell casting is estimated at one second for ease; if someone has a better estimate post it and I will re-calculate.)

Note: The three "big spells" always go Firebolt, then Lightning Bolt, then Ice Bolt. They're in order of highest damage to lowest, so that the highest damage will be ready to cast first and thus give you more damage in a shorter amount of time if the monster is killed before the progression is finished. Ice Bolt does slow enemies down, but not much and not consistently.

Damages Used:
Magic Missile ------------- 336
Upgraded Magic Missile --- 653
Firebolt ------------------ 755
Lightning Bolt ------------ 500
Ice Bolt ----------------- 446
Level One Firebolt -------- 364

Over one casting of the above order, this progression would end up 4*336(MM) + 755(FB) + 500(LB) + 446(IB) = 3045 damage total, then a 5 magic missile "bridge" while you wait for other spells to recharge. 3045 damage + a (336*5) bridge = 1680 + 3045 = 4725 damage total, over 7 + 9 seconds. Seven seconds for the initial salvo (one second per spell), nine for the bridge. Cooldown starts as soon as a spell is cast, so after the first Magic Missile you have six seconds spell-casting while Firebolt is cooling, then 9 seconds of magic missile. That's 4725 damage over 16 seconds, which is 295 DPS.

But if we're concerned with doing the best DPS over a larger amount of time, we need to test for another progression. For two salvos of the first progression listed, we'd end up with 2354 (the second spell progression) + 4351 = 6705 in 16.2 + 4 seconds = 6705 in 20.2 seconds. 331 DPS.

For the second - the best - add in another salvo, and it's 4725 + 2709 = 7434 damage for 16 + 6 = 22 seconds. 7434 in 22 is 339 DPS.

So far, the second order is the best. But are there any better out there? I calculated the benefit from spreading out your high-powered spells more for more powerful targets, and got: mm/mm/fb/mm/mm/lb/mm/mm/ib/mm. 7*336(MM) + 755(FB) + 500(LB) + 446(IB), with 3 mm bridge (336*3). Then another 5*336(MM) + 755(FB) + 500(LB) + 446(IB). (5x mm because the first two are counted in the bridge.) 8442 damage total. However, the spell progression would take 1+1.8+1+1+1.8+1+1+1.8+1+1 = 12.4 seconds, then 1.8*3 = 5.4 = 17.8. Then another 1+1+1.8+1+1+1.8+1+1 = 9.6 + 17.8 = 8442 damage in 27.4 seconds. 308 damage per sec over two progressions. Not very good at all.

Level One Fire Bolt. I have not tested this extensively to find the best order for this level of spell, so if you think you have a better one let me know.

Orders used:

L1FB/MM/LB/MM/IB/MM/L1FB/MM /MM/MM/MM/ L1FB/MM/LB/MM/IB/MM/L1FB/MM

I like this because it's easily repeatable. Another possible order would go:

L1FB/LB/MM/IB/MM/L1FB/MM /MM/MM/MM/ L1FB /MM/MM/ LB/MM/IB/L1FB/MM /MM/MM/MM/ LV1FB /MM/MM

The last 3MM/FB/2MM included just to see how it would work. For calculations I'd stop after the second progression.

Numbers:
#1: 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 +336+336+336+ 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 = 7044
Time taken: 8 + 5.4 + 8 = 21.4
DPS: 329

Not bad, but not as good.

#2: 364+500+336+446+336+364+336 +336+336+336+ 364 +336+336+ 500+336+446+364+336 = 6708
Time taken: 7 + 5.4 + 2 + 1.8 + 5 = 21.2
DPS: 316

I was expecting this one to be better, actually! Shows what I know.

Someone in another thread suggested the following:


MM1, FB1, MM1, LB, MM1, FB1, MM1, IB, MM1, FB1, MM1 --> (repeat)
So if I read this aright, it'd go:

MM1, FB1, MM1, LB, MM1, FB1, MM1, IB, MM1, FB1, MM1, MM1, MM1, FB1, MM1, LB, MM1, FB1, MM1, IB, MM1, FB1, MM1

Damage:

336+ 364+ 336+ 500+ 336+ 364+ 336+ 446+ 336+ 364+ 336+ 336 + 336+ 364+ 336+ 500+ 336+ 364+ 336+ 446+ 336+ 364+ 336 = 8108
Time taken: 11 + 3.6 + 10 = 24.6 seconds

329.6 DPS. Almost the same as my combo. Not bad, again, but not as good as our current champions!

So overall, I find upgrading Fire Bolt to be a far better deal than staying with the level one. Why is this, besides just the numbers? Well, consider the difference between Fire Bolt and Magic Missile. It's very small; you're essentially using Fire Bolt as another Magic Missile every once in a while, with a bit more damage. Unfortunately, to do this, you lose the incredible damage an upgraded Fire Bolt can do.

Next up, I want to finally test an upgraded Magic Missile, and see if perhaps a combo of Level One and Full Fire Bolts is any good.

[Haiyastan]

Hey it's a pretty nice guide and I agree with you on many things besides magic missile. A mage starts partying when he reaches lvl 25. Until lvl 25 a mage should solo and he will lvl a lot more quicker. If you raise other skills besides magic missile then you are doomed to have to wait for cooldowns to finish up and you will waste craploads of SP (you stop worrying about your SP after lvl 23). YOU NEED MAGIC MISSILE. It is crucial it will help you level up quicker. All you simply do is upgrade it till like lvl 15 and then leave the rest to other skills. Cooldown is essential and add some damage to it too. With magic missile having cooldown maxed you can easily kill monsters without using all those complicated combos and also magic missile cinsumes puny amounts of SP so you will never ran out. Yes I agree after lvl 15 (when you reach lvl 17 you get the empowerement point) you should start raising other skills but before that make sure that your magic missile cooldown is maxed. Try it out you will see

[Alhanthir]

I like where this is going, i reccomend you warning to do a few empty posts so you can continue your analysis if you run out of space in the first one.

[Tela007]

Writer ish spammy. :o

Nice guide, though. :)

[Hirochihachi]

So simply upgrade everything as far as you can except Magic Missile.

As far as I know, the best progression goes: Magic Missile > Firebolt > Magic Missile > Lightning Bolt > Magic Missile > Ice Bolt > Magic Missile. There is then a bridge of five magic missiles before the next cast of Fire Bolt

I only disagree there. You can place Magic Missile in more than one shortcut box, so you can click over to the most upgraded Magic Missile, place it in the first (or at least the button you press for the first spell in a combo) slot, and then click back over to your quick-cooldown level 1 Magic Missile and place it in a convenient spot. This enables you to change the spell order to:

Highest powered Magic Missile, Ice Bolt (that slowdown always helps in the beginning, partying or soloing), Lightning Bolt, level 1 Magic Missile (the high powered cooldown will have finished by then), Firebolt, and then spam the level 1 Magic Missile until Ice and Lightning cooldowns run out, or the monster is dead :3

Granted, that's only /my/ preferred order, and you can switch around the three 'big' spells as needed ^_^ Just thought I'd let you know, that upgraded MM is fantastic to have to start combos out.

Other than that, GREAT guide ^^

[Warning]

Hey it's a pretty nice guide and I agree with you on many things besides magic missile. A mage starts partying when he reaches lvl 25. Until lvl 25 a mage should solo and he will lvl a lot more quicker. If you raise other skills besides magic missile then you are doomed to have to wait for cooldowns to finish up and you will waste craploads of SP (you stop worrying about your SP after lvl 23). YOU NEED MAGIC MISSILE. It is crucial it will help you level up quicker. All you simply do is upgrade it till like lvl 15 and then leave the rest to other skills. Cooldown is essential and add some damage to it too. With magic missile having cooldown maxed you can easily kill monsters without using all those complicated combos and also magic missile cinsumes puny amounts of SP so you will never ran out. Yes I agree after lvl 15 (when you reach lvl 17 you get the empowerement point) you should start raising other skills but before that make sure that your magic missile cooldown is maxed. Try it out you will see
Thanks a lot! I read the rest of your thread and found out we don't disagree at all :)... except, it seems, on Magic Missile. XD

I had never considered raising Magic Missile because of the cooldown increase, but now that I realize you can bring that down with empowerment it doesn't seem like such a bad idea. How long is an upgraded MM's cooldown with cooldown empower points maxed?


I like where this is going, i reccomend you warning to do a few empty posts so you can continue your analysis if you run out of space in the first one.
Good idea, will do. :)


Writer ish spammy.

Nice guide, though.
Thanks! :) I'm not very good at math, so I was afraid I'd sign on and find dozens of posts saying how dumb this guide was. :D


I only disagree there. You can place Magic Missile in more than one shortcut box, so you can click over to the most upgraded Magic Missile, place it in the first (or at least the button you press for the first spell in a combo) slot, and then click back over to your quick-cooldown level 1 Magic Missile and place it in a convenient spot. This enables you to change the spell order to:

Highest powered Magic Missile, Ice Bolt (that slowdown always helps in the beginning, partying or soloing), Lightning Bolt, level 1 Magic Missile (the high powered cooldown will have finished by then), Firebolt, and then spam the level 1 Magic Missile until Ice and Lightning cooldowns run out, or the monster is dead :3

Granted, that's only /my/ preferred order, and you can switch around the three 'big' spells as needed ^_^ Just thought I'd let you know, that upgraded MM is fantastic to have to start combos out.

Other than that, GREAT guide ^^
Oh man, this is getting hard! Ideally, I would be able to take every combination of spell, spell level, and empower point available and run them through a damage-calculator for the best damage for each amount of time... but I'm not skilled enough to do that in C++, so I'm having to do it by hand. I'll have to stick with what seems best and choose from among those.

Thanks for the advice though! I'm signing on to Fiesta right now to see how much damage your combo will do. I'll have to use the damages listed on the spells instead of actual damage, since I don't have a high level Magic Missile, but I think that will work anyway.

[Hirochihachi]

I'm signing on to Fiesta right now to see how much damage your combo will do.

