cash shop haters. why? and are you one of them?

[poolplayermaster]

ok as of lately i see alot of cash shop item haters

i actually got into a fight with one earlier today

i want to kow why if you are a cash shop hater you hate it so much and if you are one of them annoymously or openly

i want your views and opinions

do you realize that if it weren't for people buying from the cash shop it wouldn't be free? the ads don't keep it free by themselves

would you rather pay $20 to $50 a month to play fiesta?

why does it bother you so much that people wear outits that dont' go along with any of the classes ingame such as tuxs and dress rather then armors and shirts or capes?

is it really that big a deal that soem people have a house that doesn't look like a mushy or that some people have rides that aren't made of wood or cloth and don't need float stones?

or that the very same +9 weapons and equips you buy were most likely made using red eyes and blue miles at some point in that weapon/equips life?

or how about that someone is using a hp/sp extender which all that is is about the same as having a endure buff and a vitality scroll on with out the cost or wait for a buff?

or is it that they want more shop, inventory, and storage spaces as it runs out all too quickly with multiple characters sometimes?

or is it the nice pair of shades or shiny glasses, or maybe the summer wear or workout gear, or even the warrior armorthat makes you mad?

may its a little extra stength or defence that bothers you or someone not having to worry about exp loss when they die, or perhaps a little extra exp when they klll?

a quicker gathering rate maybe or a diffrent hairstyle and facial feature, fixing a mistake in skill stats or characters stats maybe?

or is it that they have a pet that isn't found in game unless baught with real money isntead of silver?

maybe its the seemingly endless supply of hp and sp potion from just one bottle?

is it really so wrong for people to pay real money for pixels as some call it?


these are my question to all if your problem is with any of the above please answer it appropriately and tell me why.

its not a rant its jsut wantng to know why and find out others opinions on this subject that is talked about so much.

edit: could a gm or csr or cl sticky this plz

[heavensraven]

my thoughts are that cash shop is a waste of money; i myself having spent around 50 dollar ish? i guess it depends if you are really into the game, if you are then spend all you want lol its your money to waste. if your not really into the game, then i would advise not to throw money, lol spending real money on spark cash to me is like burning money.

[UzumakiW]

Personally, I like the cash shop. I like to make my characters look cool. Plus, I know it's what keeps Fiesta going for free. The way I see it, I would rather pay for something I'm not required to have to play, but just to make my character look cool and give me a few boosts, than to have to pay to play the game all-together.

[poolplayermaster]

that may be true but think about anything you spend on just entertainment is a waste isn't it

buying a game console such as ps2 xbox or gamecube or the new generation ps3 xbox360 and wii is a waste isn't it you dont' get anything more then entertainment out of it it doesn't feed you teach you (unless its one of htem learning games) or help you in anyway shape or form

so isn't all entertainment like burning your money?

Personally, I like the cash shop. I like to make my characters look cool. Plus, I know it's what keeps Fiesta going for free. The way I see it, I would rather pay for something I'm not required to have to play, but just to make my character look cool and give me a few boosts, than to have to pay to play the game all-together.

now see thats what im saying and besides who wants there lvl 44 fighter to look exactly like every other llv 40 fighter who chose the same face and hair whent hey made it

i sure don't i liek my white tux black shades demon marks and crazy red hair

[heavensraven]

yea but with a ps3 its something that your gonna have with you forever, plus its a computor,blue ray, also its a material good, where as with fiesta your buying items on an online game, where once you quit its gone forever, plus most items on cs have a time limit dont they? a ps3, xbox 360 lasts forever :) so theres your difference in entertainment there

[Astrayx74]

I just love cash shop users,especially when their fighters it means we're gonna win the KQ because everyone wants them to be tanker since they have such high def >.<

[poolplayermaster]

yea but with a ps3 its something that your gonna have with you forever, plus its a computor,blue ray, also its a material good, where as with fiesta your buying items on an online game, where once you quit its gone forever, plus most items on cs have a time limit dont they? a ps3, xbox 360 lasts forever :) so theres your difference in entertainment there


thats only half true actually

yes some of these do have time limits but $10 a month to have nice thinks or $40 a month just to play without having nice things

and a ps3 and 360 and wii (you left it out dont' even get me started on that one lol)

are not forever they break down sometimes and stop working forever and soemtimes jsut have to be sent away and fixed aka( 360's red ring of death curtesy of guitar hero)


I just love cash shop users,especially when their fighters it means we're gonna win the KQ because everyone wants them to be tanker since they have such high def >.<


thats where a hp/sp 150% 30 day extender comes in handy as well as a charm of defense 120% for 2 hours or is it 1 i forget

[heavensraven]

iono my ps3 is fiine lol the only way i can picture someone breaking it, is if they played it non stop and didnt clean it lol

[poolplayermaster]

well if you take the tiem to clean yours then you are tedious at keeping things from breaking but most do not bother cleaning them

but something could spill on it or fall on it and fazitttttttttt krackle its gone $500 dollars downt he drain

[rtan9838]

for the people who think that paying for entertainment is a waste. YOU ARE WRONG LAWL OMG ZOMG

xD

No really, I'm ok.

Entertainment is like a service, why do people pay for plumbing? Why do people pay for others to make them a website? Why do people pay others to cook and clean their own homes? It is something we are either uncapable of doing ourselves, or plain lazy. In the case of entertainment, since we cannot make a super awesome game ourselves, we pay to play one that someone else has made for us.

And for the case with cash shop, it is just like saying "I paid $10 on a tennis racket" "I paid $100 on a tennis racket" "I borrow my neighbour's tennis racket". IN OTHER WORDS... Some people pay more for services that can improve the entertainment that they are getting, some people prefer to use the free option and just have the maximum fun with what minimum equipment that they possess.



LETS THINK OF ENTERTAINMENT ANOTHER WAY. Why do people pay for therapists? "Omg I had a stupid day filled with stupid people saying stupid things to me I'm so angry! RAWR!" It takes stress off you when you buy the service of an ear to be heard. You are paying someone to listen to your ramblings because you probably have no one else who has the patience to listen to you ramble on about stupid things. HOWEVER, from paying these therapists money to listen to you rant (which you could probably do to a brick wall) you will feel that a weight has been lifted from your shoulders (talking to a brick wall might not bring you the same level of comfort).

So in saying this, all the people who DO buy things like game consoles, and cash shop items... we are buying a service that gives us happiness. I like looking at my sexy character in a nice costume. I like running past people on their broom sticks when I'm on my rhino.



ON TOPIC NOW: all you haters are just jealous you have no money to spend on the game like us :D and for all you people who are like "zomg I'm richer than you noob lawl", why the hell are you hating us then? If you don't like people having better items than you, quit whining and spend your money, if you refuse to spend that money, you have no right to complain as none of us are better off than you are.

And to that person who said that ps3>fiesta. Same thing really, ps3 is useless without any games or blue rays to play ($$$ anyone?). In fiesta, you're buying your level I guess. Your account will always be there (unless the game breaks a part).

I think of it this way... If people are going to pay $$$ for cable tv... or to play some bowling... or to go watch a sport... or to watch a concert... or whatever is their/your type of entertainment/leisure activity, then why not on a game that I spent probably MORE hours on and gives me happy times?

edit: I think some people pay for online friend making services too.. this is like, entertainment AND friends making. Some people even meet in games and later on get married!

[poolplayermaster]

amen

rtan said it all in a much simpler way then i did

although i thaught about ading a jealousy comment in my first post i decided nt to

jsut becaus we are either older an dhave jobs or our parents are giving us soem money or we spent ou allowances whichever the cas emay be to have more then some others do or look diffrent then everyone else or be faster, just remember you could do the same so stop being stingy and pony up some green for fiesta

[heavensraven]

thats weird O_O lol

[Shadowic2]

Outspark is not forcing anyone to use the Cash Shop, so it is completely the players choice whether or not they wish to use it.

And whether people like the cash shop or not, we do need it. Without the Cash Shop, Outspark wouldn't be able to fund the fixes and changes needed to make this game better.

If anyone was here before we had the Cash Shop, you'd notice that there weren't very many updates or regular maintenances as there are now. That is due to the fact that they didn't have the extra money from the Cash Shop to fund them. And now that we do have it, we have maintenances about every week, and are just now starting to get some really awesome changes made to the game. This is all due to people who use the Cash Shop.

If someone wants to spend their money on something that enhances their gameplay and makes this game more enjoyable to them, then that is solely their choice. In return for their patronism, the rest of us get maintenances and updates that keep this game running smoothly.

If someone doesn't wish to spend their money on the Cash Shop, simply due to them having better things to put their money to (bills, school, etc) then that is perfectly fine as well. This game is quite enjoyable without the aid of Cash Shop items.

Whatever a person chooses or chooses not to spend their money on concerning the Cash Shop is completely okay, and I don't see any reason why people would have to argue about it. It's all a matter of choice and respecting the choices that others make.

[rtan9838]

amen

rtan said it all in a much simpler way then i did

although i thaught about ading a jealousy comment in my first post i decided nt to

jsut becaus we are either older and have jobs or our parents are giving us soem money or we spent ou allowances whichever the cas emay be to have more then some others do or look diffrent then everyone else or be faster, just remember you could do the same so stop being stingy and pony up some green for fiesta

xD I work. So I spend my "hard earned" money the way I want. Infact, fiesta forums keeps me company at work (eg right now :x). Some people work and save up to buy that awesome new car they've wanted for ages. Some people work to save up for that tv. Some people want to go on holidays and put their money there. ----- We cash shop users want to buy a few items from a game that gives us entertainment value!

All you haters should be thanking us, without us cash shop users, there are no such thing as FREE games.

[poolplayermaster]

i put about 20 to 50 dolalrs a month into fiesta out of $1000 a month that i make so how it effects me well it dont' i pay everything i have to and still ahve a good hundred or so left over for anythign i need til pay day or for saving

infact i will admit i have spent almost $300 on fiesta sicne i first started playing back in november so lets do some math 300/6=50

think about it the most expensive monthly membership pay to play mmo i have seen costs that much a month so if i spent that much to have cool stuf and what not and still play for free then whats the big deal instead of missing out ont hat stuff just to be able to play

and its not an argument or fight really its jsut it really annoys me when people start spamming things like cash shop users or nub, noobs, or n00bs etc in the ingame chat or that we are wasting money on buying pixels that we have no life that pixels wont' get you a gf and so on

(note all taken form that conversationi had

so i thaught i would just come out with it and ask why

[Soulfrit]

xD I work. So I spend my "hard earned" money the way I want. Infact, fiesta forums keeps me company at work (eg right now :x). Some people work and save up to buy that awesome new car they've wanted for ages. Some people work to save up for that tv. Some people want to go on holidays and put their money there. ----- We cash shop users want to buy a few items from a game that gives us entertainment value!

All you haters should be thanking us, without us cash shop users, there are no such thing as FREE games.

I've never paid for a game and never will (personal preference). I have no problems with games that charge through a cash chop or a "premium" service unless it's so grossly leant towards premium players that there's no point in playing limited things.
Fiesta has CS items, but you can play without them, goodluck to the people who play and end up allowing Outspark to keep the game going.

But I will NOT go around thanking CS users to keep Fiesta or any other "free game" going. If they want to buy it..fine, if a game closes down cause not enough people are buying items?
I'll find another one, one way or another.
It's everyone's own choice

Although that permant bag for your char's inventory is mighty tempting... :p

[rtan9838]

and its not an argument or fight really its jsut it really annoys me when people start spamming things like cash shop users or nub, noobs, or n00bs etc in the ingame chat or that we are wasting money on buying pixels that we have no life that pixels wont' get you a gf and so on

(note all taken form that conversationi had

so i thaught i would just come out with it and ask why

Lol to them!!! I've personally not seen many people call cash shop users noobs. I have seen people go "omg cash shop users are CHEATERS LAWL" or "cash shop users are idiots for wasting their money on non tangible objects". What about all the mp3s that people buy? These are non tangible. These things are about as real as my character in Fiesta. They are just as non realistic and digital as any other thing on your computer.

I know many people who have a perfectly healthy lifestyle outside of games. I for one do, I don't have a gf (but I do have a bf), I have a respectable job, I have friends and social outings every week, a family who is loving, pets that I play with, etc etc. Just because people like me who enjoy a bit of gaming, does not mean we have no life. In fact, those who have no life probably DONT have the money to spend on cash shop xD

[rtan9838]

But I will NOT go around thanking CS users to keep Fiesta or any other "free game" going. If they want to buy it..fine, if a game closes down cause not enough people are buying items?
I'll find another one, one way or another.

Although that permant bag for your char's inventory is mighty tempting... :p

D: making me double post because I'm too lazy to edit my last post.

We cash shop users really don't mind if people keep their mouths shut. But when I see people go "omg cash shop is cheating" a little fire with start in my mind that gets bigger with every dumb comment people make. We spend our money at our own will, and it is rude that those who don't go around calling us "wasting our money on stupid things like a free game". If you think about it, you really SHOULD be thanking cash shop users. Not going to force you, but logically there's no way to argue against it.

Why? The game pays their hosting, pays their gms, pays people to maintain content, pays people to maintain the forums and websites, etc. Where do you get this money from? Cash shop users. Without that money, gms cannot get paid, the website cannot be hosted, the game cannot be hosted, technical support cannot be hired, developers cannot be paid, the game will not exist.

So be thankful, that people who do spend money on the game, are keeping this game up and running, and free for ever. Be thankful, if not verbally, then at least in your mind (you meaning, you the person reading this who is not a CS user, not you, the person I'm quoting). We don't want you bowing at our feet, but we don't want to tolerate rude comments either.

[Gravvi]

i find some items are good bonuses. But it also makes teh game. If ur a rich person IRL u have a better chance of being better IG. Can afford BoT. Exp boosts. Charms. (you can pay someone to enhance) Where as I can't afford those on a regular basis. SO i spend more time grinding more time making up exp loss. 140k exp loss currently on my archer. It provides some imbalances toward pvp and guild wars... and sometimes in events.

I use CS btw. Its just some things that bother me. Like rich people.. they bother me....

[Cha0sTribe]

Outspark is not forcing anyone to use the Cash Shop, so it is completely the players choice whether or not they wish to use it.


Outspark don't force people to use the Cash Shop, but they "persuade" people to get one. Its what we call as Business, and is nothing wrong with that. It's a reality.

For example, at Outspark launch game icon, you can see there are lots of latest CS items. It's what we called advertisement. Indirectly, Outspark encourage us to use them. It's called "art of persuasion". Again, its a nature of business industry ~ They encourage customers to buy their products.

But in the end, it's up to us whether want to use the Cash Shop or not. It's our final decision.

[rtan9838]

I use CS btw. Its just some things that bother me. Like rich people.. they bother me....

I like rich people. they enhance for you :D
Leaves my money to be spent on pretty costumes that cannot be traded ^^

Outspark don't force people to use the Cash Shop, but they "persuade" people to get one. Its what we call as Business, and is nothing wrong with that. It's a reality.

For example, at Outspark launch game icon, you can see there are lots of latest CS items. It's what we called advertisement. Indirectly, Outspark encourage us to use them. It's called "art of persuasion". Again, its a nature of business industry ~ They encourage customers to buy their products.

But in the end, it's up to us whether want to use the Cash Shop or not. It's our final decision.

You must work with marketing and advertising people (or design banner ads for online). I do, and that's why I think like you... But I don't think everyone will understand if they have no professional experience in this field... this IS fiesta...

[Soulfrit]

D: making me double post because I'm too lazy to edit my last post.

We cash shop users really don't mind if people keep their mouths shut. But when I see people go "omg cash shop is cheating" a little fire with start in my mind that gets bigger with every dumb comment people make. We spend our money at our own will, and it is rude that those who don't go around calling us "wasting our money on stupid things like a free game". If you think about it, you really SHOULD be thanking cash shop users. Not going to force you, but logically there's no way to argue against it.

Why? The game pays their hosting, pays their gms, pays people to maintain content, pays people to maintain the forums and websites, etc. Where do you get this money from? Cash shop users. Without that money, gms cannot get paid, the website cannot be hosted, the game cannot be hosted, technical support cannot be hired, developers cannot be paid, the game will not exist.

So be thankful, that people who do spend money on the game, are keeping this game up and running, and free for ever. Be thankful, if not verbally, then at least in your mind (you meaning, you the person reading this who is not a CS user, not you, the person I'm quoting). We don't want you bowing at our feet, but we don't want to tolerate rude comments either.

