When your kill is stolen and when it isn't

[Convent]

(This is me putting my normal header above long posts like "I was bored so I made this" or "my non-existent cat decided to chew up my computer and all the time I had left with my wonderful comp was to type this long post before it died". This time it's cuz it's not too late, I guess, and I'm bored with SoS on maintenence.)

I was thinking...

How exactly does anyone really know when it's a kills steal to be reported or not?

Recently I've been running into situations where I'm hesitant to try to "help" because they might "have it under control" when they don't, then I look like the bad guy. Or if I help and they have it under control, then I'm still the bad guy. >.< It's a vicious cycle that ends with me being the bad guy and apologizing.

So I decided to list out some things that I thought would make something a kill steal. Then I thought how many things would be conditional depending on the situation. So...here it goes.




Straightforward ksing=
--It's a KS if one person comes up to another person who isn't in their party and finishes off that person's monster while they're attacking it.
--It's a KS if you take an AoEer's monster.
--It's a KS if you prevent someone from being able to kill their monster and finish it later (arrest, stone edge) unless that person is being overwhelmed and it's apparent that the person being overwhelmed isn't going to get out of that tight situation anytime soon.




Conditional KSing=
--If the person is taking less than the general 1% average of their class's overall HP from any of the multiple monsters attacking them and you kill one of them, it's a KS (assuming that they either have it under control or they're aoeing)
--If the person is long ranged and they're being attacked by monsters but don't move and show no attempt at trying to save themselves for 5 or more seconds, your "help" is a KS. This is argueable because of lag issues. If anything, incapacitate the monster if you aren't sure, but try to do the least damage to it as possible.
--If the person says while in battle something along the lines of "I've got it under control" and you kill one of their monsters, it's a KS.
--If the person is kiting and you kill their monster, it's a KS.
--If the person is soloing and a party comes up and the mistake of one person causes the whole party to join forces against that soloer's monster, it's only a KS if they defeat that monster or show no signs of discontinuing their attacks unless they don't realize that it's not their party's monster (in that situation telling them "please don't KS" will clarify whether or not they knew, because they'll either say something rude or say sorry. In cases where the person and the entire party of people completely ignore you multiple times it's more of a KS.)
--If two people attack a monster at about the same time and the person who attacked second continues to attack the monster without yielding, it's a KS. To tell which person that monster belongs to as a close combat, you see who takes damage (that person is the first attacker), as a long ranged, the person the monster is running/walking/slithering to is the first attacker.
--If the person is AoEing in a Lair or other place/event where you don't lose exp and there are plenty of monsters, it's still a KS to attack one of the aoe's monsters, but not as much of an offense as ksing outside of events.




Not a KS=
--If you use any of the varius moves that slow down or otherwise incapacitate the monster in some way, shape, or form without preventing that person from being able to kill the monster, it's not a KS unless you use another move on that monster that isn't a following-up incapacitator such as any offensive move. The more damage you do to the monster, the closer to being "KSing" it'll be.
--If you take, incapacitate, or distract an attacking monster from a person who obviously can't handle being attacked by that many monters at once.
--If you don't attack another person's monster.
--If you catch an aggro that's coming toward a person while they're fighting another monster.
--If you're in a place where you don't lost exp when dying (such as event Lairs and mass player events), KSing doesn't apply as strongly because many people will be bound to KS, but the amount of monsters in the event is bountiful enough that the exp loss isn't that detrimental to the original attack's health.



Generally more polite to do these=
--If a person is kiting or otherwise long ranged and, while in the process of killing the original monster, an aggro comes up and attacks them into a position where they're forced to defend and kill that monster first before attacking their original monster again, it's generally more polite to leave that damaged monster alone and go on to another monster. *Breathes*
--If that kiting person's original monster regains it's hp fully it should be fine to kill it.

========================
Yeah, I can't think of anything more at the moment. Not sure how this thread is going to kick off, but I'd appreciate constructive criticism. If you know of another KS way that you think is good, post it and we'll see. ;]

((This is really a guide for the crazy people like me who will stand and watch a person fighting to make sure they're not going to die or make sure they have it under control. I'm so sick and tired of sitting around worrying about whether I should attack the monster or not, so hopefully this can help me and all of us.))

==========================

SOMEONE SHOOT ME IN THE BACK WITH MY BOW. Dx I SAID "WHEN YOUR KILL IS STOLE"!! WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?
.___. That is all. (And...I fixed it. =D )

[catry]

Yay Trente! :D Finally some definitions...just one thing to add, on maps where there is either no xp loss or where the spawns are ridiculously dense such as Blackheart Lair and spawn events like the Awakening, it's almost impossible to avoid ks'ing one person or another while trying to help. For things like these people really shouldn't take ks'ing seriously since 1) there's going to be at least 20 more monsters to take that 1 place and 2) the drops (and quite possibly the xp) are pretty much irrelevant.

[Convent]

Okies, I added it to the "Not a KS" list. ^^ I also added the AoEing in events one under conditional, cuz it's still a KS but not as bad as a Ks from an AoE party.

[Rapturity]

Some newbies dun know about aoeing.. But thanks to your KS def. : D

[kanoona]

wow u pretty much said it all

[ChristinaM]

Very nice post!! I hope it helps people understand what they may or may not be doing :) Thanks!!

[Lovesnuffles]

Hopefully all the newbs that join will read this so we don't have so much of a problem >w<

[baubo]

I mostly play my acolyte so I'm an expert in being ksed. If in doubt, freeze my mob, don't hit it. If I'm poisoned and being hit by 30 mobs, you can help. Otherwise, I can handle it. If you freeze my mob so I can kill it easier,:D I will be very grateful and give you buffs for as long as you're around. If you hit it:mad:, "bad, bad player - no buffs for you!!" My favorite example of chutspa (nerve) is the party that ks's my mob so I'll be done and buff them faster or join their party. Good luck with that!