O:!! Sweet! I've always wondered how different combos fare against each other :D I'll be watching for the update ^^

[Haiyastan]

ok I know that magic missile goes up to 1.3 sec I wrote so on my post
Here this is pasted from my post

Now for skills you need a skill that you can use as many times as possible. You have exactly 5.3 sec until a monster reaches you from a 12m distance. Therefore it would be the best to use magic misssle. In the begining the cooldown time is 1.8 Therefore 5.3/1.8 = 2.944 therefore you can say that you can barely hit monster 3 times (considering that it is 12m away and not closer) I know it sucks in the begining. Now if you max out the cooldown time in the begining levels then by level 11 you will have magic missle cool down time to the 1.3 sec range. Now as you can see 5.3/1.3= 4.07 And the other higher levels of magic missle will fall until 2.8 sec. Anyways as I was saying you now can hit a monster with magic missle 4 times and trust me it's enough to kill monsters with yeallow names on them. Then you simply max out maximum damage and you will have one mean rapid fire magic missle. Later on if you want to you can decrease the SP consumption but I wouldn't recomend it. Cause all it does is simply take away usefull skill point that can decrease cool down or increase the attack.

As you see maxed cooldown on magic missile kicks ***

[Warning]

Updated. Now going to buy some spells. :)


ok I know that magic missile goes up to 1.3 sec I wrote so on my post
Here this is pasted from my post

Now for skills you need a skill that you can use as many times as possible. You have exactly 5.3 sec until a monster reaches you from a 12m distance. Therefore it would be the best to use magic misssle. In the begining the cooldown time is 1.8 Therefore 5.3/1.8 = 2.944 therefore you can say that you can barely hit monster 3 times (considering that it is 12m away and not closer) I know it sucks in the begining. Now if you max out the cooldown time in the begining levels then by level 11 you will have magic missle cool down time to the 1.3 sec range. Now as you can see 5.3/1.3= 4.07 And the other higher levels of magic missle will fall until 2.8 sec. Anyways as I was saying you now can hit a monster with magic missle 4 times and trust me it's enough to kill monsters with yeallow names on them. Then you simply max out maximum damage and you will have one mean rapid fire magic missle. Later on if you want to you can decrease the SP consumption but I wouldn't recomend it. Cause all it does is simply take away usefull skill point that can decrease cool down or increase the attack.

As you see maxed cooldown on magic missile kicks ***
I see! Very useful. The thing is, with a cooldown of 2.8 you'd need to do 64% more damage than MM1 to make up for the fewer castings you can get out (2.8 divided by 1.8 = increased cooldown by 64%). With the values listed on the spell - 12.5 and 421 - this is easily worth it, but as I show above it's not so simple. I will buy the upgraded Magic Missile and see.

Spell Order is still relatively straightforward. Unfortunately, Skill Points are not; there are so many possible combinations! :(

[Hirochihachi]

:D Good luck with your experiments!

[Finalplayer_Ryu]

I disagree with many points in this guide, but i´m not going to explain it again... just read my posts in the "Ultime Mage leveling guide and stat distribution", hopefully many will see that INT is the greates waste and that only END and SPR is the best thing for a mage.

[Warning]

I disagree with many points in this guide, but i´m not going to explain it again... just read my posts in the "Ultime Mage leveling guide and stat distribution", hopefully many will see that INT is the greates waste and that only END and SPR is the best thing for a mage.
So sehr ich liebe meine österreichischen Freunde, ich habe nicht einverstanden. :D END and SPR might indeed make an effective mage, but I only care about damage-per-second for this guide. I'll read your posts in Hai's thread, though.

[Haiyastan]

I disagree with many points in this guide, but i´m not going to explain it again... just read my posts in the "Ultime Mage leveling guide and stat distribution", hopefully many will see that INT is the greates waste and that only END and SPR is the best thing for a mage.

Ok once again Ruy first u were saying ur a programer and you do all that crap. I wrote a program for ya and I proved ya wrong and you still don't give up. Seriously man write a code and send it to me and then I will see what ur doing
Otherwise stop saying things like SPR is better

[Hirochihachi]

SPR might be his preferred build, and it's just as workable as any other mage build, but as Warning reminded him, this is a damage per second guide.

[Finalplayer_Ryu]

Ok once again Ruy first u were saying ur a programer and you do all that crap.

Don´t have time for things like that, because i´m very busy. And you don´t need a program to calculate such things... i mean 10000 hits and you have a chance of 10% for a critical... why should i write a program for this? The answer is very simple: 10000 * 10% = 1000 criticals :P and that means

With 25 SPR: (1000 * 2 + 9000) * Damage = Damage you deal
PURE INT: (500 * 2 +9500) * (Damage + 30) = Damage you deal

EDIT: ok... here a little diagram for my example above:
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9205/thetruthlr7.th.png (http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9205/thetruthlr7.png)
x: Damage you deal with one hit
y: Damage you deal with 10000 hits

Very sad that some people don´t know how to calculate things easy...
And to say it once more... there is a important difference between dealing damage and the HP-loss of an Enemy, because 30 more Damage means about 10-15 more HP-loss (can be a little bit higher or lower, because of the Enemys Magical Defence).

EDIT:

So sehr ich liebe meine österreichischen Freunde, ich habe nicht einverstanden. :D END and SPR might indeed make an effective mage, but I only care about damage-per-second for this guide. I'll read your posts in Hai's thread, though.

Yeah, you are right... your thread is about dps, i oversaw this^^, but you will see that the dps is going higher with 25 SPR if you at a high level, i think this would be about lvl40-45+

[Warning]

Yeah, you are right... your thread is about dps, i oversaw this^^, but you will see that the dps is going higher with 25 SPR if you at a high level, i think this would be about lvl40-45+
You are correct. Well, in a way. In my original post I did say that you would have to do 600 damage or more to make SPR worthwhile, but only one of my spells does 600 damage or more. (I am level 48.) The question here is - does damage go up with level? It does to lower level monsters, but to the monsters you fight I think the damage you do is always about the same. That is, now I do ~2000 to slimes, but to the monsters I actually want to do damage to, like Trumpies or other high-level monsters, I still only do about 200.

//Irrelevant calculations out of curiosity:
/*
This brings up another question to my mind. A fully upgraded Magic Missile might do 300 or more, making it so that in my spell progression of 17 spells (the magic missile/big spell/magic missile combo with a 4-mm bridge because of cooldown), 11 of them do 300 or more. 64% of my spells would do worthwhile criticals, meaning 64% * 5% criticals = 3% of hits do worthwhile critical damage. Using our previous example, 1 out of 33 hits do 2x damage. Using the points on INT, it would be 30*33 = 990 extra damage. On SPR, it would be only +600 at most (I don't think any of my spells do more than that).
*/


And to say it once more... there is a important difference between dealing damage and the HP-loss of an Enemy, because 30 more Damage means about 10-15 more HP-loss (can be a little bit higher or lower, because of the Enemys Magical Defence).
Does this make a difference, though?

[Finalplayer_Ryu]

You are correct. Well, in a way. In my original post I did say that you would have to do 600 damage or more to make SPR worthwhile, but only one of my spells does 600 damage or more. (I am level 48.)
Stop right here... you are right that your spell (i think it is Fire Bolt 7, 508-635 Damage) is the only one with 600 damage, but you forgot something very important: It is ADDITIONAL DAMAGE, you forgot the base damage you are dealing, in my case it would be a base damage from 502-596 + 379-474 = 881-1070, when we look at the diagram we will see that is already above that point, where 25 SPR is better than FULL INT. My previous thought that is about lvl40-45+ was only a prediction, so now i would say that 25 SPR is better at lvl 35+.


Does this make a difference, though?
Yeah... it does, because this means that INT has a lower effect than a critical hit.

EDIT: Hmmm i think of making a own Mage Guide for Stats that hopefully more stronger mages will appear...

[Warning]

Stop right here... you are right that your spell (i think it is Fire Bolt 7, 508-635 Damage) is the only one with 600 damage, but you forgot something very important: It is ADDITIONAL DAMAGE, you forgot the base damage you are dealing, in my case it would be a base damage from 502-596 + 379-474 = 881-1070, when we look at the diagram we will see that is already above that point, where 25 SPR is better than FULL INT. My previous thought that is about lvl40-45+ was only a prediction, so now i would say that 25 SPR is better at lvl 35+.
Not quite! It's true that people often forget that it is additional damage, but the numbers I was using is actual damage. I recorded the damages I did in-game and averaged them. In reality, magical defense makes it so that even Fire Bolt, in some cases, does less than 600.


Yeah... it does, because this means that INT has a lower effect than a critical hit.
How so?

[Warning]

Sorry for the double post... that guy was right, I should have made blank posts! I was intending to edit out the quotes and just write in my previous posts, but I don't want to destroy the discussion now. So here's the guide, part two. I'm going to HTML it up and put it online soon.

***

Hirochihachi's Spell Order. This spell order is the one listed above as the best. The damage used for each spell in the next three calculations:

Magic Missile Level One ------- 12.5
Firebolt ----------------------- 618.5
Lightning Bolt ----------------- 248
Ice Bolt ---------------------- 229.5
Magic Missile, Fully Upgraded -- 421

So for Hirochihachi's, this would come out to: 421(MM8)+229.5(IB)+248(LB)+12.5(MM1)+618.5(FB)+12. 5(MM1). Then a bridge of five Magic Missiles before Ice Bolt is recharged: 12.5*5. Then 229.5(IB)+248(LB)+12.5(MM1)+618.5(FB)+12.5(MM1). 2725.5 damage total. Time taken: Seven seconds for first progression, nine seconds for bridge, five seconds for second progression. 21 seconds total. 2725.5/21 = 129.8 damage per second.

For mine, this would come out to: 12.5+618.5+12.5+248+12.5+229.5+12.5. Then a five Magic Missile bridge: 12.5*5. Then 618.5+12.5+248+12.5+229.5+12.5. Total damage: 2342 damage. Time taken: Seven seconds for first progression, nine seconds for bridge, six for second. 22 seconds. 2342/22 = 106.5 DPS.

