Concerns bout the Cleric

[Kholai]

With the cap being lifted soon, I've been checking the new skills that Clerics will be getting from the Uruga skill shop, and it appears to me that things will be getting pretty grim for my class.

~ No Heal upgrade.

This, I can accept, Heal has 10 levels as it is, which seems to be the intention. However, this does leave the cleric without an instant heal, which is a rather sad event, since Rejuvenate is worse than Heal thanks to the urgency in which recovery spells are needed. A seven second cooldown when fully empowered combined with almost a second cast time? Eight seconds without a heal spell? Death. So Clerics are going to be using Heal 10 for the rest of their clericking lives, even though it's supposedly "worse" than Rejuvenate, even at level 10 you'll probably heal 'em more with Heal in the same period of time.

The cleric's only immediate cast heal after cap? A Restore-style spell "Invigorate" that works on the whole party. That's.... retarded to be honest. Restore is not a spell that you cast in emergencies, it's a spell you use to supplement healing. They also only get this at level 79.
The spell that should have a use as an emergency, rapid heal? Recover, heal all party mates. Thirty second cooldown, 1.5 second casting time. ...Why do you hate clerics?
Rejuvenate can never replace Heal because it has a 0.8 second cast time, Recover has almost double that.

~ No new Protect skill upgrades, only one more Resist skill upgrade.

Protect and Resist are two of the most important ways that clerics can contribute to their parties. If these two aren't upgraded, then a level 59 cleric is as good as a level 79 is.

Total Skill Levels denied the cleric, assuming that skills are supposed to extend to tier 10?

Five for Protect, four for Resist. Why do they get a level 6 Resist, but no level 6 Protect? Why no level 7-10?

~ No new level of Bash, while Trip and Bleed are both still underpowered wastes of SP.

Bash is awesome. I like Bash, it's quick, easy and deals four times as much damage as a normal hit does.
Why isn't it upgraded? Again, what's the point of the cap being raised for clerics if they don't get any better after 59? It isn't like Heal, it's not already at level 10,
Trip and Bleed? They fail entirely, and until they're fixed, this means the level 79 cleric is STILL depending entirely on Bash 7 as their only attack skill.
Recurring theme: How is it better to be over level 59 if you're going to be using all the same skills?

Denied levels on Bash? Three. There's no reason why there shouldn't be Bash 8-10.
There's also no reason why Trip and Bleed shouldn't be fixed, if it's too much work to make them deal the additional effects they're supposed to have, or make them ranged, or make them deal the same level of damage that Bash does.... At least make it cheaper than Bash please?

~ And compared to everyone else?

Fighter:
By now, Fighters can deal AOE damage and combined stun to multiple enemies. This ability gets upgraded.
Y'know what? That's more overpowered than invincible ever was. Five seconds of stun against five enemies reduces more damage taken than invincible could ever hope to match, and has no "limit" to damage prevented this way either. It also has a much faster cooldown, and lets not discount the fact that it does damage. AOE damage.

Fighters already have a move that deals damage, and heals them. This gets improved as they level up.

Fighters get more and more attack skills, Accurate Strike, upgrades for their low level attack skills, multiple AOE skills that attack ten targets around them for massive damage, epic debuffs, reducing damage of all surrounding targets, reducing attack rate, defence, dexterity....


Fighters get two AOE attacks, self healing (oh yeah, two minute cooldown, so? It's heal), debuffs, taunts to let them tank, the best HP progression in the game, the ability to play as either tank or damage dealer, and they even have a ranged lure skill.

Well, okay, so who still thinks that clerics are the overpowered ones?

Mages:

They get their tier 3 Debuff removal spell. I only mention this because clerics don't get their tier 3 debuff removal spell as far as I've seen. Maybe I missed it?

But continuing on, they get Fear, a twenty second "can't attack, can't even retreat, sure as heck can't heal yourself" move. They continue to advance in their PVP trump card "Mana Burn", they get not one, not two, but three AOE skills, two of which have secondary effects. They continue to advance in every single one of their "level two" basic attack spells, cementing their existence as the ultra damage dealers and PVP nightmares.

Now they can even steal buffs for themselves as well as just dispell them, and debuff enemy spellcasters.
But really, who cares about those last two? The only way to level up in this game any faster than a sloth on valium is through AOE and Mages have three AOE spells. Know what? Good for them, they're damage dealers and they deserve to have their party role enhanced and improved. They'll be awesome at soloing too, since they'll be reaching that telltale point once more, where they can kill enemies before they reach them.


Archers:

Oh god, Archers are the weakest class of all!
Oh. Except they have two AOE DoT spells.
And an omega epic attack speed buff to boost their damage.
And they continue to have a dozen different DoT types for single targets, which continue to be upgraded too.
They'll be picking up entangle as well I believe, so I guess they'll still be able to solo madly?

Clerics:

Clerics get Sacrifice. When they die, and lose 1% of their Exp (probably 300000+ per death by level 62 considering the obscene numbers required to level in this game), everyone else in their party recovers 40% HP and SP.
Great. Now clerics get to level even slower?
Clerics get to continue to upgrade Invincible.
Woo. It's still worse than stun, especially AOE damage+stun. Reduce the knee-jerk nerfing on it, maybe it'll be almost as good as stun is now?

Clerics get an Endure upgrade.
Lovely, thank you. It almost makes up for all the other problems. Except it doesn't. Endure is not a party buff, so bug that level 71 cleric for Endure, then stick with your level 59 cleric buddy, he'll take less of your XP and heal just as well.

Clerics get two AOE heal spells. One is mediocre, the other is terrible. This is sad.
Clerics get to advance Rejuvenate, their single target mega heal. This is okay. And Restore, their single target regenerate spell, up to level 10. This is good. Restore is a nice spell to supplement level 10 Heal, which is apparently all that the level 70+ cleric will be using.

Let's compare:
Mages get Magic Missile.
Magic Missile takes 2 seconds to cooldown.
Mages get Magic Burst.
Magic Burst takes 5 seconds to cooldown and is AOE.
Mages get Magic Blast.
Magic Blast takes 4 seconds to cooldown, and takes 0.6 seconds to cast.

If you take into account that magic missile also takes 4 seconds cooldown if you're foolish enough to upgrade it, then Magic Blast is flat out better than Magic Missile in every way but a 0.6 second cast time. Note also that their base level AOE does not have a casting time at all.

Clerics get Heal.
Heal takes 3 seconds to cooldown.
Clerics get Recover.
Recover takes 30 seconds to cooldown, is AOE, and takes 1.5 seconds to cast.
Clerics get Rejuvenate.
Rejuvenate takes 10 seconds to cooldown and takes 0.8 seconds to cast.

Okay, Magic Blast and Rejuvenate? Same ballpark of logic. Powerful spells take longer to cast, right?
Recover? Sucks.
Don't even get me started on Quicken. Every four minutes you can instantly cast a spell that usually needs to be cast instantly anyway? Invigorate, the AOE Restore skill, has no casting time, and a seven second cooldown.
Why?! It's a buff, it doesn't need be recast until fifteen seconds is over anyway, it doesn't need to be instant cast. If you swapped the cooldown and casting time, clerics might actually continue to be good at healing their parties!


I've ranted enough about what little clerics do get out of their new skill set. What don't they get?

~ They continue to be the only class without an AOE. Every single other class now has two AOE skills.
~ They continue to be the only class that cannot lure.
~ They continue to be the slowest damaging class, except they get even worse and worse, because they no longer upgrade in Protect or Bash, and Trip/Bleed fail.
~ They do not continue to be the most survivable class. That honour now goes to fighters, who are also a great damage dealing class, the tanking class, the debuff class, and who get multiple defence and offence boosting skills of their own. Let's not forget stun and self heal. Oh, and they get two AOE attacks.
~ They do not continue to be an important asset to parties for their damage boosting buffs.

I've been an active supporter of fixing early mage and archer development so they get a much needed power boost, especially archers, and now it's apparently the clerics' turn to suffer. Not only are they apparently being told to sit down, shut up and do nothing but heal, they're also destined to be bad at it.

Please, oh please, somebody tell me that this is not the future. Tell me that they switched the cast time and cooldown on Invigorate and Recover by mistake, that they just haven't put in Bash, Protect and Resist! That they're planning on making Trip and Bleed AOE, ranged, useful! Something, anything to offset the nightmare that seems to be coming with the level cap. At least until level 59 I had a goal to level up for, new spells to desire. What the heck is going to be the point in going any further if this is all we have to look forward to?

[nerdzo]

lols. its amazing how i agree with all ur posts kholai ;D

[Hydr0]

I saw this skills too.
all we get is new heals.
and if i dont want to stand and heal all the world? i want some new attack skills.
mayb some range attack.
something new.. cuz clerics start to be boringggggg

[Harmonie_Ace]

After reading that, I'm hoping that they'll add in those upgrades later when it's much closer to the lifting of the level cap.

Otherwise...I'll be very sad and disappointed. T_T

[Mekoides]

The thing Outspark doesn't seem to get is at lvl 60, clerics are supposed to become Paladins. Paladins are warriors, defenders of good, vanquishers of evil. Not "just" combat medics. Yes, even "Supportive" Paladins.

[Ryokosha]

I don't really agree that the Cleric heal doesn't get better. Even if the new heal skills don't heal as much as heal, you have to consider that the cooldown is for each skill separate. So if you combine heal[10] with the new healing skills you can heal much more per second than you could do before.

I agree that "Paladins" should get new and better buff skills, though.

[Kholai]

Finally finished my edit.


I don't really agree that the Cleric heal doesn't get better. Even if the new heal skills don't heal as much as heal, you have to consider that the cooldown is for each skill separate. So if you combine heal[10] with the new healing skills you can heal much more per second than you could do before.

I agree that "Paladins" should get new and better buff skills, though.

Yes, if you combine Heal 10 with the new healing spells, which are categorically worse in every way with the exception of Invigorate, (which you only get at level 79 and is not useful for emergency healing, which is what you'll need if your entire party is taking hits), and don't cast Recover (which takes so long to cast you could probably have cast Heal twice, and will only be usable twice per battle at best, and is still not a valid emergency heal, since it takes 1.5 seconds to even cast the blasted thing), and instead just stick with Heal, Rejuvenate and Restore, which you've been sticking with since level 41 anyway, then you'll restore a lot of health.

This doesn't really matter of course, because heal spells require your targets to be "alive". If you restore a hundred thousand hitpoints every thirty seconds, that's lovely. You'll be healing a lot more HP per second than before. It just won't matter, because your heal target will have died, because they don't have a hundred thousand HP. In just the same way, if your squishy mage buddy is about to die in one second, you're going to be really appreciative of the fact that your only non-Heal recovery spell only takes 0.8 seconds to cast, and that if you need to keep your entire party alive, it's going to be 1.5 seconds of not being able to keep casting that chain of heals, just to restore as much to everyone as Heal 10 does anyway.

1.5 seconds is slower than some enemy's attack, so if you're mid Heal cooldown and someone's about to die, you might as well spend the time typing "Sorry, my class is suck, I can't save you.", it'll probably be quicker than trying to cast Recover.

[Trashknight]

I cried inside when I read about on fiestafan.

For those who haven't seen the skills High Clerics gets:
http://www.fiestafan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1551

[Liala]

Poor Clerics. :(

I truely hope this is fixed before the level cap is raised.

[Serric]

Archers:

Oh god, Archers are the weakest class of all!
Oh. Except they have two AOE DoT spells.
And an omega epic attack speed buff to boost their damage.
And they continue to have a dozen different DoT types for single targets, which continue to be upgraded too.
They'll be picking up entangle as well I believe, so I guess they'll still be able to solo madly?


I can only hope we can solo eventually... my secondary fighter character is multi-soloing things at lvl 10 that my archer couldn't do at lvl 15... but, archers are a supporting class, I understand that. Still, more power would rock...

As for clerics, I had in my mind that they would be awesome in the upper levels, with insta-heals and regens and whatnot. Are you saying this isn't the case?

I thought clerics were one of the top 3 power characters: Fighters, Mages & Clerics...

[Kholai]

I can only hope we can solo eventually... my secondary fighter character is multi-soloing things at lvl 10 that my archer couldn't do at lvl 15... but, archers are a supporting class, I understand that. Still, more power would rock...

As for clerics, I had in my mind that they would be awesome in the upper levels, with insta-heals and regens and whatnot. Are you saying this isn't the case?

I thought clerics were one of the top 3 power characters: Fighters, Mages & Clerics...

You are quite correct. This is not the case. Clerics, come level 59, will have no more buff upgrades, all their heal spells except for their most basic will have lengthy casting times, whilst they receive no offensive upgrades, no new buffs (one would imagine that at very least they'd get some awesome single target buffs to mirror the fighter's debuffs) and not even basic upgrades of several of their old staples.

You'll be pleased to hear that archers become very proficient soloers at about the same stage in the game. A capped archer can apparently solo the Torturer King dungeon boss, according to GM Steam.

[Atmor]

Wow...I had looked at the skills when I was in Uruga one day, and didn't realize the horrible downside you just showed us. I didn't realize that there would be no more heals, and I agree that rejuvanate really sucks because of its cast time. I say either rejuvante needs less or no cast time at LEAST, or heal needs to continue in levels so as to keep us as effective healers. I swear though if I start get getting called a bad healer when or noob or something for not being able to keep my party alive because they are taking too many at once, I will snap and just let them die faster to prove my point (okay done with pointless rant). So, hopefully the GMs or whoever will do something about this, and do something about trip and bleed too...worthless skills I swear...

[Trashknight]

Anyone found any good theory on what spell you actually can use in combination with Quicken apart from Revive? ^_^'

[Serric]

You are quite correct. This is not the case. Clerics, come level 59, will have no more buff upgrades, all their heal spells except for their most basic will have lengthy casting times, whilst they receive no offensive upgrades, no new buffs (one would imagine that at very least they'd get some awesome single target buffs to mirror the fighter's debuffs) and not even basic upgrades of several of their old staples.

You'll be pleased to hear that archers become very proficient soloers at about the same stage in the game. A capped archer can apparently solo the Torturer King dungeon boss, according to GM Steam.

Hmmm... good for me, bad for you.

It doesn't seem right... I still think a melee fighter like a cleric or Paladin should be more than equal to an archer.

[Kholai]

Anyone found any good theory on what spell you actually can use in combination with Quicken apart from Revive? ^_^'

Actually, yes. Rejuvenate, Recover, Restore, Revive, Invincible, all these spells have casting times, even though several perhaps shouldn't.


And I agree Serric, good for you, bad for me. Where the cleric was previously the class for solo, with no Bash upgrade, no more protect upgrades and no new, awesome healing spells, it's looking more like the new whipping boy of the game, can't solo, can't do anything but heal, and can't even do that well enough to keep up with the new, more dangerous enemies. =/

[Harmonie_Ace]

Wow I'm getting depressed reading this. T_T

Even so, I don't want to switch to another class... I love being a Cleric.

[Sharajen]

One thing I noticed in your original post, and don't get me wrong, I noticed the lack of combat skills we get. Not to mention the upgrades to the healings get a bit, weird. I do agree with some of your points but something to consider:

Cleric = healing class. We're the only class in the game that can cast it as a spell effectively. Vapiric strike does jack compared to a proper heal for a fighter, and many fighters consider it a waste that I've spoken to. Why bother when you can stone or have a decent heal from a cleric? So, primarily, it's our job to heal. You stated we get no AOE attacks. We're a support class, and while I do understand your saying they're underpowered, we get TWO AOE heals. Just like everyone else gets TWO AOE attacks. You want a combat AOE as well as AOE heals? Or did I miss something?
Yup, I understand they're pretty much, crappy, but the point is we DO have two aoe skills. Let's hope they build on them.