Blessed Be, Baubo

[Serric]

Convent - excellent post (+ rep). I may move a copy of this over to the Fiesta folder.

[Convent]

Thankies everyone. ^^

Sorry for the late post, my mind is slipping and I'm forgetting about threads. @_@

[ZuttoNoTomodachi]

o.o I just thought I'd mention a problem I've run into....
When in a party with someone, and you're attacking the same monsters, and another player runs past and attacks a monster. If the player you're partied with is the same class as the non-party player, it's easy to confuse them in hectic fighting situations, which results in attacking another person's kill. >< I have done this, and I have had this done to me. No harm is intended, however, so I suppose it wouldn't be considered KS. Most of the time, the confusion can be cleared.

Just thought I'd mention it. o.o

-Falka-

[TRXSTA]

I have definitely been guilty of doing this before. ._. I believe some fault lies with the solo'er though, if he or she continues to follow the party around... I, of course, don't continue to do it on purpose. >_>;;

[Convent]

I'd say that usually if that happens you can say "Sorry if we ks, getting parties mixed up!" then both parties will understand. ^^ It's happened to me a lot too, especially when I'm soloing in a party-active spot, but everyone knows it's an honest mistake as long as you say it. xD

Except...there was once that a scout kept leaving out of his group/party and intentionally ksing me. -_- wouldn't talk to me when I told him not to though, THAT is KSing.

[Klothos]

((This is really a guide for the crazy people like me who will stand and watch a person fighting to make sure they're not going to die

One of my characters is an aco...I think its an aco's sworn destiny to do just that ^.^

[Convent]

.__. Maybe I'm born to be an aco.

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUN. xD

Meh, all classes are fun. ^^ (I tend to think I'm attacking when partying as an aco and moniter the monsters health instead of my party members'. >.<; So maybe not so much)

[DemKill9556]

go instance!!!! FTW wow ive had it happen to me

[Nights_Fang]

This is an excellent post. Kudos to you Trente. Now all we have to do is hope that the new players joining read this. (And also the people who tend to love k-sing acos, since they're the healing class >.<)

[davisf18]

--It's a KS if you take an AoEer's monster.


It is not KS if you steal an AoEr's monster~
Players are ranged for one monster at a time, if you have two+ monsters you and someone kills one that is not Kill Stealing~

Over all the post was very good and well thought out
good job!

[Khrim]

I have definitely been guilty of doing this before. ._. I believe some fault lies with the solo'er though, if he or she continues to follow the party around... I, of course, don't continue to do it on purpose. >_>;;

With such small maps it is easy to follow another party around without meaning to.


It is not KS if you steal an AoEr's monster~
Players are ranged for one monster at a time, if you have two+ monsters you and someone kills one that is not Kill Stealing~

Over all the post was very good and well thought out
good job!

>_> technically...killing an AOEr's monster IS kill-stealing. If the person cannot handle the second mob taking it is not kill-stealing.

[davisf18]

Let me rephrase myself:

If you are AoEing in an area you are attacking one monster at a time in order to "pull" a mob train behind you correct?
Well you attack one monster and then leave it to follow you, you are no longer fighting that monster so it isn't yours anymore~
You move right to the next monster and attack it which means that monster becomes your primary monster instead of the one you just hit that is now following you...
You then continue to attack other monsters in order to pull a large mob train behind you, which in fact don't belong to you, they are are simply Agro's (agressive monsters)~

[Khrim]

Let me rephrase myself:

If you are AoEing in an area you are attacking one monster at a time in order to "pull" a mob train behind you correct?
Well you attack one monster and then leave it to follow you, you are no longer fighting that monster so it isn't yours anymore~
You move right to the next monster and attack it which means that monster becomes your primary monster instead of the one you just hit that is now following you...
You then continue to attack other monsters in order to pull a large mob train behind you, which in fact don't belong to you, they are are simply Agro's (agressive monsters)~

Funny, I seem to run into different opinions on Fiesta and other 3D games where we can actually put 50 people to one map.

I warred somebody the other day on Fiesta because they attacked one of my AOE monsters (I was soloing a group of about 4-5 orcs) and yes, it is AOE since about 30% of the damage on them is done from just my AOE which has a 14 second cooldown. And my GM didn't even mind me warring them just to kill the brat because she said "If they're attacking a monster that you've claimed as yours then they're KSing"

And seeing how I used "Mock" to pull all 5 of them on me, that's pretty much claiming them. I'm supposed to let some little brat come alone once it's at 50% already and steal my kill? I think not.

So sorry -- but it is KSing when it's an AOErs mob DURING the kill but not during the PULL.

[catry]

I'd like to think that when you're pulling a monster and someone takes it, it's still a KS O.o

Mainly because when you're pulling it, it's still hitting you. Yes, it bonks you for 1s and 2s and misses, but you're still taking damage that eventually adds up to pots being used by either you or your healer. When someone whacks a mob you're pulling, chances are it's not going to break off immediately, but it's going to keep bonking you until it realizes someone's hitting it upside the head xD
The whole time, you're still taking damage. It seems unfair that you take all the hits just so someone else can grab a few points of xp you would've gotten otherwise O.o
(Not to mention that if it wasn't KS'ing, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with taking another AoE'rs mobs and that just opens an entirely new barrel of troubles xD)

[Convent]

O.o I feel like this thread got necroed.