Ouch! So upgraded Magic Missile wins this round. But I am suspicious; in reality, Level One Magic Missile seemed a lot closer in damage to the more powerful spells than the damage listed claims. So to see if that makes a difference, I tested out the spell progression I found worst: the three "big" spells in a row.

618.5 + 248 + 229.5 + 12.5 + (12.5 * 6) + 618.5 + 248 + 229.5 + 12.5 = 2292 damage. This is over 4 + 10.8 + 4 seconds, with a .2 second wait for FB to cooldown. 18.8 seconds, 2292 damage = 121.9 DPS! This is better than my progression, but when tested out against Imps mine was far more effective. Why is this? Consider the proportions of Level One MM vs. FB:

Actual: 336 vs 755
Reported: 12.5 vs 618.5

In reality, Magic Missile does a bit less than half of Firebolt's damage. But if you take the damages claimed on the spell itself, it's less than 1/40th! This is because each spell has your base Magical Damage added to it. It's not proportional to the damage each spell does - it's simply +x. So consider having a spell that does one damage, and a spell that does two. One is twice as effective as the other! But then add 200 to each one. All of a sudden, the difference is negligible - only 1/202th of a difference.

Test with actual values
Damages Used:
Magic Missile ----------- 336
Firebolt ---------------- 755
Lightning Bolt ---------- 500
Ice Bolt ---------------- 446
Upgraded Magic Missile -- 653

653 + 446 + 500 + 336 + 755 + 336 + (336 * 5) + 446 + 500 + 336 + 755 + 336 = 7079

7079dmg/22sec = 322 DPS

So my progression isn't so bad at all. :) Seeing how huge the damage for an upgraded Magic Missile is, though, I wonder if it can't be combined in there somehow. So next up, I think, will be combos - upgraded Magic Missile, full Fire Bolt, level one of each - and then finally we'll move on to Skill Points.

[Finalplayer_Ryu]

Not quite! It's true that people often forget that it is additional damage, but the numbers I was using is actual damage. I recorded the damages I did in-game and averaged them. In reality, magical defense makes it so that even Fire Bolt, in some cases, does less than 600.

Okay... i was used to it that all people are talking about damage and not actual damage. But it needs more then some numbers from one mage to decide which one is better... Anyway... i still believe in my signatures truth... so INT is the past and END the future^^

EDIT: If you need help with your page... just ask me... i have made several websites and have a very good knowledge of HTML, PHP and JavaScript.

[Setokira]

hmm interesting thread, finally, i belive that alot any end for a mage is pointless, end is good for soloing and when a mage sets to like lvl35 a mage will mostlikely parr=ty MUCH MORE often then he/she solos. A party would rather have a strogner int/spr bui;t mage than and spr/end mage. Personally im going 25spr the rest int. If i enchant my armor it will make up for the lack of def.

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/invader-zim-10789.jpg

[Warning]

Okay... i was used to it that all people are talking about damage and not actual damage. But it needs more then some numbers from one mage to decide which one is better... Anyway... i still believe in my signatures truth... so INT is the past and END the future^^
Maybe in a straight fight, your mage would win! I just like to do big damage. =)


EDIT: If you need help with your page... just ask me... i have made several websites and have a very good knowledge of HTML, PHP and JavaScript.
Thanks! I might need help... I can't remember too much HTML or ANY JavaScript. :(

Guide is updated. Sorry, Hirochi, you've been dethroned! :D Also added a new spell progression for most-damage-smallest-time.

[redemption_]

put some skill points into Empowerment if u want extra dmg.

u can substitute increased dmg with Empowerment points, but u can't substitute an increase of HP/SP with anything but plain stats.

[Warning]

put some skill points into Empowerment if u want extra dmg.

u can substitute increased dmg with Empowerment points, but u can't substitute an increase of HP/SP with anything but plain stats.


But if you put it in INT and damage empower, you do even more!

[Tela007]

Ryu, you don't have a clue. You're spouting off nonsense that's been proven wrong mathematically countless times.

Free-Stat INT ignores mob defense.


That's all you need to know to realize that INT is better than SPR for raw damage.

[lordalden]

Well well, Writer. It's me, Valence, Palaxius, etc. While for the most part I can agree with where you're going here, I can say it's only more economical to not upgrade Fire Bolt OR Magic Missle. Lightning and Ice Bolt are concievable ideas, as they have the same cooldown time, and their increase in damage/SP cost ratio are not that drastic.

But considering the cruddy payoff for Fire Bolt or Magic Missle being upgraded(believe me, I can only see it being a useful upgrade in much higher levels, the lower ones it's an utter waste as the damage increase is pathetic) only costs you more money than it may save you in killing monsters, I disagree there.

Also, I disagree that 25 INT is better than 25 SPR. Why? Because one in twenty hits is vastly inaccurate. You're forgetting weapon crit % bonuses, and even then, you will crit more than your %'s payoffs would belie. Let's say you're using a wand, with 25 SPR, which between the two, if the Wand is not Green(i.e. higher crit %), that'd be 8%. One in 12.5 hits, but even then, I see a crit in one out of every 5 attacks or so. So over the course of 20 hits, I'd be hitting 800 more damage total(using my averages) if my base damage was 200 per spell, thereby outweighing SPR's usefullness in antagonism against INT. Secondly, the higher SP means that Stones go a lot farther, making it more cost effective in the long run.

[lordalden]

Ryu, you don't have a clue. You're spouting off nonsense that's been proven wrong mathematically countless times.

Free-Stat INT ignores mob defense.


That's all you need to know to realize that INT is better than SPR for raw damage.

That may be, but it's also a pretty solid fact that Damage Increases are less effective in higher levels because those modifiers do nothing without good weapons, and a base GGK/ZK aren't going to enhance those modifiers to your stat-based damage by an enormous amount.

As for the damage over time issue, even critting every 14.29 hits(if you have a 7% crit, meaning you are using 25 SPR, and a Staff, with no crit earring in the least case scenario), you'd still do very impressive damage over time, and be able to substantiate that by being able to cast for a longer period of time. Although in a good party where you can Lifetap and be summarily healed in return, that's not an issue.

However, with Crit Enhancing Equips, you're going to go a lot farther in damage over time than raw INT will bring you in the long run. So here's the idea to consider: INT for early, higher damage. Or SPR for the late run massive damage fest?

[Warning]

Well well, Writer. It's me, Valence, Palaxius, etc.
Where'd you go, man?!


While for the most part I can agree with where you're going here, I can say it's only more economical to not upgrade Fire Bolt OR Magic Missle. Lightning and Ice Bolt are concievable ideas, as they have the same cooldown time, and their increase in damage/SP cost ratio are not that drastic.

But considering the cruddy payoff for Fire Bolt or Magic Missle being upgraded(believe me, I can only see it being a useful upgrade in much higher levels, the lower ones it's an utter waste as the damage increase is pathetic) only costs you more money than it may save you in killing monsters, I disagree there.
I agree that upgrading Magic Missile is not very useful, but after level two or three upgrading Fire Bolt is much, much better. I'm not very good at math, so my calculations may be in error, but I have yet to find a level one Fire Bolt combo that is as good.


Also, I disagree that 25 INT is better than 25 SPR. Why? Because one in twenty hits is vastly inaccurate. You're forgetting weapon crit % bonuses, and even then, you will crit more than your %'s payoffs would belie. Let's say you're using a wand, with 25 SPR, which between the two, if the Wand is not Green(i.e. higher crit %), that'd be 8%. One in 12.5 hits, but even then, I see a crit in one out of every 5 attacks or so. So over the course of 20 hits, I'd be hitting 800 more damage total(using my averages) if my base damage was 200 per spell, thereby outweighing SPR's usefullness in antagonism against INT.
I'm aware that there is weapon percentages as well, but you get those whether or not you increase SPR. For your example, you're forgetting that it's only the 5% that is extra. More, if you have more INT your criticals from weapon % will do more damage!


Secondly, the higher SP means that Stones go a lot farther, making it more cost effective in the long run.
True. I actually have 14 SPR, and it's nice to see all those thousands of MP. :) But for purposes of this guide, cost-effectiveness is not being considered. I want to NUKE!

[lordalden]

Where'd you go, man?!


I agree that upgrading Magic Missile is not very useful, but after level two or three upgrading Fire Bolt is much, much better. I'm not very good at math, so my calculations may be in error, but I have yet to find a level one Fire Bolt combo that is as good.


I'm aware that there is weapon percentages as well, but you get those whether or not you increase SPR. For your example, you're forgetting that it's only the 5% that is extra. More, if you have more INT your criticals from weapon % will do more damage!


True. I actually have 14 SPR, and it's nice to see all those thousands of MP. :) But for purposes of this guide, cost-effectiveness is not being considered. I want to NUKE!

I went to Bijou, as I am mad out on funds. As for after level 2 or 3, look at the extra damage in comparison to the SP cost. I'm sure that cost-effectiveness is not a part of this guide, but it's an important aspect to Fiesta, and the pay-off in damage is far unbalanced to the use of SP.

Also take note that you can cast about 3 Fire Bolts at level 1, rather than the 1 of a higher level(if I remember right) in the same time span of initially casting that level 2+. That means that the Fire Bolt would have to be immensely more powerful for the real term of "DOT Build" to be accurate, and sadly, it's not. If you want to Nuke, then that's fine, but in regards to more Nuking Ability over time, Fire Bolt over 1 does not succeed there.

Also, you're forgetting that the EXTRA from SPR is making you Crit more often. The power isn't considered because the frequency is much greater. If you go Pure INT, you will Crit for SURE less than half the time of a Crit based build, or even just a 25 SPR build, so really, the extra damage means nothing if it doesn't come into effect half as often.

Not to mention the fact that the INT gained is not %ly based, meaning it's a static gain. %'s are greater than statics in higher instances, meaning the SPR still wins late end. My points stand.