We're a support class, it's our job to heal. It's our main roles, and seems to be the focus post 59. I'm disappointed at the lack of Bash as well, I do love that skill. However I think making clerics too combat savvy is just going to make us imbalanced and why the heck would we team up with people if we were superhealing/fighting/tanking machines?

Soooo yeah, in summation, we do get two aoe skills, like everyone else. Ours just has a healing focus as opposed to damage focus. I do agree on the bash though, I love that skill.

[Garvin2000]

I have seen the drop-off coming...

that's why im lvling my archer :P

[Ryokosha]

I'll never get that high anyways, so no need to worry about it. x-x
Only thing I'm worried is that GH KQ3 isn't fixed before I'm 33. XD

[Kholai]

Cleric = healing class. We're the only class in the game that can cast it as a spell effectively. Vampiric strike does jack compared to a proper heal for a fighter, and many fighters consider it a waste that I've spoken to.

I'd agree, but the Fighter who solos now gets a self heal without using a stone. Do clerics get a powerful attack anywhere?
No they don't. Why do fighters get a heal spell whilst clerics get nothing?
Y'know what? I'm jealous. Fighters get self buffs, self heals, awesome damage, stun.... Mages are unparalelled AOE damage dealers, Archers are the DoT kiting masters.


Why bother when you can stone or have a decent heal from a cleric?

Solo, stones on cooldown... I can think of a lot of situations where you might be grateful for a third source of healing.


So, primarily, it's our job to heal. You stated we get no AOE attacks. We're a support class, and while I do understand your saying they're underpowered, we get TWO AOE heals. Just like everyone else gets TWO AOE attacks. You want a combat AOE as well as AOE heals? Or did I miss something?

First off? Yes, cleric is a support class. That logic does not mean that they should not get nice things. Fighters aren't supposed to be a damage dealing class, they're supposed to be the aggro controllers, the tanks. Archers and Mages get three AOEs each. Fighters already have two AOEs - Mock is an AOE, just aggro control oriented. Devastate is perhaps the best AOE skill in the game. They get a third too, and that one's nice. This doesn't mean that I want an AOE, it means I want something that makes up for not having one.

And y'know what, maybe I'm greedy for wanting a range attack, or finally some way for a solo cleric to control mobs, just like every other class has had for 90% of the game. I'm sure I wouldn't mind being the only class without an AOE, if they'd not just stopped giving all the things that actually were good about the class.

Also, y'know what? It's not unheard of for a support class to get an AOE spell either. Look to World of Warcraft's "Paladins". What do they get? A damage AOE spell.


Yup, I understand they're pretty much, crappy, but the point is we DO have two aoe skills. Let's hope they build on them.

We're a support class, it's our job to heal. It's our main roles, and seems to be the focus post 59. I'm disappointed at the lack of Bash as well, I do love that skill. However I think making clerics too combat savvy is just going to make us imbalanced and why the heck would we team up with people if we were superhealing/fighting/tanking machines?

Yes, I hope they actually swap the cooldown/casting time or something, because otherwise one of those AOE heals is worse than useless.

As for our "main role" why should a cleric be the only class to be shackled so? Fighters aren't restricted to low damage, high HP, mages suddenly become very survivable once they pick up their Fear debuff, even archers can dabble around as either single target or AOE attackers, and they're an incomplete class. Clerics not only fail to completely upgrade Bash, their only other attack skills are worse than a normal attack. I liked playing a cleric in Fiesta exactly because being a support character wasn't shoved down our throats, we were clerics, holy warriors who healed and smote people.

Why, when they've treated us to fifty-nine levels where we weren't just heal-slaves, take away our buffs, our only useful attack skill, and then saying "it's okay, you guys finally get an AOE heal to make up for all that" should we bend over and take it like boy scouts?



Soooo yeah, in summation, we do get two aoe skills, like everyone else. Ours just has a healing focus as opposed to damage focus. I do agree on the bash though, I love that skill.

Bluntly put: You're too focused on AOE.

What would I want out of an epic cleric?

How about moving forward, rather than backsliding?

Let's see; from level 1 to 20, the cleric gets: Their first healing spell, two party buff spells, and their first and best damage skill.
From level 20 (High Cleric) to 60, the cleric keeps and improves all of those skills, and also gets: The ability to Revive, the ability to remove debuffs, four buff skills, their second healing spell, and their first regeneration spell.
From level 60 (Paladin), the Paladin effectively loses (as in can no longer improve, and therefore dooms to obscurity as you increase in levels and challenges faced) one of their party buff spells, their first and best damage skill - none of which has reached level 10 yet. They get one new buff - which involves your own death, and thusly sucks. They get their third healing spell (which is AOE and overwhelmingly terrible), and they get their second regeneration (which is weaker, yet AOE. I honestly have no complaints about it).


So maybe instead of a retardedly bad self-buff, losing Protect and Bash entirely, no new attack spell, and the only one we get to keep being the retarded one we didn't want in the first place.... How about something like this:

Keep upgrading Protect.
Keep upgrading Bash.
Fix Trip and Bleed.
The AOE Heal not suck harder than a black hole. I can almost guarantee a 1.5 second cooldown is not workable.
Maybe, just maybe, a new targetted buff spell? Archers get a new self buff, fighters continue having two powerful self buff skills, Mages get a brand new debuff skill which is awesome....


To summarise:
Clerics get four new skills. One spell, Quicken, is essentially paying for the ability to instant cast many spells that should be instantly castable anyway, three of the spells are healing spells, one triggers at death, the other two are basically AOE "upgrades" of Heal and Restore.

Fighters continue upgrading all their old debuff skills, get a new attack skill for each of their two weapon types, get a brand new AOE, continue to improve their old one, and continue to upgrade all their self-buffs too.

Mages pick up fear, two AOEs, and upgrade all their new, more powerful spells...

Archers pick up an attack speed buff, another AOE....


Every other class gets a significant boost in offence, defence and/or general utility in their party role, if not all three. Clerics don't enjoy improved offensive ability in any sense, in fact, they're the only class that doesn't at least continue improving there. Their defensive ability was based on Protect and Heal, neither of which is getting any better now. And.... the skill that might improve their party role is Recover, which is a tenth as useful as just using Heal alone.

[Syrlith]

... But I'll stick with the cleric always, simply because it is within my nature to do so.

Anyway, I get too buisy healing people for no profit to acutally level up. X3

[Serric]

And I agree Serric, good for you, bad for me. Where the cleric was previously the class for solo, with no Bash upgrade, no more protect upgrades and no new, awesome healing spells, it's looking more like the new whipping boy of the game, can't solo, can't do anything but heal, and can't even do that well enough to keep up with the new, more dangerous enemies. =/

Start finding a way to charge for servicves LOL

Seriously, if all clerics on all servers offered themselves to groups for copper/silver per hour based on avg level of mobs fought... hehehehe. I can imagine, a group fighting a big boss:

FIGHTER: HEAL!
CLERIC: Sorry, time's up.
FIGHTER: WHAT?!?!
CLERIC: We've reached the end of your hour. Unless, of course, you'd like to purchase another hour.
FIGHTER: I don't have any silver!!
CLERIC: Well then... good luck. Hope to do business with you again sometime.

*CLERIC has left the group*

FIGHTER: RES PLEASE!
CLERIC: Sure, that will be 2 silver. Can your surviving party pay me now or would you like to teleport back to town?


::rubs hands together evilly:: heheheheheheehee!!!

[pureshok]

Start finding a way to charge for servicves LOL

Seriously, if all clerics on all servers offered themselves to groups for copper/silver per hour based on avg level of mobs fought... hehehehe. I can imagine, a group fighting a big boss:

FIGHTER: HEAL!
CLERIC: Sorry, time's up.
FIGHTER: WHAT?!?!
CLERIC: We've reached the end of your hour. Unless, of course, you'd like to purchase another hour.
FIGHTER: I don't have any silver!!
CLERIC: Well then... good luck. Hope to do business with you again sometime.

*CLERIC has left the group*

FIGHTER: RES PLEASE!
CLERIC: Sure, that will be 2 silver. Can your surviving party pay me now or would you like to teleport back to town?


::rubs hands together evilly:: heheheheheheehee!!!

Lol not with those lv 70+ heals. It will prob be easier to just stone/ pot lol. And since spells are 200 silver im assuming silver will become the new copper, and people will finally start using gold.

[Kholai]

Start finding a way to charge for servicves LOL

Seriously, if all clerics on all servers offered themselves to groups for copper/silver per hour based on avg level of mobs fought... hehehehe. I can imagine, a group fighting a big boss...
::rubs hands together evilly:: heheheheheheehee!!!

I'm going to have to agree with pureshok on this one I'm afraid. Things against that big boss would probably go more like this:


FIGHTER: Okay! We can do this! Check out my awesome new moves!
CLERIC: *Heal!*
FIGHTER: OH NOES! HE SPAWNED MOBS!
ARCHER: What a bad time to have cast my shiny new AOE disease attack! OH NOES! AGGRO!
CLERIC: Don't worry! I'll cast recover!
MAGE: AHH! THEY'RE ON ME TOO! BETTER CAST MY TWO AWESOME AOE ATTACKS! *HAXBOOM!*
ARCHER: I'll help! *Casts their other AOE attack skills!*
*Junk mobs all die. X_X*
FIGHTER: AHH! THE BOSS JUST HIT ME FOR OVER 9000! *Uses Vampiric Strike and recovers enough HP to survive another hit.*
CLERIC: Annnnnd.... We're done! *Heals everyone for 900.*
ALL: .... Just in time.
CLERIC: T_T *Goes back to spamming Heal 10.*

[sorsorday]

Thanks for your detail description of the skills and thoughtful comments.

However, I do not believe clerics get unfair treatment of the lifted of the lv cap. First off, cleric now is a little bit board in the sense that they can do damages (cleric with str deal more damages then full end fighter, non full-str archer), tank (in 1-2 ppl party), solo (tell me what class is the bot you just seen in mt or cp), heal. The high lv skills make the cleric more focus in healing.

Since the skill "heal" is already instance, there is no point to make another instant heal...High lv healing skills have casting time, it's completely parallel with mages high lv attack spell and some of archers'. Clerics are supposed to be a supporter, there is no point of giving them aoe attack skill.

Compare to fighter:
I disagree with you comparing invincible to aoe stun. Devast need to lure monsters and take the risk of getting a lot of hits before casting the spell, but invincible is totally different. btw, invincible is 100% reliable devast is not.
Fighter is not only an aggro puller, it's also a dd. A fighter with not enough damage is not enough to pull aggro, that's why they deserve another aoe attack skill. And the attack with healing ability skill? Come on, if you complain the aoe healing skills have too long cast time, cd, you should not like this stupid skill as well.

Compare to mage:
I agree that fear is the most overpowered pk skill. 20 seconds cannot do anything but stones (i remember cant use potions as well...) It's enough for a mage to kill anyone in 20 seconds. The long cd time does compensate for its powerfulness tho. It helps mage in pvp, but not really in survive. I think we both agree that mages deserve more aoe and powerfull skills.

Compare to archers:
Right now archers are not underpowered as many people say. They say archers are weak because of their low damage (which they like to add dex and spr but not str...) compare to mages (most people use full int...) However, having natural protection for survivability, dot for boss, high def monsters, and high damage range attack skills, in additional to their higher hp and dex, archers are not overpowered but is a more balanced class. After the lv cap of 59 is removed, they don't have much improvement besides one more aoe skill (cleric has much more skills than archer). I think they will remain a balanced class.

In conclusion, I think clerics are treated fairly and there is really no overpower or underpower of any classes

[Serric]

....

Where's the schadenfreude of watching them die or charging them for heals if you do it that way?

[Kholai]

Thanks for your detail description of the skills and thoughtful comments.

However, I do not believe clerics get unfair treatment of the lifted of the lv cap. First off, cleric now is a little bit board in the sense that they can do damages (cleric with str deal more damages then full end fighter, non full-str archer), tank (in 1-2 ppl party), solo (tell me what class is the bot you just seen in mt or cp), heal. The high lv skills make the cleric more focus in healing.


So.... You're complaining that a cleric that dedicates their free stats to deal more damage.... is better at dealing damage than a fighter that did not dedicate their stats to dealing damage whatsoever?
.... If a cleric with 100 points in strength dealt less damage than a fighter with 100 points in intelligence, that would be pretty freakishly retarded. It also does not outweigh the fact that you cannot discuss the balance of a single class based on the idea that every cleric adds strength.

Clank? Yes, clerics can hold aggro like fiends. It just costs a lot. Assuming a single encounter lasts thirty seconds, that's fourteen casts of Heal and two casts of rejuvenate, just to hold aggro. That's 1296 SP at high levels, where a cleric has a little over 2000. Again, why shouldn't a cleric get what they pay for?

Solo? Yes. Clerics are awesomely efficient soloers. They are also incredibly slow. This is why they are good as bots, because the average botter doesn't care how long it takes their robot to gain a level, since they're not the one doing it. I can tell you that trying to solo as a cleric is freakishly boring, slow, and unrewarding. I pity anyone who does.


Since the skill "heal" is already instance, there is no point to make another instant heal...High lv healing skills have casting time, it's completely parallel with mages high lv attack spell and some of archers'. Clerics are supposed to be a supporter, there is no point of giving them aoe attack skill.

Again, someone who's obsessed with the idea of clerics getting an AOE attack. Y'know what, I don't even need to answer this, I already covered it in my previous post, so instead, I'll point out that not all high level spells have a casting time, and when combined with an activity that, unlike damage (where the monster will either be there when the attack resolves, or will be dead, and no longer a problem), is time critical, it serves to render the spell much less useful in comparison. In Recover's case? Useless, 1.5 seconds without healing is death.
What you're suggesting is that since clerics have one single spell that is an instant heal, they should never get any better in that faculty. Like mages have magic missile, which is instant, so there's no point in making another instant attack spell is there?
Except they have four, maybe five.



Compare to fighter:
I disagree with you comparing invincible to aoe stun. Devast need to lure monsters and take the risk of getting a lot of hits before casting the spell, but invincible is totally different. btw, invincible is 100% reliable devast is not.
Fighter is not only an aggro puller, it's also a dd. A fighter with not enough damage is not enough to pull aggro, that's why they deserve another aoe attack skill. And the attack with healing ability skill? Come on, if you complain the aoe healing skills have too long cast time, cd, you should not like this stupid skill as well.

You're right. How silly of me. Let's assume that only five of a group of eight trumpies are stunned for five seconds, even though most of the group probably got hit and damaged. Two hits per stunned trumpy is prevented. Each hit deals say, 250 damage. 2500 damage prevented, and damage dealt too. Max level Invincible only stops 2300 damage, and can't be spammed every twenty seconds. Since devastate has also the chance to stun every single one of a group of ten, that could easily be stopping 5000 damage.
Yeah, doesn't compare to invincible at all, 30000 damage prevented over a two minute period blows invincible out of the water.

And no, the fighter is not a DD, this clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding on the subject. A fighter with not enough damage is also plenty able to pull aggro with mock.

