Don’t be a clone

[Zeltar]

There are too many clones. So many people are copying the pure AGI build with POW for shields (some people are doing other things, eg using some MEN).

Yes I know in the past I said it was the optimum, but you are all individuals, and everyone should make whatever build they like, be it optimum or not.

There was originally many different builds in the game, with people doing a mixture of POW, AGI, STA, MEN (some pure of one stat, some with ratios, some theory’s of starting with one and then adding a different at a certain level). Everyone had their own way of doing it, and it was fun to figure out what build to use, and compare the differences in PvP. This gives the game a lot of variety.

I did a lot of research back in November 2007 in closed beta to calculate the optimum mix of stat points: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23684,
And in January concluded that Pure AGI with strength for shields was the optimum:
http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29709&page=7, http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=331116#post331116

At that time people were using all sorts of builds (yes, there were many pure AGI then, but also a lot of other variety, no clear consensus in the forums, and endless discussions about the topic). But since then this information about pure AGI has been spread, and become common knowledge.

Now this information is nearly religiously passed down to any new starting neophyte (check any thread on builds). I know I have countless times advised people on that build, and many other people have also been advising others on that build. I know many times people have come up with other build suggestions only to be instantly told by the community that they must go pure AGI

I only get the feeling that everyone is turning into a clone (I know there are exceptions), and if everyone is the same then there is no difference between people, and it takes one aspect away from the game. in a way I am half regretting showing the calculations, and my analysis on which build is best.

I would like to see all sorts of builds, theoretically optimum or sub-optimum, so we can see how they work in practice. It would add more variety to the game. Who knows, maybe someone will come up with a pure INT build for rogue, and unexpectedly pwn in PvP.… or maybe not, but there is always a rebirth card.

So from now on, I will not advise anyone to go pure AGI; do whatever you want, and see what happens. Try something different, and then you never know, it could end our working out better, worse, or just different.
Who cares, at least then everyone is different, and we will see some differences between the individuals.

So please no more clones, ignore all my calculations on the optimum build, ignore what everyone tells you to do in the forums. think for yourself and do whatever build you feel like doing. nobody has the right to tell anyone what to do. It's your charactur and you are free to do what you want.

Let’s have some variety in the game. :D

[catry]

I've been using pure AGI since I started, when everyone was saying how awesome having 10 MEN or POW was >>

So I'm the original! :D There, I claimed it, now noone else can 8D

[DiforceX]

i always use my own builds
its boring to stat 08/15 agi and pure agi sucksfor me
i like more wis for my rogue and yes it makes me weaker but it makes more fun for me personally
maybe i am much weaker but i don't care about it

[Tea_Fan]

Well, I semi-agree. O_o;

On the other hand, for those of us who cannot afford or get Spark Cash, we have to be careful with our builds. ._.; A mistake is everlasting.

This is the main reason I went pure AGI. If I mess up or decide to experiment with other builds, I can't go back if I find them lacking.

Not enough time to experiment with alternative Rogue builds, neither. ._.;

So... I encourage others to experiment! So that those of us who wish to follow a build will have many to choose from. :)

[itoast26]

well im thinking of adding some sta for my rogue when pvp comes.. more HP=more durable when pvping.. and probably adjust some stats when the balancing is done or when SOS is officially opened..

[Yoruko]

The point of a discussion forum is to learn from the experiences of others. Much like how everyone on earth doesn't repeat every scientific experiment since the beginning of man kind many people come to a discussion board to learn about things others have tried and either found effective or failed at. It doesn't make you a clone to do something that has been proven effective, that's to me an insult to someone's intelligence. The results of an experiment arn't going to change if it's repeated, so why is it so bad when someone shows the results and other follow because it works.

Another great example, how many of you actually go out and experiment and build your own car? I bet none, or VERY few, you go to the car dealership and buy the results of someone else's experiments, guess you're all clones too. The point is many people just want to play the game and have fun, they don't want to spend lots of money testing all kinds of stat builds that have already been done before. It doesn't make them less of a player or anything, they just don't see the point is repeating an experiment that's already been done before.