[Warning]

I went to Bijou, as I am mad out on funds. As for after level 2 or 3, look at the extra damage in comparison to the SP cost. I'm sure that cost-effectiveness is not a part of this guide, but it's an important aspect to Fiesta, and the pay-off in damage is far unbalanced to the use of SP.
That's what SP stones are for. :)


Also take note that you can cast about 3 Fire Bolts at level 1, rather than the 1 of a higher level(if I remember right) in the same time span of initially casting that level 2+. That means that the Fire Bolt would have to be immensely more powerful for the real term of "DOT Build" to be accurate, and sadly, it's not. If you want to Nuke, then that's fine, but in regards to more Nuking Ability over time, Fire Bolt over 1 does not succeed there.
It's not a straight cooldown-to-power ratio we're looking at here. If it were the only spell you had to cast, your point would stand; but it's not. You already have a spell to cast constantly, and Fire Bolt 01 doesn't do enough damage to make it significantly better. Add in the extreme amount of damage later Fire Bolts do, and the Fire Bolt 01 build does significantly less DPS over any amount of time. I have outlined the calculations done in my original post; if you find fault with them please tell me.


Also, you're forgetting that the EXTRA from SPR is making you Crit more often. The power isn't considered because the frequency is much greater. If you go Pure INT, you will Crit for SURE less than half the time of a Crit based build, or even just a 25 SPR build, so really, the extra damage means nothing if it doesn't come into effect half as often.
It doesn't make a difference except when considering larger damages. For instance:

Crit % with 25 SPR and wand: 8%
3 crits every 33 hits. (Better than reality, but for ease of calculation...)
Crit % with wand: 3%
1 crit every 33 hits.

Extra damage (damage from critical or INT bonus) for the INT build: 30 damage per hit * 33 hits = 990 damage plus normal hit (x+30) * 2
Extra damage for 25 SPR build: 6x

For...
100 damage: INT 1250 vs SPR 600
200: 1450 vs SPR 1200
300: 1650 vs SPR 1800

So you're right in that my original post estimated the damage crits become better at as too high; but as a level 50 mage I still don't do > 200 with more than one or two spells on the things I train on. Maybe this will change at higher levels, though, and if so I'll edit then.

[Haiyastan]

Yahooooooooo At Last You Guys Agreed That Int Owns Spr
Thank You Very Much

[Finalplayer_Ryu]

Thanks! I might need help... I can't remember too much HTML or ANY JavaScript. :(
Then send me a message if you need help.


Ryu, you don't have a clue. You're spouting off nonsense that's been proven wrong mathematically countless times.

Free-Stat INT ignores mob defense.
OK... i am spouting off nonsense... sure... lol. Question for you, who is the source of "Free-Stat INT ignores mob defense."? If you don´t have a trustfully one, then you are saying nonsense. And most important, you aren´t a mage... so don´t discuss about something you don´t know!


Yahooooooooo At Last You Guys Agreed That Int Owns Spr
Thank You Very Much
No... we are still discussing about it =P


And again, my proof that SPR is much better than INT:

With 25 SPR: (1000 * 2 + 9000) * Damage = Damage you deal
PURE INT: (500 * 2 +9500) * (Damage + 30) = Damage you deal

EDIT: ok... here a little diagram for my example above:
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9205/thetruthlr7.th.png (http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9205/thetruthlr7.png)
x: Damage you deal with one hit
y: Damage you deal with 10000 hits

[Allnighte]

you are forgetting magic defense.

we had a similar discussion about bows and crossbows in the archer forum, and you can't use the raw numbers you see listed on the skills as true numbers.

in our calculations, xbows always came out on top in terms of damage when we used the raw numbers listed on the bow. but when you take into account defense (and the level helpers), you get numbers for what really happens in the game.

check out this post:
http://www.outspark.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167870&postcount=63

i think you guys should do something similar. pick a mob of each color (or 2) and cast each skill a few times to get a good number for the damage average. then change the level of the skill and try it again, and just compare it over time.

the game's level and defense mechanics make damage calculations outside of the game hard to do, unfortunately. also, another wrench in the gears is the supposed "INT stats go through armor" thing, which would mean going all INT may be better. but i don't know if anyone has proved that it's true. hope this helps

[Desolate_Raven]

25 spr > full int

Think about it in really simple terms. When you start to get to a high level, 25 int (30 damage) doesn't really count for a whole lot... your spells, staves/wands, rings, and pure int stats minus 25 spr all account for hundreds of damage already. What's another 30 damage? Pretty pointless, as it turns out. However, if you invest those points into spr instead, a 5% critical bonus turns out to count for MASSIVE damage by comparison.

[lordalden]

Writer, Writer...the bonus damage from INT is STATIC. As you get stronger naturally(I.e. levelling up), let's say you've got 25 INT, which equals 30 Damage. Let's go on to say that we're comparing with 25 SPR. I won't break down %'s, but just go with the "rarely or semi-frequently" case.


Say your attacks deal 200 damage.

That's 230 per spell with the INT, 460 per crit, crits happening rarely.

200 damage per spell with SPR, 400 per crit, crits happening fairly frequently.

Now let's say you do 400 damage.

430 with the INT. 860 with rare crits.

400 with SPR, 800 with frequent crits.

The scaling doesn't change. INT in the long run remains a static, stand alone number. It may bypass the defense, but in terms of relative damage in the long run, it's going to fail by a large margin, simply because the natural power you gain from levelling will make your Crits that much more devastating. I agree, as previously mentioned, that INT is good early on, because it gives you a huge boost to damage in the earlier levels, but later on, because it's a static number, it drops in usefulness by a large margin. The same is true about STR Fighters. You see plenty of them complaining about having gotten STR points, and it's for the same reasons.

[Warning]

i think you guys should do something similar. pick a mob of each color (or 2) and cast each skill a few times to get a good number for the damage average. then change the level of the skill and try it again, and just compare it over time.
Um, Allenighte, read my original post! That's what I did.


the game's level and defense mechanics make damage calculations outside of the game hard to do, unfortunately. also, another wrench in the gears is the supposed "INT stats go through armor" thing, which would mean going all INT may be better. but i don't know if anyone has proved that it's true. hope this helps
That would be interesting if so. I could save up a few skill points and see. Anyone else have any information?


Writer, Writer...the bonus damage from INT is STATIC. As you get stronger naturally(I.e. levelling up), let's say you've got 25 INT, which equals 30 Damage. Let's go on to say that we're comparing with 25 SPR. I won't break down %'s, but just go with the "rarely or semi-frequently" case.
Why don't people read my posts? :( In the one before this, I actually did break down the percents and agreed with you! Well, mostly. The part I'm not sure about is how much damage I'll do at later levels. Damage done seems static to me - to the monsters I train on, I think I still do the same damage I did when I was training at level 5! I need magic missile to be doing ~300 damage to make SPR a valid choice.

[lordalden]

Um, Allenighte, read my original post! That's what I did.


That would be interesting if so. I could save up a few skill points and see. Anyone else have any information?


Why don't people read my posts? :( In the one before this, I actually did break down the percents and agreed with you! Well, mostly. The part I'm not sure about is how much damage I'll do at later levels. Damage done seems static to me - to the monsters I train on, I think I still do the same damage I did when I was training at level 5! I need magic missile to be doing ~300 damage to make SPR a valid choice.

I know, but I am implying that it can be solidly checked. Make two nub mages, one SPR, one INT. Have them use the same equipments, and do the test at level 5. Over the course of 5 attacks to a monster, check the average damage between the two. The INT one should only be 6 higher. Redo the test a second time by re-raising to 5, using the same equips/monster, and do it again, and you'll see that the INT is static. Meaning at higher levels, it's entirely useless as the majority of your damage will be based over time due to the strength of enemies you'll face, making SPR a more keen DPS build, due to the lack of oomph INT gives you over time to stronger foes.

Edit: I did read your earlier post, however by sticking to the fact that you'll stay INT doesn't mean you are willing to give it a go, or at least, that's my impression, so forgive me if I'm wrong here.

Edit 2: Haiyastan, INT is junk at higher levels. Proportional Growth>Static.

[Warning]

Meaning at higher levels, it's entirely useless as the majority of your damage will be based over time due to the strength of enemies you'll face, making SPR a more keen DPS build, due to the lack of oomph INT gives you over time to stronger foes.

Edit: I did read your earlier post, however by sticking to the fact that you'll stay INT doesn't mean you are willing to give it a go, or at least, that's my impression, so forgive me if I'm wrong here.
I am reluctant to give up my hard-won but evidently not-quite-perfect mathematicalitions, but for the good of the DPS I must. :D The reason I'm sticking with INT, though, is for the same reason you think SPR will be better - the enemies we'll face at later levels. Even as my spell damage goes up, their magic defense goes up. Will I ever be doing enough damage to make SPR worthwhile?

I'll make a noob mage and raise him to 5-9 or somewhere around there and see if my average damage is indeed going up, and fast enough to make doing 300+ damage with my worst spell a possibility within 79 levels. I am relying also on the advent of restats - if SPR only becomes better by level 80 I'm not sure it's worth it to wait all that time with an inferior build when you can just restat once you need to.

***

Guide updated. It's now online on its own webpage! See here (http://ballz.ababa.net/writer/DPSguide.html).

[lordalden]

I am reluctant to give up my hard-won but evidently not-quite-perfect mathematicalitions, but for the good of the DPS I must. :D The reason I'm sticking with INT, though, is for the same reason you think SPR will be better - the enemies we'll face at later levels. Even as my spell damage goes up, their magic defense goes up. Will I ever be doing enough damage to make SPR worthwhile?

I'll make a noob mage and raise him to 5-9 or somewhere around there and see if my average damage is indeed going up, and fast enough to make doing 300+ damage with my worst spell a possibility within 79 levels. I am relying also on the advent of restats - if SPR only becomes better by level 80 I'm not sure it's worth it to wait all that time with an inferior build when you can just restat once you need to.

***

Guide updated. It's now online on its own webpage! See here (http://ballz.ababa.net/writer/DPSguide.html).

You're still stubborn, I see. But very well. But remember, you can't raise just one. You need to raise one of each to accurately test that the INT is static.