Anyway...yes, it's still a KS if the monster is part of the AoE mob. If not then that means every time that I've heard and seen someone use their aoe to gather up someone elses mob and drive that original aoer crazy were completely valid.

Kit is right about the reasons that it's a KS. If it's not I'm going back to Edine to bramble every mob of monsters that everyone is AoEing and do what I thought was a delinquent's work cuz I know that I'd get annoying and kill many, MANY people. ;]

(kidding, btw)

[Khrim]

I'd like to think that when you're pulling a monster and someone takes it, it's still a KS O.o

Mainly because when you're pulling it, it's still hitting you. Yes, it bonks you for 1s and 2s and misses, but you're still taking damage that eventually adds up to pots being used by either you or your healer. When someone whacks a mob you're pulling, chances are it's not going to break off immediately, but it's going to keep bonking you until it realizes someone's hitting it upside the head xD
The whole time, you're still taking damage. It seems unfair that you take all the hits just so someone else can grab a few points of xp you would've gotten otherwise O.o
(Not to mention that if it wasn't KS'ing, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with taking another AoE'rs mobs and that just opens an entirely new barrel of troubles xD)
On fiesta I take more then 1s and 2s and if people KS a world boss (they are normally for quests) I normally war them because why am I wasting my time+effort so they can get the credit for killing the monster?

Just to be exact I take about 100-200 damage per orc when I AOE currently (that is without a shield on) but I have a 3k hp pool and I can use hp stone which return about 1k hp and then hp potions which return about 1.3k or so

I had Mara stolen from me 5 times in a row (I let myself lose aggro so mara would kill the other group) and I've had AOE monsters stolen from me much more then that. Needless to say that having people get exp for my work doesn't make me happy.

[kingofsages27108]

Well Trente what about people who are lvl 50+ attacking a guardiant that is almost dead and taking the drop from it that cost you about 100+hp is that or is that not a KS ??

[CyberPhoenixSlayer]

Impressive thread, excellent work, Trente!

Character names
CyberClyde: LV 8X Templar
CyberSlayer: LV 6X Knight

[Convent]

Kingofsages--That is DEFINATELY a ks. Did that happen to you? O.o

[kingofsages27108]

happened ... lemme see ... like 30+ times, and each time had a good drop -.-" ppl who ksd said wasnt a ks lmao prob cuz i did when guardiants were just new

[Convent]

Well, if you initiated a fight with the guardiant and they came and started killing it for you that's a KS. Doing that with any monster (unless it's in an event dungeon where the monsters spawn every 5 seconds and are all aggro, then it's kinda hectic and no one really cares unless you intentionally KS them 50 billion times) is a KS.

[Rain4ever]

Worse still..... so ppl when u say stop KSing, they will still KS until the mob is dead.... hppen to mi one case, that person somemore says that "i like it"....its really like ***!?

[Convent]

At least KSing is a reportable offense. If you can catch a screenie of them doing it then you've got your weapon, to an extent.

[Rodsession]

ehh two or three things to say...

1. nice job, a lot thinking :P

2. i know the feeling after getting confused and finishing a mob cause you thought a party member was killing it (it's hard to tell the difference between to chars who look the same) i always say i'm sorry, i got mixed up.

3. when i was more of a newbie and i saw a huge number of mobs moving behind a player, i said omg! i gotta help. everything i got in responde was '***?' or 'what are you doing?' i felt so bad that time because i obviously did not know what was going on. i just said 'i'm sorry i was trying to help' (and then cried, jk hehe), but i felt so bad that i you cannot imagine. nowadays my sweet pod (aka poderoso) is able to aoe and when this happens to me i remember that time and i just smile to myself and say 'ty for helping but im ok. im aoeing (when i manage to type hehe). if they don't know what aoeing they'll ask somebody about it and won't do it anymore. anyways, 0,04 of exp isn't a lot to say ***? and make someone (not a char) feel bad. :)

i've seen this rude attitude towards many uninformed players and seen them feeling really bad after it. 'what is this guy doing?' when you are just trying to help is not nice. all im saying is take some time to explain things to other players. we were all noobies at some point and somebody else, im sure, was kind enough to explain things. :P

4. trente if you see this on the chat esdfsdfwefwef it means i need help. hehe... there should be a code to ask for help when you can't type right cause you are too busy trying to survive. i have been in the situation: should i help? or are they ok? anyways, if u say i'm sorry, i didn't mean to ks, i think its enough for it not be ksing. well..unless you see king intentions, of course. (btw, one time i got mixed up 3 times and ksed 3 times from the same person, i think it was in loren, lots off ppl all looking the same... it was hard to believe but i had no intention to do so, i left the party after that)

5. if u see me aoeing and want to take a mob, its ok. jk. i want to say is that i wouldn't hurt a person for just taking 0,05 exp away from me *cries again*

6. maybe this is not the place to say thank you, but ill do it aynways. thank you to all the kind strangers out there who helped when i was in trouble and when i wan not in trouble. they were just trying to help im sure and all the ppl who care about other and make this game a cool place.

7. i guess i had seven things to say.

[dannlyn]

Weird situation. Was in a party with a jerk who pissed me off halfway while in the sewers hunting bats for Judy. Didn't break up the party since let's face it, we needed the firepower.

I was down to my final 2 when we chanced about some bats, but then the jerk and some guys passing by killed them (even tho I was doing substantially more damage than they are). Of course I was ticked off so I grumbled a bit about how those could have been my final 2. He made some snotty remark which prompted me to run off finding my own bat.

Found one and killed it when jerk appeared and said "That could have been my last!" which kinda contradicts what he'd said to me earlier. So I continued searching for my last, was killing it halfway when jerk appeared and KS'ed. Ran off. Finished quest. Left the sewers without a word.