[Onikasu]

Well no offense man but as I see it now, a fair amount of this forum agrees that Clerics are the #1 class hands down. All because they are the "jack of trades" master of nothing good at everything. I can understand more healing spells and stuff, but lets be honest, what Fighter does not have to pull a Kratos to kill one of you let alone a mage *assuming they dont have the 20 second skill* or archer * Poison is very lacking * in PVP???
People are complaining now about you guys having seemingless infinite HP, on top of that you want another skill to replace any Fighter which you can already do with a scroll >_>, and you also want something like Inviincible to get a major buff, * tiny buff maybe but not too huge*

Your not supposed to be the best class, you supposed to be the most FLEXIBLE CLASS, Damage+heal but no range. Archers are in this flexibility case too, I have a 2X archer so I know what I'm smoking * and it aint mary jane*
*** Archers dont out-damage mage but have DOT skills and slightyl better DEF but not so much that its noticable, and are another form of ranged***

Lets not forget, you SP doubles as HP no matter what. You dont even need HP potions. just pop and SP and your healing more than a potion in-game.

In short, I agree you need some heal upgrades maybe but not more AOE/ATT skills to out-do warriors and mages >_> and you are the least expensive class to play hands down.

[Trashknight]

Actually, yes. Rejuvenate, Recover, Restore, Revive, Invincible, all these spells have casting times, even though several perhaps shouldn't.

True. I haven't looked much at some higher tier skills around level 50, but both Restore and Invincible have a much shorter casting time(unless they get longer with higher tiers) than Revive.

Does it really offset the longer cool down for Quicken using it on Invincible(long CD but shorter than Quicken) and Restore(short CD), than Revive where it could be better used for at times? If it does, each battle must be quite long in the higher levels when you can cast Quicken in each or every second battle with the mobs.

For Recover and Rejuvenate I can't say anthing.

[Lucifire]

Top 3 out of 4 isn't that amazing. But I'd put clerics at number 1, even though my main character is a fighter. The extreme amount of buff and heal skills, plus the invincibility skill totally makes up for the slightly less hp and dmg you get versus a fighter. So guys please don't complain about getting no more skills, us fighters have no healing powers or even buffs for that matter, AND we have the average least amount of money out of all classes. NOT a good combo, we can't even afford to spam hp stones. Though, all these negatives make me proud of being a fighter. Even with so many disadvantages we still manage to pawn all the other classes. Just the other day while I was doing a kq, people showered me with praise because I tanked the big boss with my natural defense, not a buffed up spell created defense.

[Tyris]

So the hands-down most dominant class in the game isn't getting any better? Um... waaaaah?

I know you wanted your low level dominance to continue throughout the whole game, but it really shouldn't have been there in the first place. They still won't be killable in pvp.

[Kholai]

Trashknight-
This fits right in with my comments about casting time being unusable in emergency heal situations. Sometimes, 0.8 seconds is too much. It's better to avoid someone's death entirely than it is to revive them immediately after all, they tend to complain less when they aren't nursing a 90,000 Exp wound. Both invincible and rejuvenate serve here, and due to its worthlessness as a non-emergency spell, Recover is almost a mandatory target for Quickening (which basically makes the spell cost 400 or so SP, innat nice?).

Sure, a quickened revive would be lovely, but for only one spell, I'd sooner use something that would save lives. A quickened invincible, a quickened rejuvenate, or, even though the idea galls me that the clerics next level heal only becomes instant at level 68 or so, costs 400+ SP, and effectively has a four minute cooldown.


Blah blah blah Clerics, blah blah PVP???

Oh wait, fighters don't dominate PVP at your level? How quaint. Try a level 50+ fighter. In fact, try two, chain-stun plus damage plus a fighter who's dealing 400+ damage every hit? Dead cleric. Mage: Purge - Bye bye buff. Epic damage - Oop. You have to use all your SP healing? Just used an SP Stone? Mana Burn - Take some damage and you have 0 SP now. Good luck healing that.
Oh, and who cares if you don't kill that cleric? Have you seen how much damage they do? Ignore one for five minutes to go get a coffee, and you might be in trouble. Ooooo. Clerics are so overpowered.
Clerics might be great in one versus one, but it's fighters who are the real beasts of PVP, they have massive HP, deal amazing damage, and for some reason people thought it would be a good idea to give them an AOE damage+stun skill.


you want another skill to replace any Fighter which you can already do with a scroll

No clue what you're talking about here. Fighters have debuffs, stun, better equipment and better hitpoint progression. They also have cheap aggro control. Clerics don't even get to pump their damage/defence buff after level 51. No comparison? Heal is an awesome ability, but clerics do not, and cannot compare to the Fighter, who has two roles in a party more than they do.


Your supposed to be the most FLEXIBLE CLASS,

You say this, yet clerics are not the most flexible class, Fighters are. They can play tank, debuff machine, stun-chainer, damage output, AOEer.... Even single-target lurer, since they have a ranged attack.
Clerics can play.... Healer... or tank... or bait... or low level DPS assistant.


In short, I agree you need some heal upgrades maybe but not more AOE/ATT skills to out-do warriors and mages.

I never asked for an AOE attack. I do ask that at minimum the attack skill we already get actually be at least almost as good as Bash. Sadly it isn't.
You also forget that the cleric is also the buff class. We're supposed to be the ones who cast positive spells, remember? Well, we no longer get to upgrade one of our key buffs, and it's one of the ones which makes the cleric good at solo. In fact, it's probably more useful to a cleric than Endure is, and now it's not being upgraded. It's cute that you think even five more damage skills could make a cleric out-do either the fighter (who gets ten or more, and two AOEs), or the mage (who deals more damage than the cleric does with magic missile, let alone magic blast).


Blah blah, clerics blah extreme buff blah.

Extreme amount of buff and heal skills? O.o
Clerics get three heal skills so far: Heal, Restore and Rejuvenate.
Clerics get six buff skills: Invincible (worse than stun), Resist (doesn't really benefit the cleric, it benefits the mage), Endure (good spell, and is usually cast on everyone near the cleric anyway), Immune (worthless), Stoneskin (1% extra chance to block. Nice, but hardly incredible) and Protect (boosts cleric's damage to acceptable levels, drops the damage they take to acceptable levels, the most awesome of buffs the cleric gets, and.... no longer upgraded).


So guys please don't complain about getting no more skills, us fighters have no healing powers or even buffs for that matter, AND we have the average least amount of money out of all classes.


You're level.... 19, right?
Fighters get: Lower enemy defence - A buff equivalent? Increase your damage and everyone else's.
Fighters get: Lower enemy attack speed and lower enemy attack strength - Equivalent? Increase your defence and everyone else's.
Fighters get: Increase your block rate by at least 14% - Equivalent buff? Oh wait, that's a buff. They get it at level 27. It serves to reduce the damage a shield fighter takes. Since the duration is a minute, and cooldown is six seconds, the fighter can keep this active when needed, and it will usually last an entire fight.
Fighters get: Increase your attack strength, whilst decreasing your defence - That's a buff too. I thought fighters didn't get any buffs? And heck, if you've got a cleric in the party, or you're going to have to stone the same number of times anyway.... Well dang, might as well be dealing epic damage, am I right? Fighters get this buff at level 20, so you should be getting it soon, no worries.
Fighters get: Vampiric Strength - Damage an enemy, and recover health as though a tier 5 heal was cast. Dang, fighters don't get heals though do they?
Fighters get: Devastate - Damage ten enemies, stun them all. I've already mathematically proven how easily this outdoes invincible in every single way, yet it also does AOE damage, can be repeated every 20 seconds (30 seconds of stun every two minutes means? Yes, that in the same time period, devastate can last twice as long as a fully empowered invincible, more than three times as long as an unempowered one, and stop six times as much damage).

So, fighters are expensive to play are they? Good thing that an hour in Ancient Elven Woods can net you thirty silver without costing you a thing, isn't it? Those poor solo fighters who just sit and kill orcs all day, picking up drops worth 200-500 copper each, they must be using like, 150 copper worth of stones on each enemy at least!!! At least they kill wikkid slow right?
Oh, wait, they can switch to an axe, step up the pace, and kill fast, gaining money and experience faster than a cleric can.


Even with so many disadvantages we still manage to pawn all the other classes.

Seriously, keep telling yourself that your class has it bad if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make it true, and it doesn't justify the cleric being shafted.


I know you wanted your low level dominance to continue throughout the whole game, but it really shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Yes, woo. Clerics are the most dominant class in the game.
Until maybe level 30?
But they really are the most survivable class in the game. At least until now, where their defence boosting buff goes bye bye, their best single target healing is now capped, their second spell has a ten second cooldown and their new heal spells are an insult, and fighters have AOE stun, massive HP regardless of build, and multiple methods of reducing enemy damage output.

Oh, and look how clerics dominate solo!
Yeah, I've seen an axe fighter solo three orcs at once, using one health stone and one SP stone the whole fight. I use three stones or more, just restoring lost SP, and I'm reasonably sure they were either same or lower level than me.
Clerics survive better in solo in exchange for killing slower than every other class. Even a mage can accumulate cash and exp quicker than a cleric in solo, so long as they stick to greens. Think they're going to get any quicker now their damage is going to get proportionally worse? The longer the fight, the more expensive for the cleric, and as they have to fight stronger and stronger enemies without getting the stronger toys to make up for it, those fights are going to get longer still. I don't imagine you're using the same skills you did at level 17 nowadays do you? Clerics will have to do something just like that, because they get nothing to replace what they're no longer allowed to upgrade.

And watch them in PV- Oh wait, that fighter just devastated them, converted into a defence debuff, unleashed a power hit.... Oop, crit. Dead cleric. High level PVP? Clerics die. Two against one? Clerics die. Mages getting even better mana burn, purge, steal enchantment and fear spells? Clerics die.

Drop the "omg clerics are invincible" prejudice, pay attention to how things actually go in the game, clerics are in line with the other classes, even after a very brief early head start that stemmed purely from the advantages of the heal mechanic.

Every other class continues to progress in offensive and defensive power, except the cleric. I dunno if you thought they did, but clerics never were good in offensive power in the first place, so.... gee, I dunno, what happens if one character levels up, and another character doesn't? Oh right, the character who's actually improving gets better than the character that isn't very, very quickly.
Clerics are in that same situation. They get no more Bash, and their other two attacks are broken, they don't even get Protect. Their big new skill is a pathetically bad AOE heal (this does not benefit clerics at all, it benefits every other class), and Sacrifice, where the cleric has to die in order to heal everyone.

Compare this to every other character, who not only get new skills that do benefit them, but aren't losing any of their staple abilities either.... Yeah, clerics aren't getting "equalised", they're getting sodomised.

I hate post limits.

[tsj6k]

I can't believe I got more depressed after reading your post.
I did see the new skills and think - nothing new to look forward to.

But your analysis really makes me feel silly making a cleric.

[Tyris]

"Oh, and look how clerics dominate solo!
Yeah, I've seen an axe fighter solo three orcs at once, using one health stone and one SP stone the whole fight. I use three stones or more, just restoring lost SP, and I'm reasonably sure they were either same or lower level than me."

Guess what? That axe fighter was taking a considerable risk. I can do that but I need my stuns/debuffs to land. Heal always lands. You will always use the 4 sp stones on that fight, the fighter may use 3 hps stones and 2 sp stones or more if his stuff doesn't land. His hp stones are also quite a bit more expensive than your sp stones. He was also probably jacked up on scrolls and using a cleric's hp/sp buff. Thanks for the anecdotal evidence though.

[Kholai]

Is that the only argument you have with my entire post? Well congrats. I guess that means you support everything else I've said, and you can just leave. Bye now.

[Onikasu]

You say this, yet clerics are not the most flexible class, Fighters are. They can play tank, debuff machine, stun-chainer, damage output, AOEer.... Even single-target lurer, since they have a ranged attack.
Clerics can play.... Healer... or tank... or bait... or low level DPS assistant.


Every other class continues to progress in offensive and defensive power, except the cleric. I dunno if you thought they did, but clerics never were good in offensive power in the first place, so.... gee, I dunno, what happens if one character levels up, and another character doesn't? Oh right, the character who's actually improving gets better than the character that isn't very, very quickly.
tank= Fighter
Archer= Debuff
and stun -chainer, maybe if you had 3 of em, have you ever seen mara or marlone in KQ stunned for more than 45 seconds straight??

Damage output should = mage but anyone can claim that if they are full STR * even a cleric*
AOE, well Clerics were not really meant to be a damage dealer so thats your answere there.

Healer = primary role
Tank = secondary being shared with warrior
Low level DPS assistant= same boat as warrior

Want DPS? go mage or full STR archer,
Want tank?? go warrior, although you can live longer as a cleric any day of the week. I will say this again :rolleyes:
Classes are meant to be one or the other not a God feared all in one package like the cleric. As for your two fighters? how about 2 or more clerics? * by random chance of course*

Now let me repeat myself
"Great at everything, Master of nothing." <--------- that is how it is supposed to be.

[Liala]

Heh his concern is not that he wants to be overpowered, but that the lack of upgrades means he'll be underpowered, and clerics will be come useless.

Instead of trying to argue, why not actually read and digest the thread before posting.

And try to realize that if the clerics are unable to heal us and buff us properly, it is US that will suffer most, not them.

[Kholai]

tank= Fighter
Archer= Debuff
and stun -chainer, maybe if you had 3 of em, have you ever seen mara or marlone in KQ stunned for more than 45 seconds straight??


.... You do know what a debuff is, right? Archers have zero debuffs other than DoTs. Fighters skills that cause stun, reduce defence, reduce attack rate, reduce damage, reduce dexterity.... Debuffs. Fighters are debuffers.


I will say this again :rolleyes:
Classes are meant to be one or the other not a God feared all in one package like the cleric. As for your two fighters? how about 2 or more clerics? * by
random chance of course*

Two fighters are more of a threat than two clerics, much more. Two clerics versus two fighters? Victory to the fighters. Two fighters and one cleric versus one fighter and two clerics? Victory to the two fighters. Fighters are both damaging and durable, clerics aren't.


The Famous Maiya has it right; I'm not some cleric fanboy who wishes his class was the best in the game, I've not requested many of the things you people are for some bizarre reason assuming is fundamentally important for me to have, such as outdoing every class, or outdamaging mages, or having super AOE attacks.... I like playing my cleric, and for the most part? All I want is for my cleric to get better at the types of thing my cleric does now.

[sorsorday]

So.... You're complaining that a cleric that dedicates their free stats to deal more damage.... is better at dealing damage than a fighter that did not dedicate their stats to dealing damage whatsoever?
.... If a cleric with 100 points in strength dealt less damage than a fighter with 100 points in intelligence, that would be pretty freakishly retarded. It also does not outweigh the fact that you cannot discuss the balance of a single class based on the idea that every cleric adds strength.

I did not complain it, I am just saying cleric can deal reasonable damage with full str build. With full str build, it doesn't decrease the ability of them in being a good healer. I have tried it and right now lv5x.


Clank? Yes, clerics can hold aggro like fiends. It just costs a lot. Assuming a single encounter lasts thirty seconds, that's fourteen casts of Heal and two casts of rejuvenate, just to hold aggro. That's 1296 SP at high levels, where a cleric has a little over 2000. Again, why shouldn't a cleric get what they pay for?

This shows you have not enough knowledge of how to tank with cleric...
When I was spr/end build, I can tank when duoing with mage(not always) and archer(not full str). After I changed to str, I can tank when duoing with mage and archer(sometimes even full str). Healing is not the only way to tank...with bash and keep hitting the monster, a cleric can tank a monster because the healing helps a little bit too. Btw, you cannot tank by just use healing since healing has little aggro only. If a monster hit my teammate and my teammate doesn't attack it, it takes 2+ heal before the monster goes to me or 1 bash. So bash is very effective in pulling aggro. If my first bash is crit, I can 100% tank the monster when team with mage or with an archer that is not full str.


