Counter-strat the norm

[skonesos]

Hi All, i am new to this game, and i wouldnt excatly consider myself much of an mmo player, but well here is my input on the current build advice ppl are being given ad what i think SHOULD be happening.

Firstly, as fighters, the first thing you will probably hear is that ppl are doing either full pow, or 2pow and 1agi (this is what im on).

and thats great, i guess.. or is it?

(these are taken from the official help desk, so if they are wrong, poor form outspark)

AGI does what?
increases critical (good)
increases attack speed (what for? we use skills)
increases accuracy rate (mentality has this)
increases moving speed (who cares, u gonna fight or run?)

MEN does what?
increases accuracy rate (good)
increases defence (very good)
increases magical defence (good for beating the most powerful pvp class, the mage)
increases skill casting speed (we all use skills, so this is a big plus)

so when you look at it, if you have a 2pow1agi fighter build vs 2pow1men build, the mentality build wipes the floor with it, because it is a much more effective PVP and PVE build, its a build that is meant to counter-strat the norm and to take on what is the most powerful class in the game, the mage-type.

What i want to know, is what are you ppl investing so much into AGI?
kind of silly when u think about it...

I seriously hope they bring out the re-stat item, for ingame or purchase via shop. because my build as far as i can tell is crippled already, we wont last nearly long enough in a pvp battle against anyone wielding magic spells in our direction.

just my 2cents

[skonesos]

also, can anyone confirm this.

for every point u put in MEN you get 2 Defence points added.

just me? or is that confirmed?

[skonesos]

ive also just checked as many sites as i can about what it is exactly that each stat does, and i have yet to find matching answers...

lame

[AnguishInc]

Hi All, i am new to this game, and i wouldnt excatly consider myself much of an mmo player, but well here is my input on the current build advice ppl are being given ad what i think SHOULD be happening.

Firstly, as fighters, the first thing you will probably hear is that ppl are doing either full pow, or 2pow and 1agi (this is what im on).

and thats great, i guess.. or is it?

(these are taken from the official help desk, so if they are wrong, poor form outspark)

AGI does what?
increases critical (good)
increases attack speed (what for? we use skills)
increases accuracy rate (mentality has this)
increases moving speed (who cares, u gonna fight or run?)

MEN does what?
increases accuracy rate (good)
increases defence (very good)
increases magical defence (good for beating the most powerful pvp class, the mage)
increases skill casting speed (we all use skills, so this is a big plus)

so when you look at it, if you have a 2pow1agi fighter build vs 2pow1men build, the mentality build wipes the floor with it, because it is a much more effective PVP and PVE build, its a build that is meant to counter-strat the norm and to take on what is the most powerful class in the game, the mage-type.

What i want to know, is what are you ppl investing so much into AGI?
kind of silly when u think about it...

I seriously hope they bring out the re-stat item, for ingame or purchase via shop. because my build as far as i can tell is crippled already, we wont last nearly long enough in a pvp battle against anyone wielding magic spells in our direction.

just my 2cents
If you're spamming skills.. you have some serious suck to work out.

[Rodaa]

anguishInc, we're forced into skill spamming...

also skonesos, dont multi post...

im thinking of going 2 POW 1 MEN from now

it wont effect my build that much, i've had a little bit of agi so thats a slightly higher crit rate but your right, men looks alot better

(level 27 with 8 points in AGI,anybody think its safe to switch?)

[AnguishInc]

Agony - lvl 43 Squire.

Indeed.

You're only forced into skill-spamming if you don't add AGI. :)

[Rodaa]

i have been adding agi...

using skills = faster and stronger attacks

[AnguishInc]

i have been adding agi...

using skills = faster and stronger attacks

Not at later levels. It's also a waste of MP and makes it so you have to rest more.. which results slower leveling. AGI also makes you save on pots.. getitng hit less = taking less damage.

[LooSH]

You forgot agi also add dodge, although it is not of much use:x

[AnguishInc]

You forgot agi also add dodge, although it is not of much use:x

Are you on crack? Defense only negates SOME damage.. when you dodge it negates ALL damage....

