NOVA & INFERNO crits?

[Fubas]

hey! i just heard the rumor that those aoe skills never crit.. is it true?

[IcyPhoenix]

lies - nova and inferno can crit come to roumen pvp1 in bijou and i'll show u =)

[Fubas]

nice =) and when they crit, they crit the 3 times?or just one..

[IcyPhoenix]

...crit is always 2x

[lifeofbuddha]

Oh o.O I was almost regretting my INT/SPR build due to someone saying that the higher AoE don't crit but... if they do... then can a pure INT really be better than a hybrid?

[IcyPhoenix]

pure int is never better then hybraid once you do the maths.

[lifeofbuddha]

What exactly are the maths?

I'm not going to include equips since an INT mage can equip equally well as a SPR mage.

25 spirit means that you get a 5% better crit rate than a pure int mage. Plausibility then says that you'll land a critical hit 1/20 hits. Since a critical hit is double the damage a normal hit deals, you could say that statistically in 20 hits the hybrid mage actually lands 21 hits.

That means that in order for an INT mage to be more powerful...

Hybrid Mage Damage < (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage)*20

Which is to say that the difference between the INT Mage's Damage and Hybrid Mage's Damage within 20 hits must be greater than a Hybrid Mage's Damage (a.k.a. the additional damage that a critical hit does).

I'm not sure how complex the damage formula is for Fiesta, I feel very reluctant to just assume it's Magic Attack - Magic Defense. But since I really can't get any further without making that assumption let's continue the calculations based on that.

The pure INT mage of course put those 25 points in INT, giving them a bonus of 5 points leaving them at 30 extra Magic Damage, and that's also the difference between the two mage's Damage (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage), leaving us at 600. So basically if a Hybrid Mage's Damage is higher than 600, and we assume the damage formula is rather basic, the Hybrid Mage is to prefer over the INT mage.

EDIT: That's the theoretical side of it. You'll have to consider many other different things still. Like you'll hit some monsters for over 600 and some under 600. Or that an INT mage might've killed exactly killed a monster before it reaches them whereas a hybrid has to rely on crits. When equips come into play, the Hybrid already has a nice 5% base crit chance to stand on while the INT will have to start from scratch.

[KireiYosei]

They don't have crits, they have damage ranges. Mine does between 400ish and 1300ish.

[mhaba]

Pheonix is right. Nova and Inferno do crit just like any other skill, each hit on each mob has a chance to crit just like any other skill you use. This means that you could be attacking 5 mobs and on 2 you might crit while the others will be non-crit.

And like pheonix said crit is 2x just like any other skill.

[IcyPhoenix]

What exactly are the maths?

I'm not going to include equips since an INT mage can equip equally well as a SPR mage.

25 spirit means that you get a 5% better crit rate than a pure int mage. Plausibility then says that you'll land a critical hit 1/20 hits. Since a critical hit is double the damage a normal hit deals, you could say that statistically in 20 hits the hybrid mage actually lands 21 hits.

That means that in order for an INT mage to be more powerful...

Hybrid Mage Damage < (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage)*20

Which is to say that the difference between the INT Mage's Damage and Hybrid Mage's Damage within 20 hits must be greater than a Hybrid Mage's Damage (a.k.a. the additional damage that a critical hit does).

I'm not sure how complex the damage formula is for Fiesta, I feel very reluctant to just assume it's Magic Attack - Magic Defense. But since I really can't get any further without making that assumption let's continue the calculations based on that.

The pure INT mage of course put those 25 points in INT, giving them a bonus of 5 points leaving them at 30 extra Magic Damage, and that's also the difference between the two mage's Damage (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage), leaving us at 600. So basically if a Hybrid Mage's Damage is higher than 600, and we assume the damage formula is rather basic, the Hybrid Mage is to prefer over the INT mage.