Solo? Yes. Clerics are awesomely efficient soloers. They are also incredibly slow. This is why they are good as bots, because the average botter doesn't care how long it takes their robot to gain a level, since they're not the one doing it. I can tell you that trying to solo as a cleric is freakishly boring, slow, and unrewarding. I pity anyone who does.

At the beginning I think you have a high lv cleric since you go to uruga to look for new skills. Now I don't...
lv30-33 cleric can solo in cp, lv40 in uruga. Which class can do the same thing effectively?
Cleric is boring because it can heal and is very safe.
Mage is very exciting because their hp drops drastically. Mage and archer both have to kite a little bit to prevent respawn and reduce hp loss.
I am not sure about fighers.
I prefer safety than excitement.


Again, someone who's obsessed with the idea of clerics getting an AOE attack. Y'know what, I don't even need to answer this, I already covered it in my previous post, so instead, I'll point out that not all high level spells have a casting time, and when combined with an activity that, unlike damage (where the monster will either be there when the attack resolves, or will be dead, and no longer a problem), is time critical, it serves to render the spell much less useful in comparison. In Recover's case? Useless, 1.5 seconds without healing is death.
What you're suggesting is that since clerics have one single spell that is an instant heal, they should never get any better in that faculty. Like mages have magic missile, which is instant, so there's no point in making another instant attack spell is there?
Except they have four, maybe five.

I never say all high level spells have a casting time, I don't know where you get that from. Mages have different instant skill because attack skills have to be spammed for effectiveness. When does cleric need to spam healing skill? In a crapy party or very rare situation like minidragon kq. If you design another instant healing skill, what would it be like? Combine heal and restore together or what?


You're right. How silly of me. Let's assume that only five of a group of eight trumpies are stunned for five seconds, even though most of the group probably got hit and damaged. Two hits per stunned trumpy is prevented. Each hit deals say, 250 damage. 2500 damage prevented, and damage dealt too. Max level Invincible only stops 2300 damage, and can't be spammed every twenty seconds. Since devastate has also the chance to stun every single one of a group of ten, that could easily be stopping 5000 damage.
Yeah, doesn't compare to invincible at all, 30000 damage prevented over a two minute period blows invincible out of the water.

Have you read my whole explanation? You cannot compare invincible with devast because they are used in different situation. (only in one situation, you mentioned, their purpose overlapped)


And no, the fighter is not a DD, this clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding on the subject. A fighter with not enough damage is also plenty able to pull aggro with mock.
Plenty? In an aoe party shows it clearly. A mage just need to crit one or two hit to OT a fighter with max cd in mock and max cd in devast. A full str archer always OT a figher when killing boss even the figher kick+mock. My friend as a lv4x figher full end need to use axe in order to get enough aggro. He has maxed cd in mock too. A full end fighter only has enough aggro when party with mage who keep using lv1 skills or archer who doesnt spam skills. Mock alone sometimes is not even enough to keep cleric from OT in some rare situation. This clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding on the subject.

[tarugo]

Clerics are actually healers.

Though using the term Paladin is incorrect if the clerics are not supposed to be able to be frontline troops that deals damage near comparable to a Fighter.

So yeah, using the term Paladin is incorrect if they are limited in damage ability and are simply better at heals or buffs.

And the "Sacrifice" ability? What's this? Martyrdom?

[Kholai]

This shows you have not enough knowledge of how to tank with cleric...
When I was spr/end build, I can tank when duoing with mage(not always) and archer(not full str). After I changed to str, I can tank when duoing with mage and archer(sometimes even full str). Healing is not the only way to tank...with bash and keep hitting the monster, a cleric can tank a monster because the healing helps a little bit too. Btw, you cannot tank by just use healing since healing has little aggro only.

You say I don't know how to clank, then you say you can't tank just by healing? Way to fail. You can hold aggro of massive mobs, not just single monsters, just by healing alone. No need to damage, no need to critical, perfect aggro holding.


At the beginning I think you have a high lv cleric since you go to uruga to look for new skills. Now I don't...
lv30-33 cleric can solo in cp, lv40 in uruga. Which class can do the same thing effectively?


I am fully aware of the fact that clerics can solo higher level monsters much earlier than other classes. This does not make it fast, rewarding, or worthwhile to do so, as killing three yellow monsters rewards more Exp, more drop loot, and for any class but cleric, takes very little time to do.
Oh, and since you asked, I'm level 57.


Mages have different instant skill because attack skills have to be spammed for effectiveness. When does cleric need to spam healing skill? In a crapy party or very rare situation like minidragon kq. If you design another instant healing skill, what would it be like? Combine heal and restore together or what?

What, did you finally read my earlier posts or something? Yes! The AOE heal skill is supposed to be for either for a rare, emergency situation, or as an efficient way of improving the cleric's ability to heal over time. It's certainly not the latter, and the casting time stops it from being the former. If I were to make another instant healing skill? I'd make it Restore. With no casting time.
Here, let me clarify:
1: Clerics lack the ability to emergency heal more than one person at a time.
2: Classes gain new abilities as they level up.
3: Clerics should gain the ability to emergency heal more than one person at a time.


Have you read my whole explanation? You cannot compare invincible with devast because they are used in different situation. (only in one situation, you mentioned, their purpose overlapped)


Except that no, they are not used in different situations. They are used, when fighting mobs, to stop the enemies from hurting someone. Devastate also happens to deal damage to multiple enemies, so if you say that stun is merely a biproduct of an AOE damage attack then that biproduct is better than invincible, even if it's only used against one target.



Plenty? In an aoe party shows it clearly. A mage just need to crit one or two hit to OT a fighter with max cd in mock and max cd in devast. A full str archer always OT a figher when killing boss even the figher kick+mock. My friend as a lv4x figher full end need to use axe in order to get enough aggro. He has maxed cd in mock too. A full end fighter only has enough aggro when party with mage who keep using lv1 skills or archer who doesnt spam skills. Mock alone sometimes is not even enough to keep cleric from OT in some rare situation. This clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding on the subject.

Y'know what, I party with a mage with 25 spirit, a green wand, the cash shop dress, and 2% crit earrings. She crits constantly, and we AOE constantly, yet our fighters rarely lose aggro. Maybe your friend is just doing something wrong? Or you massively outlevel him? I dunno, something up there.
This still does not support the idea that the fighter is a damage dealer, so it doesn't look like it's me who's having trouble up in the brain pan now, does it? Or in your reality, are mages tanks too, because they take aggro sometimes?

[Onikasu]

The Famous Maiya has it right; I'm not some cleric fanboy who wishes his class was the best in the game, I've not requested many of the things you people are for some bizarre reason assuming is fundamentally important for me to have, such as outdoing every class, or outdamaging mages, or having super AOE attacks.... I like playing my cleric, and for the most part? All I want is for my cleric to get better at the types of thing my cleric does now.

Well if that is all your getting at, then I already agreed with you on my first post in this thread, clerics need a wee bit of an upgrade, to stay in balance. Although IDK where half of the attack and debuff arguments came from 0_o I saw em and just posted my 2 bits on the few posts that were made.


You say I don't know how to clank, then you say you can't tank just by healing? Way to fail. You can hold aggro of massive mobs, not just single monsters, just by healing alone. No need to damage, no need to critical, perfect aggro holding. I know what you mean 0_o I had a level 30 Cleric who was kind enough to help me in luminous stone, she got quite the attention fomr that 1 little heal spell 0_o

[Serric]

Hmmm... for clarification sake, where does, say, a lvl 30-35 cleric stand in relation to a fighter, mage, archer of equal level? Do the classes balance out between themselves or is there an inbalance? Can you define?

[sorsorday]

You say I don't know how to clank, then you say you can't tank just by healing? Way to fail. You can hold aggro of massive mobs, not just single monsters, just by healing alone. No need to damage, no need to critical, perfect aggro holding.

Yes, if your teammates does not do anything, healing alone is enough for aggro. And yes, if you keep using highest lv heal and rej, you can have enough aggro. But the situation is rare and not effective.


I am fully aware of the fact that clerics can solo higher level monsters much earlier than other classes. This does not make it fast, rewarding, or worthwhile to do so, as killing three yellow monsters rewards more Exp, more drop loot, and for any class but cleric, takes very little time to do.
Oh, and since you asked, I'm level 57.
Let's compare orc with harken: orc has hp 3562, harkan 2695.
For full str cleric, the difference in the damages on them are not very different, as long as harkan is still yellow or green(i am not sure about other color). I am not sure about non-full str cleric.
orc has exp 8xx harkan 405. Orc has 2x in exp and 1.5x in hp compare to harkan. Orc can stun but hitting more harkans mean more pulling time, it sort of break it even. Orc drops hq (not sure if it drops regular...) loots and harkan drops regular. Harkan drops rate is higher, but consider high lv loot is 3x price of regular, it kinda break even too.
Killing orc needs more heal, the problem is relieved a little by using some tricks to reduce the healing time (don't wanna post the trick here). Harkan wins in less sp consumption.
Uruga is a better place for cp to grind because has more potential to get a party which aoe chicken, trumpies, or fight monster in FOS 1 by 1.
I would not say which one is better since they are both very competitive.
Btw, I don't know why you mention killing 3 yellow monsters is faster than killing 1 red...as i have mentioned above...


What, did you finally read my earlier posts or something? Yes! The AOE heal skill is supposed to be for either for a rare, emergency situation, or as an efficient way of improving the cleric's ability to heal over time. It's certainly not the latter, and the casting time stops it from being the former. If I were to make another instant healing skill? I'd make it Restore. With no casting time.
Here, let me clarify:
1: Clerics lack the ability to emergency heal more than one person at a time.
2: Classes gain new abilities as they level up.
3: Clerics should gain the ability to emergency heal more than one person at a time.

If it's in rare, emergency situation, someone deserve to die instead of the cleric saving the whole team by some special healing skill. If death is not involved in a game, the game is too easy. Make a restore with no casting time? Why restore still exist then...maybe more cd than restore?? I am sure you will complain it has long cd by then. Look at mages skill, they all have trade off. Ice has slow, fire has high damage, mm has short cd, lighting suppose to have stun effect(right now is underpowered...).
Let me answer your concern:
1. a cleric should prevent more than one person with big hp drop. I don't think there should be a special skill to prevent the case that a fighter is not doing a good job in getting aggro.
2. What abilities you mean? They get new skills.
3. look at 1


Except that no, they are not used in different situations. They are used, when fighting mobs, to stop the enemies from hurting someone. Devastate also happens to deal damage to multiple enemies, so if you say that stun is merely a biproduct of an AOE damage attack then that biproduct is better than invincible, even if it's only used against one target.

First, I did not mean stun is biproduct, second, invincible can be used in more situation than devast, and as I mention before, devast require gathering monster before casting it. Invincible can be used in situation like getting chest within a few monsters you dont want to deal with (devast can almost do the same thing but not 100%). You want to run through some monsters or escape (devast can almost do the same thing but a little bit dangerous and not 100%). Btw, 100% guarantee always require a premium, that's why invincible has some disadvantage compared to devast as you mentioned.


Y'know what, I party with a mage with 25 spirit, a green wand, the cash shop dress, and 2% crit earrings. She crits constantly, and we AOE constantly, yet our fighters rarely lose aggro. Maybe your friend is just doing something wrong?

Let me give you the detail scenario. The fighter is lv57 full str and is the master of the stronggest guild (hopefully it convinced you he is a good fighter) with hp extender (that's why full str can tank trumpies...) The mage is lv58 full int. The mage can OT at a chance of 1/2 to 1/3 for each group of trumpies. Of course, he doesnt pull aggro of every monster otherwise he doesnt even have the chance to take stones...


Or you massively outlevel him? I dunno, something up there.
This still does not support the idea that the fighter is a damage dealer, so it doesn't look like it's me who's having trouble up in the brain pan now, does it? Or in your reality, are mages tanks too, because they take aggro sometimes?
I never say fighter is a damage dealer(stop your bad interpretation), I only say they should have enough damage to get aggro. As you know, mages are getting more aoe skill, merely mock and devast is not enough to get aggro from the monsters which the fighter is not attacking, so they totally deserve more aoe skill.

[vafan]

If this is as you decribe it as, they ought to fix it before raising the level cap. Honestly.

Even if they don't fix it, clerics will always be loved for their heals and endures, I don't think you'll have to worry about being without a party.

[Kholai]

Hmmm... for clarification sake, where does, say, a lvl 30-35 cleric stand in relation to a fighter, mage, archer of equal level? Do the classes balance out between themselves or is there an inbalance? Can you define?

Hmm.... There is a natural ebb and flow of power that should be noted.

From level 1-15, the Mage is king, they level fast, cheap, and with a bare minimum of fuss, even solo. Clerics don't quite fall into place yet, since they don't have the HP reserves to survive long enough to heal.
From level 15-25, the fighter is pretty much it. Clerics haven't quite hit the sweet spot of heal durability, while fighters still have some way to go before they have their massive HP regardless of build, they're having an easy time soloing right now.
From 27-40 or so, the cleric is easily the most survivable, and is a slow, yet steady levelling machine, whilst the other classes haven't developed in damage yet.
Level 40+, mob HP continues to grow, mob Exp drops. Clerics fall into line once more as damage from the other classes increases, Fighters snag devastate, Mages grab their second level spells, Archers get their various DoTs to become very proficient single target damagers, but still play second fiddle to mages.
Level 50+, Clerics starting to plod a little now, fighters pick up their second level devastate with high chance of stun, mages have picked up all their new spells, and probably dumped everything except magic missile from their first lot. Even archers have caught up, with their new AOE poison making them a pretty effective AOE damage dealer.

All the classes are, more or less, equal, though not identical. Mages obviously kill fastest, but have the most trouble surviving, followed by fighters and archers. Clerics might not die, but on their own they level extremely slowly, with the exception of specially constructed, license and weapon dependent solo builds.
In a party, which is the ideal situation in Fiesta, each class has an expanding list of abilities that it brings to the group, from mage's AOE megadamage to the cleric's party buffs, and generally all classes contribute a similar amounts of usefulness to the party, and this too, is a form of balance. Fiesta is unusual that it caters to both solo and party balance so well.


Vafan - You speak the truth, I'll probably be able to scrape by on my max tier heal, same as I always do. It's still depressing that a level 59 cleric will probably do just a good job as I can when I'm level 79, only mages will care too much about resist after all, and even they rely heavily on the increased defence that Protect grants, and not being able to upgrade that is possibly the most annoying thing.

[Nerria]

I don't mean to be a nit-pick here... well, yes I do.

You said using Invigorate isn't to be sued in emergencies but to supplement healing. I'd think otherwise... technically you shouldn't have to supplement healing because Heal should be fine alone.

However, if aggro spreads to the party members [emergency] you'd start spamming Invigorate as well as Heal.

So... it seems more like an emergency spell to me, not a casual one.

Other than that, I agree mostly but my fingers are to cold to type up a decent reply to all your points.

[Kholai]

I don't mean to be a nit-pick here... well, yes I do.

You said using Invigorate isn't to be sued in emergencies but to supplement healing. I'd think otherwise... technically you shouldn't have to supplement healing because Heal should be fine alone.

However, if aggro spreads to the party members [emergency] you'd start spamming Invigorate as well as Heal.

So... it seems more like an emergency spell to me, not a casual one.

Other than that, I agree mostly but my fingers are to cold to type up a decent reply to all your points.