[skonesos]

Agony, how have u leveled to 43 without using slash a fair amount?
you must have really put alot of points into agility.

from lvl 10, i have stuck to the 2pow1agi build, not deviating at all, and if i want to thrash mobs.. i use skills.

im lvl 40...

If you're spamming skills.. you have some serious suck to work out.

you wanna shed some light?
the point of this thread is to help this class out. and hopefully get some official word on what the stats actually do, because its quite clear that NO ONE has it right on any of the sos websites out there.

The game itself lets u know what stats affect what areas of your character, but the different shades of colour that highlight things like defence, dodge etc are not clear to as what they indicate.

[AnguishInc]

Attack>Slash>Attack>Broken Sword>Attack>Slash
\
/
Rinse, wash, repeat.

[Aurican]

Squires are designed mitigate damage, not dodge it. It is a secondary stat for squires, which means it has some importance. Sta lets you last longer in combat before resting, plus it gives a good buff against magic damage. Men is important to every class in varying levels. A scout would want more Men than a squire for instance. The goal is same, but you're method of leveling and what you want to do with the character alter how the stats are built. Soloing, partying, and pvp require branch off in how stats are built. I build for soloing first, then set up for partying and then pvp.

In general, put 1 point into Pow each level. Then on every 5th lvl (20, 25, 30, 35, etc...) build up the next stat one at a time. How it's setup depends on what is your strategy.

Mine is build Men first, then wisdom to 6, then Agi to 17, then the rest into Stam. Obviously, this would be interrupted when I have raise another stat for a skill requirement like blazing 2 for example. Depending on how it shapes up, I plan on alternating Stam and more Men. Again that's just my idea.

[Aurican]

I would also mention that if you're not burning mana potions your precious time is being wasted, period. Slash 1 doubles standard damage. It takes about 1 second to execute. Att speed would have to be at .5 seconds to match it with an normal attack. 4 Agi gives you 3 attack speed, 17 Agi gives 2 Att speed, I believe about 30 Agi gives 1 Att speed. There are items that lower attack speed, but you won't be seeing a benefit any time soon from that. If you altenate between attack/skill/attack/skill then attack speed is nullified since casting a skill goes off instantly, takes 1 second, and you can att straight afterwards. "Spamming" a skill deals more damage, but requires mana burning. Makes sense, and everyone should be doing it. The trick is finding a map to support the costs effectively.

Soloing is still the fastest lvling method, so focusing on Pow is vital. People party to get decent drops at higher maps mostly, and being grouped is more important at higher levels.

[skonesos]

I would also mention that if you're not burning mana potions your precious time is being wasted, period. Slash 1 doubles standard damage. It takes about 1 second to execute. Att speed would have to be at .5 seconds to match it with an normal attack. 4 Agi gives you 3 attack speed, 17 Agi gives 2 Att speed, I believe about 30 Agi gives 1 Att speed. There are items that lower attack speed, but you won't be seeing a benefit any time soon from that. If you altenate between attack/skill/attack/skill then attack speed is nullified since casting a skill goes off instantly, takes 1 second, and you can att straight afterwards. "Spamming" a skill deals more damage, but requires mana burning. Makes sense, and everyone should be doing it. The trick is finding a map to support the costs effectively.

Soloing is still the fastest lvling method, so focusing on Pow is vital. People party to get decent drops at higher maps mostly, and being grouped is more important at higher levels.

thankyou for posting. brightest and most useful response yet.
Your build isnt following anything ive seen anyone else do, please keep us informed on how it works out.

Agony, ive seen a few ppl do that tactic. but to be honest, with my lag (im from australia), it makes it hard for me to do that attack-slash-attack-slash strat. i can do it, but WOW do i really want to be doing that at this point?

im lvl 40, and a LAZY lvl 40 at that, skill spamming for me is the easiest and fastest way to lvl, i dont play this game that much and there is rarely a time when i see a player dispensing of mobs quicker or harder than i do. so hopefully in the laters lvls this 2pow/1agi build sorts itself out.