Edit: After viewing the guide you posted, guess what? =) Fire Bolt 1 DOES do more damage over time as you can typically cast it 3 times in the time of an upgraded Fire Bolt. However, for the purposes of here and now nuking, higher Fire Bolt is better. I checked the cast times through Fiestafan's wiki.

[Warning]

You're still stubborn, I see. But very well. But remember, you can't raise just one. You need to raise one of each to accurately test that the INT is static.
Oh no, I know that int is static. I want to know if damage is static or mostly static. I should remember, probably, but as far as I can remember 200 damage was never a huge amount of damage, and I'm still doing 200.

[lordalden]

Oh no, I know that int is static. I want to know if damage is static or mostly static. I should remember, probably, but as far as I can remember 200 damage was never a huge amount of damage, and I'm still doing 200.

The stat gain throughout levels(not the skill points of course) is static I do believe, but the damage may alter a bit.

[Tela007]

I'd like you SPR gurus to let us all into the secret. What level do you start doing 300+ damage on good exp mobs? Writer has said that he still does around 200 damage, at level 48.

You need to do like 600 damage for the crits to outweigh the static gain from INT. When does this happen? You don't know, because it hasn't happened yet. Maybe at 79, maybe at 100. But right now, you're simply wrong. INT is simply more bang for your buck. You're ignoring the facts if you keep arguing this point.

[lordalden]

I'd like you SPR gurus to let us all into the secret. What level do you start doing 300+ damage on good exp mobs? Writer has said that he still does around 200 damage, at level 48.

You need to do like 600 damage for the crits to outweigh the static gain from INT. When does this happen? You don't know, because it hasn't happened yet. Maybe at 79, maybe at 100. But right now, you're simply wrong. INT is simply more bang for your buck. You're ignoring the facts if you keep arguing this point.

Then tell me. At level 40(8 levels under Writer), I'll have 7% Crit from my Stats alone, and with a Green Staff(common to have at that level), that puts my Crit up to 11%. It's not simply the scaling of damage, m'boy. It's the continued scaling as a whole. So you don't NEED to do so much upfront damage for the growth of damage over time to increase further on a SPR build, or were you forgetting that little fact?

I didn't throw it out because it should be common knowledge, but let's face some facts here. You may only gain, from 40 INT, 49 static damage, whereas at that point my Crit% has gained 2% from my stat bonuses only, and by that time, I've surely upgraded to a Green/Boss Type Weapon. The gap in critting will by far begin to outweigh.

For example. Let's use a Green Wand, Pure INT user, vs a Green Staff, Pure SPR user, and exclude the damage differences, putting them on the same level. This is to simply put, give the Crit build a less likely chance to go over, but it will happen anyway.

6% vs. 11%. Damage dealt as 200 per strike, base, 49 added from INT for the wand user.

100/11=9.09, meaning 1 in about 9 hits will crit(although how often you do crit will realistically waver on a higher end).

100/6=16.67, 1 in every 16-17 hits. Let's do the test over 160 hits, as DPS means Damage over Time. We'll say the Wand user hits his Crit for SURE every 16th hit.

39,480 Damage from the wand user, without Crits. For every 16th hit, we add another 249, to make the grand total(for 10 crits total) to come to: 41,970 damage.

The Staff user does 32,000 through his 160 hits, but has 17.78 crits, but we'll round up to keep things as evenly weighed in the calculations, adding 200 damage per Crit. 18 crits plus the 32k base damage over time is a grand total of: 35,600 damage.

Now, that means that a Wand Pure INT user wins. Of course. Let's put them on even fields. They're both using wands, with the same damage based stats before. 6 vs 13 now.

100/13=7.69, favoring the 8 by rounding to a favorable number(as was done with the staff.

32k base damage+the 200 damage bonus from the crits over 20 hits(which is 4k damage) is 36,000 damage.

Yet again, INT user wins, as previously stated. These are using pure statistic factors, but not the realistic applications, bear in mind. This is a number based game, but how often those numbers hits is what counts most. Now, let's compare a Pure Int Staff User vs. a Pure SPR Wand. 4 vs 13.

The INT would already win before the crits are considered statistically. However, let's keep scaling things.

[lordalden]

I'd like you SPR gurus to let us all into the secret. What level do you start doing 300+ damage on good exp mobs? Writer has said that he still does around 200 damage, at level 48.

You need to do like 600 damage for the crits to outweigh the static gain from INT. When does this happen? You don't know, because it hasn't happened yet. Maybe at 79, maybe at 100. But right now, you're simply wrong. INT is simply more bang for your buck. You're ignoring the facts if you keep arguing this point.

Now let's go for 400 damage dealt, over 160 attacks. We'll use the 6 vs 11 again.

Int before crits added: 71,840(75,840 with crits)

Spr before Crits added: 64,000(With crits: 71,200 with crits)

Here we can see that SPR is indeed catching up, and this is the worst case scenario for a SPR based fighter. Let's go even pat on weapons. 6 vs. 13.

Int before Crits: 71,840(75,840 with)

Spr before Crits: 64,000(72,000 with)

INT is keeping a solid lead that is practically in the same range, but the damage gap from before was lessened tremendously.

Now then. Let's move onto the idea at hand. "You may be able to do that damage at 79 but not now, bla bla bla". If you're trying to perfect a build that will do well, then you're not looking at the big picture, which you're supposed to do. What good is proposing the idea of "It'll only be good at 79, etc" if you never reach it? What you said was essentially "If you're going to take this game half serious and quit out halfway, go INT".

But if you are going to go all the way, again, I'm going to propose the idea of going with a scaling strength, rather than one that only moves at a snail's pace. The amount of data available for higher levels is limited because there's a cap of the real max level at the moment, so you're making a judgement based only on half the presently accountable data. Do not forget that.

Similarly, you're forgetting some things. That INT only gives you damage, SPR gives you great DoT, AND longer casting periods, which means you can train for longer without needing to resupply. You're overlooking integral ideas in this train of thought.

[Warning]

Excellent calculations there alden. I hadn't even considered changing weapon... been ignoring it almost completely, as a matter of fact! I need to do a wand vs. staff section in my guide.

As you've shown, INT outweighs SPR even with 400 damage (although with 25 SPR I found the damage to be evened at around 300). Now, you have a very good point in that the gap is decreasing, and eventually it will be closed - but when is that? Will I have to go through levels 1-99 with an inferior build? I do intend to go all the way, but if I get a level every two days I'm still months away from hitting cap! I just hope they sell a restat. I will include a notice pointing out that the damage may be evened out at later levels.

[lordalden]

Excellent calculations there alden. I hadn't even considered changing weapon... been ignoring it almost completely, as a matter of fact! I need to do a wand vs. staff section in my guide.

As you've shown, INT outweighs SPR even with 400 damage (although with 25 SPR I found the damage to be evened at around 300). Now, you have a very good point in that the gap is decreasing, and eventually it will be closed - but when is that? Will I have to go through levels 1-99 with an inferior build? I do intend to go all the way, but if I get a level every two days I'm still months away from hitting cap! I just hope they sell a restat. I will include a notice pointing out that the damage may be evened out at later levels.

Yeah, if I have to, I break out the big guns(did this stuff for MapleStory, etc). But it's not inferior, it's like Archers in terms of their strength. Archers ARE weak at early levels, but shine later. SPR is slower by a slight margin earlier compared to INT, but that gap closes LATER on. And the main question to ask yourself is surely: Do I want to be stronger later when I need it, or be weaker at that point?

I'm not saying INT is bad, it's great for levelling earlier, yes. But later, when you do need extra strength(yes, I'm meaning this post 2nd advancement), would it be better to be weaker or stronger?

As for the Wand vs. Staff comparison, the main thing to remember is the Gap in Aim, and Crit%, the damage is not nearly as relevant, surprisingly enough. The Aim is important, because as you go to places like Ancient Elven Woods, etc, you miss more, so Staves can be more reliable in that sense, moreso than a Wand, even taking into consideration you may be slinging Tier 2 Aim scrolls. The Crit is important because of how much higher it scales your damage dealt over time. The upfront damage would be meaningless seeing as it'll be applicable to both Mages, and the only time it'd matter, is a Wand Pure INT vs. a Staff Pure SPR at times before Aim is a crucial thing to have.

Another Edit: I just forgot about something in the whole idea of things. Pure SPR spamming Level 1 Fire Bolt/Magic Missle is actually going to be an interesting idea to math out, because you'd hit more frequently, so the crits would come more frequently than on your nuker build. I'll work it out in a sec.

[Warning]

As for the Wand vs. Staff comparison, the main thing to remember is the Gap in Aim, and Crit%, the damage is not nearly as relevant, surprisingly enough. The Aim is important, because as you go to places like Ancient Elven Woods, etc, you miss more, so Staves can be more reliable in that sense, moreso than a Wand, even taking into consideration you may be slinging Tier 2 Aim scrolls. The Crit is important because of how much higher it scales your damage dealt over time. The upfront damage would be meaningless seeing as it'll be applicable to both Mages, and the only time it'd matter, is a Wand Pure INT vs. a Staff Pure SPR at times before Aim is a crucial thing to have.
I'm not sure how the aim mechanics work, unfortunately. It's not a percent, just a number - what does that even mean?!


Another Edit: I just forgot about something in the whole idea of things. Pure SPR spamming Level 1 Fire Bolt/Magic Missle is actually going to be an interesting idea to math out, because you'd hit more frequently, so the crits would come more frequently than on your nuker build. I'll work it out in a sec.
As I'm already using level one Magic Missile adding a level one Fire Bolt to the mix wouldn't significantly increase the amount of spells I'm casting. Don't forget the incredible damage of a Fire Bolt 08 crit, either. :)

[lordalden]

I'm not sure how the aim mechanics work, unfortunately. It's not a percent, just a number - what does that even mean?!