I had to run around by myself for another 10 mins to find another one.

TOTALLY PISSED OFF.

And his idea of trying to break my ice (I was giving him an icy treatment after he pissed me off) was accusing me of "stealing" the money that dropped from a monster.

Ok, first of all how was THAT supposed to break the ice?

2nd of all we're in a party, all's fair.

3rd of all, it seemed apparent to me and other members that I didn't take it... HE did. IDIOT! IDIOT! MAJOR IDIOT!

[Oohforf]

just curious trente.
if a person is mobbing up a whole map and just single killing things.
he doesnt have the lvl for a aoe and still is taking whole map
will taking a monster from that be KS?

[Convent]

That is probably debatable. I'd say it's fine because they aren't doing anything but single-killing so it's not any different if they gather up mobs, but I'm pretty sure they'd argue back saying they took the time to gather up the monsters so the monsters are all theirs. And...the retort would be "it's rude to hog all the monsters of a map and halt out many people's training, especially if you're single-killing, which is something that you can do without gathering mobs"

Personally I believe people who do that are being really rude. =P Sorry that I can't give you a definite answer, this probably needs to be answered by a GM.

[TRXSTA]

Technically, it's a kill steal. It's still hitting them. But realistically, they wasted their time hogging the mob in the first place. Should be a non-issue anyway...

[Convent]

Which is why it's debateable. >.<;

What is a non-issue? .__.

[Nights_Fang]

Yeah it is a KS. Since in some other games I've played, if you killed a monster of someone else mob, even if they were single killing the mob, it was seen as a KS. So yeah.

[wildswing]

I would define it as KS'ing still but it really annoys me that people do that at Gurons when they don't even have an AoE skill. There's absolutely no reason for them to do so. In the time they round up 20 of them I've already killed more than that amount taking them down one by one. It's nothing but plain selfishness in my eyes. If there are several mobs near you, go ahead and aggro them, but NOT the entire map.

[Nights_Fang]

Yeah I agree map hogging in annoying whether it's AoE or plain mobbing.

[Convent]

It's understandable that it's a KS cuz they are technically mobbing to kill but there seriously isn't any point in doing so.

EDIT: Well, besides the fact that they can pretty much reserve a map full of monsters that drop a certain item. -_-

[Nights_Fang]

Yeah it does. It's annoying when they hog a whole map. But most who I've seen do it only take a tiny bunch and kill them, leaving most of the monsters aggros and non-agrros alike for others to hunt, before resting and gathering another tiny bunch. Hence why I say if they're not causing anyone an inconvenience why bother? Or take monsters off their mob?

[Oohforf]

well that was what i was thinking.
was killing single handing the gurons when this guy (wont mention the name)
started picking up the whole map.
i asked him "why are you taking whole map"
he answerd "well i can so i do what i want"
me:"well its selfish to do that to other players here"
him:"well if you touch its KS and i report you"

so angry that i became since i wouldnt be able to find a single guron for 10 minuts when he was collecting almost all i do think its kinda f%#¤d upp to be doing that.
i asked polite if he could even take 10 monsters at time after a time and he gave me a angry reply.

so what should you do if someone is doing this? isnt this a way to prevent ppl to play the game? and something that prevents ppl from playing shouldnt that be a banable thingy to? ;p

[TRXSTA]

@ Convent : It shouldn't even be an issue because they shouldn't be mobbing in the first place. It benefits them nothing.

@ Oohforf : If somebody does that to me while I'm farming, I wouldn't hesitate to grab one (or two or three). Take a screenie of a mobber with no aoe skill hogging the Gurons. Let him report me. -_-

[Convent]

TRX has a solution that is good assuming that whoever you're reporting your own screenie to understands the situation. Screenie-and-report is an attack/defense based on rules, so normal KSing would be reportable. But since they're gathering mobs, which technically means they're for them, and they're single-killing, which technically means those other monsters are the same as single-kill, there doesn't seem to be any definate answer in the chance it occurs. It just seems to be rather complicated to me.

By the way, most of what I'm saying isn't really directed at an issue of it happening all the time, just talking about those rare cases like Ellminor's where someone is doing it to farm items or something.

[Nights_Fang]

Question: Is map hogging an actual reportable offense?

[RogueHealer]

well that was what i was thinking.
was killing single handing the gurons when this guy (wont mention the name)
started picking up the whole map.
i asked him "why are you taking whole map"
he answerd "well i can so i do what i want"
me:"well its selfish to do that to other players here"
him:"well if you touch its KS and i report you"

so angry that i became since i wouldnt be able to find a single guron for 10 minuts when he was collecting almost all i do think its kinda f%#¤d upp to be doing that.
i asked polite if he could even take 10 monsters at time after a time and he gave me a angry reply.

so what should you do if someone is doing this? isnt this a way to prevent ppl to play the game? and something that prevents ppl from playing shouldnt that be a banable thingy to? ;p

this happened to my lvl 30 aco. i was grinding the gurons, been at it about an hour orso, in the same map was 2 other squires, a aco and a neo. 5 of us total. when a squire came thru with a train made of only gurons, 30 orso. I asked the squire not to take so many, since he couldnt aoe, and there where now 6 people huntin the gurons. his reply was that his defence allows him to mob, so no1 can stop him. after about 10 minutes of tryin to find 1 to pwn, i come across the other players, all of which are sitting in the SZ. when asked why they where sittin, they responded with "there are no mobs" at that time, the squire warped back into the SZ healed, and set off again to gather more.