[blassther]

i'm making pure POW skill Spammer : P im not power gamer so i dont care about time that i spend on resting between mob kills.

[arianmsani]

Ahh..What Agony said was right, if u dodge, u negate ALL damage, but do u noe that a neophyte,heavily invested in AGI, cannot dodge a lvl 25 monster alot when hes lvl 41?If so, then adding Men is quite useful, in the end, we still receive the same damage with these 2 diff builds.U dodge more or get hit for 4-6 damage less....

[skonesos]

They really do need to clarify what it is that each stat point does.. until they do.. this is all wishful thinking

[Soulcard]

Well,

I'm pretty new here in SotS, but so far i guess it takes time and some experiments with "fighters" to see what is best for PvP, PvE and/or party players. As well as for the other classes.

I really started thinking about the whole thing where I'm gonna put my skills in.....

Maybe I'm gonna try something different, and go for just a double up of the basic skills what u have when u changed your class.

Its just a thought....

[talonmas]

My secondary fighter is going full STA, and that's all ^.^ (name is Meat Shield, go figure)

[Varlin]

@talonmas: thats guna be interestng to see.... tell me when u make that char.

@agony: your a nub, that agi build will die and everybody knows that men is better for fighters than agi, Enough said.

in general: I dun believe that I have seen men give more defense ever when I tested the many builds I looked at in cb and I had 85 stat points or so, armor only does it.

[morphues]

Are you on crack? Defense only negates SOME damage.. when you dodge it negates ALL damage....


yeah,you dodge all attacks which means you evade all physical attacks but not magical attacks. =)

[AnguishInc]

@talonmas: thats guna be interestng to see.... tell me when u make that char.

@agony: your a nub, that agi build will die and everybody knows that men is better for fighters than agi, Enough said.

in general: I dun believe that I have seen men give more defense ever when I tested the many builds I looked at in cb and I had 85 stat points or so, armor only does it.

The only nub here is you. Honestly, you are one of the WORST excuses for a squire I have ever seen.

[skonesos]

The only nub here is you. Honestly, you are one of the WORST excuses for a squire I have ever seen.

:S oh noes... i might still be on that list!

[arianmsani]

Squires are designed mitigate damage, not dodge it. It is a secondary stat for squires, which means it has some importance. Sta lets you last longer in combat before resting, plus it gives a good buff against magic damage. Men is important to every class in varying levels. A scout would want more Men than a squire for instance. The goal is same, but you're method of leveling and what you want to do with the character alter how the stats are built. Soloing, partying, and pvp require branch off in how stats are built. I build for soloing first, then set up for partying and then pvp.

In general, put 1 point into Pow each level. Then on every 5th lvl (20, 25, 30, 35, etc...) build up the next stat one at a time. How it's setup depends on what is your strategy.

Mine is build Men first, then wisdom to 6, then Agi to 17, then the rest into Stam. Obviously, this would be interrupted when I have raise another stat for a skill requirement like blazing 2 for example. Depending on how it shapes up, I plan on alternating Stam and more Men. Again that's just my idea.

Exactly, whats left to fear once u have slain all ur enemies?(Diablo saying XD)

[mirouku]

you guys.......scare me.....almost as much as i scare myself.............so is agi the best or men??????i am such a noob...and by the way be nice to aco's, they have it so hard............:(:(

[talonmas]

Id pick men over agi any day. Then Id buy tons of pots (woot for all the weight we can carry!) and spam skills/pots all the way. More expensive, yes. More damage, yes. And I always go in a 2 or 3 man party with an Aco, so health isnt a problem. Hmm, but usually Im that Aco though... Should play my fighter more.