As I'm already using level one Magic Missile adding a level one Fire Bolt to the mix wouldn't significantly increase the amount of spells I'm casting. Don't forget the incredible damage of a Fire Bolt 08 crit, either. :)

I meant, that the only way the Pure Damage on the Staff/Wand would matter without Aim as a consideration, is at a time when you can equally well hit an enemy with both weapons for the purposes of consideration. Otherwise, your misses will be factored into your damage overtime, weighing towards the Staff's higher hit rate.

I can't discredit the incredible damage of a Fire Bolt 08 Crit, you're right. But I can discredit that it happens with any kind of forseeable frequency on an INT build. In the time you get one crit with that, as an average estimate, I'd have critted tons of Fire Bolt 01's and probably surpassed that Fire Bolt's damage. I should play that one out.

[DemonEyeKyo]

cough noob cough

[lordalden]

cough noob cough

Stay off of this debate if you're not going to contribute any worthwhile data or helpful information, please. Have a nice day, flame elsewhere please.

[DemonEyeKyo]

if u start using empower pts on low lvl spell.. u gonna be weak latr
dont use empower pts till lvl 49 only thing ill say just discover the other by urself

[Warning]

I meant, that the only way the Pure Damage on the Staff/Wand would matter without Aim as a consideration, is at a time when you can equally well hit an enemy with both weapons for the purposes of consideration. Otherwise, your misses will be factored into your damage overtime, weighing towards the Staff's higher hit rate.
I guess I'll have to go shoot at the same monster over and over again with a staff, then wand.


I can't discredit the incredible damage of a Fire Bolt 08 Crit, you're right. But I can discredit that it happens with any kind of forseeable frequency on an INT build. In the time you get one crit with that, as an average estimate, I'd have critted tons of Fire Bolt 01's and probably surpassed that Fire Bolt's damage. I should play that one out.
Not meaning INT vs SPR, just Fire Bolt 01 vs 08. I don't think using 01 will get you many more crits than 08, since there's really nowhere you can insert 01 that MM01 won't already fill. At most you save .8 seconds from no MM01 cooldown, and that's if you haven't empowered MM cooldown.

[Warning]

if u start using empower pts on low lvl spell.. u gonna be weak latr
dont use empower pts till lvl 49 only thing ill say just discover the other by urself
Only if your spell lineup never includes any spells from below 49. I can't see myself using only Magic Blast, Ice Blast, etc. The lower spells always have a place.

Maybe it will be different at level 99.

[lordalden]

I guess I'll have to go shoot at the same monster over and over again with a staff, then wand.


Not meaning INT vs SPR, just Fire Bolt 01 vs 08. I don't think using 01 will get you many more crits than 08, since there's really nowhere you can insert 01 that MM01 won't already fill. At most you save .8 seconds from no MM01 cooldown, and that's if you haven't empowered MM cooldown.

Oh, the heck if it won't, lol. My test will involve pure brunt, and I tested it a bit in the last Mara KQ. I could fire off 3 Fire Bolt 01's between MM 01's, before a 2nd cast of Ice Bolt, and still have about a second left. Even when I used the Fire Bolt 01 first, I still managed 3 before the 2nd Ice Bolt, so the testing wouldn't be interrupted in a perfect comparison.

So in lieu of that, I can test it as a "3 Fire Bolt 01 in the time of a Fire Bolt 08 over a given period of time, and consider the Crit % differences, and only use wands to lessen me pulling my hair out because Writer is a pain in my #$%@$ ". Lemme go to Eld and get skill info...jerk...

[Warning]

Oh, the heck if it won't, lol. My test will involve pure brunt, and I tested it a bit in the last Mara KQ. I could fire off 3 Fire Bolt 01's between MM 01's, before a 2nd cast of Ice Bolt, and still have about a second left. Even when I used the Fire Bolt 01 first, I still managed 3 before the 2nd Ice Bolt, so the testing wouldn't be interrupted in a perfect comparison.

So in lieu of that, I can test it as a "3 Fire Bolt 01 in the time of a Fire Bolt 08 over a given period of time, and consider the Crit % differences, and only use wands to lessen me pulling my hair out because Writer is a pain in my #$%@$ ". Lemme go to Eld and get skill info...jerk...
Rofl, now I feel bad! :p

Going through the spell orders, I find you're right - in 22 seconds, it's 15 vs 18 spells. Not as drastic as a 3:1 ratio, but 3 extra spells nontheless. Will the extra critical chance make up for the loss of damage? I'll crunch it myself after I'm done grinding here, if you don't.

[lordalden]

Rofl, now I feel bad! :p

Going through the spell orders, I find you're right - in 22 seconds, it's 15 vs 18 spells. Not as drastic as a 3:1 ratio, but 3 extra spells nontheless. Will the extra critical chance make up for the loss of damage? I'll crunch it myself after I'm done grinding here, if you don't.

I will, but lemme fix my mac and cheese, dang it. It's my lifeblood.

[lordalden]

Rofl, now I feel bad! :p

Going through the spell orders, I find you're right - in 22 seconds, it's 15 vs 18 spells. Not as drastic as a 3:1 ratio, but 3 extra spells nontheless. Will the extra critical chance make up for the loss of damage? I'll crunch it myself after I'm done grinding here, if you don't.

Alright, here we go, and we're only doing Fire Bolt's against one another, so in a perfected scenario, it would still be a 3:1 ratio. So let's do this.

Say Fire Bolt 01 does 200 damage. In theory Fire Bolt 08 will hit 775 therein(already taking into account the initial damage of Fire Bolt 01, and subtracting that from 08).

Now, let's take the time and consider that Fire Bolt 08 will hit at LEAST one Crit, so we'll take 1 out of 17 hits, which is the 6% crit rate, represented by a Green Wand, and no SPR or Enhancing Earrings. 255 seconds of testing time. 51 attacks for the Fire Bolt 01, 17 for Fire Bolt 08. The SPR user will every 9 hits, so 51/9=5.67, rounded up to 6 for the purposes of accuracy. 6 crits vs 1.

INT: Now then, 775 x 17=13,175(before crit, after is: 13,563)

SPR: 200 x 51=10,200(Before crit, after is: 11,400)

INT-Nuker using Fire Bolt 08 wins before applying an INT bonus(as I had suspected) BUT! Let's also consider the factor of SP/Training Cost or Savings Made.

Level 1 is 8 SP without Empowers, over 51 attacks makes for a use of 408 SP. Level 8 without Empowers is 45, over 17 attacks making for a use of 765.

Between the two, the damage isn't too variant, but the SP cost gap is rather enormous. If we were to assume every 20 points of SP cost 1c( a fair assumption ), then 357 SP/20=18.75c, rounded up to 19c saved per 4.25 minutes. Over the course of 3 hours of grinding, 180/4.25 minutes is 42 rounded down x 19c = 800c. Not bad savings for a grind session, and the damage difference isn't that vast.

Edit: Now go die, Writer. T_T You make my brain hurt.

[Warning]

Alright, here we go, and we're only doing Fire Bolt's against one another, so in a perfected scenario, it would still be a 3:1 ratio. So let's do this.

Say Fire Bolt 01 does 200 damage. In theory Fire Bolt 08 will hit 775 therein(already taking into account the initial damage of Fire Bolt 01, and subtracting that from 08).

Now, let's take the time and consider that Fire Bolt 08 will hit at LEAST one Crit, so we'll take 1 out of 17 hits, which is the 6% crit rate, represented by a Green Wand, and no SPR or Enhancing Earrings. 255 seconds of testing time. 51 attacks for the Fire Bolt 01, 17 for Fire Bolt 08. The SPR user will every 9 hits, so 51/9=5.67, rounded up to 6 for the purposes of accuracy. 6 crits vs 1.

INT: Now then, 775 x 17=13,175(before crit, after is: 13,563)

SPR: 200 x 51=10,200(Before crit, after is: 11,400)

INT-Nuker using Fire Bolt 08 wins before applying an INT bonus(as I had suspected) BUT! Let's also consider the factor of SP/Training Cost or Savings Made.
Aah, beat me to it! Your calculations are always so much more clear. :P If I give you credit can I use some for my guide? It's okay if you wanna keep 'em for yourself, though. :)


Level 1 is 8 SP without Empowers, over 51 attacks makes for a use of 408 SP. Level 8 without Empowers is 45, over 17 attacks making for a use of 765.

Between the two, the damage isn't too variant, but the SP cost gap is rather enormous. If we were to assume every 20 points of SP cost 1c( a fair assumption ), then 357 SP/20=18.75c, rounded up to 19c saved per 4.25 minutes. Over the course of 3 hours of grinding, 180/4.25 minutes is 42 rounded down x 19c = 800c. Not bad savings for a grind session, and the damage difference isn't that vast.

Edit: Now go die, Writer. T_T You make my brain hurt.
Christ, no wonder I only have 14 silver at level 49. T_T And you return the favor, Palaxius Maximus! I've had to do more thinking today than when I first made the damn guide. :P

My numbers included just so I can save them if needed.


Fire Bolt 01: 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 +336+336+336+ 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 = 7044
Time taken: 8 + 5.4 + 8 = 21.4 seconds
DPS: 329

Fire Bolt 08: 336+755+336+500+336+446+336+336+336+336+336+336+75 5+336+500+336+446+336 = 7434 damage
Time taken: 16 + 6 = 22 seconds
DPS: 339

Add in two MM crits for the first: 360.56 DPS. Two Fire Bolt crits, and 365 DPS. Only one MM crit for the second, 368.45 DPS. A Fire Bolt crit, 372.2 DPS! And considering that 2:1 crit ratio is more than the 01 order would actually get, I find the 08 Fireball worth it.

[lordalden]

Fire Bolt 01: 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 +336+336+336+ 364+336+500+336+446+336+364+336 = 7044
Time taken: 8 + 5.4 + 8 = 21.4 seconds
DPS: 329

Fire Bolt 08: 336+755+336+500+336+446+336+336+336+336+336+336+75 5+336+500+336+446+336 = 7434 damage
Time taken: 16 + 6 = 22 seconds
DPS: 339

Add in two MM crits for the first: 360.56 DPS. Two Fire Bolt crits, and 365 DPS. Only one MM crit for the second, 368.45 DPS. A Fire Bolt crit, 372.2 DPS! And considering that 2:1 crit ratio is more than the 01 order would actually get...