These types of threads have been showing up all to often in MMOs recently and it really rubs me the wrong way. It comes off very elitist and arrogant, and snobby. It's like I'm better than you cause I experiment and you're just some mindless robot. It doesn't make a person mindless to learn from the experiences of others, in fact it makes them really smart. If everyone has to repeat every discovery ever made progress will slow to a halt because you won't have time to do anything else. Most progress in anything is made when someone takes one person's experimental results and then carries it a step farther. Some people are truely mindless in this game sure, but researching a build that works and using it doesn't make you mindless or less of a player.

[rukus999]

a very far answer for a rouge build in SoS, yet scientific and precise. lol

[ootyroo]

The point of a discussion forum is to learn from the experiences of others. Much like how everyone on earth doesn't repeat every scientific experiment since the beginning of man kind many people come to a discussion board to learn about things others have tried and either found effective or failed at. It doesn't make you a clone to do something that has been proven effective, that's to me an insult to someone's intelligence. The results of an experiment arn't going to change if it's repeated, so why is it so bad when someone shows the results and other follow because it works.

Another great example, how many of you actually go out and experiment and build your own car? I bet none, or VERY few, you go to the car dealership and buy the results of someone else's experiments, guess you're all clones too. The point is many people just want to play the game and have fun, they don't want to spend lots of money testing all kinds of stat builds that have already been done before. It doesn't make them less of a player or anything, they just don't see the point is repeating an experiment that's already been done before.

These types of threads have been showing up all to often in MMOs recently and it really rubs me the wrong way. It comes off very elitist and arrogant, and snobby. It's like I'm better than you cause I experiment and you're just some mindless robot. It doesn't make a person mindless to learn from the experiences of others, in fact it makes them really smart. If everyone has to repeat every discovery ever made progress will slow to a halt because you won't have time to do anything else. Most progress in anything is made when someone takes one person's experimental results and then carries it a step farther. Some people are truely mindless in this game sure, but researching a build that works and using it doesn't make you mindless or less of a player.


nothing personal but i couldnt agree more with this statement
like you have the right to judge others because they are using "your" idea lol

sorry but im sure yet again my opinion will leave a sour taste in your mouths
im not looking to please just giving my "two cents"
~.^

[pureshok]

There are too many clones. So many people are copying the pure AGI build with POW for shields (some people are doing other things, eg using some MEN).

Yes I know in the past I said it was the optimum, but you are all individuals, and everyone should make whatever build they like, be it optimum or not.

There was originally many different builds in the game, with people doing a mixture of POW, AGI, STA, MEN (some pure of one stat, some with ratios, some theory’s of starting with one and then adding a different at a certain level). Everyone had their own way of doing it, and it was fun to figure out what build to use, and compare the differences in PvP. This gives the game a lot of variety.

I did a lot of research back in November 2007 in closed beta to calculate the optimum mix of stat points: http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23684,
And in January concluded that Pure AGI with strength for shields was the optimum:
http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29709&page=7, http://www.outspark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=331116#post331116

At that time people were using all sorts of builds (yes, there were many pure AGI then, but also a lot of other variety, no clear consensus in the forums, and endless discussions about the topic). But since then this information about pure AGI has been spread, and become common knowledge.

Now this information is nearly religiously passed down to any new starting neophyte (check any thread on builds). I know I have countless times advised people on that build, and many other people have also been advising others on that build. I know many times people have come up with other build suggestions only to be instantly told by the community that they must go pure AGI

I only get the feeling that everyone is turning into a clone (I know there are exceptions), and if everyone is the same then there is no difference between people, and it takes one aspect away from the game. in a way I am half regretting showing the calculations, and my analysis on which build is best.

I would like to see all sorts of builds, theoretically optimum or sub-optimum, so we can see how they work in practice. It would add more variety to the game. Who knows, maybe someone will come up with a pure INT build for rogue, and unexpectedly pwn in PvP.… or maybe not, but there is always a rebirth card.