The problem Nerria, is that invigorate isn't an AOE heal spell, but an AOE restore spell. Sure, you could spam it, but it lasts fifteen seconds; spamming it would extend the duration, it wouldn't increase the amount healed. This makes it at best, a time buying technique, or, if Restore functioned as a decent party heal, as a heal supplement.

Sure, it's still more helpful than Restore, thanks to its instant nature, but it's not Invigorate that's the problem, I like Invigorate, I like it enough to think that it could be good if it had a 1.5 second casting time and a 30 second cooldown, because I simply don't expect to have to cast it in any situation where two squishies are about to die and need immediate recovery.


Sorsorday - I could go on and on at you about how misguided you are, mention how easily a cleric can hold aggro in a party of higher level archers and mages, or even from fighters spamming mock and devastate, and educate you how to do the same. I could launch into explanations about how I do not want another Restore, merely to fix the existing skill, and I could type and type until my fingers drop off, and I believe that you would still neither accede to, nor even understand, what I'm saying.

I have reached the conclusion that you are either mentally deficient, or deliberately obtuse. Either way, your arguments draw focus away from this threads main topic, that of the cleric's future skill issues, and thusly I shall ignore them from now on.

[Nerria]

Well I take that back then, you are very right. I haven't memorized my 60+ spells since I'll never get there, but I assumed we got an AOE DIRECT heal along the lines (invigorate being that). Restore as well but whatever.

-falls back-

[sorsorday]

Sorsorday - I could go on and on at you about how misguided you are, mention how easily a cleric can hold aggro in a party of higher level archers and mages, or even from fighters spamming mock and devastate, and educate you how to do the same. I could launch into explanations about how I do not want another Restore, merely to fix the existing skill, and I could type and type until my fingers drop off, and I believe that you would still neither accede to, nor even understand, what I'm saying.

I have reached the conclusion that you are either mentally deficient, or deliberately obtuse. Either way, your arguments draw focus away from this threads main topic, that of the cleric's future skill issues, and thusly I shall ignore them from now on.
Now you come to obviously personal attack, not sure if it sticks with this thread's main topic..."how easily a cleric can hold aggro in a party", not sure if it sticks with the main thread either. My post started with demonstrating a cleric is a little bit overpowered before the lv cap lifted and the treatment of it is fair. I remember we started the argument about cleric tanking from I said cleric is able to tank. Your reply "Clank? Yes, clerics can hold aggro like fiends. It just costs a lot." Then I show you cleric can effectively tank without costing a lot. We also argue about the solo ability of cleric which I think cleric is quite effective compare to other classes. This solo ability is to prove further that cleric is a little bit overpowered. The other issue we argue about is if a fighter has enough aggro without new aoe skills. This relate to my first post about fighter deserve a new aoe skill and cleric doesn't deserve it.

When I ask what instant skill you expect you said one with restore ability, not sure how you defend your statement "I could launch into explanations about how I do not want another Restore."

It seems your argument is driving towards personal attack now, it's not a good way to hide the fact that your argument is not convincing.

[Kholai]

Well I take that back then, you are very right. I haven't memorized my 60+ spells since I'll never get there, but I assumed we got an AOE DIRECT heal along the lines (invigorate being that). Restore as well but whatever.

-falls back-

No worries, I'd assumed the same thing, it was only when I read closer that I finally noticed the difference and started throwing my toys out of my pram.
In all honesty, if the level 79 heal had been the "real" heal, I'd have been plenty happy to put up with having Recover as the AOE Restore, at least then we'd have something to look forward to.

[Serric]

Hmm.... There is a natural ebb and flow of power that should be noted.

From level 1-15, the Mage is king, they level fast, cheap, and with a bare minimum of fuss, even solo. Clerics don't quite fall into place yet, since they don't have the HP reserves to survive long enough to heal.
From level 15-25, the fighter is pretty much it. Clerics haven't quite hit the sweet spot of heal durability, while fighters still have some way to go before they have their massive HP regardless of build, they're having an easy time soloing right now.
From 27-40 or so, the cleric is easily the most survivable, and is a slow, yet steady levelling machine, whilst the other classes haven't developed in damage yet.
Level 40+, mob HP continues to grow, mob Exp drops. Clerics fall into line once more as damage from the other classes increases, Fighters snag devastate, Mages grab their second level spells, Archers get their various DoTs to become very proficient single target damagers, but still play second fiddle to mages.
Level 50+, Clerics starting to plod a little now, fighters pick up their second level devastate with high chance of stun, mages have picked up all their new spells, and probably dumped everything except magic missile from their first lot. Even archers have caught up, with their new AOE poison making them a pretty effective AOE damage dealer.

All the classes are, more or less, equal, though not identical. Mages obviously kill fastest, but have the most trouble surviving, followed by fighters and archers. Clerics might not die, but on their own they level extremely slowly, with the exception of specially constructed, license and weapon dependent solo builds.
In a party, which is the ideal situation in Fiesta, each class has an expanding list of abilities that it brings to the group, from mage's AOE megadamage to the cleric's party buffs, and generally all classes contribute a similar amounts of usefulness to the party, and this too, is a form of balance. Fiesta is unusual that it caters to both solo and party balance so well.


Vafan - You speak the truth, I'll probably be able to scrape by on my max tier heal, same as I always do. It's still depressing that a level 59 cleric will probably do just a good job as I can when I'm level 79, only mages will care too much about resist after all, and even they rely heavily on the increased defence that Protect grants, and not being able to upgrade that is possibly the most annoying thing.

Thanks for taking the time to respond so thouroughly. :D

However, I am still confused. You state clearly that all classes are, for better or for worse, pretty balanced, yet you continue to argue that Clerics become unbalanced in the higher levels. Do you still think this is true or do you think that at these higher levels the classes are finally reaching the apex of their abilities as designed? Are clerics, like Mages and Archers, not a supporting class, but unlike Mages and Archers also able to act independantly more effectively for soloing even multiple mobs?

Please keep in mind I am not arguiing your initial point, not being a cleric myself I have no authority to do so, but am genuinely interested in your debate.

As a bottom line, even more than greater heals, are you suggesting clerics should have more melee combat skills rather than supporting skills?

Please forgive my ignorance if I have misinterpreted or misunderstood what you have already said.

[Psylent]

Yes, if your teammates does not do anything, healing alone is enough for aggro. And yes, if you keep using highest lv heal and rej, you can have enough aggro. But the situation is rare and not effective.

Sorry, but even if your party-mates are spamming skills on mobs, you can pull aggro just by healing. And I have personally seen Kholai hold aggro from 5+ Clover Trumpies in AEW while Maiya was spamming huge mage blasts... they never even flinched off of him.

How was he holding aggro? Spamming heals on himself--nothing else.

[Liala]

Heh, this is funny.

I hate to break it to you Sorsorday, but not only did Kholai WRITE the book on Clanking, he and I are the ones who made up the very term. =/
(I made it up, he made it popular :cool:)

But this topic isn't about clanking, its about the lack of skill develpment for Clerics in comparison to the other classes, and their risk of becoming not usefeul in their party roles.

[Serric]

Heh, this is funny.

I hate to break it to you Sorsorday, but not only did Kholai WRITE the book on Clanking, he and I are the ones who made up the very term. =/
(I made it up, he made it popular :cool:)

But this topic isn't about clanking, its about the lack of skill develpment for Clerics in comparison to the other classes, and their risk of becoming not usefeul in their party roles.

What?! I totally made that up... yeah... about a wee - a mon - ten! Ten years ago!

I made up the Internet too. And the letter Q! But not the letter q... still waiting to hear back from the copyright office on that one....

:p

[Psylent]

...I made up the Internet too.
...
:p
Lies! That was Al Gore... (¬_¬)

It's too bad to see there's not much to look forward to up there. Hopefully, they'll power Trip up before too long. It's sad a 15s skill that costs more SP than bash can be so much weaker.

[sorsorday]

Sorry, but even if your party-mates are spamming skills on mobs, you can pull aggro just by healing. And I have personally seen Kholai hold aggro from 5+ Clover Trumpies in AEW while Maiya was spamming huge mage blasts... they never even flinched off of him.

How was he holding aggro? Spamming heals on himself--nothing else.

What I mean is tank effectively. Consider he has to use the highest lv heal (yes, require high lv heal) and keep spamming it every 2sec, the sp consumption made it not an effective way to tank. The healing point for aggro to damage point for aggro is about 2:1 ratio. That means every 1 damage on monster has about the same aggro as 2 hp healing. Cleric at lv57 has healing skill to heal 9xx hp or more, magic blast damage is less than 4xx on monster i believe, and heal has much shorter cd than magic blast, so yes, it can be done but not effective.

[Kholai]

Thanks for taking the time to respond so thouroughly. :D

Not at all, I'm always happy to answer questions when the querent is polite.


However, I am still confused. You state clearly that all classes are, for better or for worse, pretty balanced, yet you continue to argue that Clerics become unbalanced in the higher levels. Do you still think this is true or do you think that at these higher levels the classes are finally reaching the apex of their abilities as designed? Are clerics, like Mages and Archers, not a supporting class, but unlike Mages and Archers also able to act independantly more effectively for soloing even multiple mobs?


Yes, I do believe that up to this point, all classes have been, if not equal, then tending towards equality. However, until now, the levels 60-79 have existed mainly in theory, and haven't had the chance to be polished, it's my opinion that on closer inspection, this is really showing up in the cleric skills, based on my experience with a cleric and the situations that arise during combat, most clerics, on realising the same thing I have, agree that there is a problem.

Do I believe this to be a natural "apex"? Perhaps partly. Heal, as I've stated, has reached an obvious peak at level 10, and Heal especially represented a giant leap in cleric survivability with every new tier.

However, there are many such skills that are obviously not at any particular point where they might be considered finished. Protect, for example, is simply discontinued after five levels, whilst Resist, its sister-skill, carries on. Bash? Discontinued without rhyme or reason, unlike every other class with the exception of mages, who simply retain their level two spells instead. Bleed and Trip? Both skills aren't simply bad, they are broken, they are intended to cause a status effect, yet they do not.
If this is simply unfinished, then their omission is easily explained that they just "haven't been put in yet". If the developers have chosen to omit these skills, at least one of which is almost as integral to the Cleric class as Heal is, then I would hope that they would have the decency to at least explain why.

However, there is more than simply that which clerics are denied, there is what clerics might be getting, and just aren't. I've covered this before, so I'll summarise the new stuff:
Mages - More AOE attacks and fear. Awesome, mages should get more attack spells, and they needed something to make them a bit more durable.
Archers - Another AOE attack. Oh well, archers still haven't had all their skills implemented, I'm pretty sure they'll be picking up Entangle at very least as well, but a new AOE and DoT for them is nice. They get an attack speed buff too, to really crank out the DPS.
Fighters - Two new damage abilities and another AOE.

Even if Restore weren't a 1.5 second casting time waste of a skill - And I truly hope that Outspark developers will be fixing that one. That leaves us with two other skills. I have no troubles with Invigorate, none at all, but Sacrifice is at best a waste of a skill, at worst an insult. There are so many possible things that skill could have been.
It could have been a party evade/aim buff, in keeping with Protect and Resist. < Hey, is there anyone who'd like that one?
It could have been a curse resistance buff, in keeping with Immune < Well, Immune sucks, but it's better than Sacrifice.
It could have been a critical hit increasing buff too, or one that limitted the XP lost by dying.
If it wasn't a buff, it could have been a ranged attack spell, which would fit in nicely with mages getting something they'd never had before too. Anything, anything could have been put in place of that nonsense skill.


As a bottom line, even more than greater heals, are you suggesting clerics should have more melee combat skills rather than supporting skills?


I won't lie, it would be nice to have some of the abilities we lack. A ranged attack would make my day, if only to make me feel special as I stood in the back lines and spent 99% of my time healing, that 1% where I shot lightning in something's face? Awesome, and it needn't imbalance the game in the slightest if made as "efficient" as trip and bleed are now.
But no, whilst I believe that clerics should get attack skills (something the developers obviously agree with, or why would they have given them heavy weapons and an attack skill at level 5?), I don't believe they should outstrip any other classes in terms of raw, statistical damage, or that attack skills should ever comprise the bulk of the cleric (they only get two attack skills over their first forty levels after all).
But as stated above, there are so many things that the cleric could have that would still be support spells, only ones that are actually useful. Ideally the cleric should mirror the fighter, the fighter reduces damage and defence, the cleric increases them.


Does this clarify the problem for you any?

Oh, and yeah, Maiya did make up the term Clanking. I thought it was cute and started using it whenever I talked about cleric tanking.




What I mean is tank effectively. Consider he has to use the highest lv heal (yes, require high lv heal) and keep spamming it every 2sec, the sp consumption made it not an effective way to tank. The healing point for aggro to damage point for aggro is about 2:1 ratio. That means every 1 damage on monster has about the same aggro as 2 hp healing. Cleric at lv57 has healing skill to heal 9xx hp or more, magic blast damage is less than 4xx on monster i believe, and heal has much shorter cd than magic blast, so yes, it can be done but not effective.

This is the last time I respond to you on this topic, after which I would appreciate you either starting a new thread to talk about how you hold aggro of eight blue trumpies at once whilst in an AOEing party, or simply becoming silent.
Now, yes, the technique is expensive, but whilst doing so, you will not lose aggro, you will be healing yourself anyway (in fact, whilst AOEing at such a level, you'll need to use rejuvenate and restore as much to stay alive as to hold aggro), however, if you believe that doing so is ineffective, then I simply pity whoever parties with you, since they'll be the ones suffering when you lose aggro.

[Patchouli]

Just to nitpick a little...




Mages:

They continue to advance in their PVP trump card "Mana Burn", they get not one, not two, but three AOE skills, two of which have secondary effects. They continue to advance in every single one of their "level two" basic attack spells, cementing their existence as the ultra damage dealers and PVP nightmares.

Now they can even steal buffs for themselves as well as just dispell them, and debuff enemy spellcasters.
But really, who cares about those last two? The only way to level up in this game any faster than a sloth on valium is through AOE and Mages have three AOE spells. Know what? Good for them, they're damage dealers and they deserve to have their party role enhanced and improved. They'll be awesome at soloing too, since they'll be reaching that telltale point once more, where they can kill enemies before they reach them.

Let's compare:
Mages get Magic Missile.
Magic Missile takes 2 seconds to cooldown.
Mages get Magic Burst.
Magic Burst takes 5 seconds to cooldown and is AOE.
Mages get Magic Blast.
Magic Blast takes 4 seconds to cooldown, and takes 0.6 seconds to cast.

If you take into account that magic missile also takes 4 seconds cooldown if you're foolish enough to upgrade it, then Magic Blast is flat out better than Magic Missile in every way but a 0.6 second cast time. Note also that their base level AOE does not have a casting time at all.


Mana Burn is borderline useless, no matter how much SP it takes off. It has a 3 minute cooldown which basically translates to "press your stone or your sp potion key and then forget this skill exists."

There is an indirect problem with those AoEs, they make massive amounts of hate. I already break mock [2]'s effect very easily just by casting one lvl 60 ice nova [1], and end up with all the stuff attacking me. Fighters don't get a Mock [3].

Most of the level 2 mage spells with cast time flat out lose in DPS. Magic Blast needs to do 1.5x the damage of magic missile 1 to break even (it takes 1.3 seconds for an instant cast spell to discharge, roughly) which for me, it falls badly short. Ice Blast shares the same cooldown with Ice Bolt. Lightning Blast does LESS damage than Lightning Bolt.