I was actually going to post again after your last one but ehh...10mins left of work, energy gone :p
Oh I know why they do it, I have no problem IF they cash shop stuff since in Fiesta you can still play and do everything the same without the nice Cash Shop items (although after seeing how active Fiesta is I'm actually considering getting a couple of things :p)
And I'm grateful to anyone that keeps a running don't worry about that, I have seen games try to stay free and fail, games that go P2P (Pay to Play) and resort to cash shop due to losing players.
There won't be a thankyou, merley an acknowledgement that you people (yes you cash shop users and yes you who quoted me :p) are one of the reasons the game is running well :p
Who knows, the permanant bag item is swaying me alot to actually spend some spark cash, my outlook may change, but at the moment, I'm happy spending my money on my mortgage, car, petrol, food, work, partying, family etc etc.
Not that it may somehow change later on.

And yes I agree with you about people who have nothing nice to say shouldn't say anything at all, it's a personal decision for people to use CS items. Everyone makes their own decision!

[poolplayermaster]

agreed we dont' exspect peopel to bow and sya omg thank you i can play this because of you

but leave your dumb comments to yourself is allw e ask

i know some people who call us cheaters as well such as one of my guild members i've been called cheater bultipletimes by them but isit really cheating ?

think about it i buy one 150% hp sp extender for 30 days it really jsut saves me the use of a t3 vitality scroll and trying to get a endure buff and i've tested it it ads up to about the same

so is it really cheating now sure using all three is a little cheap (godly 4k hp) yes i've done it no im not ashamed of it saved me from dieing a few tiems and helped some others win in a kq.

infact i've been called a cheater for using t3 scrolls when that same peson was using t1 scrolls whats the diffrence its put there for us to use wether its paid for with ingame money or real money

[ToorimaKun]

why does it bother you so much that people wear outits that dont' go along with any of the classes ingame such as tuxs and dress rather then armors and shirts or capes?

i don't like cash shop that much... but its not the chash shop its self... i don't like the items that make the game unbalanced.

such as eyes... before cash shop i could get to +6 with out eyes.. now i can barly get to +3.

[Cha0sTribe]

You must work with marketing and advertising people (or design banner ads for online). I do, and that's why I think like you... But I don't think everyone will understand if they have no professional experience in this field... this IS fiesta...

Yep, I work at marketing/advertising company. But I'm working in design department (where real headache comes from XD..muahaha).

You are right, I totally forgot there are kids who are playing this game. But there is no harm to expose this business education at earlier age, right? :D

[poolplayermaster]

what you mean i still +3 or +6 items before resorting to using red eyes or blue miles

and besides if you have a blue sheild or wep do you really wanna try and enhance it without them?

[rtan9838]

Who knows, the permanant bag item is swaying me alot to actually spend some spark cash, my outlook may change, but at the moment, I'm happy spending my money on my mortgage, car, petrol, food, work, partying, family etc etc.
Not that it may somehow change later on.

Ah yes... :( I will be enjoying spending my money on games until I get a mortgage. so sad...

i know some people who call us cheaters as well such as one of my guild members i've been called cheater bultipletimes by them but isit really cheating ?

That's like saying "are doctors who have more money cheaters for buying more expensive awesome houses?" NO is the answer! Just because we have the capabilities does NOT make people with more resources cheaters. Working to make money to spend on a game is not cheating. Cheat is if you steal that money but someone else had to earn it.

such as eyes... before cash shop i could get to +6 with out eyes.. now i can barly get to +3.

I know, so sad. But I would call this an exploit. It is exploiting a part of the market that is in HIGH demand and making money from it. In a way it makes people angry, but like usual - no one is forcing you to buy the cash shop items. But lots of people want those shiny +9, so Outspark KNOWS you're going to spend the money, so they use this opportunity to make the money (that IS needed to run the game, so it isn't really making it all for profit reasons).

Yep, I work at marketing/advertising company. But I'm working in design department (where real headche comes from XD..muahaha).

You are right, I totally forgot there are kids who are playing this game. But there is no harm to expose this business education at earlier age :D

Yeah you told me you were in design. I was in design too, half still am... We are the people who have to change our designs because our designs are too "pretty" and not enough "selling", so we all have to make changes that will "sell" rather than "look pretty".

[poolplayermaster]

i dunno about being pretty but i like to look nice in game and if looking unique means spending real money so be it

i have yet to see another personwho looks like me

( note i am featured in my sig with my gf)

[Cha0sTribe]

I know, so sad. But I would call this an exploit. It is exploiting a part of the market that is in HIGH demand and making money from it. In a way it makes people angry, but like usual - no one is forcing you to buy the cash shop items. But lots of people want those shiny +9, so Outspark KNOWS you're going to spend the money, so they use this opportunity to make the money (that IS needed to run the game, so it isn't really making it all for profit reasons).
.

Hmmm...From persuasion to exploitation, it's still consider as part of business strategy, I think.

I didn't know they can do such settings to make an item getting harder to enhance, unless they using red eyes/blue miles.

I forgot to add one thing. For me there are some certain items that in my opinion, shouldn't count as CS items in the 1st place. For example Stats and Skills reset, and Licence removal.

That 10 points stats reset reward only applied from the latest patch. It's didn't apply for those who has reached level 30 and above before that patch released.

Yes, people make mistakes while adding the stats, or accidentally put a wrong licence. But in my opinion, they shouldn't use our mistake as their profit. Its unnecessary.

Just my opinion. Fell free to discuss =)

[Ryokosha]

Fiesta Cash Shop is okay, SoS and Bread 'n Butter cash shops are much worse because there the player actually fully depend on those items.

I think the Fiesta Cash Shop items are a bit too expensive, I mean I'm fine with spending $50 for a game. But spending $50 or more for a game every month, no way. If you really like a game it's okay if you support it by buying something from it, though. I didn't feel obligated to, I would only use a Cash Shop if there were prepaid cards in my country anyways. Plus the time limit on all the items is annoying. As I only play this game like 5 times a month, it'd be pointless for me to buy anything there. Okay there are permanent items now but they cost as much as a complete game and aren't too useful anyways. I might pay $50 for an endless Red Eye and an endless Blue Mile, but not for an outfit~ (but even then paying the price of all whole game for a single item in a game doesn't really make sense to me)

Oh well, I'm not really complaining. Outspark is hosting this game and I bet they made hundreds of calculations in order to find out how to maximize their income and if it's best like this I can't really argue against it. I'm not going to some employee and tell him to ask his boss for less salary either.

[Soulfrit]

Ah yes... :( I will be enjoying spending my money on games until I get a mortgage. so sad...

At only 22 it's tough going, but oh so rewarding for my credit rating :D
It was my decision, just like spending Cash Shop
All in it's own time eh? :p

[Quiksilverjosh]

omg you actually posted a thread about this... jesus christ get over it.


ok as of lately i see alot of cash shop item haters

i actually got into a fight with one earlier today

i want to kow why if you are a cash shop hater you hate it so much and if you are one of them annoymously or openly

i want your views and opinions

do you realize that if it weren't for people buying from the cash shop it wouldn't be free? the ads don't keep it free by themselves

would you rather pay $20 to $50 a month to play fiesta?

why does it bother you so much that people wear outits that dont' go along with any of the classes ingame such as tuxs and dress rather then armors and shirts or capes?

is it really that big a deal that soem people have a house that doesn't look like a mushy or that some people have rides that aren't made of wood or cloth and don't need float stones?

or that the very same +9 weapons and equips you buy were most likely made using red eyes and blue miles at some point in that weapon/equips life?

or how about that someone is using a hp/sp extender which all that is is about the same as having a endure buff and a vitality scroll on with out the cost or wait for a buff?

or is it that they want more shop, inventory, and storage spaces as it runs out all too quickly with multiple characters sometimes?

or is it the nice pair of shades or shiny glasses, or maybe the summer wear or workout gear, or even the warrior armorthat makes you mad?

may its a little extra stength or defence that bothers you or someone not having to worry about exp loss when they die, or perhaps a little extra exp when they klll?

a quicker gathering rate maybe or a diffrent hairstyle and facial feature, fixing a mistake in skill stats or characters stats maybe?

or is it that they have a pet that isn't found in game unless baught with real money isntead of silver?

maybe its the seemingly endless supply of hp and sp potion from just one bottle?

is it really so wrong for people to pay real money for pixels as some call it?


these are my question to all if your problem is with any of the above please answer it appropriately and tell me why.

its not a rant its jsut wantng to know why and find out others opinions on this subject that is talked about so much.

edit: could a gm or csr or cl sticky this plz

[AngellicDiety]

I dislike the cash shop for the soul reason that this game is being balanced around it.

If the game was balanced around the non-cash shop users and the cash shop was a bonus which made a significant impact, but not a tremendous one to affect balance, then I wouldn't care about it.

For instance, extra storage, inventory, looks, pets, mounts dont bother me much.

But when you can buy a permanent buff for 30 days with an increased 50% HP/SP, then I think its a bit rediculous. If it was a 5 or 10 hour card, then I wouldn't have any problems with it.

The item gathering system for example, I dont mind if you can pick faster, if the gold bar worked like it did in the past. Right now I'm 2 seconds into farming a mushroom, and some cash shop user just comes, picks, and basically steals it.

[yourmojo]

omg you actually posted a thread about this... jesus christ get over it.

First of all, you're allowed to post threads. Second of all, he/she is not jesus christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have nothing again cash shoppers unless they use that idea to attempt to prove they are better than someone. For example, "my mount is faster than yours, you are teh nubs"

I use cash shop, lightly compared to most I think. I work for my money, as someone has probably already stated...So I'll spend it how I like. But I would never attempt to say I was better than anyone else because of that.

[Shrift]

i'm not a cash shop user mainly coz i dont a have enough money at the moment but i plan on be comming one when im a higher lvl, i have also been riped on coz i havent got any cash shop item, im not saying all cash shop users do this but there are some who do it.

[MrSlashy]

I'm okay with CS users actually. But not all of them. It depends on how you use your CS. Recently, I've encountered alot of CS abusers, spamming charms and stuffs just so that they can win, making it really unfair in some occassions. But also, people will love it if there are CS users in a grinding party. It'll give you less stress when healing/tanking/burning your stones/damage etc. So.. I'll go for a 50/50 I guess.

[rtan9838]

having mounts compared to each other is rarely any sort of abuse.

I think that extenders in pvp is not very nice. That is what i considered almost cheating. If you're going to use cash shop items that'll benefit you greatly in pvp, then you are being a plain a$sh0l3. It probably isn't so much "cheating" in guild wars as it was not balanced to begin with (number of players in each guild varies, levels various, so using extenders/charms probably isn't going to really be that big a deal).

I will look down on people who do use charms/extenders in battle zone pvp, and those who use it to kill others in pvp maps to steal spots.

[programmer579]

Don't hate em don't like em don't really care? XD

uh ... I like being able to make my character look different and to not lose exp when i die XD ...

I will look down on people who do use charms/extenders in battle zone pvp, and those who use it to kill others in pvp maps to steal spots.
I agree. When people use it to mercilessly kill kill kill ... >.>'

[l7eath]

that may be true but think about anything you spend on just entertainment is a waste isn't it

buying a game console such as ps2 xbox or gamecube or the new generation ps3 xbox360 and wii is a waste isn't it you dont' get anything more then entertainment out of it it doesn't feed you teach you (unless its one of htem learning games) or help you in anyway shape or form

so isn't all entertainment like burning your money?



now see thats what im saying and besides who wants there lvl 44 fighter to look exactly like every other llv 40 fighter who chose the same face and hair whent hey made it

i sure don't i liek my white tux black shades demon marks and crazy red hair

maybe you should think about throwing away your computer and disconnecting your internet and uninstall fiesta, cause that a waste of money if that how you put it as "entertainment". you dont need a computer or an internet connection to live and it doesnt feed anyone so its a waste isnt? you can just go to the library when you need to use it or the school ur going too. Do you see why pro athletics get paid millions of $$$ each year while the president of the US only make about $200k/yr, thats because people are willing to pay big amount of $$$ to satisfied their needs/wants. *Referring to the US, since this game is US version*

[programmer579]

maybe you should think about throwing away your computer and disconnecting your internet and uninstall fiesta, cause that a waste of money if that how you put it as "entertainment". you dont need a computer or an internet connection to live and it doesnt feed anyone so its a waste isnt? you can just go to the library when you need to use it or the school ur going too. Do you see why pro athletics get paid millions of $$$ each year while the president of the US only make about $200k/yr, thats because people are willing to pay big amount of $$$ to satisfied their needs/wants. *Referring to the US, since this game is US version*

uh ... did u even read the rest of the posts??? scratch that ... did u even read any of them besides that one???

poolmasterplayer made that statement to counter someone else ... the two were playing the "if" game and having a rather friendly convo about it ... so calm down ... and IF u even read them ... you'd see that poolmasterplayer pays for cash shop items ... and his ORIGINAL question ... was why do u like/hate people who use cash shop items ...

... next time try reading before telling someone how to get rid of their computer step by step -_-' ... not to mention ... if ur throwing away ur computer then u wouldn't have internet to unplug and fiesta to unistall ... they'd be gone when u threw the comp out in the first place -_-'

[kklobos]

.......we just pay for sparkcash because we want to buy it, why hate us? its our decision what we do with OUR money, they can go buy something else and i wont care because its their money. So let us be

[l7eath]

uh ... did u even read the rest of the posts??? scratch that ... did u even read any of them besides that one???

poolmasterplayer made that statement to counter someone else ... the two were playing the "if" game and having a rather friendly convo about it ... so calm down ... and IF u even read them ... you'd see that poolmasterplayer pays for cash shop items ... and his ORIGINAL question ... was why do u like/hate people who use cash shop items ...

... next time try reading before telling someone how to get rid of their computer step by step -_-' ... not to mention ... if ur throwing away ur computer then u wouldn't have internet to unplug and fiesta to unistall ... they'd be gone when u threw the comp out in the first place -_-'

i am replying to the quote from poolmaster, im not replying on all his other post, im just replying on the one quote that i post, dont have to go pms on me now, i think ur the person that need to chill out.

[larkn]

I think something to remember is that when you pay $15 a month for another game, all you're doing is paying for the right to play the game... you don't get anything else out of it. Plus you need to buy a copy of the game in the first place.

With Fiesta (or other Outspark games), if you pay $15 a month you get some tangible in-game benefit for it. And best of all, if you don't want to spend any money or don't have the money to spend, you're not forced to and can still play the game for free.

Just something to think about.

[Angelxx]

yea but with a ps3 its something that your gonna have with you forever, plus its a computor,blue ray, also its a material good, where as with fiesta your buying items on an online game, where once you quit its gone forever, plus most items on cs have a time limit dont they? a ps3, xbox 360 lasts forever :) so theres your difference in entertainment there

LOL PS3 is forever? Are you quite sure about that? Things get obsolete remember?

Yes, once the items expire they are gone forever. But whilst they are there, they fulfill their purpose. That of giving us enjoyment.

Is going to the movies permanent enjoyment? No. Once the movie is over, the money you spent is gone for good. You cannot reuse your ticket. So, what would you do? Stop going to the movies?

Is going for a nice meal permanent enjoyment? No. Once the meal is over, the money you spent on it is gone for good too. So do you intend to stop eating?

Entertainment is never permanent. The point is that it gives you pleasure during the period of 'entertainment'. Sparkcash allows users to derive entertainment from the item they buy for the duration of that item.

All I can say about CS haters is..........sour grapes. ;)

i am replying to the quote from poolmaster, im not replying on all his other post, im just replying on the one quote that i post, dont have to go pms on me now, i think ur the person that need to chill out.

LOL I think you missed the point. It wasn't poolmaster claiming that 'entertainment is wasting money' per se. He was countering someone's claim that Fiesta sparkcash is wasting money as opposed to eg PS3.

[Lordlymight]

I am a rather happy cash shop user. I have purchased items both to enhance game play and provide appearance related uniqueness. I have not spent very much, but I do like the things I have bought.

That said, allow me a moment to play devil's advocate...

Based on both anecdotal experience and conversation with others, it is my impression that people who dislike cash shop items are the same ones who cannot afford or choose not to spend money on cash shop items.

The items provide a benefit, sometimes substantial, to those that choose to spend real money on the game. To them, that makes the game "unfair" & "unbalanced" because these items can be used in situations that provide an advantage in competitive play. For instance, speed of leveling, player versus player, and general mobility (which can equate to speed of leveling, depending on destination). Two players completely equal in respect to ingame, free equipment, builds and buffs can have very disparate outcomes if one user has cash shop items. This becomes even more true if the two are directly competing (whether in PVP or while leveling). This perceived unfairness lends to contempt and anger.

Now, to counter my own points here. Cash shop is a real money expenditure. Who in their right mind would use the cash shop if there was no benefit to doing so?

