Regarding the new Guild War Rules...

[librachan]

First off, thanks CSR Circe for posting the new Guild War Rules.

However, there are some questions I would like to ask since I think some of the guidelines given are either not too clear or inacurrate to certain scenarios. I decided to post the questions here instead of opening a ticket since I'm sure a lot of active guild members will benefit from knowing the answers.

[From the thread at: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259211]

Regarding Vend-Killing...

2. Don’t shop kill. Attacking a defenseless player is not cool. Furthermore, it can result in a violation of the ToS depending on how you conduct yourself.

Can you please be more specific on how it can result in a violation of the ToS? My question specificaly points out to the fact that as stated before:

Any player that joins a warring Guild accepts the risks and possible inconveniences that this game mode involves.
Therefore, If I choose to vend under a warrable tag, Isn't it my responsibility if I end up being killed? I understand it can be awful from an ethical perspective, and not only I dont encourage it but also detest it, however, I consider it a result of a player's choice, and I accept being killed while vending. So to sum up, what kind of 'conduct' are you referring above that could result in a violation of the ToS?

Regarding Exp loss...

3. Keep the Guild war in town. There is no EXP loss in town, so it’s a good place to war. Additionally, this will give other players that do not wish to participate the ability to continue playing without hindrance.

Unfortunately, that is inacurrate. If a player without Bless of Teva dies by the hand of summoned skelletons (despite being in a town or not) will lose experience, which I think is unfortunate.
Question is: were you guys aware of this? Is this a 'glitch'? Are you guys going to fix it in the short term? Should wizards take precautions regarding this issue? Considering how sensitive everyone is nowadays regarding 'exploiting', I think we deserve to know first hand what to do and what not to do if we cherish the accounts we have worked for so hard.


Regarding the Rules in general...

As many of you know, “all is fair in love and war”. Disobeying these guidelines may not be against the Terms of Service, but we do have some guidelines that we’d like you to follow to ensure a fun experience for everyone.

So are these rules or mere guidelines? (understanding guidelines as simple 'advices', not necesarily need to follow them). You state that dissobeying them is not against ToS, but above you stated, that breaking some of these rules could be considered an offense. Which ones are 'rules' and which ones are just 'guidelines'?


Thanks a lot,

Libra~

[CSR_Circe]

First off, thanks CSR Circe for posting the new Guild War Rules.

However, there are some questions I would like to ask since I think some of the guidelines given are either not too clear or inacurrate to certain scenarios. I decided to post the questions here instead of opening a ticket since I'm sure a lot of active guild members will benefit from knowing the answers.

[From the thread at: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259211]

Regarding Vend-Killing...


Can you please be more specific on how it can result in a violation of the ToS? My question specificaly points out to the fact that as stated before:

Therefore, If I choose to vend under a warrable tag, Isn't it my responsibility if I end up being killed? I understand it can be awful from an ethical perspective, and not only I dont encourage it but also detest it, however, I consider it a result of a player's choice, and I accept being killed while vending. So to sum up, what kind of 'conduct' are you referring above that could result in a violation of the ToS?

This is one of those case-by-case situations. As an example: If it were proven that a player -- as a Guild of 1 -- was habitually warring another Guild and attacking the Guild members that are afk/vending, it COULD be viewed as harassment.


Regarding Exp loss...


Unfortunately, that is inacurrate. If a player without Bless of Teva dies by the hand of summoned skelletons (despite being in a town or not) will lose experience, which I think is unfortunate.
Question is: were you guys aware of this? Is this a 'glitch'? Are you guys going to fix it in the short term? Should wizards take precautions regarding this issue? Considering how sensitive everyone is nowadays regarding 'exploiting', I think we deserve to know first hand what to do and what not to do if we cherish the accounts we have worked for so hard.

Thank you. I will check with the team here and edit as needed.



Regarding the Rules in general...


So are these rules or mere guidelines? (understanding guidelines as simple 'advices', not necesarily need to follow them). You state that dissobeying them is not against ToS, but above you stated, that breaking some of these rules could be considered an offense. Which ones are 'rules' and which ones are just 'guidelines'?

The ones following "Here are some guidelines that will make the Guild war fair and enjoyable for all" are Guidelines; the TOS is always the governing document of what is and is not acceptable.

The general take-away from this is "don't be a jerk". I think we all recognize jerk-ish behavior when we see it, and if we all just avoid being jerks, everything will be fine.

[librachan]

Thank you very much Circe for your answers.

[beth_m]

I was wondering the same thing. I am glad that they have finally gotten some answers.

[hermybear2002]

Although I’ve been a Fiesta player for over a year now, I have only posted twice. This will be my third. I can understand the desire to test oneself against the competition and the use of the Guild War to do so. Problem is that many warring guilds are not attempting to test their skills; they are trying to bully or dominate at the expense of others. The fact that any admin can war another guild without cause solely for the need to enrich their egos is exploitation in and of itself.

I have been in several wars over the last year and have seen both team spawn killing and afk/vendor killing; neither shows either skill or competition. In addition, I’ve seen guilds war other guilds that don't stand a chance in Helga of successfully defending themselves. When that happens it is no longer a war - it is enslavement. The only recourse most players have when a war like this happens to their guild, is to log off and wait or to hide somewhere while online. Was that your design? To have players NOT playing?