I whispered the said squire, this time sayin that there are others wanting to pwn the mobs as well, he replied again i can mob, so i am. stop whispering me. This sent me over the top. I logged out of my aco, and into my lvl 40 squire.i i ran to the map, and whispered the squire again. I repeated my previous statment, that others wish to pwn the mobs as well. he told the new char the same as he told my aco.

once he said that i told the others that i would get the map back. i pulled the whole map, pigs, plants, gurons everything, i wasnt racist. when i found him at other end, he was killing one at a time. i whispered him again. and said that hes not the only one that can gather. he replied so what, i will still gather. i killed all the mobs, and used his trick, i warped to SZ and proceeded agian. this time i passed him. when that happened i switched to only gurons. leaving him the others. after that round he whispered me, and said that he wouldnt gather anymore. So the 6 of us shared the map from then on.

i know 2 wrongs dont make a right, but.... sometimes thats what it takes to get the message thru.

[thrakx]

i have come up with a theory to deal with the map hogs.

Now mind you this is a Theory so its by NO means tested or tried.

Soooo when you report some one for KS what do you do?

You take a pic of urself asking them to stop, and their response, right? And then make a 3-5 screenie series, explaining the progression of events to whoever you are reporting to right- Making sure to get all those expletives, and FUs and plain rudeness in the shot, thereby proving your point to whoever is getting said report. Is this how you do it? this is how I do it.

Now, consider this- What if you take all the time and effort to screenie this stuff and you get no actual response from the KSer? or a series of "sorries" and "oops wrong button i am noob sorries"
I mean sure you have now proved that some one has KSed you- but you havent by ANY means proved that they did it on purpose. Plus with them apoligising the whole time, it just looks like you are being a jerk to them. "Harassing" them if you will with your gradually more and more angry requests to stop KSing you.
This is a two way street isnt it?
With this tactic in your arsenal wouldnt it be just as easy to turn the tables on some one hogging a whole map? Making them seem like a jerk when you accidentally hit their mob- or even, God forbid, making THEM look like the KSer through screenie manipulation and leading the conversation in such a way as to make THEM look like They've stolen some of YOUR mobs.
Now of course I would never do that, but it occurs to one that it would probably work. Especially with the amount of noobs out there who dont visit forums, or know anything about reporting some one to a GM and that noise.
Anyway this is for you lower lvl map hog victems if you feel like trying it out let me know how it works out!

XD

PS I know this is pretty evil and underhanded, but then again, so is hogging a whole map to single kill so touche'.
Also I AM the original Evil leader of Xen so i kinda have to come up with this stuff from time to time.

[RogueHealer]

^.^ Devious, I like it :)

[Zeltar]

I don't quite understand the motivation to hog a map to single-kill mobs. Is there some advantage that i can't see?

the person would be taking damage the whole time, so either need to waste pots, or have an aco which will drain exp. and then they can't kill as fast as there are 20-50 mobs poking them. the only result is slower exp, increased pot costs, and less loot. seriously, it is very slow to kill mobs when there are 30+ mobs poking, that slows down all skill actions.

sure it means that the person does not need to move from mob to mob while killing, but then they need to spend that time collecting anyway. and it is actually good to have a little time between mobs, as it gives time for the cooldowns.

i can understand people collecting an unused map a couple of times with their noob alt just for fun and laughs. there is nothing like getting a little low lvl noob alt and having a bit of fun somewhere. but that is away from people, and normally only once or twice for laughs, not purposly where other people want to grind.

also at that lvl there are plenty of mobs on the map, if everyone is single killing, then there is a whole map full of mobs, and they all respawn instantly, so there could easily be 10+ people happily grinding on the same map. as soon as a mob dies it respawns somewhere. actually i like having more people on the map, as some of the mobs killed will respawn on the other side of the map, and instead of walking around the map, the other person might kill them, making the mob respawn again next to me. hence having someone else killing on the other side of a map actually speeds up the 1v1 mob killing by reducing the need to walk.

so can someone please enlighten me, what's the objective in map hogging when the person can only kill one at a time? i don't see any direct advantage, the ony outcome is being annoying to others on the map. and what's the point of that, being annoying just for fun?

[thrakx]

well i DO have to pay homage to the NOTK day some times those were good days that miight return again in a new and horrible way.

[stefito780]

Huh kinda seems stupid for me to spend time thinking of theories how to report someone(well i guess its normal for a Evil leader). Furthermore GMs have lots more important things to worrie about.
Be happy theres a lot of mob and the items wont disappear.

[RogueHealer]

I don't quite understand the motivation to hog a map to single-kill mobs. Is there some advantage that i can't see?

so can someone please enlighten me, what's the objective in map hogging when the person can only kill one at a time? i don't see any direct advantage, the ony outcome is being annoying to others on the map. and what's the point of that, being annoying just for fun?

Well i'll be the first to admitt that when i put my cloak of love, horror mask, and skill patch on my 30+ aco, i had a blast gathering mobs in FW country. I am able to gather all mobs but the flying pigs. Its kinda cool to see a aco Training. But... after 1-2 times training, realizing your point about slower skill casting, and increased pot use, i quickly went back to single killin.

Also about the 10+ people on same map. I agree and disagree at same time. That really depends on the map. For example the map for FW Farming. I forget name "hehe" but that map isnt really big enough to suport 10 people. but... a map like Rud, that map is huge. It suports a vast amount of people single killin. But... reguardless of the size of the map, gathering with no aoe is a waste of time, and kron. Or SC for that matter, which ever the case maybe!

[sofcellar]

(This is me putting my normal header above long posts like "I was bored so I made this" or "my non-existent cat decided to chew up my computer and all the time I had left with my wonderful comp was to type this long post before it died". This time it's cuz it's not too late, I guess, and I'm bored with SoS on maintenence.)

I was thinking...