PVP has absolutely no negative consequence other than those covered by the ToS (i.e. so if someone is warring you to over spot claiming, then cash shop items or not, they are breaching the ToS). You do not gain or lose experience, there is no tally of kills or kill record, most times, even the walk back to the original spot is pretty short. So someone buying CS items for PvP is doing so for their own personal sadistic pleasure and you are out nothing other than a little eating of crow. Otherwise, CS items benefit only the member who bought it (this benefit can be spread around a bit, such as having the guy with the extender on tank duty in KQ, or buying an item with silver someone enhanced with eyes). Therefore there is no reason to be upset. Its just a game, enjoy what of it you can, ignore what of it you can't...

[KenshinGi]

I am a rather happy cash shop user. ...

So yea i wont quote the whole thing >.> but i do like your points I use cash shop items every now and again and find that the benifits are my own and I dont seem to inconvinience anyone I come across with it, save perhaps the odd person in PvP that got a bit too wordy :P All in all money belongs to the holder and seeing as how CS users are benefiting the game as a whole I find the use of those items very enjoyable who wants to play a game where evry one looks like either face 1 or 2...?

[iLoveless]

I don't hate Cash Shop users (I am one myself).

I would only "hate" Cash Shop users if they think that just because they bought from the shop that they are better than anyone else. For example, just because they bought from the store they think they are immune to being banned therefore act like jerks. Yeah right.

[poolplayermaster]

maybe you should think about throwing away your computer and disconnecting your internet and uninstall fiesta, cause that a waste of money if that how you put it as "entertainment". you dont need a computer or an internet connection to live and it doesnt feed anyone so its a waste isnt? you can just go to the library when you need to use it or the school ur going too. Do you see why pro athletics get paid millions of $$$ each year while the president of the US only make about $200k/yr, thats because people are willing to pay big amount of $$$ to satisfied their needs/wants. *Referring to the US, since this game is US version*


wow you blew taht way out of context

sorry i ahven't psoted ina bit but id did read the responses i had to go to work part of this life i was told i did not have

now then a computer is not a neccesity but is convenient to have in your home for doing such things as email, paying bills, keeping track of things that are not posted in the news media, finding out times and dates of events, writing a story, doing work for school, (note i no longer go to school and have a full time job working 40+ hours a week) so there for school computer out of question and a library do you know how packed they are and how limited doing somethings on them is, plus a computer cna yes also provide entertainment such as watching videos on any hosting site (youtube,myspace, etc) as well as playing games i.e. fiesta. but does it mean that somene should jus ttoss out a $2000 dollar investment (yes i have and am currently still pay the rest of that $2000 off on my computer) no it means that they have the convenience of yours there own personal computer rather then a publicly used computer by hundreds and htousands a day that may not always be there or have what they need.

now then i did not say you should toss out your ps3 not that i would spend $500 on one i prefer the cheaper and more enojoyabl ein my opinion wii for only $250 always been a bigger nintendo fan as they have been aroudn longer and i first started out on the NES to SNES then N64 to GameCube and soon a Wii when i can afford that investment into my entertainemtn.

and i also have a ps2 slim (c-mas gift) but lets not get off topic

and quicksilver if i want to make a post wondering what others opinions are and as to why they dont' like it or hate on CS users that my business i don't need your flames.

i really like lorldymihgts's points of view on it. it has pros and cons like i know everyone love me in robo KQ where i had 4000hp and 500+ def and could tank jsut about anything but the vivis and archers while running (note we had only 8 other people and only 1 cleric) but still survived and they were very hapy that i was there to be able to take the work load of running the mobs around so that we still got our reward chest and 8k exp

and ya know when you work so hard to get that 160k exp and then jsut cuz you die once its gone some people enjoy that blessing of teva wether death is aused by lag or someone dropping a mob off on you running out of healing items or biting off mroe then you can chew its nice to not have to do all that hard work again

think aobut it this way when you die in a console rpg the most well known im sure is final fantasy you don't lose exp, so why should those who have an option to have to lsoe it here, mind you i've yet to invest in one of those because i jsut don't plan on dieng and am a bit stubburn

and with as hard as it is to make money sometimes doing someone a faovor by spending your real mney to make them a +9 equip or wep in game in exchange for there silver or gold is it really wrong i know i've done it and am happy to say i've kept my fighter and other characters playig withotu that money i made i could not have odne so ons ell drops alone i was all but broke ingame when i did it

so my only agreement is that cash shop items in vp are definately not fair but so is a lvl 70+ person attackign a lvl 30+ person and one hititng them when asked to stop repeatedly when they are trying to have a friendly match with a friend and guild wars are always jsut plain uneven one guild may have 20 lvl 1's and one lvl 60 so a lvl 5 guild wars there and that lvl 60 comes killing them all fair ??? i dont' think it is

keep the comments coming im loving getting the diffrent outlooks and opinions ont his its having more success then i thaught it would

[rtan9838]

PVP has absolutely no negative consequence other than those covered by the ToS (i.e. so if someone is warring you to over spot claiming, then cash shop items or not, they are breaching the ToS).

this is incorrect. ToS covers abuse, but once it is in the pvp maps (abyss), killing to steal spots is actually allowed. Because you go into the map fully aware that you can be killed for your spot.

In my previous post however, I was refering to free battle zone pvp. That if people use cash shop items and go into the battle zones on a rampage to kill people, it is sometimes not very nice.

There are a lot of people making threads, or have made threads, on how cash shop events are unfair. This is the kind of whinging and whining that I hate. These are the reasons people who don't have cash shop items start to complain about those who do. "Omg he has money to spend on a game and is getting special treatment for it! I hate you this game is unfair I quit!". This is just plain ridiculous. "Omg he has money to buy a house! So unfair! I live in a cardboard box because I have no money! I quit life!" See the connection? Stop whining!

[poolplayermaster]

ya know really there are very few cash shop required events for fiesta msotly only on SoS and there are so many people who complain about the events as it is ims uprised they still do them

[Empathys]

I decided to skip reading all the posts to just post my opinion:

I'm only a "hater" in certain circumstances. Such as when someone proclaims to be the better at tanking than a Fighter (such as a Mage or Archer) when they're buffed out totally with CS items. It's not really a fair assessment because for lack of a better word, "cheating" at tanking.

But other than that I couldn't really care. I'm not in a position to use the CS myself but I benefit from friends who do. So if I did have a problem with it wouldn't it make me a hypocrite? Yes, yes it would. As for furthering my above point:

The CS seriously unbalances the fundamental aspects of the game by allowing the Mages and Archers to eliminate the need for a Tank. Or in the Tanks case, the need for a Cleric. Having +9 gear and CS items makes a Cleric damn near useless if you play it skillfully. Believe me, I've been in a party where the Tank had me not heal him using purely Stones and an occasional Pot to maintain a safe level of vita.

Clerics have the least to gain by using the CS as they're ineffective at soloing past a certain point (which is how it ought to be for the Support / Heal class.) Their Defense is already pretty high which can be cheaply augmented by T3 / T4 Def scrolls. Crit suits are rather pointless unless you're one of those fabled "DD Clerics" which is an oxy-moron.

Anyways, enough rambling.

[Xenite]

Bleh! My friend was logged in his account on my comp. See post below.

[Angelxx]

Let's put this thread into perspective.

It isn't about the abusers of CS. It is about those who hate CS users regardless of reason.

Eg

I was in roumen on my mage once and was having a discussion with someone in the game who claims that her sandhill scrolls at 1.5s was a bargain. When I disagreed and told her that sandhill scrolls are basically useless, her reply was to call me a stupid cash user noob.

Now, nothing in our discussion was about cash. Nothing I said or did (our discussion was in shout) reflected the fact I was a cash user. She had simply seen me walking by during our discussion and her prejudice was obvious.

These are the kind of 'haters' we are talking about.

We are not talking about abusers either. Honestly CS abusers are rare compared to the overall number of CS users. Those who hate CS users because of the abusers should reflect on themselves. It's like hating a race because you've met a couple of bad eggs from that race. Plain senseless. Should CS users start to hate non CS users? After all I can assure you there are more abusers who are non CS users than CS users.
---

@Empathys

A couple of dds/tanks who have high defence due to CS is hardly going to effectively unbalance the whole game.

+9 isn't a sole CS thing. I know people who can +9 items w/o eyes.

As for cs items being useless for clerics, I disagree. First and foremost there is the aesthetics. Some items simply are for looks. As for the crit, being a crit lover, every little bit helps. I'm not going to even mention the rest of the CS items that are useful like defence charms, extenders, etc.

And I honestly do not think being a hypocrite is something to be proud of.
---

I think people need to look at CS as a whole rather than selectively.

At the end of the day CS is here to stay. Stop being a hypocrite and complaining about CS when it is funding your free game. If you are truly that unhappy about CS, go pay for a game yourself.

[poolplayermaster]

got to agree with angel 100% on that one couldn't of put it better myself

[DarthRaider666]

(I don't use CashShop)
I'm not a Cash Shop hater and I'm never a hater of P2P player (Pay to Pay).

I'm sometimes a bit jealous of not having some nice items, but I know those money is to support Fiesta, like most some other games (and definitely MMORPGs). My parents disallow me to pay some money (not even $5) 'cause we're a bit out of money, so I have to live with that.

I do dislike people who show-off too much... =/

EDIT:
Okay, I finally finish reading almost all the posts here... I agree with some people here. :D
(I'm sure u know who I'm talking to)

[Gravvi]

ya know really there are very few cash shop required events for fiesta msotly only on SoS and there are so many people who complain about the events as it is ims uprised they still do them

Well lately almost all events require CS if u dont' want to lose exp... The gms imo went overboard in trying to get people to buy CS.

Back to the topic.

Like i said I don't like some aspects of the CS. I would personally like to see more permanent items. The point of a war and pvp is to test your skill. If you use CS what skill are you showing. THe skill that you have money to overpower your opponent.

You can't say enhanceing is one of those unfair deals. Because you can pretty much buy+9 items on the streets of Isya. It might cost you more IG money but thats better than nothing.

The event: Becoming a legend of isya I found totally unfair. Not because i didnt' win.. The fact that most of those legends bought exp boosts. BOT. I also found it unfair for those who just started playing but then again I started 2 weeks after OB started. i was 2 weeks behind so many people.

It all comes down to what each person is willing to accept. I accept that some people can pay pretty much their way through the game. (not all)

I have payed for lvling packs, perfects, Beauty shop, outfits. I personally don't like the extenders or charms. Because it makes a particular class in fiesta useless. THe fighters. A mage (the squishiest character) can get more hp and def than fighters with charms and extenders. SO why have a fighter when a mage can tank. Then you can invite another mage.

[Angelxx]

I disagree. My mage has extenders but not so she could tank. It is so that she does not die within 1 or 2 hits at mobs that she should be training on. When I have an aoe party, I still make sure I have a fighter tank and another cleric. The others I don't mind any other dds and preferably 1 more cleric.

Believe me my mage has saved many a cleric with those extenders. When our tank fails and the cleric aggros, I magic burst them to pull aggro off the cleric so the cleric can recover and revive our tank and all without having another dead mage on her hands.

I've lost count of the number of times my mage died in spidey kq after casting a nova and an inferno. I can just imagine how many more times I would have died if I didn't have extenders.

Having a good tank is ideal but we don't always get that. With mages squishiness and their lack of stone capacity, mages are severely handicapped and extenders really are useful.

Lets look at the pros as well as the cons and find an instance where the pros do not outweigh the cons.

[Lordlymight]

this is incorrect. ToS covers abuse, but once it is in the pvp maps (abyss), killing to steal spots is actually allowed. Because you go into the map fully aware that you can be killed for your spot.

Fair enough, I have seen threads and CLs make statements that could be interpreted either way (I would post thread links, but search keeps sending me to the login screen... AGAIN...). I will definitely concede though that it has to be a pretty clear case of abuse in abyss areas to constitute a breach. In my ever so humble defense ;) I was actually referring to those cases where the ToS was breached, I just posed a poor example.

[Gravvi]

Yes you used the CS items to not tank. But do you agree that you could tank with all CS stuff. Charms extenders T3/T4 scrolls. ANd possibly enhance equips. Its possible and thats why i don't like CS. The CS is the reason that people can Solo KKP KQ... KQ are suppose to be done as a team. But since you can just CS urself up no need just solo it and get all the exp.

Edit* Many mages just tank now and leave out the fighter for more exp or another mage so they can kill faster. SO you can't really disagree because you don't do it. It does happen. I can name many of those mages(not going to cuz it could lead to blacklisting)

[Angelxx]

Yes you used the CS items to not tank. But do you agree that you could tank with all CS stuff. Charms extenders T3/T4 scrolls. ANd possibly enhance equips. Its possible and thats why i don't like CS. The CS is the reason that people can Solo KKP KQ... KQ are suppose to be done as a team. But since you can just CS urself up no need just solo it and get all the exp.

Edit* Many mages just tank now and leave out the fighter for more exp or another mage so they can kill faster. SO you can't really disagree because you don't do it. It does happen. I can name many of those mages(not going to cuz it could lead to blacklisting)

It happens. Anything can happen. Clerics can clank and leave out fighters. And they do not need CS for that. I've known archers to tank too. You are talking a minority.

Yes anything can be soloed. Even KKP kq. But did it occur to you that the only reason they can solo it is because no one else was in the kq? If no one else is in the kq and someone wishes to solo it, kudos to them.

All I see are minor excuses to dislike CS based on a minority of situations/events/people. Yes, excuses. Let me give you a VERY BIG REASON to like CS. It makes and keeps the game FREE. That is one hell of an important reason to really like it.

[poolplayermaster]

ahem... might i remind everyone that dont' all classes techincally tank for themselves when soloing after all theres not a fighter around for you mage when your out ice lighting and fire bolting in sand beach or FOM witht he occasional magic missile

and theres not a archer to aoe when you out bash and tripping things in moonlight tomb is there

or maybe your out stunning a pack of rabid orcs theres not a cleric there standing behind you at all times healing you so you don't have to

or archers theres not always gonna be a exceedingly poerful mage whos got your back to aoe with

point is yeah sure all the classes work together great ina party for taking down something but with a properly built chara you dont' need any of htem

case in point my gf had a lvl 26 cleric and took out a lvl 36 fighter at a high enough lvl a mage cna kill jus tabout anyone a fighter can smash things while they are stunned until they die before they can heal and a archer will poison and bleed you to death while hes firing whats up his sleeave

all charas can solo so so what if they want to make there job soloing asier by having some CS help personally i prefer to solo i hate party cuz i liek to get all the drop and exp for myself and if you do see me in a pt its either kq or with my gf and 2 to 3 select frinds or im just being nice and getting someone some good exp while im having some fun

and besides with a party wheres the challenge really you got fighter taking on a couple mobs and cleric healing the fihgter and the archer and mage aoeing together and its over beofre you knw it wheres the challenge and fun in that you don't need a party to play and you don't need another person of another class with you to level all you need is good build and a little extra help fromt he CS doens't hurt either

[Angelxx]

Too true. My mage went mostly solo and was tanking small aoes on her own without her extenders. I only started using extenders for her in her late 50s.

Even my newbie archer who has no cash items on her was tanking from slime kq onwards after the newb fighters in slime kq couldn't or didn't know how to tank.

My cleric solos too and she has no extenders or charms either.

With proper scrolls, equipment and stones/pots anything is possible.

[Gravvi]

You guys are missing my point. A mage shouldn't be able to tank An entire room in Trumpy remains. Yes people do tank i know i have before. And only reason he solo'd and succeeded King Kong phino was due to CS. See how that is unbalanced. I would rather pay 15$ a month and have a balanced game than have a CS and have a highly Unblanced game. Some CS items unbalance the game. I am not saying all and i never said all. Lol clerics tanking is very hard to do.

And for your character in the low KQ solo'ing. Your in teh easiest KQ with 14 other people who do help. Go solo King Slime. Without CS items. What i am saying is before CS only tanks were fighters. Thats because they were hte only ones with enough def to even stand a chance. And no solo'ing isn't tanking. Tanking is taking and holding aggro without dieing. If ur solo your not holding aggro from anyone... Without CS i bet you wouldn't see a single mage tank or an archer like tank what we are currently.

And i am not talking about a minority. Every single person can tank instead of 1 or 2 classes now. Fighters are not needed. Clerics are no longer needed. SO why play them. Archers don't do the dmg mages do. So we should actually have a game of nothing but mages. If you currently look at Fiesta. i am sure 50% of the game are mages. Because mages can tank...deal amazing dmg...can use CS pots. Why have another class if one class can do it all. If CS didn't exist a mage can deal amazing.

Now answer me this Angel and PoolPlayer. Did u play before CS. If not then you won't see the giant imbalance that has occured.