[arianmsani]

Squires only get fun at around lvl 35ish, go full POW until 50, then add till u have 15 men,then full POW till 66

[Aurican]

People and their pure builds...bad advice. If you're unsure of what to do, follow the stats at class change. Pow, Agi, and Sta work hand in hand to make a squire a weapon/tank. Men isn't as useful for squire as other classes. Squires don't have long att casting skills, they don't need standard crit because slash deals double standard damage. Agi gives you enough skill crit, amongst more Pow, dodge, att speed. In conclusion, Pow then split Agi/Sta. Throw in a few points of Men if you don't raise Agi, but precious points are being wasted.

[blackdice727]

People and their pure builds...bad advice. If you're unsure of what to do, follow the stats at class change. Pow, Agi, and Sta work hand in hand to make a squire a weapon/tank. Men isn't as useful for squire as other classes. Squires don't have long att casting skills, they don't need standard crit because slash deals double standard damage. Agi gives you enough skill crit, amongst more Pow, dodge, att speed. In conclusion, Pow then split Agi/Sta. Throw in a few points of Men if you don't raise Agi, but precious points are being wasted.

So.. you are saying that we should get Agi/Sta to 17 then the rest to pow right?

[Aurican]

Every 5th level raise Agi/Sta equally. It's actually better than raising one at a time I've seen. If you want Men, then decide how many points you want to put in every 5 levels, then split the rest with Agi/Sta giving Sta the odd amount. Agi really only needs to go to 17, until you can switch it to Pow/Sta or Pow, Sta/Men. Just make sure to divert points into Wis for burning. It's works great for any situation. I personally think Men is more useful at higher levels if at all..

[Lochlinn]

I am going to be perfectly honest here; as near as I can tell, going pure power seems to be the best way to do things. I am consistently outdamaged by pure power squires and it is they rather than I that can solo harder and harder monsters. I have a Lv 51 Squire with the following point breakdown, 35 Pow: 1 Int: 12 Agi: 7 Men: 11 Sta: 6 Wis.

So what if I have more men and can crit more often? They do more damage than me even when I'm not critting. Also, I noticed, crit does the most on normal attacks; a normal attack crit deals double damage whereas a skill crit adds much less. Skill crit for me usually worked this way; Slash lv 2 does 200 damage to given monster A, when I crit with Slash Lv 2 on given monster A, I deal 240 or 250 damage instead. Impressive, right? Pure power non crit Slash is around 300-350 every time. No crits, but, if a skill crit doesn't deal double damage, what is the point? Say that my crit could equal or even exceed a pure power squire; since I do not crit all the time or even most of the time, pure power still wins out on damage over time. And why crit normal attacks if they are not used, and said crit of normal attack would only do as much as Slash?

So what if I have more sta and more hp? 1 point of sta gives +10 max hp, which, in the grand scheme of things, is not very much at low levels. Because I deal much less damage than the pure power squire, I have to get hit more often to kill the same monster. I will have the same defense as a pure power squire of the same level as me with equivalent equipment, except his Slash hits for about 100+ damage more than mine every time so he kills much faster than I and therefore does not need the extra 100 or so hp that I will have, which just might let me solo one more monster as soloing monsters for squire means beating up the monster plus getting beat up in the process. And even that point is negotiable.

Spamming slash, I noticed, has a higher attack rate than monsters in the game by about twice as fast (i. e. you should be able to hit a monster twice w/ Slash for every one time it attacks you). So, the effect of doing much more damage is a good defense in and of itself as the pure power squire can kill so much faster and therefore take less damage since his damage piles on even faster than different squire builds.

So what if I have more agi? Honestly, I cannot even tell really that agi is affecting anything, perhaps much higher amounts than my 12 would effect more of a change. What use is increasing attack speed when all that squires do is spam Slash anyway? Also, I read that agi increases normal attack crit more often than skill crit, well, if that is the case, hooray! for increasing normal attack speed and normal attack critting chances when normal attack is never used anyway o.O (at least not at our current levels; I cannot give a definitive answer for high end level characters)

As near as I can tell, not going pure power (except for enough wis for blazing) is beginning to look like a mistake. Stats are too low pre lvl 66 for spreading them around to make much of a difference whereas a power squire makes a huge amount of difference for damage. Also, upon reaching Lv 66, Squires can reset their stats; indeed, you have to do so to become a Knight.