How exactly does anyone really know when it's a kills steal to be reported or not?

Recently I've been running into situations where I'm hesitant to try to "help" because they might "have it under control" when they don't, then I look like the bad guy. Or if I help and they have it under control, then I'm still the bad guy. >.< It's a vicious cycle that ends with me being the bad guy and apologizing.

So I decided to list out some things that I thought would make something a kill steal. Then I thought how many things would be conditional depending on the situation. So...here it goes.




Straightforward ksing=
--It's a KS if one person comes up to another person who isn't in their party and finishes off that person's monster while they're attacking it.
--It's a KS if you take an AoEer's monster.
--It's a KS if you prevent someone from being able to kill their monster and finish it later (arrest, stone edge) unless that person is being overwhelmed and it's apparent that the person being overwhelmed isn't going to get out of that tight situation anytime soon.




Conditional KSing=
--If the person is taking less than the general 1% average of their class's overall HP from any of the multiple monsters attacking them and you kill one of them, it's a KS (assuming that they either have it under control or they're aoeing)
--If the person is long ranged and they're being attacked by monsters but don't move and show no attempt at trying to save themselves for 5 or more seconds, your "help" is a KS. This is argueable because of lag issues. If anything, incapacitate the monster if you aren't sure, but try to do the least damage to it as possible.
--If the person says while in battle something along the lines of "I've got it under control" and you kill one of their monsters, it's a KS.
--If the person is kiting and you kill their monster, it's a KS.
--If the person is soloing and a party comes up and the mistake of one person causes the whole party to join forces against that soloer's monster, it's only a KS if they defeat that monster or show no signs of discontinuing their attacks unless they don't realize that it's not their party's monster (in that situation telling them "please don't KS" will clarify whether or not they knew, because they'll either say something rude or say sorry. In cases where the person and the entire party of people completely ignore you multiple times it's more of a KS.)
--If two people attack a monster at about the same time and the person who attacked second continues to attack the monster without yielding, it's a KS. To tell which person that monster belongs to as a close combat, you see who takes damage (that person is the first attacker), as a long ranged, the person the monster is running/walking/slithering to is the first attacker.
--If the person is AoEing in a Lair or other place/event where you don't lose exp and there are plenty of monsters, it's still a KS to attack one of the aoe's monsters, but not as much of an offense as ksing outside of events.




Not a KS=
--If you use any of the varius moves that slow down or otherwise incapacitate the monster in some way, shape, or form without preventing that person from being able to kill the monster, it's not a KS unless you use another move on that monster that isn't a following-up incapacitator such as any offensive move. The more damage you do to the monster, the closer to being "KSing" it'll be.
--If you take, incapacitate, or distract an attacking monster from a person who obviously can't handle being attacked by that many monters at once.
--If you don't attack another person's monster.
--If you catch an aggro that's coming toward a person while they're fighting another monster.
--If you're in a place where you don't lost exp when dying (such as event Lairs and mass player events), KSing doesn't apply as strongly because many people will be bound to KS, but the amount of monsters in the event is bountiful enough that the exp loss isn't that detrimental to the original attack's health.



Generally more polite to do these=
--If a person is kiting or otherwise long ranged and, while in the process of killing the original monster, an aggro comes up and attacks them into a position where they're forced to defend and kill that monster first before attacking their original monster again, it's generally more polite to leave that damaged monster alone and go on to another monster. *Breathes*
--If that kiting person's original monster regains it's hp fully it should be fine to kill it.

========================
Yeah, I can't think of anything more at the moment. Not sure how this thread is going to kick off, but I'd appreciate constructive criticism. If you know of another KS way that you think is good, post it and we'll see. ;]

((This is really a guide for the crazy people like me who will stand and watch a person fighting to make sure they're not going to die or make sure they have it under control. I'm so sick and tired of sitting around worrying about whether I should attack the monster or not, so hopefully this can help me and all of us.))

==========================

SOMEONE SHOOT ME IN THE BACK WITH MY BOW. Dx I SAID "WHEN YOUR KILL IS STOLE"!! WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?
.___. That is all. (And...I fixed it. =D )

A rather long quote to explain what KS really is.... But most of this is incorrect. To sum up what KS actually is.

1. YOU HAVE KS'D IF U ATTACK A MONSTER THAT IS ALREADY BEING KILLED BY SOMEBODY ELSE OUTSIDE OF UR PARTY.

2. IF THE MONSTER'S HEALTH IS AT A FULL 100% THEN THAT IS NOT A KS!!!!!!!!! IF SOMEBODY IS USING AOE AND U ATTACK A MONSTER THAT STILL HAS FULL HEALTH THAT IS NOT A KS.

3. ALL MONSTERS ARE UP FOR GRABS UNTIL THEIR HEALTH DROPS LESS THAN 100%. IF SOMEBODY IS KITING, THE SAME APPLYS.

4. IF THE MONSTER'S HEALTH HAS DECREASED FROM THE RESULT OF KITING AND U ATTACK THAT MONSTER, THAT IS KS.

5. IF THE MONSTER HAS FULL HEALTH AND EVEN IF THE MONSTER IS BEING GATHERED BY SOMEBODY KITING, IT IS NOT KS FOR U TO ATTACK THAT MONSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

6. KS IS KS AND JUST BECAUSE IT IS OBVIOUS THAT SOMEBODY HAS MORE MOB THAN THEY CAN HANDLE DOES NOT JUSTIFY A KS. IF ANY MONSTER HAS LESS THAN 100% HEALTH AND U ATTACK THEN U HAVE KSD NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS IT MAY BE THAT A PERSON HAS MORE MOB THAN HE CAN HANDLE.