[Angelxx]

Actually you're wrong. My cleric tanks md kq and the only CS item she has is her cute little outfit with crit.

I have no doubt my archer wouldn't be able to kill fast enough to get to king slime before time is up so that argument of yours doesn't hold.

And I think the biggest majority in Fiesta are clerics, not mages.

No I don't think I joined before CS. I joined in Oct but most of my friends are non CS users and I've seen them tank bosses without. Perhaps the only imbalance you see is the fact there are more and you are starting to notice?

Besides, you are missing the point not us. The issue here are people hating CS users for the wrong reasons. Everything comes with its pros and cons. In this instance the pros more than outweigh the cons. You have to take the good with the bad.

Yes, you might be able to spend money on monthly fees to play a game but not everyone can. I would bet more than half of Fiesta would quit if a monthly fee was implemented.

My question then to you is, if you feel shortchanged by CS and are willing to pay for a game, why are you still playing Fiesta? The answer is simple, the pros outweigh the cons.

[Gravvi]

Actually you're wrong. My cleric tanks md kq and the only CS item she has is her cute little outfit with crit.

I have no doubt my archer wouldn't be able to kill fast enough to get to king slime before time is up so that argument of yours doesn't hold.

And I think the biggest majority in Fiesta are clerics, not mages.

No I don't think I joined before CS. I joined in Oct but most of my friends are non CS users and I've seen them tank bosses without. Perhaps the only imbalance you see is the fact there are more and you are starting to notice?

Besides, you are missing the point not us. The issue here are people hating CS users for the wrong reasons. Everything comes with its pros and cons. In this instance the pros more than outweigh the cons. You have to take the good with the bad.

Yes, you might be able to spend money on monthly fees to play a game but not everyone can. I would bet more than half of Fiesta would quit if a monthly fee was implemented.

My question then to you is, if you feel shortchanged by CS and are willing to pay for a game, why are you still playing Fiesta? The answer is simple, the pros outweigh the cons.


I said solo'ing... and succeeding. I am sure your archer can kill all monsters and kill King slime in the time allowed. I never said i hate CS users. I said i hate certain items for certain reasons. And no pro's dont' outweigh the cons in my book. And if they quit thye quit. But alot more people might come because its more balanced. (i never said i feel shorchanged...I use some CS items...) And no i am here because i have friends here.

As for majority being clerics. NO NO NO NO NO. All the clerics made other characters because its boring. I made 3 other characters because clerics get boring.

You can't hate CS for wrong reasons. No reason is wrong. I have reasons why and you can't say they are wrong. Everyone has a reason.. Whether u find it good or not is your opinion. the fact that the game is more imbalanced when teh CS opened can't be proven wrong. Just look at half the guilds.

Anyone can tank a boss. I know that. But with CS anyone can solo a boss...

Just because your friends don't use CS doesn't mean anything. I have been here before CS was out. OMG do u know how balanced the game was. IT was rediculous. Archers were balanced with everyone. +9 were a rarity and awesome. Wars were actually fought with skill...

I will tell you my pro's and con's

Pro's:
1. Easier lvling
2. anyone can have a +9
3. You can look cool
4. You can ride faster
5. dont' lose exp when u die
6. can have more hp/sp/def/str
7. its F2P

Con's:
1. Fighters become useless
2. Imbalance in PVP/wars
3. Too many +9 weapons on teh market
4. Enhancers are richer than everyone
5. Anyone can solo KQ/epic quests
6. Unfair events
7. Enhancing titles are not as cool (couldn't think of a better word)
8. people lvl faster and don't experience the game as much (exp boosts and BoT)
9. smug people...(they are out there.)



List me your pro's and cons. Because what yours are compared to mine are probably totaly different. Mine are based on Balance

[Angelxx]

Don't try sarcasm....doesn't quite work for you. :rolleyes:

No wrong reasons to hate CS? I'll tell you the most common one. Not being able to afford it is one. There are always wrong reasons to do everything.

I wonder though, would you still be on your high horse if your character was a mage instead of an archer. Or did you consider the fact there are also better statted armours now or skills? So what if you joined before CS? Does that make your arguments more valid? I think not.

Whether or not clerics get boring isn't the point. The point is that almost everyone will have a cleric character but not a mage.

Anyway this is starting to bore me. I prefer topics where there are valid arguments to debate. Not just a person's tunnel vision. You are totally missing the points of posts and the thread in general.

Good luck with your fallacies. Who knows, you might start to believe them. :D

[HateUchiha]

You guys are missing my point. A mage shouldn't be able to tank An entire room in Trumpy remains.

And thats were CS im balance begins....

All i have to say is, look at the fighter threads with ''END is useless? Mages tank better??''
Its sad to see what can become of the simple use of an extender or a charm, causes an entire imbalance and usefullness of a certain class common build.

[Gravvi]

Don't try sarcasm....doesn't quite work for you. :rolleyes:

No wrong reasons to hate CS? I'll tell you the most common one. Not being able to afford it is one. There are always wrong reasons to do everything.

I wonder though, would you still be on your high horse if your character was a mage instead of an archer. Or did you consider the fact there are also better statted armours now or skills? So what if you joined before CS? Does that make your arguments more valid? I think not.

Whether or not clerics get boring isn't the point. The point is that almost everyone will have a cleric character but not a mage.

Anyway this is starting to bore me. I prefer topics where there are valid arguments to debate. Not just a person's tunnel vision. You are totally missing the points of posts and the thread in general.

Good luck with your fallacies. Who knows, you might start to believe them. :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAH your funny [/sarcasm].
Not being rich and being able to afford CS is a valid reason to hate something. And i have a mage. I don't play a mage because i can't stand lvl 1-30 with a mage. It sucks. I dont' care how strong they get. It bores me. Look at higher lvls. I promise you if u go KQ majority are mages. Mages are what everyone wants. And if u go to TR parties are looking for clerics due to the lack of ones.

The points your trying to make can't be said because your saying someone can hate CS users for wrong reasons. And hating it because imbalance in game is wrong. WTH are u that blind. ANd don't bother with this thread anymore. You can't state anything of mine is false. You can't do KS solo without CS. CS imballances teh game. That is a fact. One that you can't get into your head.

[Lordlymight]

Pro's:
2. anyone can have a +9

Con's:
3. Too many +9 weapons on teh market

List me your pro's and cons. Because what yours are compared to mine are probably totaly different. Mine are based on Balance

Please excuse my selective quote. Know that I read your entire post. I have been following your conversation with Angel since it started. I could not disagree with you more, but felt that angel was handling it just fine. Unfortunately, your blatant hypocrisy just couldn't be passed over quietly.

I have quoted your two statements on +9 equips. My question is "which is it?"

Is it good that +9s are available for everyone, or is it not?

The reason I ask is that you are screaming about balance and yet here is this aspect of your argument that seems to imply that you would rather it was not balanced based on the lack of availability of enhanced items.

Isn't that the ultimate balance? Everyone is cookie cutter alike. Everyone is the same, with all the same capacities and capabilities. I got an idea, why don't we just make everyone the same class with the same skills and same gear.

You have every right to your opinion, but when debating that opinion, I respectfully ask that you use a degree of logic to build your arguments. There may come a day in the not too distant future where that could have an impact on your real life.

[programmer579]

i am replying to the quote from poolmaster, im not replying on all his other post, im just replying on the one quote that i post, dont have to go pms on me now, i think ur the person that need to chill out.
... and u assume i'm a girl because why?
... you really should take in the context of the situation ... instead of jumping to the end which leads to false conclusions ... and overractions ...

LOL I think you missed the point. It wasn't poolmaster claiming that 'entertainment is wasting money' per se. He was countering someone's claim that Fiesta sparkcash is wasting money as opposed to eg PS3.
... thanks angel ... s/he definitely missed the point =\ ...

~.~.~.~.~
nice catch Lordlymight on that contradiciton ^_^

[Angelxx]

Thank you Lordlymight but I wouldn't bother. Sometimes people are so blinded by their own prejudice that they do not accept or attempt to accept the facts. I sincerely hope someone will come forward in this thread who can present a more sensible and debate worthy point of view. I have yet to see a valid reason to hate CS users.

So I will stand by what I said before, those who hate CS users are simply experiencing a serious case of 'sour grapes'.

It doesn't matter to them that without CS, the game wouldn't be FREE.

I agree with Soulfrit that there is no need to thank CS users because CS users are not doing it for them. However, there is absolutely no need to hate CS users either.

[PsychicGuru]

lol I just used the cash shop. xD I bought the Beauty Shop Coupon and now I'm about to go and buy that red eye and the blue mile thingy. lol lvl 9+ equips here I come! x3

Edit: How do you use the BSC? How do I send it to my character or whatever I have to do?

[innerresol]

because they only care about the cs users they dont care about anyone
else they dont lissen to the none payers the go off the cs users
there way nicer to them and like they dont really lissen to wut we say

[Gravvi]

Please excuse my selective quote. Know that I read your entire post. I have been following your conversation with Angel since it started. I could not disagree with you more, but felt that angel was handling it just fine. Unfortunately, your blatant hypocrisy just couldn't be passed over quietly.

I have quoted your two statements on +9 equips. My question is "which is it?"

Is it good that +9s are available for everyone, or is it not?

The reason I ask is that you are screaming about balance and yet here is this aspect of your argument that seems to imply that you would rather it was not balanced based on the lack of availability of enhanced items.

Isn't that the ultimate balance? Everyone is cookie cutter alike. Everyone is the same, with all the same capacities and capabilities. I got an idea, why don't we just make everyone the same class with the same skills and same gear.

You have every right to your opinion, but when debating that opinion, I respectfully ask that you use a degree of logic to build your arguments. There may come a day in the not too distant future where that could have an impact on your real life.

Some things can be good for some reasons and bad for other reasons. If you want me to go detailed I will be more than happy.

Good reasons for You having a +9 weapon.
1. Faster killing
2. Shiny weapons
3. Possible titles.
4. Possible easier pvp(depends if ur opponent has one)

Bad reasons
1. Trying to sell it would be harder and would cost less than if there was no CS
2. Everyone has the title so, no point in enhancing for that
3. (This is not all but some people) Will only party you because you have an enhanced weapon.
4. Possible underpwered in PVP(depends if you have one or your opponent does)
5. People begging for you to enhance.
1-5 as a whole. All leads to imbalance. Community wise(money,pvp,pvm)

People use to wear enhancement artist or God because they risked it. It used to be a title only few people had because it was a risk. Now that everyone has it. Its a pointless title. I refuse to wear it because people just see me as an enhancer now.

Thank you Lordlymight but I wouldn't bother. Sometimes people are so blinded by their own prejudice that they do not accept or attempt to accept the facts. I sincerely hope someone will come forward in this thread who can present a more sensible and debate worthy point of view. I have yet to see a valid reason to hate CS users.

So I will stand by what I said before, those who hate CS users are simply experiencing a serious case of 'sour grapes'.

It doesn't matter to them that without CS, the game wouldn't be FREE.

I agree with Soulfrit that there is no need to thank CS users because CS users are not doing it for them. However, there is absolutely no need to hate CS users either.

As for that. I don't hate CS users. DANG can't you read. I hate some items available...I HAVE STATED I USE CS ITEMS TOO. SOME ITEMS CAUSE AN IMBALANCE. YOU MISSED THAT EVERYTIME I SAID IT. MAYBE YOU CAN READ IT IF ITS ALL CAPS.

NOW WITH THAT GOOD BYE. I POSTED MORE REASONS ON WHY THEY CAN BE BAD THAN YOU POSTED FOR NOT HATING THEM.

Just because it makes the Game F2P doesn't mean thats the only reason you should like them.

Example Number one. IGN Piggy. This character always talked about how good he was. He was only good because he was rich and used extenders and didn't really use skill.

This game is being balanced around CS...Notice almost all the events GM's are shouting GET UR BOT SO YOU DON"T LOSE EXP. GET UR CS POTS. If this game wasn't balanced or revolved around CS you would get. Notices. Please log out if you don't want to risk losing exp. Stock up on HP and sp pots.

Just because you don't like my reason does not mean they are crappy reasons or pointless. Each one has a purpose and its valid. I don't agree with you shouldn't hate CS because it makes the game free. It might imbalance the game but who cares.

[Angelxx]

lol I just used the cash shop. xD I bought the Beauty Shop Coupon and now I'm about to go and buy that red eye and the blue mile thingy. lol lvl 9+ equips here I come! x3

Edit: How do you use the BSC? How do I send it to my character or whatever I have to do?

Go to your cash inventory section and right click on your BSC. It will go into your normal inventory. Then go to Vietree and select your preferred look. Once you confirm the changes your BSC is automatically used.

because they only care about the cs users they dont care about anyone
else they dont lissen to the none payers the go off the cs users
there way nicer to them and like they dont really lissen to wut we say

LOL how so? Can you substantiate your claims?

I'm a CS user and I have to say I'm now wondering why I did not receive this so-called preferential treatment. Is the treatment based on how much cash we have spent? If that is the case, I should be treated like a queen already. :D

[Angelxx]

As for that. I don't hate CS users. DANG can't you read. I hate some items available...I HAVE STATED I USE CS ITEMS TOO. SOME ITEMS CAUSE AN IMBALANCE. YOU MISSED THAT EVERYTIME I SAID IT. MAYBE YOU CAN READ IT IF ITS ALL CAPS.

NOW WITH THAT GOOD BYE. I POSTED MORE REASONS ON WHY THEY CAN BE BAD THAN YOU POSTED FOR NOT HATING THEM.

I'm going to borrow someone's quote I saw in their siggy. I think it was Serric's.

Don't raise your voice. Improve your argument.

Good bye. :D

[Gravvi]

I'm going to borrow someone's quote I saw in their siggy. I think it was Serric's.

Don't raise your voice. Improve your argument.

Good bye. :D

I wasn't raising my voice. I was just making what i said more visible.

And there are some things going around that outspark treats some people who are constant CS buyers special treatment. ANd many people who use it say they won't get banned because they will look at the Cash shop logs. I find that a give or take. I know some people who got banned and use CS and i know some people who haven't been banned yet.. Tho i think they should have.

As for my arguement. I placed mine. But you haven't come up with any reasons besides it makes the game free.. Thats not really an arguement. They are going to come out with merchandise. So they can make their money there. SO why have CS now. See my point. If they make their money in merchaindise why have something that obviously kills the balance of the game.

[Angelxx]

LOL like I said, if CS users were treated according to the amount of cash they spend, I would be treated like a queen already. Or would I be elevated to Fiesta God status? :D

I can assure you that I managed to get a CS user jailed because their language. Or perhaps your argument for this is that I spent more?

Why haven't you also taken into consideration the number of non CS users who have not been banned? Considering the ratio of CS: non CS users, I can assure you that there are more non CS users who have not been banned as opposed to CS users.

It is obvious from your latest argument about merchandise instead of CS that you do not know much about business. The merchandise they sell will never be able to generate the same kind of profit that CS does.

Bear this in mind: Outspark is a business. As with all businesses, they are in it for profit. There are 2 ways such companies can make money basically. One is to take monthly fees, the other is to provide CS items. Outspark has chosen the latter. And unless they include items that are going to attract buyers, they might as well not go the CS route.

As for your claim to my lack of arguments, you missed it with your tunnel vision. For the arguments I did not address, I simply did not find them worthy of attention. The rebuttals against them were simply evident without the need to point out. However, since you have problems understanding that, I shall try to clarify some points for you.

One thing I would like to draw to your attention. There are not many enhancers in the game as is obvious by the number of people who are looking for one. The reason is simple. It is not a very profitable way to make game money.

Your arguments are not sound BECAUSE you have targetted the minority of CS users. Some of your arguments are actually contradictions as has been pointed out.

As Lordlymight said, you claim that CS has led to an influx of +9s in the market. Yet on the other hand you claim that CS users have the advantage of +9 eq. Now if it is widely available in game now, how then are CS users with +9 gaining an advantage?

You also claim that the influx of +9s are making the prices drop. Surely lower prices means more people are able to afford +9s? Lower prices will also mean those enhancers will be making less money. So how can you be complaining that they are getting rich and yet complain the prices are dropping?

Let's look at the last few points you raised about +9s as an example:

Bad reasons
1. Trying to sell it would be harder and would cost less than if there was no CS
2. Everyone has the title so, no point in enhancing for that
3. (This is not all but some people) Will only party you because you have an enhanced weapon.
4. Possible underpwered in PVP(depends if you have one or your opponent does)
5. People begging for you to enhance.
1-5 as a whole. All leads to imbalance. Community wise(money,pvp,pvm)

Point 1.
How can selling +9s be harder without CS? It would be rarer and hence more in demand.
How can it cost less without CS? Again, it would be rarer and so the price will be higher.