Well, mages aside...

Re: The cleric skills, if you're willing to go by the Japanese version of Fiesta, which is ahead of us, and assume that what they have will be added to us shortly, keeping in mind that they don't really want us to have lvl 60+ content yet either...

Every skill you mentioned that stops at high cleric has additional levels as a Paladin, Heal goes up to level 14, Bash goes up to level 11, there is a level 3 cure, and so on.

Bleed causes the Bleeding (damage over time) status effect, Trip causes a stun effect. There's two additional attack skills, once that causes a lowered def effect on the enemy, and one that causes a lowered mdef effect on the enemy. There's also another party-wide buff.

[Nerria]

Just to smack myself in the face again... after reviewing it more. We get AOE direct heal at level 60 and onwards. Recover - one is from job change - saw it on Oceans skill bar in some picture I believe. So we do get more heals, although a normal heal upgrade would be nice, I can live with my AoEs.

1.5s cast time but still nothing to scoff at coupled with Heal. Although that 30sec cool-down looks REALLY ugly for such a little amount of HP. That needs to be fixed.

[Kholai]

Nerria: It's the 1.5 seconds that worries me. If my party is having "issues" (and sometimes they do, bless their little aggro stealing hearts), I want mah heal to resolve. Now. I don't want to wait 1.5 seconds. Rejuvenate has a 0.8 second casting time, but actually takes a little longer for the heal to resolve, so I shudder to think how long Restore will take; 1.7? 1.9? Monsters can and will be attacking in that space of time, and someone is going to die, purely because cooldown exists. The cooldown after it? Combined with the casting time, it's an insult, without, I think I could accept it, because then it could be a panic button, and still stop the cleric from being the apex of lolhax party invincibility.

Patch: I've not been aware of any issue with DPS, indeed, my mage buddy regularly shouts out very big numbers with magic blast, usually pretty high. I'll be sure to do some tests with her to compare the two. Maybe my next thread will be "Concerns about the Mage". =p
As for Mana Burn, the most effective anti-cleric tactic I've is when two mages with mana burn, one waits until the cleric uses an SP stone normally, the other waits until they use a potion to survive. By the time stones have cooled, the cleric is dead, or has wasted a good number of potions and stones.

On the cleric, this is the kind of response I was hoping to see. Upgrades for Heal, Bash and Protect, attack skills fixed, new buffs.... At least now there's something to hope for, thank you.

[Serric]

Not at all, I'm always happy to answer questions when the querent is polite.



Yes, I do believe that up to this point, all classes have been, if not equal, then tending towards equality. However, until now, the levels 60-79 have existed mainly in theory, and haven't had the chance to be polished, it's my opinion that on closer inspection, this is really showing up in the cleric skills, based on my experience with a cleric and the situations that arise during combat, most clerics, on realising the same thing I have, agree that there is a problem.

Do I believe this to be a natural "apex"? Perhaps partly. Heal, as I've stated, has reached an obvious peak at level 10, and Heal especially represented a giant leap in cleric survivability with every new tier.

However, there are many such skills that are obviously not at any particular point where they might be considered finished. Protect, for example, is simply discontinued after five levels, whilst Resist, its sister-skill, carries on. Bash? Discontinued without rhyme or reason, unlike every other class with the exception of mages, who simply retain their level two spells instead. Bleed and Trip? Both skills aren't simply bad, they are broken, they are intended to cause a status effect, yet they do not.
If this is simply unfinished, then their omission is easily explained that they just "haven't been put in yet". If the developers have chosen to omit these skills, at least one of which is almost as integral to the Cleric class as Heal is, then I would hope that they would have the decency to at least explain why.

However, there is more than simply that which clerics are denied, there is what clerics might be getting, and just aren't. I've covered this before, so I'll summarise the new stuff:
Mages - More AOE attacks and fear. Awesome, mages should get more attack spells, and they needed something to make them a bit more durable.
Archers - Another AOE attack. Oh well, archers still haven't had all their skills implemented, I'm pretty sure they'll be picking up Entangle at very least as well, but a new AOE and DoT for them is nice. They get an attack speed buff too, to really crank out the DPS.
Fighters - Two new damage abilities and another AOE.

Even if Restore weren't a 1.5 second casting time waste of a skill - And I truly hope that Outspark developers will be fixing that one. That leaves us with two other skills. I have no troubles with Invigorate, none at all, but Sacrifice is at best a waste of a skill, at worst an insult. There are so many possible things that skill could have been.
It could have been a party evade/aim buff, in keeping with Protect and Resist. < Hey, is there anyone who'd like that one?
It could have been a curse resistance buff, in keeping with Immune < Well, Immune sucks, but it's better than Sacrifice.
It could have been a critical hit increasing buff too, or one that limitted the XP lost by dying.
If it wasn't a buff, it could have been a ranged attack spell, which would fit in nicely with mages getting something they'd never had before too. Anything, anything could have been put in place of that nonsense skill.



I won't lie, it would be nice to have some of the abilities we lack. A ranged attack would make my day, if only to make me feel special as I stood in the back lines and spent 99% of my time healing, that 1% where I shot lightning in something's face? Awesome, and it needn't imbalance the game in the slightest if made as "efficient" as trip and bleed are now.
But no, whilst I believe that clerics should get attack skills (something the developers obviously agree with, or why would they have given them heavy weapons and an attack skill at level 5?), I don't believe they should outstrip any other classes in terms of raw, statistical damage, or that attack skills should ever comprise the bulk of the cleric (they only get two attack skills over their first forty levels after all).
But as stated above, there are so many things that the cleric could have that would still be support spells, only ones that are actually useful. Ideally the cleric should mirror the fighter, the fighter reduces damage and defence, the cleric increases them.


Does this clarify the problem for you any?

Oh, and yeah, Maiya did make up the term Clanking. I thought it was cute and started using it whenever I talked about cleric tanking.





This is the last time I respond to you on this topic, after which I would appreciate you either starting a new thread to talk about how you hold aggro of eight blue trumpies at once whilst in an AOEing party, or simply becoming silent.
Now, yes, the technique is expensive, but whilst doing so, you will not lose aggro, you will be healing yourself anyway (in fact, whilst AOEing at such a level, you'll need to use rejuvenate and restore as much to stay alive as to hold aggro), however, if you believe that doing so is ineffective, then I simply pity whoever parties with you, since they'll be the ones suffering when you lose aggro.

No, that pretty much sums it up clearly for me. :D I just wanted to make sure I understood what was going on was all. However, as I said, not being a cleric myself puts me at a disadvantage as I am not familiar with the aspects of the class as you are.

[Tyris]

I fully believe clerics should have a weak ranged attack spell. Crowd control would be a good substitute, a root would be perfect. But then I also fully believe that every heal spell should have a casting time and that every spell whatsoever should not be castable while you're being attacked, so I guess that throws that out of the window.

This game has really gone out of the way to make sure that healing classes are no longer the ones that require the most skill to play. Being able to instantly heal as a largely reactionary process takes most of the skill, and fun, out of it.

If you didn't find the cleric extremely boring to this point in the game, I really don't know what you expected to change later.

[Sharajen]

*munches on cookies and digests thread*

Apologies for the first post Kholai, re-read and it sounded rather antagonistic. Wasn't my intent.

I am understanding a little more now I think, than when first read. I had thought, and responded to the point purely on the fighting skills alone. The want for what I assumed was an aoe attack on top of the healing skills. An aoe attack would be nice, but I think I'd take a pulling skill (ranged) more than an aoe myself. In a pt, I'm not too worried about aoe damage, but being able to pull well, that's one avenue I'd love to be more useful in. However, I guess it's personal preference on that one. Which role you'd rather be able to do more. Though a damaging range attack would allow us to fall back, and for those who don't like to get right in there and hit things (crazy people, but yanno) they can still do *something* besides hit heal once or twice. (Yes I know, that as a playing style is an entire other debate in itself, and not something I like doing :P)

The healing stuff well yes, is rather worrying though thank you Patch, it sounds like things will be moving in a much better direction than most can see now.

Not entirely sure how clear I made it but I LOVE MY BASH o.o and will be so happy if they continue to upgrade that, and the heals. Nothing over level 10, despite the constant rise in player HP = erk. As for the Trip/Bleed if they fix that, I would love it x.X (Yeah, I know, I still use it, Sp waster what I is :P and I know you've seen me use it Kholai) It's just too durn pretty not to... I'm aware of how redundant that may sound :P But yes, if they could get that working effectively, and not have it be such a waste, I'd also be mega happy.

The post got all huge, and about tanking etc. and yeah, I'm not going there for long. You can tank by healing, seen it done, done it myself when needed. I still, prefer a fighter... a decent one mind, but it can be done. All about the playing style on that one for me.

Not sure if there's anything else...

*nudges some coffee to Kholai*
seems you've brought up quite an evocative post. ^^

[Kiabosk]

Omg!! The Freakin Mages Are Gonna Get Awesome Spells While We Will Get Nothing Useful!! :( Why?? Why??

[Tyris]

Is that the only argument you have with my entire post? Well congrats. I guess that means you support everything else I've said, and you can just leave. Bye now.

This sure makes it look like you're only here to argue. Worthless post.

[ToorimaKun]

WOW i never thought about all that...
i don't think the regen spells suck all that bad though... how ever they should last alot longer. both spells should last 1HR also the party regen is pethetlicly weak... 70HP for 15 seconds... that is pethetic. even if the normal one dosen't last 1HR this one definitly should... and should also heal for more.

[Nerria]

1 hour regeneration? Can you say "over-powered".

You could fight Orcs non-stop for hours at a time and never have to heal. You could cast it on low levels and watch them be healed to 100% after every hit. 1 hour regeneration duration would be insanely unbalanced.

As for the AOE DH: Yes, the 1.5 time scares me, coupled with that hideous cool down I hardly see use for it. I can hardly see myself using it much. Unless it gets a boost sometime soon. And no one should be complaining about that making us over-powered because it helps other people more than a Cleric. (eases our job a bit but w/e)

Restore AOE will be really nice - although it should at 'least' be equal to our highest single-target restore for the first version. Once again, it isn't over-powering us because it is mainly helping our parties...

I really hope the devs take some of this thread in and note about it because these issues have arisen over and over and it will only get worse when the cap is lifted. I honestly believe Fiesta is balanced by mid-game now - but it looks like balance is shattering as we move to late-mid game (60-80). AS for end-game (90-100), well, let's get through this part first. >_>

:cool:

[sorsorday]

This is the last time I respond to you on this topic, after which I would appreciate you either starting a new thread to talk about how you hold aggro of eight blue trumpies at once whilst in an AOEing party, or simply becoming silent.
Now, yes, the technique is expensive, but whilst doing so, you will not lose aggro, you will be healing yourself anyway (in fact, whilst AOEing at such a level, you'll need to use rejuvenate and restore as much to stay alive as to hold aggro), however, if you believe that doing so is ineffective, then I simply pity whoever parties with you, since they'll be the ones suffering when you lose aggro.

I never have an aoe party that requires clerics to tank, so no one is suffering. It is ineffective doesn't mean I won't do it if the circumstance exist. I don't know how you make it up, but your logic is totally wrong.
Btw, I am not interested in how you tank trumpies, my post start by saying cleric can tank, and you are the one who say it doesn't pay off...When I agree on it implicitly by saying your method of tank is ineffective, you said I have lack of knowledge in that subject...I hope you know what you are talking about and know what your position is.

[sorsorday]

Just to nitpick a little...



Mana Burn is borderline useless, no matter how much SP it takes off. It has a 3 minute cooldown which basically translates to "press your stone or your sp potion key and then forget this skill exists."

There is an indirect problem with those AoEs, they make massive amounts of hate. I already break mock [2]'s effect very easily just by casting one lvl 60 ice nova [1], and end up with all the stuff attacking me. Fighters don't get a Mock [3].

Most of the level 2 mage spells with cast time flat out lose in DPS. Magic Blast needs to do 1.5x the damage of magic missile 1 to break even (it takes 1.3 seconds for an instant cast spell to discharge, roughly) which for me, it falls badly short. Ice Blast shares the same cooldown with Ice Bolt. Lightning Blast does LESS damage than Lightning Bolt.

Well, mages aside...

Re: The cleric skills, if you're willing to go by the Japanese version of Fiesta, which is ahead of us, and assume that what they have will be added to us shortly, keeping in mind that they don't really want us to have lvl 60+ content yet either...

Every skill you mentioned that stops at high cleric has additional levels as a Paladin, Heal goes up to level 14, Bash goes up to level 11, there is a level 3 cure, and so on.

Bleed causes the Bleeding (damage over time) status effect, Trip causes a stun effect. There's two additional attack skills, once that causes a lowered def effect on the enemy, and one that causes a lowered mdef effect on the enemy. There's also another party-wide buff.

Thanks of some info about high lv skills in china(?) version.
The one thing I don't quite agree is the mana burn skill. This skill is hard to reduce its cd since it will make it so powerful(in pvp of coz...). So mana burn become a skill that use only once in a battle(kill one person in 3min), and requires skill to make it right. My current theory is to use it right after a person take stone. I got this tricked once although the mage may not intentionally do it. I was a cleric and I had hp below 1/3 due to constant taking damage from an archer. I was gonna take stone and heal and puff, my sp are gone and I need to wait potion cd because I take hp pot before...

[flexiblebullet]

Kholai, I applaud you for the points you made on the Clerics becoming underpowered. They won't change the way the game is unless everyone speaks up.

I think it's utter BS that they are going to make us so underpowered, we go from being probably the most flexible, and IMO BEST CLASS (cause I can heal and do DPS) to being a 1 trick dog. (HEAL)

Give me more DAMAGE if you are going to give everyone else more damage, maybe not as much as them... but half as much as them since we're so "OVERPOWERED"

Damn mages have FEAR AND MANA BURN? is that a joke? MAGE IS OVERPOWERED.

You can't do anything for 20 seconds... which is basically an instant death... and then you have the damn MANA BURN which is going to effect the clerics the most since all our heals come from SP.... OUTSPARK SAY IT ISNT SO.

[DKMenice]

I completely aggree with what I've read here (First 4 pages, because I'm lazy), and problably most stuff in this thread. One thing that they could change is make our Invincable spell not only absorb damage, but change it so that it will reflect any damage caused to the person for the time it is casted on the person, that way we would have a slight part in AOE soloing, so that we could take a few mobs on, attack one and cast Invincable and say they damage 1/3 of their health, finish off that last 2/3 on both of them or something, it would make it a bit easier IMO.

And give us another heal :D

[Patchouli]

Okay, I will try again, more Mana Burn:

Well, this is why I say it is useless - There's a better alternative for pvp rather than the flash heal SP potion, the SP regeneration potion (not tier 1, but a reasonable one). With this, mana burn is instantly invalid.

In the best case scenario, with stones and pots both having around ~5 second cooldown the best you can hope for is for the cleric to be unable to cast things for around 4 seconds, assuming they hit their stone and pot right after another. Mana Burn has a cast time. After the stone/pot the cleric, if they were under any pressure, can get off two spells before the mana burn hits, thus they are probably at full HP and have a Restore on, meaning you have to burn through roughly around 1,500-2,500 ish HP in that time to kill the cleric. A mage can cast 1 no-cast time spell every 1.3 seconds, so they will get 3 shots to do the damage in, which on comparably levelled characters, is out of expectation.