[Convent]

I don't see how my post is incorrect, I believe had written down everything you had written down and more in my post. I feel my post was also more detailed in the definition of getting KSed or KSing.

At least I know you know what a KS is. =] Mission accomplished.

[Eitaro]

How delightfully evil Thrakx. I think I might park my archer in guron country and "accidentally" Reticle Trap passing mobs of gurons for giggles. :D

And great post Trente. It's all common sense really. And even if people KS me I don't mind, as long as they don't get me or my party killed in the process. But I guess its more of an issue for aoers. Glad I don't have to deal with that :p

[sofcellar]

I don't see how my post is incorrect, I believe had written down everything you had written down and more in my post. I feel my post was also more detailed in the definition of getting KSed or KSing.

At least I know you know what a KS is. =] Mission accomplished.

I may have misinterpreted your original post and if I did I apologize to you for saying it was incorrect. It seems like there were several places that did agree to what KS is. I will go back and read it again. BTW - I would like to compliment u on the amount of time u spent to post your explanation. It shows your dedication and caring for the outspark gamers and community. EXCELLANT!!!!!!!!!

[Convent]

Don't worry. ^^ I read yours and we did pretty much say the same things. I just like being really dragged out and long since it looks cool. .__.;Concise versions are good for the on-the-go!

[thedarkmarauder]

I'm normally a friendly person by nature and like to help people when I see they are in trouble but, I've gotten sick of the KSing attitude around the server lately
I go help a player that is obviously taking way more damage than a person of their class can handle and is mobbed by agros to boot and then after words all I get from them is "You F***ING n00b!! What gives you the F***ing right to KS my monsters" and they say this while using mass potions to heal up from almost being dead
so it's not always the same phrase sometimes even ruder still but, the fact remains that I'm sick of people with such stupid attitudes towards being saved from dying
now I only step in when I see them dead and the monster is still there, just because if I try to help when I know they are going to do they are going to yell at me in some very rude way for KSing

[chris2pher]

There is something not seriously right about gathering multiple ememies at once because one thing there is not really the obvious right to conduct this method. For example, a person is heading to finish its quests and utterly wants to finish them constantly or quickly. Then this group of people with higher level accompanied assembling almost all monsters around the map which is that indeed almost all people can't find any monsters to catch and finish their quest in actual time. This method translates into radical selfishness of assembling monsters and conducting to own the all monsters in entire map and several people can't find any respawning monsters for like freaking an hour after they gather the monsters for about 7 mins and kill them all in hilarious 5 mins too. Does this several people in solo on quest has to wait for about 12 mins just to wait for another monsters to respawn. It is sort of very occupied for delaying the monsters to me and for other people in solo too just waiting to respawn them and this leads to be boredome for players and quits by this mere methods. Then how this game can be freely enjoyful with quest just because of those greedy freeloaders made other players to be sad and definitely bored.

[Convent]

That is, by some terms or another, the pre-mature AoEing that no one really likes at all. -_- I know it doesn't seem fair that those people gather up and single-kill mobs for items, but being that AoEing (where monsters are gathered up and all killed simultaneously with an AoE skill) was already established and considered to be "okay", and that a KS from those AoErs was established and considered to be "wrong", it's hard to say otherwise. The people who do that pre-mature AoEing will use that to their advantage, compare their situation to a normal AoEr (which they clearly aren't) and then drive that force against others who try to prove them otherwise.

[chris2pher]

I am referring to the group of amateurs(tankers?) with accompanied high level that gathering all monsters in the entire map and they kill those monsters one by one that takes disorderly minute in total of 7-12 mins. It doesn't seemed used by "AoE" skills. I know that "AoE" methods seems fine to be in most role-playing games because when monsters are insanely agressive should naturally protect itself by using their favorite AoE skills, but in despite matter, those in party who plucked and assembled all monsters in entire maps are kind of effrontery for monopolizing all monsters that profusely wasted some serious times for other fed-up players in solo with quest that can be revert to struggling and quitting the game eventually.

[Zeltar]

I think premature AOEing is not appropriate. sure it's fun to do once or twice on a empty map for something to break the boredom (i know it was a lot of fun to collect the first lvl mines on my nub scout). killing the mobs was a pain however as i had no reticule trap at lvl 45, and the mob pokes really slows you down.

but doing it for a way of grinding/farming is not appropriate, it slows down the killer, so they end out killing less mobs. so it has no advantage to the person collecting all and doing the 1 by 1 killing, actually disadvantaging them. hence it is only a scare tactic to scare people off a map that they want to farm. I think this conduct is inappropriate and should be avoided. IMO collecting a map is only acceptable if the person has a AOE skill (or doing it once on a unused map purely for laughs).

[Trashknight]

I was in one of those parties once, ~ lv 30 people btw, I told them there wasn't a point in doing it for effiency when my class(Squire) was the earliest one getting an AoE skill in the group. XD

Fun pulling a low level map, but no point in doing it beyond that.(One day... pulling the whole Trisects SC-less on my Xenian will make the day.)

[Tatsumiko]

my way of pre-mature mobbing:
mob a few (like 10 mobs, and i collect them from some part of the maps with no people) and go somewhere with people and tell them to take some if they want
then i procceed to kill what's left
sure it's like wasting time and money
but who says i can't do people some kindness?

[BellaAnimorum]

That is, by some terms or another, the pre-mature AoEing that no one really likes at all. -_- I know it doesn't seem fair that those people gather up and single-kill mobs for items, but being that AoEing (where monsters are gathered up and all killed simultaneously with an AoE skill) was already established and considered to be "okay", and that a KS from those AoErs was established and considered to be "wrong", it's hard to say otherwise. The people who do that pre-mature AoEing will use that to their advantage, compare their situation to a normal AoEr (which they clearly aren't) and then drive that force against others who try to prove them otherwise.