Point 2.
Pardon me but didn't you say that CS creates and imbalance because not all are CS users? If that is the case, how does EVERYONE have the enhancement titles? Also, why do you think that everyone having the title is imbalance? Surely only a select few having it would be imbalance????

Point 3.
Again, I point out the fact this is a minority. It's like calling country X a bad country if a murderer was from that country. Doesn't make sense to judge the majority by the actions of the minority.

Point 4.
There will be some imbalance there for sure. However there will also be imbalance for those who use different tier scrolls or wear different statted eq or even have different level buffs. Heck! Even different levels give you an imbalance. You can never get perfect balance. And again, you are talking a minority.

Point 5.
This one is a joke. People beg for buffs, for silver, for anything. What is the difference between that and begging for enhancement? Is this even worthy of a point on its own?

Now I hope that my taking the time to show you why your arguments were so obviously invalid has given you the opportunity to reflect on what you have said. I could tear apart the rest of your arguments too but like I said it would be a waste of time. You have done nothing but contradict your own arguments which effectively voids their validity.


Edit: Thanks for the - rep. Didn't realise not agreeing with someone was a good reason for -repping but now I know. :D
Oh but wait....what's the point of knowing? Rep means nothing to me. :p

[poolplayermaster]

Pro's:
1. Easier lvling (if you think its easier think again exp being crappy won't amtter no matter how storng you are if you can still only kill a certain mosnter faster then you used to)
2. anyone can have a +9 ( not true either sure alot of people do but i don't see everyone with one either most don't even like +9 they liekt he looks of the toehr lvls)
3. You can look cool ( and unique)
4. You can ride faster (get to where your goign quick isntead of getting bored)
5. dont' lose exp when u die (who wouldn't like that console rpgs you dont' lose exp when you die so why would someone who moves to a mmo want to )
6. can have more hp/sp/def/str (you can get that from scrolls enhancing and buffs anything else is extra)
7. its F2P (half the people would quit if it wasn't inclduing me and im a CS user)
Con's:
1. Fighters become useless (yeah ok what KQ or partys have you been in besides i prefer not to party anyways most the time unles its with friends or a KQ , in every KQ im in i always hear shouts for "mock" or "stun" and "whos gonna tank" and everytime i see a fighter doing the tanking and i've yet to see anyone but a fighter or a cleric tank GGK)
2. Imbalance in PVP/wars (its imbalanced as it is unles you are fighting a carbon copy of yourself its imbalanced depending on what you equips are greens with stats, your rings if you have a ingame pet, any enhancements, what you stat points are on, what you skill points are on, or even what class you are.)
3. Too many +9 weapons on teh market (you know how many unanswered calls i see for someone who is wanting to buy a +9 of anythign be it wep sheild or equips , and i still sold a lvl 30 +9 hammer and cleric sheild for 900s each
4. Enhancers are richer than everyone (not true i kow someone who doesn't enhance and actually pays others to enhance who has tons of gold laying around, where did they get there money from easy making scrolls or stones and selling those or selling the drops or greens they picked up that they dont' use or need)
5. Anyone can solo KQ/epic quests (yeah right i have a hp/sp 150% extender and i couldn't solo any KQ i've been in with it other then the easiest of them all which is mara and kign slime and i didn those without the extender, gold hil honeying and robo however having that extender is what saves my bacon sometimes form having a horde of mobs smash me in a few hits)
6. Unfair events ( please tell me how are they unfair you either kill farm escort find or just be there and answer questions whats unfair about that and i have only seen 2 CS events and they were for earth day and getting a GM buff and i been playing since november last year)
7. Enhancing titles are not as cool (couldn't think of a better word) {+9'ing a lv 1 wep is so easy for geting these titles so its not like itshard anyways to get them neither is the merchant titles just buy 5000 float sotnes and sell them back one by one costs you about 15 silver easy as pie to get}
8. people lvl faster and don't experience the game as much (exp boosts and BoT) {lvl faster not even close i barely lvl once a day sometimes and that exp boost isn't that big a help on a high lvl and no need for a BoT if you don't die}
9. smug people...(they are out there.) { yeah there are but so what there are smug people about having a better green equip then you or being on a higher lvl trust me i know a guild mate used to be one of them and i kicked him out for it}

Good reasons for You having a +9 weapon.
1. Faster killing (yeah its faster but you still get hurt jsut the same unless its a sheildor equip)
2. Shiny weapons (sure they look nice but so do costumes)
3. Possible titles. (theres so many titles out there that they don't matter much anyways)
4. Possible easier pvp(depends if ur opponent has one) {thats always been there CS or no CS}
Bad reasons
1. Trying to sell it would be harder and would cost less than if there was no CS (not really i sold a lvl 30 + axe 10 seconds after i shouted i was selling it and made 850s after only spending about 50s on stones to make it 800s profit FTW? )
2. Everyone has the title so, no point in enhancing for that (not many people enhance for the title anyways they enhance for the stat boosts, and no everyoone has it cuz they can't afford the rising price of some stones or cna't make them to do the enhancing)
3. (This is not all but some people) Will only party you because you have an enhanced weapon. {i have never seen this happen ever wether i was using my +9 or having some fun with a 1h or 2h that had no enhancement at all}
4. Possible underpwered in PVP(depends if you have one or your opponent does) { your contradicting yourself againa nd i refer to my statement on the previous one }
5. People begging for you to enhance. ( you get begged to enhance jsut for having it regardles of if you made it yourself ornot just deal with it i do and have been nice enough to do one or two for a freind )
1-5 as a whole. All leads to imbalance. Community wise(money,pvp,pvm) {i see no imbalance only imbalance is in skills and thats been there since the begging anyways}


and ty again lordlymight for pointing out something that i missed when reading the first time through
and if everyone became a mage then noone could kill eachother other then on a higher lvl and personally i hate mages as it is for there overwhelming power of skills and there slow capabilitys at lvlig thats why mine is still at lvl 11

things are heating up really enjoying this debate from some of the intelectual and the non-intelectual as well as the ligcal and illogical thinkers but i want to see mroe opinons form more then jsut a few people




One thing I would like to draw to your attention. There are not many enhancers in the game as is obvious by the number of people who are looking for one. The reason is simple. It is not a very profitable way to make game money.


missed that one my first tiem through and indeed it is not profitable it can cost between 30 to 40 dollars real money to +9 a t3 wep or equip and you only get about 2g for it thats more then the gold stores prices if you pay attentiont o there advertising you wuld know that or if you one of the people who have baught and didn't get caught, i kow the cost personally cuz i made such a item and received 2g i wouldn't do it agiant hough you lose alot more real money to +9 for someone else then to +9 for yourself and sell it when yoru done using the equip or wep or just selling it to make money

[Gravvi]

i have asked to have it closed since you guys are calling people non-intelectual, illogical , And if you think about it, your blacklisting indirectly. Your putting every CS user out there to be judged in public. You have already flamed me. So ok. Post what you want i have said more than enough.

And as for the special treatment. I don't believe in that. I just said people think that. GEEZ READ

[rtan9838]

If someone says "you use CS items, you are a cheater" ONE MORE TIME.... some body gonna get a hurt real badd.... somebody...

Having money is NOT cheating. To reiterate what I said before numerous times, just because people like us who make or have a money source are privileged, it does not make us cheaters.

Are you going to call your boss a cheater in life because he has more money than you? And have a better house and a better car?

Are you going to call your friend a cheater because he can buy more icecream in one day than you can afford in one year?

Are you going to call your parents cheaters because they can afford to shelter and feed you and you can't yourself?

Are you going to call your neighbour a cheater because his dog is more expensive than yours and has a diamond collar while your dog has nothing?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then how can you possibly call people with money cheaters because we buy in game items that you cannot afford? This totally baffles me, the logic is so flawed that I cannot understand how people can possibly call other people with money/more money, cheaters.

[iLoveless]

I don't know why people get so upset over little things. All it comes down to is you either hate the Cash Shop or you don't. Which ever it may be, keep it to yourself. You guys are forgetting that this is just a game. A game in progress if I might add and there will always be imbalances whether it be actual game play or from Cash Shop.

No, you can't call a Cash Shop user a "cheater". It's not the use of the items that determines an individual as a cheater because it is provided by the game developers. A cheater would be someone modifying game files to take an advantage over the rest. Without CS users who do you think is going to keep the game running? The ads?

[Gravvi]

I love some CS items. I like the costumes and houses. And of course BOT.

[Empathys]

@Empathys

A couple of dds/tanks who have high defence due to CS is hardly going to effectively unbalance the whole game.

+9 isn't a sole CS thing. I know people who can +9 items w/o eyes.

As for cs items being useless for clerics, I disagree. First and foremost there is the aesthetics. Some items simply are for looks. As for the crit, being a crit lover, every little bit helps. I'm not going to even mention the rest of the CS items that are useful like defence charms, extenders, etc.

And I honestly do not think being a hypocrite is something to be proud of.

Firstly, I'm not proud of being a hypocrite. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I quite appreciate it. No, really.

For Clerics I said they have the least to gain. I never said they were useless. I am aware that some items are only for looks. I am also aware of Defense Charms, HP Extenders, ect., ect.. I'm not a troll as you seem to think. For crit to be useful you are probably a a soloing Cleric. Which is fine if you are. But if you're not and you have a suit with say, 5% crit added, it's pointless.

+9s aren't solely a CS product. Obviously they're not. Reds and Blues only make it easier to get them. But when you have full sets of high End/Spr +9 gear it starts to add up, no? It's not that only "a couple of DDs/Tanks" having Cash Shopped-to-the-max stats. It's that about 1/5 or more of them are. Take any training spot for example. A Mage/Cleric or Tank/Mage duo can effectively suck up the entirety of A.Stonies by themselves. Or a whole room in Abyss by themselves. (And in Abyss if they're easily killing off the whole room it will be awfully difficult to PK them out. Supposing you did, they'd bring back 15 of their pals so it would be moot anyways.)

I don't know what server you're on but on Bijou in the Abyss whenever I'm on it seems that there's a duo or trio in each of the 4 spots. Why? Because they can with the aid of CS items. Now, if you want to use CS items that's your business and I won't complain. I'm just making the point that with them using CS items it enables players to do things they are otherwise incapable of doing. Which is what I tried to subtly point out in my first post but it seems to have been overlooked.

[PsychicGuru]

Go to your cash inventory section and right click on your BSC. It will go into your normal inventory. Then go to Vietree and select your preferred look. Once you confirm the changes your BSC is automatically used.



LOL how so? Can you substantiate your claims?

I'm a CS user and I have to say I'm now wondering why I did not receive this so-called preferential treatment. Is the treatment based on how much cash we have spent? If that is the case, I should be treated like a queen already. :DThanks for the help!

[poolplayermaster]

i have asked to have it closed since you guys are calling people non-intelectual, illogical , And if you think about it, your blacklisting indirectly. Your putting every CS user out there to be judged in public. You have already flamed me. So ok. Post what you want i have said more than enough.

And as for the special treatment. I don't believe in that. I just said people think that. GEEZ READ

first off i have not claled any anything nor was it in a insulting way that is aid it i suppose if someone said you were irrational or unreasonable or irresponsible you wul say im insulting you just cuz they are negative words and there is a such thing as logically thinking and thinking illogically and there are diffrences between being intelectual and non-intectual as opposed to being smart or stupid there is a big diffrence there are intelectuals who are stupid and nonintelelctuals who are smart yes these are both oxymorons of each other but it is true

things are heating up really enjoying this debate from some of the intelectual and the non-intelectual as well as the ligcal and illogical thinkers but i want to see mroe opinons form more then jsut a few people

and as for blacklisting did you even bother to read that topic on it

blacklsting equals accusing a player or guild by name ont he forum of doing ksing leeching etc




back to being on topic though, people get upset about it cuz we are simply using something that is part of the game to make our gameplay better and we are insulted call n00bs and told that we have no life that is what we get upset about

i may know diffrent but till theres no call for it, that would be like me going up to a GM and going "hey you cheating n00b why don't you work like the rest of to get that cool stuff and awsome character"

since technically they do work for it literally work, and they test the game out after patches and maitnances before it comes back up would you besuprised if a GM was upset by that?

[Angelxx]

i have asked to have it closed since you guys are calling people non-intelectual, illogical , And if you think about it, your blacklisting indirectly. Your putting every CS user out there to be judged in public. You have already flamed me. So ok. Post what you want i have said more than enough.

And as for the special treatment. I don't believe in that. I just said people think that. GEEZ READ

LOL read, understand, lather, rinse, repeat.

Stop contradicting yourself if you wish to make a sensible argument.

You have the tendency to ignore what others have written and then claim others have not read what you said.

We have given you reasons why your arguments are invalid. Try to counter those arguments as people do in debates instead of avoiding them and accusing people of not reasing.

I love some CS items. I like the costumes and houses. And of course BOT.

Let's see here. By your logic then wouldn't this create imbalance too?

Costumes if crit or defence still give you an advantage as in possible faster kills due to crit and defence helps you take damage a little better.

Houses allow you to heal faster which gives you more time to spend on killing.

BOT gives you the advantage of not having to grind back the 1% (which can be substantial at higher levels).

As I said, there is always imbalance but the imbalance is pretty insignificant.

Firstly, I'm not proud of being a hypocrite. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I quite appreciate it. No, really.

For Clerics I said they have the least to gain. I never said they were useless. I am aware that some items are only for looks. I am also aware of Defense Charms, HP Extenders, ect., ect.. I'm not a troll as you seem to think. For crit to be useful you are probably a a soloing Cleric. Which is fine if you are. But if you're not and you have a suit with say, 5% crit added, it's pointless.

+9s aren't solely a CS product. Obviously they're not. Reds and Blues only make it easier to get them. But when you have full sets of high End/Spr +9 gear it starts to add up, no? It's not that only "a couple of DDs/Tanks" having Cash Shopped-to-the-max stats. It's that about 1/5 or more of them are. Take any training spot for example. A Mage/Cleric or Tank/Mage duo can effectively suck up the entirety of A.Stonies by themselves. Or a whole room in Abyss by themselves. (And in Abyss if they're easily killing off the whole room it will be awfully difficult to PK them out. Supposing you did, they'd bring back 15 of their pals so it would be moot anyways.)

I don't know what server you're on but on Bijou in the Abyss whenever I'm on it seems that there's a duo or trio in each of the 4 spots. Why? Because they can with the aid of CS items. Now, if you want to use CS items that's your business and I won't complain. I'm just making the point that with them using CS items it enables players to do things they are otherwise incapable of doing. Which is what I tried to subtly point out in my first post but it seems to have been overlooked.

That is really strange. My cleric whose only cash item as I pointed out is her cute little crit outfit (yes she's a str cleric) either solos in abyss or duos with her archer friend who also only wears a cute little crit outfit.

I'm sure you will agree that those cute little crit outfits do not give us the so-called advantage from CS. So how then can we solo/duo in abyss?

Before my mage started using her extenders, she was soloing or duoing in abyss as well.

This is what I don't understand. Just because someone can solo something, does not always mean they can only do it with the aid of CS.

Another query I have is, how do you know they had the aid of CS? As far as I know the usage of CS items do not show.

@<he who shall not be named due to blacklisting rules (but you know who you are)> =P

Kindly contribute your arguments instead of simply -repping me calling my arguments 'blind and idiocy' without presenting any logical or sensible support of such claims.

[Lythari]

Well, here is my perspective...

It is your money to do with as you see fit. If you wish to purchase CS items, then do so. If not, then don't. I could purchase CS items, but have not been compelled to do so outside of a few exceptions.

Where most problems with the CS arise is with people who either cannot afford the items or are children who do not have their own bank accounts and steady income. They feel denied of the opportunity to get some of the special items that give regular CS users an 'unfair advantage'; which I do not fully understand this argument as 'advantage' would insinuate superiority over another player. However, seeing that Fiesta is not a PvP heavy MMO, there is no real 'advantage' over other players to be gained outside of optional circumstances and guild wars. That is where I feel the CS hate begins. There are also certain events where only CS users can participate, but such is to be expected: they are helping fund Outspark, and are being rewarded for their contributions.

Overall, it's simply a matter of people feeling deprived of the 'full experience' by not having access to CS items. However, that is with anything anywhere and isn't worth concern until it begins to directly interfere with other people's gaming. Whether you are an active Outspark patron or not, I honestly couldn't care less. I have other things to do with my time than worry about what people do and do not spend their money on.

[Empathys]

That is really strange. My cleric whose only cash item as I pointed out is her cute little crit outfit (yes she's a str cleric) either solos in abyss or duos with her archer friend who also only wears a cute little crit outfit.