So from now on, I will not advise anyone to go pure AGI; do whatever you want, and see what happens. Try something different, and then you never know, it could end our working out better, worse, or just different.
Who cares, at least then everyone is different, and we will see some differences between the individuals.

So please no more clones, ignore all my calculations on the optimum build, ignore what everyone tells you to do in the forums. think for yourself and do whatever build you feel like doing. nobody has the right to tell anyone what to do. It's your charactur and you are free to do what you want.

Let’s have some variety in the game. :D

lol yea right if you don't want so many clones go make "unique" rogue yourself and suck as much as you want to. What kinda retard would purposely choose a weaker build?

[Tea_Fan]

lol yea right if you don't want so many clones go make "unique" rogue yourself and suck as much as you want to. What kinda retard would purposely choose a weaker build?

I'm sorry to say this here, but you really shouldn't flame someone for expressing their own opinion.

I believe sijar was just suggesting that more folk experiment with new builds rather than being stuck in the endless pure AGI w/ POW for shield build. At the same time, I think Yoruko had some very valid points as well about the limitations of such a thing happening.

I, myself, don't have the time nor energy to experiment with alternative builds, but if someone does - kudos to them for the valuable input they're sure to bring, even if it IS a weaker build.

They're not 'retarded', as you so elegantly phrased it.

They're our pioneers.

Anyways, next time you post, try to have a point in what you're saying, please.

[Yoruko]

I'm sorry to say this here, but you really shouldn't flame someone for expressing their own opinion.

I believe sijar was just suggesting that more folk experiment with new builds rather than being stuck in the endless pure AGI w/ POW for shield build. At the same time, I think Yoruko had some very valid points as well about the limitations of such a thing happening.

I, myself, don't have the time nor energy to experiment with alternative builds, but if someone does - kudos to them for the valuable input they're sure to bring, even if it IS a weaker build.

They're not 'retarded', as you so elegantly phrased it.

They're our pioneers.

Anyways, next time you post, try to have a point in what you're saying, please.

Although poorly expressed pureshok does make a good point. The original poster is essentially taking the best build, claiming it as his own and saying no one else can use it. The thing is even if everyone in the game experiments with stats, the vast majority, and really nearly every one, is going to come to the conclusion that this is the build they need to be using. Whether a person experiments or just reads what someone else says the majority are still going to be using the best build.

The real point though, you have the thread starter who is the one concerned with originality and telling everyone else to go experiment and not use the "best" build. Well how about you go experiment and use a likely lesser build in the name of originality.

I'm not against anyone who wants to experiment, but you do have to understand it's limitations.

[Kendrah]

Well, I experimented A LOT. xD And have still come to the conclusion that pure Agi is best. I see no reason why those who just go pure Agi are any less original that anyone else.

My experients went as thus:

I started out as pure Pow, changed to pure Agi. I noticed the difference immediately. After that, I chanced to half Agi and half Men, and noticed some difference but mostly the weaker attacks. So I changed again and went 10 Men, rest Agi. About the same speed as the previous but higher attack. Finally, having gotten another reset through the LB, I went back to full Agi.

My attacks are stronger and just about as fast as they were with Men. There. *_* That was my moneys worth of experiments. Hahah.

[MORE1r]

ths s wat i think-....
men=more critics lower atttack
agi=higher attack higher dodge medium critics
pow= LOWER ATTACK NO CRITICS


ROGUES FTW !!!
MOREONER lvl 90+ rogue
X X X X X X X X lvl 16+ squire
exxthreeper xenian

[KawaiiPhoenix]

Well, about the clone thingy, hmm, they are just builds, meh, u can choose what u want, right? A clone would be someone who completely copies u, dress likes u, talks like u, and that would be annoying.

Anyway, I'm not a clone ¬¬

I have some sta for pvps, ermm, lot of agi, but quite some men and im starting to invest on it.

BTW, i dun think theres gonna be some point in reducing ur speed cause its bugged and even if they fixed it, u have top 0.01sc. Erhmm, I havent even seen that in Xenepic, and if ur gonna use Double Strike, being it a skill, i think MEN will help, reduces ur skill speed. And getting the buff from easter really show me that MEN its just not a stupid thing to invest, course there are a lot of calculations to prove AGI is the best build (thx Sijar)..... For now, there's still a lot to see in this game.