You're forgetting that you're only doing it from a Combo Based situation. Check my post ^ there. It has pure Bolt against Pure Bolt under a controlled circumstance.

Edit: It gives a better idea of the individual strength of them. But this too only scales with increasing Crit %'s.

[Warning]

You're forgetting that you're only doing it from a Combo Based situation. Check my post ^ there. It has pure Bolt against Pure Bolt under a controlled circumstance.

Edit: It gives a better idea of the individual strength of them. But this too only scales with increasing Crit %'s.
I see that now. Edited. :)

[lordalden]

I see that now. Edited. :)

Use them to your hearts content. Oh, and if you need anything else, let me know.

[Warning]

I'm almost done with every section of my guide except the hardest: skill points. I might need a lot of help there. You're extremely good at destroying my hard-won work (XD), so I'll drop you a PM when that section's done and you can see if you spot any problems, maybe?

Either way, thanks for the criticism so far. Now let me rest my aching gray muscle!

[lordalden]

I'm almost done with every section of my guide except the hardest: skill points. I might need a lot of help there. You're extremely good at destroying my hard-won work (XD), so I'll drop you a PM when that section's done and you can see if you spot any problems, maybe?

Either way, thanks for the criticism so far. Now let me rest my aching gray muscle!

Hey, it wasn't easy for me either. @_@

[Desolate_Raven]

I've noticed something about how damage works out in game. From what I can tell, most of you think that damage works out in some variation of the equation:
Damage Dealt = Dmg - Def
According to this equation, if I deal 200 damage with 0 int, then I'd do (roughly) 230 damage with 25 int.

However, damage does not work like this. If I double my dmg, I double the damage I deal, I've tested this with bash on my cleric - (base damage 300, bash does 300 additional damage -- if I hit a monster for 50 or 150 or whatever normally, a bash hits roughly twice that) as well as def scrolls on my noobie mage. I would therefore submit that the real equation resembles this:
Damage Dealt = Dmg/Def

Therefore, suppose my dmg (on the characteristics menu) is 600, but I only hit monsters for 200 hp. If I raise my damage by 30 (630 total) I only hit monsters for 210... hardly worth the stat points, that could be contributing to a 5% critical chance increase.

[Warning]

I've noticed something about how damage works out in game. From what I can tell, most of you think that damage works out in some variation of the equation:
Damage Dealt = Dmg - Def
According to this equation, if I deal 200 damage with 0 int, then I'd do (roughly) 230 damage with 25 int.

However, damage does not work like this. If I double my dmg, I double the damage I deal, I've tested this with bash on my cleric - (base damage 300, bash does 300 additional damage -- if I hit a monster for 50 or 150 or whatever normally, a bash hits roughly twice that) as well as def scrolls on my noobie mage. I would therefore submit that the real equation resembles this:
Damage Dealt = Dmg/Def

Therefore, suppose my dmg (on the characteristics menu) is 600, but I only hit monsters for 200 hp. If I raise my damage by 30 (630 total) I only hit monsters for 210... hardly worth the stat points, that could be contributing to a 5% critical chance increase.
Interesting. I have some concentration scrolls that might help with this, and saving a few stat points might as well. We shall see!

[lordalden]

I've noticed something about how damage works out in game. From what I can tell, most of you think that damage works out in some variation of the equation:
Damage Dealt = Dmg - Def
According to this equation, if I deal 200 damage with 0 int, then I'd do (roughly) 230 damage with 25 int.

However, damage does not work like this. If I double my dmg, I double the damage I deal, I've tested this with bash on my cleric - (base damage 300, bash does 300 additional damage -- if I hit a monster for 50 or 150 or whatever normally, a bash hits roughly twice that) as well as def scrolls on my noobie mage. I would therefore submit that the real equation resembles this:
Damage Dealt = Dmg/Def

Therefore, suppose my dmg (on the characteristics menu) is 600, but I only hit monsters for 200 hp. If I raise my damage by 30 (630 total) I only hit monsters for 210... hardly worth the stat points, that could be contributing to a 5% critical chance increase.

I might check this out. I've known it was true, but substantiating evidence like this makes it more interesting to study. God help me, Writer, you've brought someone to make me pull my hair out again.

[sorsorday]

Now let's go for 400 damage dealt, over 160 attacks. We'll use the 6 vs 11 again.

Int before crits added: 71,840(75,840 with crits)

Spr before Crits added: 64,000(With crits: 71,200 with crits)

Here we can see that SPR is indeed catching up, and this is the worst case scenario for a SPR based fighter. Let's go even pat on weapons. 6 vs. 13.

Int before Crits: 71,840(75,840 with)

Spr before Crits: 64,000(72,000 with)

INT is keeping a solid lead that is practically in the same range, but the damage gap from before was lessened tremendously.

Now then. Let's move onto the idea at hand. "You may be able to do that damage at 79 but not now, bla bla bla". If you're trying to perfect a build that will do well, then you're not looking at the big picture, which you're supposed to do. What good is proposing the idea of "It'll only be good at 79, etc" if you never reach it? What you said was essentially "If you're going to take this game half serious and quit out halfway, go INT".

But if you are going to go all the way, again, I'm going to propose the idea of going with a scaling strength, rather than one that only moves at a snail's pace. The amount of data available for higher levels is limited because there's a cap of the real max level at the moment, so you're making a judgement based only on half the presently accountable data. Do not forget that.

Similarly, you're forgetting some things. That INT only gives you damage, SPR gives you great DoT, AND longer casting periods, which means you can train for longer without needing to resupply. You're overlooking integral ideas in this train of thought.

Have you heard of game theory? There is a kind of game that, for every move you do the move that gives you the most points, then you will get the most points for the whole game. I forget all the premises of the game, but putting stat point to achieve the most damage totally is this kind of game.
For first 25 points, a mage need to do 600 damage to make int and spr break even because: 600*0.002(the crit rate from spr)=1.2(the damage from int)
A mage within 20 lv cannot do 600 damage on regular attack, int win.
I remember spr gives 0.001 rate from 26-75(free stat), so:
1200*0.001=1.2, that means after 25 spr, the mage need to do 1200 damage on monster to have same damage as int. Can a mage do 1200 damage at around lv 79? I doubt it.
After 75points on spr, each spr gives 0.0005 chance of crit rate. That will make the damage needed to be 2400.
I think it's clear that if we only look at the point of view of damage, full int > full spr.
And the best way to achieve most damage is using the strategy i mention at the beginning about the game theory: do the move that gives the most value at each move.
it is, add int until you can do 600 damage, then add spr until you have 25 of it. Then add int again until 1200 damages...etc

Talk about full int vs full spr again.
Full spr have higher DoT? I disagree, or the difference is not significant. Full int does more damage per skill and so use less skill to kill a monster. So if they both kill 100 monsters, I don't see how full spr can save more sp.
Spr gives mdef. Yes, that's the only reason you would want to add spr over int imo.

[Warning]

Thanks for reviving this - I have updates but forgot to post about them!

Anyway, my guide is progressing nicely. I stop updating briefly because I was waiting for Magic Blast, but I got that and found out some extremely interesting stuff. Tomorrow I think I will have it ready. :)

sorsorday, interesting point. I figured out something similar - do the skill with the lowest cooldown first, always, then repeat it every time you can. This only starts to fail when you actually exclude a spell because of this, and then simply place that spell in place of a low-cooldown spell that does less. I have some examples lined up. :)

On SPR vs INT, I now do enough damage to the monsters I used to train on to make spr worth it. Unfortunately, I have now moved on to new ones! We'll see if damage ever catches up to monsters. :)

[lordalden]

Have you heard of game theory? There is a kind of game that, for every move you do the move that gives you the most points, then you will get the most points for the whole game. I forget all the premises of the game, but putting stat point to achieve the most damage totally is this kind of game.
For first 25 points, a mage need to do 600 damage to make int and spr break even because: 600*0.002(the crit rate from spr)=1.2(the damage from int)
A mage within 20 lv cannot do 600 damage on regular attack, int win.
I remember spr gives 0.001 rate from 26-75(free stat), so:
1200*0.001=1.2, that means after 25 spr, the mage need to do 1200 damage on monster to have same damage as int. Can a mage do 1200 damage at around lv 79? I doubt it.
After 75points on spr, each spr gives 0.0005 chance of crit rate. That will make the damage needed to be 2400.
I think it's clear that if we only look at the point of view of damage, full int > full spr.
And the best way to achieve most damage is using the strategy i mention at the beginning about the game theory: do the move that gives the most value at each move.
it is, add int until you can do 600 damage, then add spr until you have 25 of it. Then add int again until 1200 damages...etc

Talk about full int vs full spr again.
Full spr have higher DoT? I disagree, or the difference is not significant. Full int does more damage per skill and so use less skill to kill a monster. So if they both kill 100 monsters, I don't see how full spr can save more sp.
Spr gives mdef. Yes, that's the only reason you would want to add spr over int imo.

Then maybe you don't realize the idea that you can and will crit more than your % belies. The only reason why I scaled it out mathematically was to be on point with factual base. Kind of like how flipping a coin should result in a 50/50 heads-tails ratio, but typically doesn't, even if the coin does have an even gram per side/face weight, and even if you flip with either side face up then results will still not come out 50/50 a whole heck of a lot.

Let's do things in the realistic way then. I crit every 4th attack on average, that's the truth of the matter. There are times I miss critting 6-9 times in a row, but deftly make that up over time with some crit runs of 3-7 in a row. I have a 17% crit rate, so I actually do crit in reality more than my % decides to speak for.

I have recently played a full INT mage to level 22, and had a +Crit Green Weapon that matched on it's Crit% that of a ZK/KM, or the like, while using a Crit% Earring. I used a Staff. 5% crit rate total, but my Crit hits were very rare, averaging out to one crit every 23rd hit. For the most part though, both stayed within a range of 4 of their respective critical rate % to be landed on.