I'm sure you will agree that those cute little crit outfits do not give us the so-called advantage from CS. So how then can we solo/duo in abyss?

Before my mage started using her extenders, she was soloing or duoing in abyss as well.

This is what I don't understand. Just because someone can solo something, does not always mean they can only do it with the aid of CS.

Another query I have is, how do you know they had the aid of CS? As far as I know the usage of CS items do not show.

You've once again missed the point of my post. Having 1 or 2 items from the Cash Shop makes a negligible difference in gameplay. It's when you start to stack on +9 gear, Def. Charms, Str Charms and all the other performance enhancing gear that you run into "problems" with gameplay.

Also note that it's not impossible to solo or duo in the Abyss without them it certainly is harder which is why I'm going to assume you got HP Extenders and Def. Charms, no?

Here's what I've been trying to say: Using extreme amounts of CS items gives players abnormal abilities outside of the usual realm of gameplay.

Clear enough now? Using 1 or 2 doesn't really make a difference. Just like it should be.

It's also pretty easy to spot an extensive CS user. Mages with 4k+ HP taking 200 or less damage? CS user. Tanks are a bit harder to spot but observing over a period of time helps to distinguish it.

[Angelxx]

You've once again missed the point of my post. Having 1 or 2 items from the Cash Shop makes a negligible difference in gameplay. It's when you start to stack on +9 gear, Def. Charms, Str Charms and all the other performance enhancing gear that you run into "problems" with gameplay.

Also note that it's not impossible to solo or duo in the Abyss without them it certainly is harder which is why I'm going to assume you got HP Extenders and Def. Charms, no?

Here's what I've been trying to say: Using extreme amounts of CS items gives players abnormal abilities outside of the usual realm of gameplay.

Clear enough now? Using 1 or 2 doesn't really make a difference. Just like it should be.

It's also pretty easy to spot an extensive CS user. Mages with 4k+ HP taking 200 or less damage? CS user. Tanks are a bit harder to spot but observing over a period of time helps to distinguish it.

No and I repeat, no. All my cleric and my archer friend has is the cute little outfit from CS shop. The one you see in my siggie with crit. We either solo or duo in abyss and we never had any problems with it. No charms, no BoT, nothing except the outfit. Even my mage before she got her extenders soloed in abyss without anything, not even a CS outfit.

That is why I cannot understand the reasons behind saying that CS gives an unfair advantage.

Note: most of the time my cleric does not even use scrolls except aim in abyss. My mage used to use only t1 scrolls.

As for extensive CS users, there really aren't that many of them. Sometimes perhaps you assume they are because you think only extensive CS users can do what they appear to be doing.

Taking my mage as an example again, she now uses extenders, extra stone capacity usually when soloing in abyss. No charms at all. However, she also uses T3 scrolls and gets a t2 buff and she has 4k hp. I don't think you would consider extenders, stone capacity and bot extensive (advantage wise) so how then is she able to do what you assumed only heavy CS boosted players can do?

My mage does wear CS outfit too, usually with crit or normal ones. Would that automatically make people miscontrue that she was heavily CS advantaged?

What I am offering as a counter argument is that there are fewer CS extensive players than you think and those few does not make it a good reason to hate CS or CS users.

[Soulfrit]

You've once again missed the point of my post. Having 1 or 2 items from the Cash Shop makes a negligible difference in gameplay. It's when you start to stack on +9 gear, Def. Charms, Str Charms and all the other performance enhancing gear that you run into "problems" with gameplay.

Also note that it's not impossible to solo or duo in the Abyss without them it certainly is harder which is why I'm going to assume you got HP Extenders and Def. Charms, no?

Here's what I've been trying to say: Using extreme amounts of CS items gives players abnormal abilities outside of the usual realm of gameplay.

Clear enough now? Using 1 or 2 doesn't really make a difference. Just like it should be.

It's also pretty easy to spot an extensive CS user. Mages with 4k+ HP taking 200 or less damage? CS user. Tanks are a bit harder to spot but observing over a period of time helps to distinguish it.

Just in reply to your comment.

Harder without charms to duo?
I find it easy as anything, my cleric can easily handle 10-20 karasian (sp?) soliders in abyss (mind you without lag) while fighting away on them or duo with my archer friend and neither of us have a +++ on any piece of armor or use CS items..


I've had friends with full CS items and +9 gear and still die, purley because they don't know how to play their char.
Mages with 4k+hp? T3 scrolls + lvl 59 or 75 HP/sp buff can have over that much, heck I had over 3K the one time I got that done.
It all revolves around the character using the charms, it may give some people an advantage but alot of the people going around...still end up dying regardless due to having no idea what they are doing.

[Angelxx]

If someone says "you use CS items, you are a cheater" ONE MORE TIME.... some body gonna get a hurt real badd.... somebody...

Having money is NOT cheating. To reiterate what I said before numerous times, just because people like us who make or have a money source are privileged, it does not make us cheaters.

Are you going to call your boss a cheater in life because he has more money than you? And have a better house and a better car?

Are you going to call your friend a cheater because he can buy more icecream in one day than you can afford in one year?

Are you going to call your parents cheaters because they can afford to shelter and feed you and you can't yourself?

Are you going to call your neighbour a cheater because his dog is more expensive than yours and has a diamond collar while your dog has nothing?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then how can you possibly call people with money cheaters because we buy in game items that you cannot afford? This totally baffles me, the logic is so flawed that I cannot understand how people can possibly call other people with money/more money, cheaters.

Apparently to some people, it is a perfect 'logical' reason.

Like rich people.. they bother me....

Not being rich and being able to afford CS is a valid reason to hate something.

[Gravvi]

umm i didnt' say it was cheating...now please stop attacking me when what i said had nothing to do with that post. All you are now doing is starting a flame war.

[Gravvi]

LOL read, understand, lather, rinse, repeat.

Stop contradicting yourself if you wish to make a sensible argument.

You have the tendency to ignore what others have written and then claim others have not read what you said.

We have given you reasons why your arguments are invalid. Try to counter those arguments as people do in debates instead of avoiding them and accusing people of not reasing.



Let's see here. By your logic then wouldn't this create imbalance too?

Costumes if crit or defence still give you an advantage as in possible faster kills due to crit and defence helps you take damage a little better.

Houses allow you to heal faster which gives you more time to spend on killing.

BOT gives you the advantage of not having to grind back the 1% (which can be substantial at higher levels).

As I said, there is always imbalance but the imbalance is pretty insignificant.



That is really strange. My cleric whose only cash item as I pointed out is her cute little crit outfit (yes she's a str cleric) either solos in abyss or duos with her archer friend who also only wears a cute little crit outfit.

I'm sure you will agree that those cute little crit outfits do not give us the so-called advantage from CS. So how then can we solo/duo in abyss?

Before my mage started using her extenders, she was soloing or duoing in abyss as well.

This is what I don't understand. Just because someone can solo something, does not always mean they can only do it with the aid of CS.

Another query I have is, how do you know they had the aid of CS? As far as I know the usage of CS items do not show.

@Atmor

Kindly contribute your arguments instead of simply -repping me calling my arguments 'blind and idiocy' without presenting any logical or sensible support of such claims.

I know what ur saying. But opinions can't be invalid. your saying that yourself... As for me liking those CS items. I dont' buy the crit or def ones. I dont' buy houses. I just like seeing them all around fiesta. And as for BoT. I think i only got one from buying a menian outfit with nothing on it. In that special sale. And for the record. Yes those are imbalances. The reasons u stated. But those imbalances are minor compared to charms extenders. and perfects. The reason Without CS +9 wouldn't be harder to sell would be because not everyone has the money. Most people have their money because they once sold a +9 item or an enhanced item. Or they were actually smart and farmed and or sold all greens they could. But back to my point. Before CS was released. A +9 lvl 20 weapon cost as much as a +9 lvl 50 or 60 weapon now. At lvl 20 its hard to get 2 gold so it would be harder to sell.

As for your comment towar Atmor. I dont' see you having an arguement. Your just saying People who don't like some items are hypocrits or they have sour grapes. Or saying we are blind and shouldn't have a reason. THo all reasons are reasons none the less. I stated valid points on why I personally don't like some items. Just because you dont' agree with them doesn't mean they are invalid. But then again i have said more things than you. THo PoolPlayer asked me about one thing. So i answered. About +9 being a good and bad thing. Its like being capped.

GOOD.
Your Max lvl woot

BAD
Nothing to do anymore

Now for you angel.. Please why do you like CS items. Because your reason. Its a free game isn't enough for me. Everything i stated adds up. What you stated was that one thing and nothing more. SO mine overweighs yours atm. And what you consider a miniority. That minority is overpowering the majority.

*edited* The way your are wording things becomes a flame. Saying my opinion isnt' valid. Thats not a debate. Thats just a flame. Thats saying my opinion doesn't matter.

And you attacked me in that post. you said i guess for soem people its a perfect logical reason and those posts of mine have nothing to do with her post.

[Angelxx]

umm i didnt' say it was cheating...now please stop attacking me when what i said had nothing to do with that post. All you are now doing is starting a flame war.

Kindly note that I quoted what you said in relation to the person's comment.

I didn't realise that posting counter arguments and disagreeing with a person's post is classed as an 'attack' or a 'flame'. I guess we all have different definitions of what a debate is and what the forum's 'general discussion' thread is about.

[Angelxx]

I know what ur saying. But opinions can't be invalid. your saying that yourself... As for me liking those CS items. I dont' buy the crit or def ones. I dont' buy houses. I just like seeing them all around fiesta. And as for BoT. I think i only got one from buying a menian outfit with nothing on it. In that special sale. And for the record. Yes those are imbalances. The reasons u stated. But those imbalances are minor compared to charms extenders. and perfects. The reason Without CS +9 wouldn't be harder to sell would be because not everyone has the money. Most people have their money because they once sold a +9 item or an enhanced item. Or they were actually smart and farmed and or sold all greens they could. But back to my point. Before CS was released. A +9 lvl 20 weapon cost as much as a +9 lvl 50 or 60 weapon now. At lvl 20 its hard to get 2 gold so it would be harder to sell.

Let's make sure we understand you right this time. It is okay to have items which reate imbalances because they are minor imbalances but it is not okay to have items that create huge imbalances despite the fact that only a minority uses those items extensively?

As for +9s, you do realise that alot of people buy those items without being cash users? I have a friend in game who does not and has never used CS items and he has saved over 20g from farming, vending and producing?

Did it occur to you that back when CS wasn't released, green drops were also super rare? I know for sure the green drops were only fixed a couple of months from when I started.

I am a heavy CS user, but mostly for 'cosmetic' stuff and yes, eyes/miles for my +9s. I hardly ever sell my +9s because I pass them to my friend after I am done with it. Explain to me then why I can afford to buy a +9 if I wanted to?

This is another point I do not understand. Making +9s more widely available is creating imbalance? Wouldn't imbalance be +9s being exclusive and elite? If anything, the availability of +9s now is balancing things.

[Lordlymight]

umm i didnt' say it was cheating...now please stop attacking me when what i said had nothing to do with that post. All you are now doing is starting a flame war.

Dude, didn't you say you weren't going to post anymore on this topic?

I'm all for debate, so feel free to continue, but I have a personal pet peeve about that kind of stuff. If you say you are leaving the discussion, do so, otherwise don't say you are leaving. its really very simple...

[lordofthesick]

The cash is a good thing for the most part i have more of a problem with the people that use it more then the shop itself

Ive come across plenty of cash shop users who are nice ppl but there are also those who spend over a hundred bucks on thier charater full +9 gear charms and so on ,then they get really ****y calling all in there path noobs and threating with guild wars ( if not just actually warring someone) and just talking trash in general

Other then that the cash shop is all good , having an option to pay and getting stuff for it is better then having to pay to play

[Gravvi]

Dude, didn't you say you weren't going to post anymore on this topic?

I'm all for debate, so feel free to continue, but I have a personal pet peeve about that kind of stuff. If you say you are leaving the discussion, do so, otherwise don't say you are leaving. its really very simple...

Oh i meant posting to angel...

*edited* all of angels posts are blocked for me...

[malcom633]

u r right. i am with u

[crikkykun]

the only i don't like about is the way you have to put money on there and the fact of not so many permannent items. like the tycoon one, that would be a good one to be permaent or ....
etc...just commenting .....don't mind me i probably won't ever read this thread again....

[Angelxx]

The cash is a good thing for the most part i have more of a problem with the people that use it more then the shop itself

Ive come across plenty of cash shop users who are nice ppl but there are also those who spend over a hundred bucks on thier charater full +9 gear charms and so on ,then they get really ****y calling all in there path noobs and threating with guild wars ( if not just actually warring someone) and just talking trash in general

Other then that the cash shop is all good , having an option to pay and getting stuff for it is better then having to pay to play

Chances are that these people are like that with or without their CS items.

I've met equally obnoxious people who are not CS users so we can't really say that CS is to blame for it. A person's character/attitude is not shaped by CS. They are who they are and sometimes all it takes is a very tiny thing to trigger it.

the only i don't like about is the way you have to put money on there and the fact of not so many permannent items. like the tycoon one, that would be a good one to be permaent or ....
etc...just commenting .....don't mind me i probably won't ever read this thread again....

Well I think they are addressing this issue as there are more permanent stuff now. I guess it just takes time. I wish for more permanent stuff too. I also hope they resolve the cash item storage issue. I have permanent outfits that are simply wasting slots in my inventory and I think it is unfair to be penalised for buying permanent items. :(

I prefer CS over monthly payments because it allows those who cannot afford either to still play the game. Also we pay for what we want rather than just pay a monthly fee. So if we want more, we pay more. I can't say anything can be fairer than that.

It seems to me the CS haters are mostly those who have the mentality 'I can't afford it so I don't want you to have it'.

Take the KKP kq argument for example. If no one else is in the kq, I don't see how someone being able to solo it is considered an unfair advantage. It is not like those who can solo it get to kick everyone else out of the kq. It seems to me the main thing is jealousy. These people can solo KKP kq because they have CS as opposed to those who are bristling because they can't do the same.

[lordofthesick]

very true angelxx but i just hate seeing people like that have charaters that are super powerful simply because they spent money on it. Doesnt mean they have more skill then anyone else , not that fiesta requires alot skill but with a premiumed up charater u just target and spam skills and poof its dead!

Idk just hate it when someone gets a hold of daddy's credit card buys a bunch of Cashshop stuff then talks down to others. Some of us have bills to pay.....

But as i said before the cash shop is good people, letting power go to thier head isnt

[Lordlymight]

Oh i meant posting to angel...

*edited* all of angels posts are blocked for me...

Fair enough. But I would ask you to consider one thing. By blocking Angel, you have admitted that you are incapable of completing your debate with her. Remember, a debate does not have to end with anyone changing their mind. If you and your opponent both put forward valid strong arguments and you both feel that your arguments are correct, then the debate can end with an agreement to disagree. Becoming frustrated or angry because you did not "win" will only lead to trouble. Worse, no matter how good your previous arguments are, they become perceptively invalidated by such an undignified withdrawal.

I think that your conversation with Angel could have come to a much more amicable resolution if you had known these things, so keep them in mind for future debates. It could save you a lot of frustration.

the only i don't like about is the way you have to put money on there and the fact of not so many permannent items. like the tycoon one, that would be a good one to be permaent or ....
etc...just commenting .....don't mind me i probably won't ever read this thread again....

I would like to see more permanent items as well. But this is a simple value argument. I, much like anyone else, like to get the most for my money. Unfortunately, businesses like to get the most money for their product. Hopefully we will see some middle ground in the future. Until then, I will happily pay the roughly $2.50 a month to wear my crit glasses because I like the look. It works out to a whole lot less than the standard p2p.

very true angelxx but i just hate seeing people like that have charaters that are super powerful simply because they spent money on it. Doesnt mean they have more skill then anyone else , not that fiesta requires alot skill but with a premiumed up charater u just target and spam skills and poof its dead!

Idk just hate it when someone gets a hold of daddy's credit card buys a bunch of Cashshop stuff then talks down to others. Some of us have bills to pay.....

But as i said before the cash shop is good people, letting power go to thier head isnt

Trust me brother, there are plenty of people who go to a lot of trouble to earn the money they spend on cash shop items that act like jerks. It isn't where the money comes from, its the person at the keyboard. If the person doesn't have enough respect for his or her self to have respect for others, it won't matter what power level their character is, they will find a way to show it in game (ie: kill stealing, drop stealing, mob training, power leveling, begging for buffs/money/plvl/enhancement, etc etc etc)

[HateUchiha]

Take the KKP kq argument for example. If no one else is in the kq, I don't see how someone being able to solo it is considered an unfair advantage. It is not like those who can solo it get to kick everyone else out of the kq. It seems to me the main thing is jealousy. These people can solo KKP kq because they have CS as opposed to those who are bristling because they can't do the same.