EDIT: That's the theoretical side of it. You'll have to consider many other different things still. Like you'll hit some monsters for over 600 and some under 600. Or that an INT mage might've killed exactly killed a monster before it reaches them whereas a hybrid has to rely on crits. When equips come into play, the Hybrid already has a nice 5% base crit chance to stand on while the INT will have to start from scratch.

ahh sorry i meant DPS - not single burst attack.

Crit = casting the spell twice with no roll of the dice - dmg is dealt x 2 - this elminates cast time cast duration cast animation baskswing etc.. thats why i say the critical version compared to where as 25 spr is shifted to int = 30 bonus pure dmg is far better off in a 500~600 dmg range

ps. Yosei cast nova on the same mob around 50times , you'll probably notice that the damage dealt ie/ 500, is usually constant for alot of them - then you'll notice one that deals 1k+, this is the critical one - but u'll never see a 750dmg which isn't the 2x of your base dmg.

[KireiYosei]

I still don't think its crits, because they do about the same damage everytime...either I coincidently crit every time or I do a lot of damage and never crit.

And anyways, their crit system has the animation. Magic Burst has animation for its crits. Archer aoe poison doesn't have crits.

[IcyPhoenix]

na the animation can't exist due to everyone seeing the dmg - and just test it =)

[enumasam]

with almost a 40% crit rate I have never seen Frost Nova crit ONCE....the Crit damage usually comes from the magic burst that I do right afterwards...;i

[donkster]

What exactly are the maths?

I'm not going to include equips since an INT mage can equip equally well as a SPR mage.

25 spirit means that you get a 5% better crit rate than a pure int mage. Plausibility then says that you'll land a critical hit 1/20 hits. Since a critical hit is double the damage a normal hit deals, you could say that statistically in 20 hits the hybrid mage actually lands 21 hits.

That means that in order for an INT mage to be more powerful...

Hybrid Mage Damage < (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage)*20

Which is to say that the difference between the INT Mage's Damage and Hybrid Mage's Damage within 20 hits must be greater than a Hybrid Mage's Damage (a.k.a. the additional damage that a critical hit does).

I'm not sure how complex the damage formula is for Fiesta, I feel very reluctant to just assume it's Magic Attack - Magic Defense. But since I really can't get any further without making that assumption let's continue the calculations based on that.

The pure INT mage of course put those 25 points in INT, giving them a bonus of 5 points leaving them at 30 extra Magic Damage, and that's also the difference between the two mage's Damage (INT Mage Damage - Hybrid Mage Damage), leaving us at 600. So basically if a Hybrid Mage's Damage is higher than 600, and we assume the damage formula is rather basic, the Hybrid Mage is to prefer over the INT mage.

EDIT: That's the theoretical side of it. You'll have to consider many other different things still. Like you'll hit some monsters for over 600 and some under 600. Or that an INT mage might've killed exactly killed a monster before it reaches them whereas a hybrid has to rely on crits. When equips come into play, the Hybrid already has a nice 5% base crit chance to stand on while the INT will have to start from scratch.


well I don't really see the point in having spr. I'm pure int except for 2 on spr, but thanks to it I seem to hit a crit every 3 hits no matter the spell. If I had more spr, I would hit more crit, then i would lagg out lol.

[KireiYosei]

na the animation can't exist due to everyone seeing the dmg - and just test it =)

Every time I cast nova and inferno, I do 1100+ damage atleast once, every time, then the rest of the ticks are between 400 and 600. I still think thats far too frequent for crits. Oh well, maybe my crit rate is higher than I think.

[phanthunderrage]

Every time I cast nova and inferno, I do 1100+ damage atleast once, every time, then the rest of the ticks are between 400 and 600. I still think thats far too frequent for crits. Oh well, maybe my crit rate is higher than I think.

U see it too frequent cuz u hit more than one mob at once, and each mob has it own crit rate.
Nova and Inferno do have crit, it just doesnt show the crit animation.

[Takerial]

well let's look at it this way.

a full int mage versus a hybrid mage.

a hybrid mage like you said, gets 5% additional crit versus 30 extra magic damage. Where the full int gets the 30 extra magic damage.