We'll go on these criteria: 300 Base Damage Per Spell, +35 Int w/5% crit rate meaning 335 base damage per attack, and with the SPR build: +35 SPR w/17% crit rate meaning 300 Base Damage Per Spell. We're going to do it as such, because for a more difficult build, it's assumed the player will be prepared to make up for losses in some areas, with other areas made up for.

240 Attacks, which gives 10 Crits to the Pure INT build, and 60 for the Pure SPR build.

INT Base: 80,400 Base Damage, and w/Crits=83,750
SPR Base: 72,000, and w/Crits=90,000

In the realistic applications, a Pure SPR with a Tux will outdo a basic Pure INT. Now granted the rates of critical hits would raise throwing a Tux on the Pure INT, so let's go with that too, seeing as handily, I did use one on that same Pure INT guy. Now in this scenario, I still whiffed crits randomly, but for the average, 1 in 9 hits was a crit.(Which means that in the realistic application, it does begin to surpass in the mathematical, woot).

80,400 Base Damage again, and w/Crits(26.67, rounded up to 27)=89,445.

I realize your applications, but remember that what's written on paper does not always stack up to what works out in the applied form. And seeing as the dispute is in damage over time, in game, SPR will stack up quickly when your damage per spell can reach 300, maybe 290, but for the sake of keeping this simple, 300 is a good limit of damage for SPR to be a best case scenario, but even before that, you have to remember you get 3 bonuses from SPR points(although the Crit% raised is much less helpful after 25 I admit).

[slashtrak]

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate all the work you guys are putting in to this subject, and that's why my mage is currently on hold. I think Alden is actually right, and to test it I've gone and made a pure spr archer, not quite the same, but..

Anyway, even if nothing concrete comes out of this, thanks again for all your work on this subject guys.

[lordalden]

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate all the work you guys are putting in to this subject, and that's why my mage is currently on hold. I think Alden is actually right, and to test it I've gone and made a pure spr archer, not quite the same, but..

Anyway, even if nothing concrete comes out of this, thanks again for all your work on this subject guys.

It's what I'm here for. To help out. =P

[Warning]

Then maybe you don't realize the idea that you can and will crit more than your % belies. The only reason why I scaled it out mathematically was to be on point with factual base. Kind of like how flipping a coin should result in a 50/50 heads-tails ratio, but typically doesn't, even if the coin does have an even gram per side/face weight, and even if you flip with either side face up then results will still not come out 50/50 a whole heck of a lot.
When I've tried, it came out 50/50 or near enough as to not matter. The more you flip it the more it will approach 50/50. If you flip it once or twice, you might get one or two heads. I've gotten four or five heads in a row! But as you keep doing it, it will even out.

Unless you are able to flip it in such a way as to make it consistently land on one side. Neat party trick. :D


Let's do things in the realistic way then. I crit every 4th attack on average, that's the truth of the matter. There are times I miss critting 6-9 times in a row, but deftly make that up over time with some crit runs of 3-7 in a row. I have a 17% crit rate, so I actually do crit in reality more than my % decides to speak for.
I'm not so sure about that. This game is essentially a big pile of mathematics, and if it says you crit 17% of the time I'd be very surprised if you didn't crit 17% of the time. It's not like real life, which can be influenced in so many ways - it's a big calculator, and calculators don't decide to suddenly come out with 1+1=3. Unless they're bugged. :p

Seems like it may seem like you crit more than 17% of the time, but it's balanced out by the runs of misses. I don't doubt you, though... it's just very odd. Maybe we should try writing down every attack and every crit...


We'll go on these criteria: 300 Base Damage Per Spell, +35 Int w/5% crit rate meaning 335 base damage per attack, and with the SPR build: +35 SPR w/17% crit rate meaning 300 Base Damage Per Spell. We're going to do it as such, because for a more difficult build, it's assumed the player will be prepared to make up for losses in some areas, with other areas made up for.

240 Attacks, which gives 10 Crits to the Pure INT build, and 60 for the Pure SPR build.

INT Base: 80,400 Base Damage, and w/Crits=83,750
SPR Base: 72,000, and w/Crits=90,000

In the realistic applications, a Pure SPR with a Tux will outdo a basic Pure INT. Now granted the rates of critical hits would raise throwing a Tux on the Pure INT, so let's go with that too, seeing as handily, I did use one on that same Pure INT guy. Now in this scenario, I still whiffed crits randomly, but for the average, 1 in 9 hits was a crit.(Which means that in the realistic application, it does begin to surpass in the mathematical, woot).

80,400 Base Damage again, and w/Crits(26.67, rounded up to 27)=89,445.

I realize your applications, but remember that what's written on paper does not always stack up to what works out in the applied form. And seeing as the dispute is in damage over time, in game, SPR will stack up quickly when your damage per spell can reach 300, maybe 290, but for the sake of keeping this simple, 300 is a good limit of damage for SPR to be a best case scenario, but even before that, you have to remember you get 3 bonuses from SPR points(although the Crit% raised is much less helpful after 25 I admit).
Quick point - base damage for the pure INT dude would be 342. Bonus every five points; 7 5s in 35, 35 + 7 = 42.

Damage over 240 hits for INT: 82,080. With tux crits = 82080 + (27*342) = 91,314 damage.

So they're approaching equality, but INT still has the edge. Although, of course, as a few of my spells do more than 300 (300 is just the weakest) SPR may have the edge after all.

***

One thing I noticed is that the 25 SPR hybrid does seem to be doing best so far. It'd have 1% less crits than 35 SPR, correct? But also +12 damage every attack. So let's see how much...

...humm. It's probably because I'm sleepy and/or stupid, but how do you get 60 crits out of 240 attacks with 17% crit rate? 240 * .17 = 40.8!

[Warning]

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate all the work you guys are putting in to this subject, and that's why my mage is currently on hold. I think Alden is actually right, and to test it I've gone and made a pure spr archer, not quite the same, but..

Anyway, even if nothing concrete comes out of this, thanks again for all your work on this subject guys.
:) My pleasure.

I'm lagging behind a bit on the guide - that is, I have it all written except the actual numbers. I don't expect my combo is wrong, but you never can tell!

*sigh* Time to go re-average all spell damages... :p

[sorsorday]

Then maybe you don't realize the idea that you can and will crit more than your % belies. The only reason why I scaled it out mathematically was to be on point with factual base. Kind of like how flipping a coin should result in a 50/50 heads-tails ratio, but typically doesn't, even if the coin does have an even gram per side/face weight, and even if you flip with either side face up then results will still not come out 50/50 a whole heck of a lot.

Let's do things in the realistic way then. I crit every 4th attack on average, that's the truth of the matter. There are times I miss critting 6-9 times in a row, but deftly make that up over time with some crit runs of 3-7 in a row. I have a 17% crit rate, so I actually do crit in reality more than my % decides to speak for.

I have recently played a full INT mage to level 22, and had a +Crit Green Weapon that matched on it's Crit% that of a ZK/KM, or the like, while using a Crit% Earring. I used a Staff. 5% crit rate total, but my Crit hits were very rare, averaging out to one crit every 23rd hit. For the most part though, both stayed within a range of 4 of their respective critical rate % to be landed on.

We'll go on these criteria: 300 Base Damage Per Spell, +35 Int w/5% crit rate meaning 335 base damage per attack, and with the SPR build: +35 SPR w/17% crit rate meaning 300 Base Damage Per Spell. We're going to do it as such, because for a more difficult build, it's assumed the player will be prepared to make up for losses in some areas, with other areas made up for.

240 Attacks, which gives 10 Crits to the Pure INT build, and 60 for the Pure SPR build.

INT Base: 80,400 Base Damage, and w/Crits=83,750
SPR Base: 72,000, and w/Crits=90,000

In the realistic applications, a Pure SPR with a Tux will outdo a basic Pure INT. Now granted the rates of critical hits would raise throwing a Tux on the Pure INT, so let's go with that too, seeing as handily, I did use one on that same Pure INT guy. Now in this scenario, I still whiffed crits randomly, but for the average, 1 in 9 hits was a crit.(Which means that in the realistic application, it does begin to surpass in the mathematical, woot).

80,400 Base Damage again, and w/Crits(26.67, rounded up to 27)=89,445.

I realize your applications, but remember that what's written on paper does not always stack up to what works out in the applied form. And seeing as the dispute is in damage over time, in game, SPR will stack up quickly when your damage per spell can reach 300, maybe 290, but for the sake of keeping this simple, 300 is a good limit of damage for SPR to be a best case scenario, but even before that, you have to remember you get 3 bonuses from SPR points(although the Crit% raised is much less helpful after 25 I admit).

Why 300 but not 600? I think I have stat it and see no objection from you. And I do remember the 3 bonus, look at the last part of my last post...

So you are saying spr get more than +0.2% crit rate(first 25 pts) in reality, the number is giving wrong information. This is kind of abstract and hard to prove, and my personal experience tells me no, I don't get more crit than my actual crit % from spr, equip, etc.

[slashtrak]

There's a simple reason to explain why the crit rate seems higher than the stat shows.

There is no perfect RNG in Computer Science. They are all biased. So even though the game's a "pile of mathematics", because they use a random number generator to throw crit chances it will always be biased one way or the other. Fortunately for us, in Fiesta it seems to be biased for the good of the players.

[lordalden]

Why 300 but not 600? I think I have stat it and see no objection from you. And I do remember the 3 bonus, look at the last part of my last post...

So you are saying spr get more than +0.2% crit rate(first 25 pts) in reality, the number is giving wrong information. This is kind of abstract and hard to prove, and my personal experience tells me no, I don't get more crit than my actual crit % from spr, equip, etc.

No, I'm not saying the game's data is wrong, but think of it this way. Roll a couple dice, a 100, and a 10, to determine this in certainty. Roll, and decide if either 83 or higher is a crit, or if 17 or lower is a crit, but I just got the Santa Suits from the update, and my god. I crit so freakin much.

And Warning, thank you very much for correcting the bonuses, I was kinda tired at the time of doing that.