Are u serious? Your saying thats NOT and imbalance??? being able to solo an entire KQ? wow....just wow

Kingdom quest are ment to be worked as a team, the mobs are harder(even harder than the doungen mobs) so u HAVE to work together. If u get pass that only due to the CS that IS imbalancing the game.

Somebody just aoes half of an map that lots of others grind in just because he has charms extenders +9ed all his armor and has cs pots as an added bonus so he WONT die. What are u going to say? ''Oh well, he can do it, we just need to spend 40$ so we can grind just like him, that seems fair.''

-_- come on....CS imbalances the game highly, the only reason that people dont realize/care is because they are paying outspark and deserve special treatment. But nobody can deny it doesnt imbalance the game, yes if CS didnt imbalance it nobody would buy it. But the fact that people are saying it dosnt imbalance the game need help.

[RyaikenDune]

1. Ahem....This is important

Outspark has to pay they devs at Ons Ons Soft (a.k.a, (Inter)National Meanie Cooperaion) to program in updates, fixes, fun events, etc.
What funds this payment? Cash Shop.
Outspark also has to pay (Inter)National Meanie Copoperation for the Fiesta copyright, etc.
What funds this payment? Cash Shop.
So unless you never ever want anymore fixes/updates/sometimes-fun events...or even in extreme situations, never want to play fiesta again, I'd advise all to stop ripping on Cash-Shop users.

2. Ahem...this is slightly less important

A couple of you have been violating forum rules. Angelxx, you are double and triple posting and I think there were a couple of swear words too.

3. Ahem....this is the least Important (a.k.a My opinion)

Well, in a sense, CS Items do cause an imbalance. It can be commonly acknowledged that a level 30 a +9 weapon, +9 armours, crit suit, HP and SP extenders, charms, etc can solo in Collapsed Prison while one without it cannot.

On the other hand, CS can be used to balance things out as well.
eg. The paper think mage enhances his/her gear to solo. Let's face it. The game isn't very friendly to solo mages.
eg2. The weaker cleric uses a +9 hammer and a charm to help him solo. Or a super-potion (i forgot what they're called) to help him/her with the healing. Because heal upgrades stop at a point.
In this sense, they are balancing out kinks in the game.

Thirdly, CS items are vital for the Fiesta economy. Without enhancers, the gold supply in Fiesta would drop dramatically. A lot of people would be poor. Something close to 50 gems would slowly be taken out of circulation through stone and non-green armour purchases. Let's face it, there's only so much money one can make out of NPCing things. Drop farmers would lose an occupation as many people would not longer have the capital to buy mats.

In theoretical terms, CS can be removed from the game...and the game would still function. Practically, the game would collapse.

And back to the topic, wasn't this thread about CS-user-haters? You can't hate a person because he/she has an advantage over you. A slight envy, yes. Remember, buying CS items doesn't make a person snobbish. That person was snobbish to begin with. CS just helped get him moving.

Oh...BTW, being able to solo a KQ doens't practially pose an advantage. You still get the same exp from the rewards and the mob-exp is the same as soloing in say- FoS....sorry. Imbalanced, techincally....yes, I can show off- I soloed a KQ! Practically, there is no benefit.

[Lordlymight]

Well I think they are addressing this issue as there are more permanent stuff now. I guess it just takes time. I wish for more permanent stuff too. I also hope they resolve the cash item storage issue. I have permanent outfits that are simply wasting slots in my inventory and I think it is unfair to be penalised for buying permanent items. :(

I agree with the storage issue. I never wear the "boop" pants that came with the summer outfit (mostly because I don't think guys should wear capris... come on). I went ahead and destroyed them to keep them from taking up space. It made me wonder what I would do if, let's say, I had two outfits that i liked.

I prefer CS over monthly payments because it allows those who cannot afford either to still play the game. Also we pay for what we want rather than just pay a monthly fee. So if we want more, we pay more. I can't say anything can be fairer than that.

In addition, based on conversation with fellow cash shop users, those that do use the cash shop usually pay quite a bit more than they would on a monthly pay schedule. I was helping a younger player last night who wanted to spend $250 of her birthday money on sparkcash. That's almost 17 months of p2p (assuming the standard $15 a month for a single account). She already had a pretty fully decked out character too, so it wouldn't be the first cs items she got. One of my guildies renews 3 or 4 things every month for 30 days. at 8k or 9k each.

Needless to say, I don't think outspark is hurting financially...

[shinataku02]

I find nothing wrong with cash shop usage. If you want extra benefits, you pay for it. There will never be a completely free game. There are costs involved to running an online game. Cash shop based games, at least, give you the option of playing for free or paying for a few extras.

Fiesta's cash shop is the least money-hungry cash shop I've seen in any game I've played. In other games, even though it's optional, you can't get too far in the game without heavily spending in the cash shop. In Fiesta, you don't really need to buy things in order to have fun. I'm thankful for that, personally.

[Angelxx]

2. Ahem...this is slightly less important

A couple of you have been violating forum rules. Angelxx, you are double and triple posting and I think there were a couple of swear words too.

LOL forum police? Isn't going off topic violating forum rules too? :p

If you think I have violated forum rules, please forward your complaints to the CLs for their action.

As for your accusation that I used swear words. I would ask you to provide evidence of that or I expect a retraction and an apology for making a false allegation.

Are u serious? Your saying thats NOT and imbalance??? being able to solo an entire KQ? wow....just wow

Kingdom quest are ment to be worked as a team, the mobs are harder(even harder than the doungen mobs) so u HAVE to work together. If u get pass that only due to the CS that IS imbalancing the game.

I think perhaps we have different definitions for 'game imbalance'. In my opinion, if our game is not disadvantaged by it, there is no imbalance.

KQ: as stated a person can only solo if no one else goes for the kq. Yes, CS items enables them to solo it BUT non CS users are not disadvantaged by this. They do not lose exp or the chance to kq. Their game itself isn't affected by this. So the game isn't imbalanced.

Somebody just aoes half of an map that lots of others grind in just because he has charms extenders +9ed all his armor and has cs pots as an added bonus so he WONT die. What are u going to say? ''Oh well, he can do it, we just need to spend 40$ so we can grind just like him, that seems fair.''

Likewise a full aoe party of non-CS users can come in and do exactly the same. Also bear in mind that +9 armour is not exclusive to CS users. Thus the problem here isn't really CS.

-_- come on....CS imbalances the game highly, the only reason that people dont realize/care is because they are paying outspark and deserve special treatment. But nobody can deny it doesnt imbalance the game, yes if CS didnt imbalance it nobody would buy it. But the fact that people are saying it dosnt imbalance the game need help.

CS users are given an advantage. There is no doubt about it.

However, the advantage it gives does not imbalance the game itself.

[Belthazzar]

i have 2 accountsplus my bofriends so if i put money on one i put money on all 3 and it gets costly. I enjoy my cash shop items but think to myself "if im paying 50$ for this i could afford 2 WoW accounts " So i dont hate the ppl that use them i just think it gets costly FAST....

[HateUchiha]

KQ: as stated a person can only solo if no one else goes for the kq. Yes, CS items enables them to solo it BUT non CS users are not disadvantaged by this. They do not lose exp or the chance to kq. Their game itself isn't affected by this. So the game isn't imbalanced.

Your missing the entire point of an imbalance to balance, i can say that much.
But my real question: ..What are u saying??? Im not saying that everyone is going to be equal but balance IS balance. You cant just say its not bothering others because it is. Mages with use of CS can have just as good def as full end fighters. THAT does effect others, and iv stated in my other post, it in return becomes useless to that group of ppl to play that build/class.
''They do not lose exp or the chance to KQ'' That of course isnt going to happen with any case and pretty much has nothing to do with this topic. exp loss is the same for all, Blessing of Teva only stops exp loss, in no way does it effect any others. So no CS item harms exp in a negative way.
Pls explain this in a diffrent way because its not making sense to me.



Likewise a full aoe party of non-CS users can come in and do exactly the same. Also bear in mind that +9 armour is not exclusive to CS users. Thus the problem here isn't really CS.

i think i remember saying ''He +9ed his armor'' that requires Red Eyes which is a CS item that alows u to enchance your weapon without it breaking.
And LOL! It shouldnt take a full party to = to 1 person..try again

CS users are given an advantage. There is no doubt about it.

However, the advantage it gives does not imbalance the game itself.

I think u need to read a few more post...

[Cloud-Strife1984]

The Cash Shop is o.k,but rhino is %$&/(&( xDxD^^
Pls Raccoon come back XD

[Angelxx]

Your missing the entire point of an imbalance to balance, i can say that much.
But my real question: ..What are u saying??? Im not saying that everyone is going to be equal but balance IS balance. You cant just say its not bothering others because it is. Mages with use of CS can have just as good def as full end fighters. THAT does effect others, and iv stated in my other post, it in return becomes useless to that group of ppl to play that build/class.
''They do not lose exp or the chance to KQ'' That of course isnt going to happen with any case and pretty much has nothing to do with this topic. exp loss is the same for all, Blessing of Teva only stops exp loss, in no way does it effect any others. So no CS item harms exp in a negative way.
Pls explain this in a diffrent way because its not making sense to me.

Sigh....let's just say your idea of imbalance to the game is not the same as mine. I simply cannot explain any clearer than I already have.

Basically what I have highlighted is the point I am trying to explain. But I guess you don't see it. As for it not being in-topic. I beg to differ. It has alot to do with the topic.

i think i remember saying ''He +9ed his armor'' that requires Red Eyes which is a CS item that alows u to enchance your weapon without it breaking.
And LOL! It shouldnt take a full party to = to 1 person..try again



I think u need to read a few more post...

I'm sorry to tell you something which I believe you already know. +9 is possible without CS.

As for the 1 party = 1 person, read clearly. You are saying that a person with CS can do something which affects gameplay. What I am telling you is that a party of non CS users can affect gameplay in the same way.

Read
Understand
Lather, rinse, repeat.

[HateUchiha]

Sigh....let's just say your idea of imbalance to the game is not the same as mine. I simply cannot explain any clearer than I already have.

Basically what I have highlighted is the point I am trying to explain. But I guess you don't see it. As for it not being in-topic. I beg to differ. It has alot to do with the topic.
1st of all, exp loss is the same for everyone, that doesnt effect imbalance.

2nd of fine, we see imbalance in a diffrent way, but im only known to one kind of imbalance, so please explain what diffrent imbalance u have, and if u cant explain it then i guess u really have no point.



I'm sorry to tell you something which I believe you already know. +9 is possible without CS.
Dont give me that LMAO! i wanna see a t3 weapon get enchanced to +9 with no Red eyes, ud be lucky if it got to +3. And also, with this statement uv made proves u would take any little thing to compare to CS not being imbalanced. And thats not cool at all..

As for the 1 party = 1 person, read clearly. You are saying that a person with CS can do something which affects gameplay. What I am telling you is that a party of non CS users can affect gameplay in the same way

Read
Understand
Lather, rinse, repeat.

''You are saying that a person with CS can do something which affects gameplay. What I am telling you is that a party of non CS users can affect gameplay in the same way'' ......xD
u realize u said the exact same thing as me? Your still comparing a party to 1 person.

u need to read..understand and repeat.

[Lordlymight]

It seems we are having some problems with definitions and clarifications. I am going to try and help a little since the arguments are starting to lose some of the necessary respect needed for constructive debate.

The topic is quite simply (paraphrased for ease): "Do you love or hate the cash shop and why?"

Therefore if someone says, "I hate the cash shop for x, y, and z" and another says "I love the cash shop for a, b, and c" and the two conflict, than it is still well within topic for a debate to ensue over the differing points of view. If someone disagrees with you, it is not flaming. If you disagree with someone, it is not trolling. There is no winner or loser. If you are part of a debate where you are given a new perspective and decide that your original point of view is no longer applicable, then you have still won, yes?

Now one of the reasons that has been given for hating the cash shop (using hate as the opposite of love, not as it applies to despising something) is imbalance.

Imbalance is a constant source of debate and rant for just about any game. It can refer to so many things (i.e. how fast you level, how easy to win in pvp, how important you are to group play, how much of the action you can participate in, the list is extensive) that to just say 'imbalance" broadens your debate to nigh limitless directions.

For instance, one thinks it is imbalancing that cash shop users can buff out with real dollars and perform feats that a non-cash shop user cannot. Another feels that cash shop is imbalancing because it brings preferential treatment to those players that utilize sparkcash. Another thinks it is imbalancing because it introduces a demand in the game that would not be there if the shop did not exist. While I, and others, might disagree, all are quite valid points of view and can and should be debated intelligently. What is necessary is that the debates include good arguments and that the players are respectful of each other. As a secondary necessity, you must define your issue thoroughly if you are debating a word with so many possible meanings.

So, let's all eat a little crow and calm down and get back to what has turned out to be a very hot topic that is worthy of the intellectual energy it is being given.

[Angelxx]

1st of all, exp loss is the same for everyone, that doesnt effect imbalance.

2nd of fine, we see imbalance in a diffrent way, but im only known to one kind of imbalance, so please explain what diffrent imbalance u have, and if u cant explain it then i guess u really have no point.

I made my point. Just because you chose not to see it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Perhaps you didn't see it the last time so I'll quote it here again for your benefit.

I think perhaps we have different definitions for 'game imbalance'. In my opinion, if our game is not disadvantaged by it, there is no imbalance.

Dont give me that LMAO! i wanna see a t3 weapon get enchanced to +9 with no Red eyes, ud be lucky if it got to +3. And also, with this statement uv made proves u would take any little thing to compare to CS not being imbalanced. And thats not cool at all..

I've seen T3 weapons enhanced to +9 without eyes. Too bad you haven't.

No I have no idea how they do it. Personally I have only succeeded in +9 tier 1 without eyes. Naturally those who did manage didn't tell me their secret. :p

Even if we follow your argument that a person has a +9 which was enhanced by using CS, you are aware the these weapons are then resold in the market for game money. There are many players who have +9 now without having spent a single cent on CS.

''You are saying that a person with CS can do something which affects gameplay. What I am telling you is that a party of non CS users can affect gameplay in the same way'' ......xD
u realize u said the exact same thing as me? Your still comparing a party to 1 person.

Yes I think even a blind person can see that I said 1 person and 1 party. However, try to read the whole sentence this time rather than selective words. I also wrote other words in that sentence that clearly explains it. And I have no idea what you mean about me saying the same thing as you.

u need to read..understand and repeat.

Well, that appears to be what you are doing, except you seem to miss out 'understand'.

[Gravvi]

now see thats what im saying and besides who wants there lvl 44 fighter to look exactly like every other llv 40 fighter who chose the same face and hair whent hey made it

i sure don't i liek my white tux black shades demon marks and crazy red hair

Well Poolplayermaster. Think of this. If you payed 15$ a month along with everyone. These option would probably be available rather than paying CS for them all. The possibility of these still being CS after ur payint 15$ is kinda wierd. So they might just make Vietry a npc who u go to style. You would probably spend IG money for the tuxes and stuff. So either way you would probably be able to change your look more than 1 time if you payed 15$ a month.



Thirdly, CS items are vital for the Fiesta economy. Without enhancers, the gold supply in Fiesta would drop dramatically. A lot of people would be poor. Something close to 50 gems would slowly be taken out of circulation through stone and non-green armour purchases. Let's face it, there's only so much money one can make out of NPCing things. Drop farmers would lose an occupation as many people would not longer have the capital to buy mats.


That is what i was trying to say before i couldnt' figure out wording. If enhancers weren't around and there wasn't as much money. Items would cost less. And people would do what ur suppose to do when u need money. Go farm saps or something.

Roumen scrolls before CS were 100c
elde was 200c
uruga was 10S but that was because you had to die to get to uruga.. Good times.
elrue 30-45c each.

Greens were alot rarer too.

[Ryokosha]

Yeah lol. I put my Elderine scrolls into my shop for 500c because I had one more free slot thinking nobody would buy them this overpriced and they actually sold. o.o'

[HateUchiha]

I made my point. Just because you chose not to see it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Perhaps you didn't see it the last time so I'll quote it here again for your benefit.
i saw that, and everything i said imbalances the game too =/
Players are basicly the game, with no players is no game...





I've seen T3 weapons enhanced to +9 without eyes. Too bad you haven't.

No I have no idea how they do it. Personally I have only succeeded in +9 tier 1 without eyes. Naturally those who did manage didn't tell me their secret. :p

Even if we follow your argument that a person has a +9 which was enhanced by using CS, you are aware the these weapons are then resold in the market for game money. There are many players who have +9 now without having spent a single cent on CS.

yea too bad i havnt lol, id really like to see that...