Which is better?

A full int mage works better at lower levels where you magic damage is the lowest and each little bit helps.

A hybrid mage picks up as you get higher in the levels. At around lvl 50 most mages will be about even with each other with this build. But as you started going beyond that hybrid mages work better at the higher levels because now mages have high levels of magic damage in comparison and the 30 extra damage gets dwarfed and less useful than the increase crit rate.

[lifeofbuddha]

ahh sorry i meant DPS - not single burst attack.

Crit = casting the spell twice with no roll of the dice - dmg is dealt x 2 - this elminates cast time cast duration cast animation baskswing etc.. thats why i say the critical version compared to where as 25 spr is shifted to int = 30 bonus pure dmg is far better off in a 500~600 dmg range

Oh don't worry, that is a general formula for all attacks, single bolt or AoE spells, since the formula is based off the stat Spirit which effect the critical rate on all spells.


well I don't really see the point in having spr. I'm pure int except for 2 on spr, but thanks to it I seem to hit a crit every 3 hits no matter the spell. If I had more spr, I would hit more crit, then i would lagg out lol.

First of all those 2 spirit points don’t give you any crit bonus. If you actually get 1/3 critical hits, you should have a spirit of 165 which you acquire from equips and levelling. Maybe not 165 exactly since you get additional criticals from wands, earrings, etc.

I should try explaining it a little better, sorry I’m kind of bad at explaining. I’ll try to clear it up. Let's stick to
HM(D) = Hybrid Mage (Damage)
IM(D) = Int Mage (Damage)

* HM gets 5% more criticals than an IM
* 5% means that in 1/20 hits, statistically you should get one critical hit if you're a HM.
* A critical hit is double the damage, so in 20 hits, you could say that the HM actually deals 21 hits. Meanings that in the same amount of time, the HM deals one more hit than the IM.
* The IM then "only" attacks 20 times instead of 21. To compensate, it must deal more damage in 20 turns, than a HM does in 21 turns.
* The difference then is 1 hit. The damage the IM must compensate, is 1 hit from the HM (which is to say, the extra damage that a critical hit does).
* The IM can make up this damage by dealing more damage each turn, and after 20 turns summing up all the additional damage it did.

Conclusion so far: HM will statistically do critical hits 1/20 turns. This basically means that the HM will deal “one more hit”, statistically, within 20 hits. In order for an IM to compensate, it must within those 20 hits deal more damage than a HM does in 21 hits. So how much more damage per hit does a IM do than a HM?

The answer lies in this information:

* The IM puts the 25 points the HM put in spirit, into INT. Since each 5 INT points give you one additional magic damage, the IM will deal 30 more damage per hit than a HM.

That means that in 20 hits, the IM deals 30 more damage per hit than the HM. That means it deals a total of 600 damage in 20 hits. When you then look at this formula

HMD < (IMD – HMD)*20

It says that in order for a IM to be more powerful than a HMD, (IMD – HMD)*20 must be higher than the HMD. This means that as soon as HMD surpasses 600, it’ll be more beneficial to use it than an IM.


A hybrid mage picks up as you get higher in the levels. At around lvl 50 most mages will be about even with each other with this build. But as you started going beyond that hybrid mages work better at the higher levels because now mages have high levels of magic damage in comparison and the 30 extra damage gets dwarfed and less useful than the increase crit rate.

Just like Takeriel says it is; and it’s because (IMD – HMD)*20 is a fixed number. When a HM starts dealing more than 600 damage it’ll be more beneficial to have a HM.

The question that remains is, is 25 spirit optimal? The formula is basically just made to compare IMs and HMs, but it just as well states that 50 spirit mages do better than IM when they do 300 damage.

[DemonEyeKyo]

lol yeah frost nova n inferno crit... u havent notice cause 1 no crit animation... or 2 ... ur blind :P

[amshinigami]

yup they crit.. if u wana see em just take a look at the dmg, yosei did 1100 dmg at least once, thats her nova crit, the rest are just plain =)