We all know that the off-limits that OS assumes is respected is a farce. If it is your design that there is a safe-haven for those players not interested in participating, then you need to put one in. I’m sure you know your age demographics better than anyone; the majority of players who play Fiesta are in the 10 – 17 age range. Do you really think them capable of restraint at that age? You’re asking the wolves to guard the sheep.

I can already hear the rebuttals yelling from the tops of the trees...”Don't join a guild that has war capabilities!” “Your just mad because you got your such and such kicked” yada, yada, yada. Problem is that unless you are starting a new guild and are given a choice regarding war or exhibition, most likely your guild would have to pay to change that status, something not all of us can't afford to do. In addition, there are players online that can’t buy sc items even if they wanted to, so they can’t change their guild status.

I am not saying that the concept of “Guild War” is bad, but in my opinion, the present format for Fiesta Guild Wars are a waste of resources, time and exp to the individual player, whom by the way is your client, and unless mutually accepted, often lead to animosity and the advent of further atrocities that eventually end in someone getting banned. Most Guild Wars occur due to a bruising of egos more than the desire for skill testing; on retaliation for a player’s actions or for actions against a player(s) . I am going to give you two examples, thought there are many, of this “unfair Guild War practice”:

Example I.
A guild is warred because it banned a member who had been harassing other guild members or players in general. This player enlisted a guild who then recruits hi-level players (level 8x to10x) from other guilds. Yes, OS, this is a dynamic that happens regularly. The war is a form of retribution, not a competition between two agreeable entities. The result is usually forgone. The ensuing anger of all involved can last the rest of the day or far longer. Some people will say it’s only a game; they usually the ones on the winning side.

Example II.
A guild wars another guild that is much stronger than them - after a while it is apparent that one guild is far superior in numbers & strength. The warring guild refuses to stop attacking and is therefore killed many times over. The warring guild then enlists the help of a known piker guild, who puts out a call to arms to other players to join their guild, specifically for this war. That is not a war – it is retaliation. If you think this fantasy, you are gravely mistaken. I can guarantee it happens at least once a day…on all servers.

So I ask you; where is the FUN in all of this? If players want to test their skills against other players, you have provided 2 forums: FBZ & the abyss. If 2 or more guilds want to conduct a war, there should be the ability to accept/decline by the other guild’s admin(s) or GM. So I put this question to you once more...where is the fun in being team spawn killed by players 10-20 levels above you? Or being teamed 5 to 1 by players within your own level parameters? How is it a true test of skill and ability of a particular guild when they recruit members from other guilds prior to a war?

One last thing, OS; as stated prior, not all players have the ability to purchase sc items, such as charms or sc stones to guarantee enhancement of their gear. The fact that you permit the use of charms and extenders during a guild war is rather discriminatory, don’t you think? It seems you have unwittingly top-loaded the playing field with the rich and privileged, and created an environment that breeds dissent between those that can have and those that can not.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinions.

"Life is problems. Living is solving them” Anonymous

[slappy_d1]

unfortunatley these "guidelines" wont solve any issues. People love to be jerks in Fiesta hence PKers, KSers, etc. If people didnt wanna be jerks they wouldnt. They spawn kill cause they think its funny which is unfortunate. Its good you put it up. If one person changes b/c of it then its wirth it but overall this wont stop people from doing what they do.

[csr_hal]

Let me see if I can explain this.

About vendor killing:
The point of a guild war is to fight others. Attacking an AFK vendor isn't fighting others. Likewise, attacking a vendor that is a lower level than you (example, you are lv. 100 and the vendor is lv. 20) is just cowardly. I have seen several reports where people are guild warring just to harass weak opponets or ones that don't fight back. I'm sure you can see the problem here.

In regard to EXP loss:
You are correct, skeletons do pose a problem. We are aware of this and we are looking into it. I believe this is a bug but we'll have to see what OnsOn says. I doubt anyone will get in trouble for using skeletons, though. It's not something you'll need to worry about.

Regarding the "rules":
By rules I mean the Terms of Service. The guidelines are just guidelines. If you don't follow them, you may or may not get in trouble. It completely depends on the situation. Unfortunately, many of the situations we see are not simple so there is no simple answer. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work in a simple fashion. However, if you ever have a question, just contact us and we'll give you our opinion of the situation and how best to handle it.

[librachan]

About vendor killing:
The point of a guild war is to fight others. Attacking an AFK vendor isn't fighting others. Likewise, attacking a vendor that is a lower level than you (example, you are lv. 100 and the vendor is lv. 20) is just cowardly. I have seen several reports where people are guild warring just to harass weak opponets or ones that don't fight back. I'm sure you can see the problem here.

Thanks for your answer Hal.

Now, are you saying that, for example, if a person wars my guild, spam kill afk/vendors and just warp with scrolls when fights come into place (which proves the only purpose of the war was to kill afk/vendors), I should report that person for that behaviour? That is new to me, I wasn't aware of it, and we have been victims of things like these several times. Can you confirm please? Thanks again.