I am referring to the group of amateurs(tankers?) with accompanied high level that gathering all monsters in the entire map and they kill those monsters one by one that takes disorderly minute in total of 7-12 mins. It doesn't seemed used by "AoE" skills. I know that "AoE" methods seems fine to be in most role-playing games because when monsters are insanely agressive should naturally protect itself by using their favorite AoE skills, but in despite matter, those in party who plucked and assembled all monsters in entire maps are kind of effrontery for monopolizing all monsters that profusely wasted some serious times for other fed-up players in solo with quest that can be revert to struggling and quitting the game eventually.


I think premature AOEing is not appropriate. sure it's fun to do once or twice on a empty map for something to break the boredom (i know it was a lot of fun to collect the first lvl mines on my nub scout). killing the mobs was a pain however as i had no reticule trap at lvl 45, and the mob pokes really slows you down.

but doing it for a way of grinding/farming is not appropriate, it slows down the killer, so they end out killing less mobs. so it has no advantage to the person collecting all and doing the 1 by 1 killing, actually disadvantaging them. hence it is only a scare tactic to scare people off a map that they want to farm. I think this conduct is inappropriate and should be avoided. IMO collecting a map is only acceptable if the person has a AOE skill (or doing it once on a unused map purely for laughs).

Here's my solution:

I see a low-level player gathering mobs on a map (who is obviously too low of a level to aoe) and stand and watch for a moment.
If that person continues to collect without killing, I simply take one of the mobs and kill it.
Sure, I've had many responses like "***!" or "**** u noob! dont ks me!!" but I either ignore them, or tell them thus:
"I hate mobbers with no AoE." To date I have yet to be reprimanded for this.
Also, every time I pass the person in question I help myself to another delicious monster.
All I have to say to you people who feel "unjustly kill-stealed" is GET A CLUE. No one is going to defend your noob-like actions.
But in reality, if they do not have an AoE, then they have NO RIGHT to collect multiple mobs, as the purpose of collecting multiple mobs is so that one can kill them all at once to save time and potions.

No AoE = No KS.

P.S. - (only matters when someone of low level collects multiple mobs, not grind killing, so please do not try to say that I stand for objective kill-stealing, thank you.)

^.^

EDIT: Spelling and punctuation.

[Convent]

*claps* =D Sounds good to me!

[ngky99]

this explains me alot. like i tried to help someone who were followed by lots of monsters and that guy told me to stop helping. Now, i know what AOE means!

lol.

[kingzamzom]

Thanks for the KS guide, Convent and all of you guys.

Now I need someone to explain to me that: when you see someone "running", (I don't know if he is aoeing or running for his life, rofl). Eventually, it turns out that he was running for his life (Dropping all mobs <_<). And well !!, then all the mobs attack me! T_T. What shall we call it? being (MDed) "Mob Droped" or what?

[Trashknight]

LoC?(Loss of Control)

Pandemonium, Jumanjii or just mobdump?(Since the person didn't go Invisble or similar)

As it doesn't fit the bill for a 'mobtrain', since it wasn't intentional.

[tazsbigtoy]

I wish there was a consensus on this as I have been told that hitting a mob taken by one of these premature aoers is ksing and I can be reported for it. I have been told that if the mob has been hit once to gather it it is theirs. Someone gathered a map on a friend of mine about a week ago, she pm'd me and asked if he could do that. I asked if he had an aoe skill and she said no, so I said she could kill part of his mob and it would not be ksing. She then asked Dillon who told her it was ksing if she hit his mob.

[0GetsugaTenshou0]

Here's one I need Cleared up. Recently I have noticed a rash of AOE rude behavior. ALWAYS before I AOE a map I shout to see if there are AOErs present. If there are(less than 2), I politely ask if they mind Sharing the map. If they mind, I go somewhere else. What I have noticed lately is that alot of people aren't doing this anymore. They just come in and start AOEing. Not so much as a "How do you do?"Is it okay to KS the mob of a rude, non shouting, inconsiderate AOEr?

[tazsbigtoy]

No I don't think rudeness justifies ksing. Also the shouting and stuff while polite and generally appreciated isn't actually required. Just as you don't have to leave a map because it is already being aoed, they don't have to shout and ask.

[holli_hobbi]

I think something should be added... AOE'ers should SKIP the monsters in the immediate vicinity of another party. At least move off screen before grabbing more monsters. After all, we try to stay out of YOUR way.

[BellaAnimorum]

Way to go necroing a thread made last year...

Look guys, the simple fact is that if someone does not have an AOE skill, then they cannot claim they are being kill-stealed when gathering large numbers of monsters.

It is unfair and rude of them in the first place to be gathering all the monsters (which 99% of the time is for farming purposes) in a specific map, and takes up way too much of everyone's time.

Heck, if it was OK to do such a noobish action, then we should all just go to the maps with ten thousand pots and stand around HOLDING the mobs for several hours. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that aginst the TOS?

To aggressively go after a mobtrain that a low level has gathered IS wrong to do, but to partake of a few monsters every now and then, especially if that loser player has yet to kill any or all of them, is perfectly acceptable, since they are ruining the game for other players who may wish to complete the same objectives.

Then again, I'm not anyone special with insider information, just been around a while!

^.^

[holli_hobbi]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't see the point of mobbing without an AOE skill.

[az0ra]

yes that is right on man!!!!! could not have said it better myself.love it keep it up

[poochyenarulez]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't see the point of mobbing without an AOE skill.

but mobbing is fun
*looks at sig*