I am not advocating pure power the whole game through; some part of me holds out on the unspoken belief that at higher levels with more points to spread around and tougher monsters, the more balanced stat point fighter carries the day. But of course, I have no evidence of this as I have not reached said high level; it is merely supposition on my part. Also, when high level monsters with high damage ranged attacks come into play, there might be more of a balance, if you will. For example, it would be very difficult for Archers and Mages to solo a ranged monster that does lots of damage as the whole 'slowing and shooting strat' would not limit the monster's ability to counterattack. It would lend solo archers and mages perhaps a greater incentive for partying, but I digress.

What I am trying to point out instead is that perhaps a pure power Squire (of course having enough Wis for Blazing) all the way to Knight is perhaps the most effective way to go.

Many of us squires have theoretical models and estimations as to how the stats *should* work, but, my point is that perhaps at our levels, anything less than all power is not very effective. Perhaps at higher levels, which we will not see in Open Beta if the level cap is indeed Lv 79, what would be interesting to learn is if stats possess a cap. Whether a direct one (say, a certain stat could never exceed 255 points) or an indirect one, in a 'as the limit approaches zero' fashion. In this model, perhaps 1 Pow gives 1 whole extra damage unit (an arbitary fixed amount in a linear progression) until the stat total reaches a high amount, at which point, diminishing returns kick in; each point from now on gives .75 damage units rather than the 1 for 1 from earlier, and so on until 1 more Pow only gives .2 points. I am merely conjecturing these models in relative ignorance as I have neither high enough characters to attempt to reproduce these effects nor even a Knight at present to attempt to deduce them.

Lastly, if anyone knows for certain such things as whether stat gain is linear or how really high level stats interact, please rectify me. I am merely attempting to sort through all of the information about squires available and articulating my thought process so as to help others. Before I neglect to add this last bit, so far as I can tell, men does not increase skill speed nor does any stat give more defense, as that is solely the armor's job (and buffs too, such as Bless).

I stand ready to be flamed, praised, ignored, ridiculed, etc.

[Aurican]

At the end of the day it depends on what you want to do and how you fight. Solo, party, level grind, farm drops, or pvp.

If just want to level grind then stick to pure POW on white mobs. If you want to level grind and not rest often then POW/AGI on white mobs.

If you want to solo on tough maps and get decent drops and don't mind a slower level grind, then you want a Pow/Sta build. Sta gives 15 HP for squires just so you know. It's a big difference when you can't tackle a red, to being able to just handle one, and being able to handle 2-3 before resting. Sta allows you to tackle a tough mob w/o needing to wait several levels for all the other next tier EQ.

If you want a balanced character that can handle any task then Pow/Agi/Sta.

If you're in a party then you want at least a Pow/Sta build.

A party of 2 is ideal except on very high level maps and dungeons. This is where you can get away with Pure builds. To an extent anyway..

Pow provides the consistent damage. Agi provides dodge, for low level maps, SKILL crit for Slash! spamming, and att speed for those who like to alternate standard/skill. Though that's more effective at later levels WITH Men. Sta is what soaks all that extra damage you receive on tough mobs while you're waiting for that final piece of EQ to upgrade. But the tougher the mobs the higher the minimal damage will be so you can't neglect Sta for long.

A good test is to find a map right before you start seeing pinkish mobs. If you can handle at least 3+ of those before resting, you are doing fine. Find a second party member and then you will really level grind.

People will bottleneck going pure POW and waste precious points. The points you divert only add a few extra attacks on a mob your level. I can think of certain areas where pure POW can show it's worth. Like say mobs with High HP and low Pow, wink? wink?..

To sum it up, how you stat depends on where you grind and how you go about it because the goal is to make the most out of your character with what you do. Just ask yourself how you attack, what color mobs you like to attack, solo, party, and what maps you prefer. Then adjust accordingly..