If the argument for mana burn is that multiple people attack the Cleric in the time frame, it can be argued also that there will be more than one Cleric defending, and also that Mana Burn is significantly inferior to Devastate (The Fighter's AoE stun skill), which has a cooldown time of 25 seconds, or less if empowered, and accomplishes the exact same effect of Mana Burn, for a guaranteed longer period of time (cleric is stunned and cannot cast spells) while also preventing the cleric from mitigating some damage while running away, and possibly also hitting multiple targets.

[Psylent]

... One thing that they could change is make our Invincable spell not only absorb damage, but change it so that it will reflect any damage caused to the person for the time it is casted on the person, that way we would have a slight part in AOE soloing, so that we could take a few mobs on, attack one and cast Invincable and say they damage 1/3 of their health, finish off that last 2/3 on both of them or something, it would make it a bit easier IMO.
...
Call it something like "Shield of Thorns." A lot of games have shield wards that inflict damage on any attackers.

[MissusDolly]

Mages are defiantely overpowered. The 20 second fear spell needs to be degraded to 8 maybe 10, 20 is too long and since a mage is consider the damage dealer no one would be able to win against a mage.
Clerics are underpowered because of their damage, it just plain sucks. It needs to be boosted up some so it doesn't take them a minute to kill something.
Archers just needed a snare to keep the enemy stunned somewhat.
Fighters are already fine.
-Dolly

[AngellicDiety]

In my opinion this thread is biased against other classes. Its a well known fact that most clerics believe they are superior to almost every other class, exspecially when people are making comments that they believe the cleric is the best class in the game.

I applaud the decision, but it wont change anyways because the exact same skills are present on the korean and japanese versions too.

Furthermore the original poster has no clue whatsoever when it pertains to fighter skills.

Known facts:

Accuracy Strike - 50 second cooldown
Precise Strike - 50 second cooldown
Whirlwind - 3 minute cooldown
Vampric Strike - 2 minute cooldown

Our new skills may add more options to our arsenal. But you never considered the fact that they arent as spammable as a power hit.

I understand the primary function of heal not being upgraded, but honestly - clerics dont need to be able to heal 7000 hp in a shot come level 79...

Many will argue against me, which is fine, but the basis of this thread in the first place is wrong.

Your looking it as a comparison to other classes, well LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING CLERICS!

Mages have always been low on hp - so they have to spend a little more effort keeping up.

Archers have always been low in defence - they still have to spend some effort keeping up.

Fighters have always been low in SP/Magic defence - they have to spend some money to keep up.

Clerics... Well you've had everything you need to solo monsters outside of your level range.

Now things are balancing out? Can't handle it? Tough, deal with it.

[spyderhunter]

wow, i though i could rant...i ain't got nothin on you!!..*bowing and all that stuff*...teach me oh master!!

but yeah, i agree with everything Kholai says....*cry*...and i like being a cleric too.......................

[Kagomi]

wow, i though i could rant...i ain't got nothin on you!!..*bowing and all that stuff*...teach me oh master!!

but yeah, i agree with everything Kholai says....*cry*...and i like being a cleric too.......................

ahhh...i didn't realize my kid had logged in...pssh...

[Patchouli]

Re: Fear, in other versions of Fiesta, it's a pitiful 4 seconds.

[Atmor]

Alright let me first state I did not read every post (having been 6 pages behind) because from what I read you all keep saying the same things. So here is my new two cents worth after having digested the information.

First: If you know what you are doing then you won't have a problem keeping up with the healing. Seeing as Fiesta is down right now please bear with me as I estimate casting and cd times. So at max heal instant heals 1100 damge yes? Well as far as I have seen (only 44 cleric, been to Uruga, only partied on Orcs so please ignore my noobiness if you will...) 1100 is fine as long as you are healing an AoE tank. Now to heal an AoE tank I would think that you would cast heal then immediately cast the 1.5 sec (estimate) cast time rejuvante healing however much, then immediatly cast heal again, then cast invincible (sp?), then heal again, then restore if not already on there or if it is about to wear off. In anycase you would go like this or similar until you didn't need to anymore. If for some reason you can't completely keep up on healing (especially during AoE parties) the tank should always be wathcing their own HP and stone or pot when neccesary, because remember one stone may save your life, and eating the 100c or whatever high level stones cost for fighters, is better than eating the 90k exp loss for you and probably your party.

I am not saying Kholai that you do not know how to heal properly or anything like that, but really until you try and fail repeatedly, I don't think you should complain.

As for trip and bleed, I believe they need to be made way better, or at least continue bash. Also if you are so set on soloing, suck it up and do it. Eat the cost of the stones or get a party.

[flexiblebullet]

i dont think clerics are going to be even with other classes after this .... we will be undermatched.

[ToorimaKun]

1 hour regeneration? Can you say "over-powered".

You could fight Orcs non-stop for hours at a time and never have to heal. You could cast it on low levels and watch them be healed to 100% after every hit. 1 hour regeneration duration would be insanely unbalanced.
~cut~

uh yes the low levls would be fully healed but they only have 57-200HP...
the orcs though err no. i use regen while fighting and i still have to heal.

the regen heals more then normal heal but its over time.. not instant.
as for the PT AOE regen that should defanitly last for 1HR.

and there should also be better normal healing... if some thing dose 5k dam there is now way a cleric can keep a hole PT alive.

[Entari]

I have a cleric, and i hate how low the damage is and how underpowered they are...but when it comes down to it they are a support class...designed to boost the abilities of thier parties and keep them alive. sadly we haveta face that we are gonna be bullied around by other classes

[junhua90]

i agree with you dude.

clerics just can't be supportive all the way!

clerics need some attack skills for it's survival, this applies to all games.

for example, long range holy magic spells with godly damage that uses damn lot of SP with long cool down time. or short range melee high stun rate skills. these are just fine for a cleric. so please try to include those for the clerics.

if clerics do not have some useful spells or skills, they are as good as nothing when solo-ing. (not 100% a cleric will find a party)

[Entari]

and thats why i got to lvl 48 and made a mage :D lol i'm not done with my cleric...but it can be frusterating finding a decent party in uru or surrounding areas...theres just too many of us...

[Bubblezio]

I'd love to see atleast one range skill in the upper levels for clerics. :/ Right now, at CP, I find myself sometimes grabbing more mobs than I can handle. It feels as if I'm trying to run into a group of mobs to get myself killed. Since majority of the spots that I find good are taken.

Fighters have their snear kick where they can kick from semi-distance. Archers & mages you know...

Clerics seems like emo people to me at the moment. Low damage (for my support cleric anyways) along with not being able to just grab 1 out of a small batch. *sigh*~

After reading the first post about what skills we get, I'm tempted to only level my mage that I have at the moment. :/

[Entari]

well i dunno what i did right...but my cleric out dmg's fighters of the same lvl unless they are using an axe or have like a +6 or higher wpn...even then i sometimes notice i can drop a harken faster

[Kholai]

Sharajen: No worries, I wasn't offended at all.

Tyris: You ignore 99% of my post about class balance to select a single paragraph from it about fighters in PvP that you could argue with, and I'm the one who's "here to argue"? How very ironic.

Toorimakun: I'm afraid I must agree that a recover spell, spread over an hour, would be overpowered. Imagine casting recover. Now every 2 seconds it's as if a level 3 cleric cast heal on you, except a little better. A yellow monster that only deals 100 damage to you every two seconds? Ignored entirely. Even a red monster is effectively dealing 140 damage less to you every single hit, making everything that much easier.

DKMenice: Hm. That sounds like a nice buff actually. If it wasn't a full reflection, it could easily be balanced too.

AngellicDiety: Biased against other classes? I read the first paragraph and thought "Fighter", I'll continue reading and see if I'm- Oh, yes you are. Now let's see...
Well known fact that clerics are the best in the game? Yeah, said so by the classes who aren't clerics usually. They see a cleric surviving a situation they couldn't, and they suddenly go "oh wow, those guys must be the best at everything". Well sorry to burst your bubble, they're not, a cleric has an awful lot of flaws.


Furthermore the original poster has no clue whatsoever when it pertains to fighter skills.


Oh really? Lemme think about what I do know about fighter skills.
Every two minutes, they have a spell that can heal them if they need it, or they can leave it as an emergency heal.
They have an AOE that does massive damage, but they can only do it once every few minutes, unlike their other AOE that does damage, which they can do every twenty seconds and causes stun.
Accuracy/Precise Strike: Yet another damage skill in the fighter's arsenal.
Four debuff skills, all of which deal damage in addition to debuffing.
Another two damage skills, one for each weapon type.
A skill that allows every normal hit the fighter deals to deal increased damage.
A skill that allows the fighter almost 20% damage reduction.

Let's go into what non-skill things the poor, hard done by fighter has to back that up.

The highest HP and defence in the game.
The ability to switch to an axe for nice damage abilities.
The ability to switch to a shield at any time for even better defence.

The new skills you get aren't as spammable as an attack skill you continue to upgrade as you level up anyway?
Oh no! You poor thing!

Mages have always been low on hp - so they have to spend a little more effort keeping up.
And now mages get Fear, and had to spend just as much effort keeping up before, because they are the ultimate damage dealers.
Archers have always been low in defence - they still have to spend some effort keeping up.
Archers are awesome kiters, and can solo most enemies, even those above their level range, by using their DoTs.
Fighters have always been low in SP/Magic defence - they have to spend some money to keep up.
Magic defence is rarely ever a problem since there are so few magic mobs, and SP expenses are vastly mitigated once you start hanging around in Uruga, making thirty silver an hour.
Clerics have always been low in damage - they have to spend more time keeping up.

Balancing out? Read the thread, oh mental giant, this is not equalisation, this is one class becoming weaker than every other, and you're saying it's fine because they're clerics, then you have the gall to come here and accuse others of bias?


Atmor: No, I have no worries at all of keeping a fighter alive whatsoever, a good heal chain should be ample for anyone, and if a fighter's going to be taking that much damage you can't heal in the present environment, it's probably a boss or they're in over their heads anyway.

In fact, if you read again, you'll see that I'm talking about the loss of Bash and Protect, about getting two terrible new skills and one acceptable skill after the cap, about the spell that's supposed to protect your entire party, rather than just the tank, taking so long to cast they're probably all dead.

[RickyRVLVR]

stop complaining. im sure all characters will only be MORE equal with this cap.

[RickyRVLVR]

Besides, its common knowledge that Clerics were put on this planet for the soul purpose of healing other classes.

[Psylent]

...
Your looking it as a comparison to other classes, well LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING CLERICS!

Mages have always been low on hp - so they have to spend a little more effort keeping up.

Archers have always been low in defence - they still have to spend some effort keeping up.

Fighters have always been low in SP/Magic defence - they have to spend some money to keep up.

Clerics... Well you've had everything you need to solo monsters outside of your level range.

Now things are balancing out? Can't handle it? Tough, deal with it.
It's not about soloing. Later on in the game, soloing definitely becomes the slower/worse option, so you need the skills to be able to keep up in a party.

Of course the mage, archer, and fighter are going to take damage, which is why they rely on the cleric to keep them healed in a party. If clerics aren't given a heal that can keep up when damage starts getting in the 500-1500 per hit range, not only will clerics become useless, it will be increasingly hard for any party to survive against higher lvl mobs.

And on that same fact, mages, fighters, and archers need spend nothing on HP to keep up... that's why there are clerics. Only thing they should HAVE to spam is SP, and an occasional HP stone if the cleric is preoccupied.

[ChaosSeraph]

Looks like I'll start a Fighter now... lol
Can't believe soloing could get worse lol

[falikia]

What about the old ones i mean you do heal over 1k health and that seems sufficent i believe because like GMS are the only ones with hp like over 2.9k or something

[NamineCid]

It's not about soloing. Later on in the game, soloing definitely becomes the slower/worse option, so you need the skills to be able to keep up in a party.

Of course the mage, archer, and fighter are going to take damage, which is why they rely on the cleric to keep them healed in a party. If clerics aren't given a heal that can keep up when damage starts getting in the 500-1500 per hit range, not only will clerics become useless, it will be increasingly hard for any party to survive against higher lvl mobs.

And on that same fact, mages, fighters, and archers need spend nothing on HP to keep up... that's why there are clerics. Only thing they should HAVE to spam is SP, and an occasional HP stone if the cleric is preoccupied.

Im confused... a 46 Fighter tank killing ancent stonies take only 700 damage.. considering this is a 70+ area a lvl 70 will be taking less then 700 damage, so heal should be fine how it its. And even then if the 70 goes to fight in a lvl 100 area it will most likely take less then 1000 damage, so heal is just fine how it is.

Clerics really need a better aoe heal and the bleed skill needs to do a lot more damage then it does... right now it only adds 20 damage to my attack while bash doubles it or more

[Atmor]

Besides, its common knowledge that Clerics were put on this planet for the soul purpose of healing other classes.

Ummmmmm...what planet do you live on? I mean seriously, clerics put here JUST to heal? That would make them extremely completely undesireable to play, seeing as you would HAVE to have a party in order to level, you would HAVE to put up with idiotic fighters who can't or won't tank properly, and so on. I have been in many parties where the tank wanted to conserve SP so he didn't mock and rarely used sneering kick, so much so that we all died and he complained we couldn't do our jobs well enough to survive. This is why we were given teh ability to survive on our own, but we do so at a much slower pace than other classes. So don't give me this load about being put here to only heal, we are not your slaves you idiotic fighter.

Please excuse my name calling, it is not something I usually do.

[Psylent]

Clerics eventually become "Paladins."



Paladin:
1. Any one of the 12 legendary peers or knightly champions in attendance on Charlemagne.
2. any knightly or heroic champion.

So, obviously clerics are meant to fight as well, or how could they be knightly champions? Yeah, it's naive to say clerics are there purely for healing/buffing.

[Onikasu]

Clerics eventually become "Paladins."



So, obviously clerics are meant to fight as well, or how could they be knightly champions? Yeah, it's naive to say clerics are there purely for healing/buffing.

We all know MMORPG's throw words around easily :rolleyes:

[babykitt10]

hands down to you kholai

[Odin77]

I'm a low level cleric and you're post worries me. If this is all I have to look forward to then I don't see why I should continue with my cleric. Which quite frankly sucks because I enjoy using him and was hoping to be a future tank who could deal and take damage, but if what you say is true (and I believe it is), then we are going to be stuck in the back of the party trying to, very futiley, keep our friends alive :(.

[TwoHandGun]

what all this fuss ?XD

[Mekoides]

Clerics eventually become "Paladins."



So, obviously clerics are meant to fight as well, or how could they be knightly champions? Yeah, it's naive to say clerics are there purely for healing/buffing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's had to resort to quoting the dictionary :)

[Psylent]

I'm a low level cleric and you're post worries me. If this is all I have to look forward to then I don't see why I should continue with my cleric. Which quite frankly sucks because I enjoy using him and was hoping to be a future tank who could deal and take damage, but if what you say is true (and I believe it is), then we are going to be stuck in the back of the party trying to, very futiley, keep our friends alive :(.
Honestly, it will take you quite a while to even get to that point if you're just starting now. Hopefully, by the time you get to the 60+ lvl point, they will have the balancing resolved.

I started this game a month or so ago and I'm lvl 41 (at the rate I play now, it's only 1 level gain or less per week now).

[RickyRVLVR]

Ummmmmm...what planet do you live on? I mean seriously, clerics put here JUST to heal? That would make them extremely completely undesireable to play, seeing as you would HAVE to have a party in order to level, you would HAVE to put up with idiotic fighters who can't or won't tank properly, and so on. I have been in many parties where the tank wanted to conserve SP so he didn't mock and rarely used sneering kick, so much so that we all died and he complained we couldn't do our jobs well enough to survive. This is why we were given teh ability to survive on our own, but we do so at a much slower pace than other classes. So don't give me this load about being put here to only heal, we are not your slaves you idiotic fighter.