The telegraph was also the best, till the telephone came :P

[KawaiiPhoenix]

Just t get myself clear, there's a point in reducing attack speed, dun get me wrong, but there is no point right now to rush...

[Zeltar]

I believe my original post was misinterpreted by some people.

This is not about excluding people from the pure AGI build, judging people etc, by all means there is nothing wrong with going along this path tested and proven path.

I agree with yuroko that these forums are for sharing research, and helping people enhance their ability. And if something is has been experimented on and works then it’s good for everyone else to be able to make use of this information.

Also we don’t know how everything works in practice. Eg one of the main reasons why I liked the pure AGI build at the start was to get the normal attack speed to 0.1, so that would mean more DPS, without using threaten, but the attack speed is bugged. Hence this takes the real edge away from the pure AGI build. Damage is very important at low levels, and dodge is important(the critts from AGI is small), so it is still a good path just for the raw DMG(critical damage is based on raw damage so you need it for men crits) and dodge

Yes double strike(lvl131) and most of our other actions are skill based, so pumping men might possibly help. We only have theory and it is not till we put it into practice that we really see. You’d of course need significant amount of damage, if you strike a bit faster but hit half as hard then it doesn’t achieve anything.

One aspect of MEN that has been commonly overlooked is hit rate. This might become important later in the game in rogue Vs rogue matches, as a rogue with 84 dodge will be only hit 1% of the time by a person with 85 hit rate, so virtually impossible to kill, while someone chucking in a lot of men might pump their hit rate to 100%, meaning they are 26 times as likely to hit this dodge. Then the high men character will be the only one able to touch this rogue. So we(and everyone else) might need to have some men to be able to take down high level rogue.

The thing is there is always some difference between theory and practice, and the whole situation changes drastically as you level. And as Helen rightly pointed out, these experimenters are our pioneers.

Yes, the research is available, and it is good we know a build that works well, and many people can follow it. I’m just saying we should have the freedom that people can deviate from the build, and report the practical effects, so we can see what it’s really like in practice.

Different people play the game differently, so one build might work well for some people, but someone with a totally different playing style might get more out of a slightly different build (like most knights going POW, though some have decided their job is just to tank, so they go with STA instead, and let the party deal out the damage)

This discussion is not about judging, but about giving people the freedom to try whatever they want if they feel like trying different things, and if they want to follow a proven formulae then that’s fine as well.

[wmdonlooker]

Lols has i stated on other thread in this forum, agi is a must for neos/rogue cos ur equips just don;t cut it in def and u don;t have hp like squires so being hit is basically gonna hurt alot, ur agis ur sole advantage so those that go pure agi are probally the ones with the best chance of survival!

[KilThak]

It comes off very elitist and arrogant, and snobby.


What's arrogant and elitist is people who call others stupid for trying something different than a cookie cutter build. There's something to be said for being your own character. Who wants to play a game where every single character of a class has the same gear, ability scores, spells, et al?

It's ironic that you are so defensive of the elitist style, and call someone else elitist.

http://elitistjerks.com/

There's a reason this site dedicated to cookie cutter builds calls themselves the Elitist Jerks. It's because they are. Even if it is dedicated to WoW, the point remains.

[Yoruko]

What's arrogant and elitist is people who call others stupid for trying something different than a cookie cutter build. There's something to be said for being your own character. Who wants to play a game where every single character of a class has the same gear, ability scores, spells, et al?

It's ironic that you are so defensive of the elitist style, and call someone else elitist.

http://elitistjerks.com/

There's a reason this site dedicated to cookie cutter builds calls themselves the Elitist Jerks. It's because they are. Even if it is dedicated to WoW, the point remains.

Wow really, try reading an entire post before taking one line out of context and insulting people. Taking stuff out of context does nothing but make you look like a fool, I clearly explained my views and if you can't see it it's because you refuse to.