Please excuse my name calling, it is not something I usually do.

No no no. Although clerics ARE able to fight on their own, they were still created for the soul purpose of serving me and all other non-cleric players in this game and several other mmorpgs. :p

[cb2000a]

Wow... I hope the game designers get smart and add bash and heal upgrades.

Otherwise, why bother?

[KnightOfTruth]

Hey, haven't heard anything on this in awhile? With the new patch out today was wondering if any of this has been fixed? In particular, has trip and/or bleed been fixed? This is an infinitely critical fix that should (if its not already) be implemented YESTERDAY, why have skills that don't do what they're supposed to do? DoT and/or Stun (especially stun) would allow clerics more options than:

heal/bash...wait....heal/bash...wait

Just wondering if anyone saw an official thread about these being fixed yet or heard from GM's, because I couldn't find anything! :(

[Kholai]

Well, now that the update has occurred, and I've had some time to play with it, my update:


1: Trip and Bleed are still broken.

They are still low damage, high cost attack skills. They still do not cause the special effects they are supposed to.

2: Still no Bash, Protect, or Heal updates.

3: Recover is mediocre at best for Healing.

This, I can finally forgive. Recover is not the emergency heal spell I wanted it to be. It restores a lowish amount of health, but can be used to top up your party in non-emergency, low threat situations, and chains nicely onto Rejuvenate, which almost (almost) offsets the ungodly long casting time. It also looks boring.

For clanking, however, Recover is amazing. It generates so much hate that monsters will all attack and kill you, making it a perfect combo for Sacrifice. Save them from monsters with recover, then restore their health with sacrifice. Bad for you, good for your party, so long as they have another cleric handy.

4: Quicken does not seem to work the same way as previously thought.

At least, if it functions the same way as "chain casting" does, it eliminates cooldown, not cast time, meaning Recover still takes almost two seconds to cast, but you can cast it twice without a thirty second wait; or cast two invincibles one after the other, two heals, et cetera.

Sad that nobody from Outspark saw fit to reply to this thread and alleviate some of the concerns or otherwise, but oh well. The cleric is still suffering compared to every other class, and still need their basic skills addressed, but at least Recover is only half as terrible as I feared it would be, and at least Quicken is a whole lot better.

Roll on the bug-fix update to denerf our stats. Roll on the update to fix our skills. We can only hope that clerics are fixed in the next update, and Fiesta's favourite, the fighter, doesn't get all the love. Again.

[Ryokosha]

What skills there are and will be lies in the hands of the developers and not in Outspark's hands, that's why they probably won't reply here.

[Mackanno]

Not really. Clerics are awesome. You just got to use it right. Well if you want instant heal whats the point in red stones? Red potions? While you use SP stones for emergency whats wrong in investing in HP stones? NOTHING! So don't complain when the solution is easier than you think.

Don't complain. Archers only get -7- skills, we get nearly double that. Our buffs are awesome!

Every class has to have a weakness, if we get the instantly heal, which we don't even need, then we'll become almost god like, whats the fun in that if we can go through everything without harm or difficulty? Everyone would want to become a cleric, imagine a pvp with clerics...how -dull-...

So yeah; the morale is, don't complain...at all...err unless there is an issue with the game, or something else not to do with clerics and their skills. :D:cool:

[Esoterra]

Umm...Kholai happens to be one of the most powerful clerics in the game, and yes, at a low level, Stones are effective. HOWEVER, they are REALLY expensive later on. I'm only lvl 31 and my stones all ready cost me 53c each. And I have to buy 60.

I think that without the new skill release, the clerics are going to be somewhat underpowered, and I can understand why there is a complaint. And the worst part is, it's not even the clerics that will suffer the most: It's us. The mage, the archer, and the fighter. As our HP increases, we will need that heal to keep up as well. 900 is a lot, but lvl 79s will probably have over 3000 hp as fighters. That's 4 heals. Meaning that instead of waiting for a cleric to constantly heal us, (not to mention anyone ELSE who needs to be healed) and even with a AoE heal, we'll still need stones/pots, and in the fighter's case, Vampyric Strike. That's expensive for everyone.

With no Protect over lvl 5, our defensive capabilities will DROP significantly. Damage will suffer just the same. Although, fighters get supaawesomemega debuffing and self-buffing skills, it simply isn't enough when handling mobs of 5-6 50+ monsters. A cleric will clank in any sense (albeit kinda slowly), but like I said, it's not them that is affected the most. It's us.

And the point he was making is that the new skills they DO get are not as effective as they could be, and he's complaining that the buffs and the healing skills they get (Especially the AoE ones) are less than satisfactory. And guess what? These skills have NOTHING to do with soloing, is has everything to do with saving our butts! I don't know what all this is about him wanting some AoE ATTACK or some supaawesomemega attack, he never stated it once. What he did write was:

1. At least interchange CD times to make AoE heals more effective.
2. Increase the level on Bash and make Trip and Bleed a bit better. (Okay, a bash that is so low level at 79 is ridiculous. And anything worse than that is even more ridiculous.)
3. More levels on Protect

Only one is really solo oriented, and that's just natural. I'm sure we'd all complain if our only attack skill maxed at lvl 4. =/

If they are withholding the skills in the Japanese/Chinese/Korean versions, please bring them here soon, because most of us don't like dying. >.>

[SteiN]

Why do you guys act like vampiric strike is godly, just so you all know it sucks.


Earlier in this post you said a fighter could get hit by a boss have little to no hp use vamperic strike and survive another hit. Well lets take a look at that say im level 75 woah I just got vampiric strike [4] lets go and fight the boss (what ever boss level 70+ would be). Okay we are fighting the boss say he spawns mobs if the fighter is remotely good at tnaking he can keep the aggro whil the mage and archer kills off the mobs (just use mock non stop ne time you can use it same with devastate) so if the fighter has the boss and these mobs attacking him and he goes down to say 200 hp left I highly doubt me using vampiric strike which would heal me for 769 so that brings my total hp to 969 now say the bosses next hit is a magic attack I highly doubt it would do under 1000 hp at that level especially since fighters tend to have low magic def lets not forget tho if you sitll have the other mobs aggro'd that's alot more that 1000 damage being done to you on the next hit so no matter what the fighter needs to either use a stone or pot or get a heal their for making vampiric strike absolutley useless anyways sure it helps you regain hp faster and its free but its still little no hp especially at that level.


Clerics in most games I play are healers and buffers, I do aggree they should continue to upgrade their heals but to keep giving them attack moves especially as you were saying give them a range attack would make them to overpowered of a class. The games setup so that you have to depend on partying with other classes and that goes for any class sure any class can solo when they reach the later levels but it becomes useless to solo seeing how you waste more stones that way. And believe me I know because I solo myself more than 80% of the time and it takes longer to level in my experiences and it also wstes money.

[FatalLace]

i'd <3 a ranged attack, something like a Hammer/Mace throw would be great..... very educational, yet depressing post Kho... thanks for all the effort and knowledge u bring to Isya...

[Tyris]

Tyris: You ignore 99% of my post about class balance to select a single paragraph from it about fighters in PvP that you could argue with, and I'm the one who's "here to argue"? How very ironic.



Actually it was more because I agreed with most of it. You decided to imply that my posts could only have any worth if they argued most of your points. I'm not here to argue. End of argument :)

[ToorimaKun]

..... THEY HAVE GOT to do something.... more skills or WAY BETTER upgrades.... like i said regain and PT regain should last 1HR... and HEAL upgrads are a must... NEED the INSTANT healing.

[junkdog]

you are right a llv 59 cleric is same as a llv 79 cleric. They make the cleric the weakest class after the lvl cap. A mage in PVp can destroy us in 3 seconds. Cast fear and spam there spells including nova and inferno and the end. Its sad i know so many ppl that gave up on there clerics. Jeri keit Integra Coetly Devon quit already cause of this.

[RanmaruX]

I agree with everything Kholai has said, I'm only at level 50 so far, but I've checked out the skills and there is hardly anything useful after my level apart from the heal and buff upgrades that are cut at 59 as Kholai stated.

The cleric class will start going downhill after reaching 60 as we will not gain anything new and even our old skills will remain the same, so basically we should be killing the same mobs we did at lower levels because we won't be able to kill anything higher.


And try to realize that if the clerics are unable to heal us and buff us properly, it is US that will suffer most, not them.

Yeah I wonder about that, with us becoming such a useless class who knows if we'll even be invited to any parties now as every cleric will become useless leeches, why not just invite a lower level cleric? Same heal, more exp! This meaning 60 or even 70+ clerics will get stuck on their spot with no way to level with, but hey who needs to level if there's nothing to level up for? In fact it'd be better for us to remain low level to get in a party, ah I see that's why we get the heal on death! That way we will be able to remain lower level and help others while at it.

Mostly all of the posts I've read on this thread that have been against what Kholai's posted are pure BS, just read the posts and face the facts.

Clerics won't even be good at healing like this, let alone solo which they have always been slow at. Hey why not erase the class and move the skills to mages to make them even more overpowered by not just killing everything before they even get to land a single hit on you, but heal yourself in case they do!

I guess a lot of that was just repeating what Kholai's been saying all along, but oh well who cares as none of you are going to read any of this anyway? Just read the first few lines of the first post and flame all you want.

[yukijin]

im feeling the burn of no upgrade for bash... the damage or bash is slowly becoming less and less compared to normal attacks as i lvl... pretty soon bash will be just like trip, an expensive way to gain a small amount more DPS.

[smitske]

finally trough everything :P
my main concern is the damage, clerics have poor damage indeed, i would love them giving us another attack skill and man i would love a skill to increase thrat like mock, no ranged needed but AoE would be nice.

[tsj6k]

That will make clerics unbalanced.
We're not pushing for that.

EVEN if the argument goes that clerics should be a more healing/defensive class :

1.) We don't heal better after 59. Not at all, so for all those people saying "you're only supposed to heal", get this straight.
2.) We still need a basic attack skill. Bash's been great but its being replaced by the utterly useless trip/bleed?
3.) A 6m range attack would be nice, to aid soloing (and from getting mobbed).

[smitske]

well the heal will be neccesary later, bt wive read something a guy saying nobody except GM over 2.7k hp xP
ive seen lvl 65 with 3.5 k mate :P

[Ryokosha]

Well the only problem I really see is that it's about time they fix trip and bleed.

[Luna_Moore]

Re: The cleric skills, if you're willing to go by the Japanese version of Fiesta, which is ahead of us, and assume that what they have will be added to us shortly, keeping in mind that they don't really want us to have lvl 60+ content yet either...

Every skill you mentioned that stops at high cleric has additional levels as a Paladin, Heal goes up to level 14, Bash goes up to level 11, there is a level 3 cure, and so on.

Bleed causes the Bleeding (damage over time) status effect, Trip causes a stun effect. There's two additional attack skills, once that causes a lowered def effect on the enemy, and one that causes a lowered mdef effect on the enemy. There's also another party-wide buff.


Omg, I'm going to cry with joy. LOL. I first read this thread and figured, "I'll just reach level 60 for the cool paladin title and sit on my hands in hopes of some great skills being released when the level cap is raised again." Now I can hope that when I am sitting on my hands, those are introduced in to the game. A little more hope to hold on to. ^^

[Ralyth]

Actually with the new bug Revive doesnt prove much of a good use any more which is insane clerics arnt really needed for a revive anymore makes me angry they need to hurry and fix this feature >.> although with revive theres more hp but with the bug you come back with 1 hp

[hyperswoss]

I think everyone should just stop ***** about how "underpower" the cleic class is.

Clerics are, by far, the most overpowered class.


Also, Bleed and Trip stun in some asian versions of Fiesta, so they probably will soon.

[Luna_Moore]

I think everyone should just stop *****ing about how "underpower" the cleic class is.

Clerics are, by far, the most overpowered class.


Also, Bleed and Trip stun in some asian versions of Fiesta, so they probably will soon.


You do realize that without upgrades to Protect and Heal or some sort of decent replacement for them, every class suffers.

[Serric]

I think everyone should just stop ***** about how "underpower" the cleic class is.

Clerics are, by far, the most overpowered class.


Also, Bleed and Trip stun in some asian versions of Fiesta, so they probably will soon.

Please refrain from profanity. Find another verb.

Complaining.
Bemoaning.
Lamenting.
Grieving.

Take your pick. Just make it clean.

[Tigerpaws]

ok tell me this how r we supose to keep healing parties into god knows what lvl with the same heal for the rest of the game??? the damage to the party is gonna get bigger and bigger and we have the same heal no one is gonna want clerics that cant keep up healing the damage being delt. so what i get from this is you prolly wont see to many higher lvl clerics after a certain point in the game because we will be come nothing more then a lvl 10 cleric trying to heal a lvl 50+ aoe party.

[khchoy3]

I think everyone should just stop b***hing about how "underpower" the cleic class is.

Clerics are, by far, the most overpowered class.


Also, Bleed and Trip stun in some asian versions of Fiesta, so they probably will soon.

<- the above is censored by yours truely ^^

Anyway, in respond to that how on earth is cleric 'overpowered' ? Sure Heal is nice but hello? is also costs mp, and it don't come cheap (mp used to heal)

Cleric need more attack skills, need an AoE one. Besides an AoE/Pt-wide heal also would be nice...

[Tyris]

So we'll have to start healing with a 1s cast time and 10s cooldown time. It'll be like other games. We'll have to actually plan things instead of just reacting to everything. Suck it up and let's do the best we can.

[Psylent]

I think everyone should just stop *griping* about how "underpower" the cleic class is.

Clerics are, by far, the most overpowered class.


Also, Bleed and Trip stun in some asian versions of Fiesta, so they probably will soon.
This also coming from the guy with a "Fighter" main, and "Cleric" avatar... ;)

I don't see how someone can say "overpowered." Sure, clerics can take a beating and heal themselves, but our damage stinks horribly. Grinding, we can solo higher levels due to our END and healing abilities, but in PvP, we can't exactly kill higher lvls before they can heal themselves (no skill spamming for us... :\)

[Takako]

amen to that. I"m probably going to switch classes. I"m only lvl 47 why not switch now before it's too late? Hmm which one i already have a lvl 23 mage lol :D

[Serric]

To be perfectly honest I am not sure why this hasn't been moved to the cleric's forum. Hmmm...

<poof>

[Hydr0]

To be perfectly honest I am not sure why this hasn't been moved to the cleric's forum. Hmmm...

<poof>

Because clerics already know were screwd.. we wanna show this to all fiesta players.
so it's not should be here.

[yukijin]

i think kholai quit.

[cb2000a]

Interesting the Korean site shows heal and bash keep going up through
the 80's.

http://www.fiestaonline.co.kr/eng/

[RanmaruX]

Clearly they don't care to give us any of these new skills and fixes.

Not that I care anymore, I've quit the game now, just thought I'd pay my last visit to these forums.

Good bye.

[kobjing]

Truely deeply sadly most of the ppl who quited fiesta is cleric lvl60+, i myself belong to that group. Since from lvl 60-79 u pretty much gain no usefull skill, and all the usefull skill we had are not available to upgrade anymore. This mean that we got nothing to look forward to in leveling but new equipments and armor. As for in party a lvl 79 cleric is pretty much the same as a lvl 59 cleric, so yeah why wouldnt they want to party a lower lvl cleric right?

[Haiid]

More HP/SP, more deff, less trouble.