And here u are again talking about something completely diffrent...
Yea ok so the guy sells his +9 items, but what does that have to do with him soloing half the area? That next person who gets those +9s might not use charms and extenders to the extent he did.



Yes I think even a blind person can see that I said 1 person and 1 party. However, try to read the whole sentence this time rather than selective words. I also wrote other words in that sentence that clearly explains it. And I have no idea what you mean about me saying the same thing as you.



Well, that appears to be what you are doing, except you seem to miss out 'understand'.

lol?

Likewise a full aoe party of non-CS users can come in and do exactly the same

from what i see here u say a full party has to = to this one guy. after that u say:

As for the 1 party = 1 person, read clearly. You are saying that a person with CS can do something which affects gameplay. What I am telling you is that a party of non CS users can affect gameplay in the same way.

u said the exact same thing, it effects gameplay which is the point im making.

[Gravvi]

ok i am suprised its allowing me to see quotes from her. But HAte. I get what ur trying to say. I have been trying to say it for the past 2 days. She fails to see it. So let me try again. TO everyone.

If everyone could buy CS and become that one person. Whats the point of parties. If you can do it urself. And no a party of people vs that 1 person is an imbalance. Here is why. If 1 person can do that. He is now getting 5X more exp than you are. He is getting more drop. More money. Capping faster. Where as you have to be in a party and split the items, which makes ur money, and exp. And work 10 times harder. THat is not balanced. The party of 5 doesnt' make an imbalacne because you have to sacrefice THing IG.

[HateUchiha]

ok i am suprised its allowing me to see quotes from her. But HAte. I get what ur trying to say. I have been trying to say it for the past 2 days. She fails to see it. So let me try again. TO everyone.

If everyone could buy CS and become that one person. Whats the point of parties. If you can do it urself. And no a party of people vs that 1 person is an imbalance. Here is why. If 1 person can do that. He is now getting 5X more exp than you are. He is getting more drop. More money. Capping faster. Where as you have to be in a party and split the items, which makes ur money, and exp. And work 10 times harder. THat is not balanced. The party of 5 doesnt' make an imbalacne because you have to sacrefice THing IG.

Thank you!

Thats exactly my point, its not balanced at all.

[Lordlymight]

Well Poolplayermaster. Think of this. If you payed 15$ a month along with everyone. These option would probably be available rather than paying CS for them all. The possibility of these still being CS after ur payint 15$ is kinda wierd. So they might just make Vietry a npc who u go to style. You would probably spend IG money for the tuxes and stuff. So either way you would probably be able to change your look more than 1 time if you payed 15$ a month.

But now you have excluded the hundreds of players who do not buy sparkcash.

I think this is what Angel was trying to get at.

This game is free to those that WANT it to be free. They may miss out on a few benefits, some of which may be substantial, but they still get to play. They also still have full functionality. They may or may not require a party to do some things, they may need help with epic quests, they may look very similar to their peers, they may have to rely more heavily on items available in the game, but in the end, they still get all the same quests that you or I do as cash shop users.

I hope that clarifies the point a bit. I'm not saying that you are wrong, merely giving you another point of view to consider.

If everyone could buy CS and become that one person. Whats the point of parties. If you can do it urself. And no a party of people vs that 1 person is an imbalance. Here is why. If 1 person can do that. He is now getting 5X more exp than you are. He is getting more drop. More money. Capping faster. Where as you have to be in a party and split the items, which makes ur money, and exp. And work 10 times harder. THat is not balanced. The party of 5 doesnt' make an imbalacne because you have to sacrefice THing IG.

But everyone CAN buy sparkcash. There is no rule that certain people are not allowed to buy it. It comes down to whether you have the means (or will) or not. This is true of a lot of things. I have a very powerful computer. It cost a considerable amount of money. I enjoy an extremely fast internet connection. I have the luxury of free time to spend gaming. All of these things greatly enhance my gameplay. So is it unfair that the character next to mine in the game is being run by someone on an emachine with barely enough bandwidth to stay connected, let alone lag-free? Someone that has to carefully budget his or her time to play. Someone that has real life obligations that can keep them from being allowed to play for weeks or months at a time.

No, these are "life" things. Access to sparkcash is just as much a "life" thing as any of the others I have mentioned.

Now to address the parties aspect of you post:
I am a sparkcash user. Many of my guildmates who I enjoy playing this game alongside are sparkcash users. But... at least half the guild is not. If we see a guildmate on, its a guarantee that unless there is some very specific reason to solo, a party will be formed up pretty quickly.

My point is this. Cash shop users party with cash shop users and non-cash shop users all the time. Even if it is possible to solo for days, part of the fun of the game is the interaction between players (otherwise, why not just play a single player game). I have seen many arguments about "the end of the player party" and none of them seem to address this very basic hitch. Everyone can solo, everyone can party. It may be harder or easier depending on a thousand factors, but in the end... we party because its part of the fun of the game...

Now lets address the imbalance aspect of your post. Here I am assuming that you are using the "imbalanced because one can level faster" definition.

This may seem a bit contrite, but so what? Is the game imbalanced because I started 3 months ago, but the guy who started when Apoline was a brand new server capped ages ago. I told someone in game this the other night. Experience is always available. The world will never run out of monsters. How long you take to get that experience matters not at all so long as you are enjoying yourself. I can see your point in that if I started on the same day as someone else and they were leveling twice as fast as me because they were using items, that could be disheartening. But think about what they are giving up in exchange for that rapid leveling.

I work very hard for every dime I make. If I take some of that very hard earned money and I buy something with it, I expect to get a little something commensurate to what I paid. If ole boy next to me is leveling at the same speed, having an easier time at fighting monsters and other players, able to give themselves a unique look, etc for free. Well then, its fairly unlikely you could say I was getting any value for the money that I went through a ton of trouble to earn.

Now I will grant that there are likely a select few who do nothing for their money. Whether it be overly generous parents, a particularly easy job, or some other method of acquiring wealth unavailable to the rest of us. They sacrifice very little for their premium items. But the truly wealthy are exceedingly rare and I'm quite certain only constitute a very small population of any game. They may cause problems, they may create some imbalance, but in the end, they are rare. The rest of those that enjoy cash shop items should not be penalized due to their indiscretion and privilege. Obviously, I understand you are not asking for the abolition of the cash shop, but I hope you can see where I am going with this.

[Rzpect]

Well Lordy have u played this game BEFORE CS came out? If you didn't then you really really don't know what it feels like before, everything was so cheap and hard to get. Economy was going down hill...back then 300s was a pain the butt to make a guild..but now its nothing right..
IF you did play before CS came out you'd be in the "inbalance side" because everybody worked so hard to get what they wanted before. I'ts our CBTers pain but now look how easy it is with CS..you can enhance any item without breaking them, get extra exp blah blah

[takillya]

Well put!!!! What I spend in cash shop is money that I would be throwing away somewhere else. Even if I left the game tomorrow, (that would never happen) and lost items from cash shop, I would not regret cuz I enjoyed using them. Great opening list of why do ppl hate cash shop user. So many good things said there. Especially the +9 gear that is made using blue and red mile, at somebody's expense, then when item is sold, somebody got for NO CASH!!!! So why do ppl hate cash shop users? So far only response are from ppl who love cash shop...............

[Gravvi]

Ths game is supposidly age 13+ because it is an online game. Being that. Most 13 year olds will not have a Credit card or a debit card. Or a bank account for that matter. They will not have a paypal. So not everyone can purchase Sparkcash. I am lucky that my mom plays this game and will purchase CS.

About paying a standard 15$ to play. Yes some people wouldn't have to leave. But then everything in the CS might be able to be purchased IG. So then it wouldn't be imbalanced. Such as outfits hair. Maybe even perfects. But one thing it would get rid of are the younger aged people who...Misbehave because of their maturity lvl. There would be less Gold spammers. And if were to actually pay. outspark could legally sue those gold spammers, like WoW did. The game would become I am sure smaller community wise, but alot of those spammers, bots, gold spammers would most likely leave because whats the point of paying for a game u don't play or make money on.

But like i said I know many people who would rather P2P a balanced game than a F2P highly unbalanced game. I am still here because its beta and i still want to see if the GMs/DEVs change anything about these imbalances.

I am discussing not just one can lvl faster. But because of CS people are having the amount of money one should not have at their lvl. Look at Enhancers. They are the richest in the game. Because of those few enhancers Prices of return scrolls went up amazingly. The price of +9's went down.

I do admit i have used perfects. but that is only because i have made a +8 weapon without CS. I have gone finished it to +9 with CS but thats because the effect is so much cooler :P. I have used lvling packs(not payed by me).

And imo opinion its unfair for my sister to play Fiesta on that crappy cpu she has and i play on a laptop that is 95% lag free.

And to your response to If he can solo section. Yes he can solo and triple exp. But when there are events such as the Legend of Isya event. First 3 of each class to cap gets a prize. Thats where its unfair in my opinion.

See only things i actually want gone from CS are charms and extenders, and some of the packs. I can see why they are there yes to make the game easier. I was told that the original fiesta isn't gonna be lvling this slow. Because they had to decrease exp so we actually play and find bugs. Well with people purchasing Exp boosts..Lvling packs. They dont' end up doing what the purpose of beta is. This is a game based around CS. But not everyone can get CS. My 13 year old sister can't.

Now if they could make CS items tradeable. This game would be more balanced lvling wise. PVP wise. But not when it comes to money. It will once again be thrown farther out of balance.

(off topic)This is something i have yet to understand. Why are people paying for a game that isn't finished. Thats like spending 200$ to test the 1st disk of FFVII. I always thought game testers got payed...

Ok srry if this doesn't make sense i lost my train of thought 4 or 5 times making this and i was skipping around.

*edit agree with you Rzpect.

As for Takillya. Its not that we hate CS its that some items caused an imbalance. The +9's do make a change since you can use Perfects. I have stated before. Prices would be different.

[Lordlymight]

Well Lordy have u played this game BEFORE CS came out? If you didn't then you really really don't know what it feels like before, everything was so cheap and hard to get. Economy was going down hill...back then 300s was a pain the butt to make a guild..but now its nothing right..
IF you did play before CS came out you'd be in the "inbalance side" because everybody worked so hard to get what they wanted before. I'ts our CBTers pain but now look how easy it is with CS..you can enhance any item without breaking them, get extra exp blah blah

No, my perspective is entirely from the post-cash shop era. I don't see how that changes the point of view much though. Allow me to use a real world example to emphasize.

Prior to the civil war in the United States, slave ownership was commonplace in the south. Slave labor provided a huge benefit to those that owned them, but at the cost of degrading a fellow human being. The slaves, on the other hand, worked very hard and were given food and shelter.

This, in my opinion, is congruous with pre-sparkcash. Players worked very hard for minuscule returns. The game was seldom updated. And the ultimate inequity, luck, determined who was the biggest on the block. So greens were rare, that meant that very few people had greens. What was said back then if one of those lucky players used their awesome green equip in PvP, or who leveled faster than those that were not lucky enough to find that green equip?

I don't mean to single you out, but sometimes I get the impression that those that played before the cash shop, hate the cash shop more because it is the new thing rather than because it causes some perceived imbalance.

Its the classic "old man" argument "Back in my day, sonny..."

[Gravvi]

Ok this is a quote which is the reason so many people preCS and some postCS dislike CS




Did you know? After every supposed sale of cash shop items, the price increases by a small factor when they say it returns to its "regular" price? Its not something you normally notice, but Jerath has been keepign track of it the whole time.


Right now it seems as if this game is being balanced for cash shop users. Now let me tell you this, not everyone is comfortable with disclosing financial information online. I'll tell you this much, if you ever has the misfortune of having your credit card number, or worse, debit card number stolen, you'd be reluctant to ever use an online-payment option.

I'll let you decide when your close to 10,000 dollars poorer in real life whether or not you'd become paranoid.


Jerath is simply stating what most people feel. Promotion of the cash shop before major bug fixes. Promotion of the cash shop through cash-shop only events. A rebalanced game requiring cash shop to meet the status quo.

You dont seem to understand kissing, that if many of the non-cash shop users leave, then Teva's community as a whole is affected.

If many high levelled players leave, you'll see less and less people able to produce things like scrolls. You'll see an inflation on rare items as they begin to be farmed less and less.

I do feel the same way. Its something that affects the game.

And as for being preCS. The game was much different. IT was actually balanced. All classes were balanced. Noone had Gold or Gems. Everyone got the same amount of exp. You had to party to survive.

The chances to +9 were the same for everyone. Te chances for greens were the same to everyone.

[poolplayermaster]

1.Ths game is supposidly age 13+ because it is an online game. Being that. Most 13 year olds will not have a Credit card or a debit card. Or a bank account for that matter. They will not have a paypal. So not everyone can purchase Sparkcash. I am lucky that my mom plays this game and will purchase CS.

2.About paying a standard 15$ to play. Yes some people wouldn't have to leave. But then everything in the CS might be able to be purchased IG. So then it wouldn't be imbalanced. Such as outfits hair. Maybe even perfects. But one thing it would get rid of are the younger aged people who...Misbehave because of their maturity lvl. There would be less Gold spammers. And if were to actually pay. outspark could legally sue those gold spammers, like WoW did. The game would become I am sure smaller community wise, but alot of those spammers, bots, gold spammers would most likely leave because whats the point of paying for a game u don't play or make money on.

3.But like i said I know many people who would rather P2P a balanced game than a F2P highly unbalanced game. I am still here because its beta and i still want to see if the GMs/DEVs change anything about these imbalances.

1.a 13yo can still get it by asking there parents to either pay it for them via there allowance if they haveo ne or by getting money orders and sending them in anyone no matter what age can by them , or my getting an ultimate game card at any walmart are everywhere therefore everyone has access to them

2. do you really think anyone would have that kidna of ingame money to spend on buying all the items they get ingame not to mention if they were ingame items everyone would have them and it wouldn't be so special.
also its a game it should be free for all to play not limited to those who have money to afford a monthly membership i don't play WoW that reason cuz i don't want to pay to play a game im perfectly happy with the free games no matter what i don't like about them

3. no matter what game it is even if its a pay to play that doesnt' exactly make it balanced there still could be design flaws in a game that make it unbalanced




poitns being is if someone like me does not like to party all the time the why shouldn't they be able to solo if they are say a mage who we all know are mad eof paper and die way to easily unless they have buffs scrolls enhancements greens or other such things to help them

just because its a mmo that has party capabilities does not mean everyone shoulld have to party to be able to get soemwhere int he game i've gotten everything on every character i have without partying at all and when i do party its in a kq if they even bother to invite me which sometimes they don't and the other times i party its jsut for fun and usually with my gf cuz really shes the only one i can stand to play with cuz she doesn't party me jsut to get what shes wants then leaves me in a high lvl area with nothing but a mess of mobs to kill me


some peoples points may be valid but as for the econamy yes things have gotten more exspensive but guess what people make more money

its jsut liek a real life economy when you make more money the cost of living goes up

in the US minimum wage is set to go up again in july and the cost of living will also go up so as for the economy goes its jsut like real life and is personall refreshing compared to other games whos economyis so out of wack that just as an example

you see someone selling a lvl 20 item in fiesta that is +9 going for 2g where as it is near impoosible at that lvl to even make that kind of money to buy it now they only go for aobut 350s to 500s sold mine for 500s and if i wanted i could actually afford to buy one i jsut prefer to make mine

so please tell me how do you see the economy being messed up in game personally it hink its gotten better over the past 6 months i've been playing and when you can use alchemy to amke or unmake things if you dont' want to work for the skills to do so the you gotta pay peoples prices for those who did

[Gravvi]

WHy play a MMO if you don't want to play with other people. And like you said 13's can do that IF they have an allowance or their parents will allow it. what about those kids who dont' get an allowence or their parent won't buy it. And alot of game cards at walmart do not work for CS.

CS is the main reason for imbalance in this game. How can you observe a game that is being altered by some and not by others. How can Outspark Fix character balance when only half are using CS items.

If you guys will please read this post
http://outspark.com//forums/showthread.php?t=76117

This shows that CS is affecting some of the gameplay and people leaving.

Look at Ragnarok Online. One of the most balanced games. You have to P2P the original version. You don't get special treatment. The game is more balanced than any game i know of. If you want to donate extra money. you get an item that has no affect on the game. Just an item showing ur a donater.

Its not unfair that the prices dropped. Its unfair that people now can get rich from Enhancing and that dropping prices.

Yes when minimum wage goes up so does cost of living. But your spending the same ration.

That same thing applied before CS. But since CS. Items prices are dropping for some things and raising for others. That doesn't make sense does it.

But you know someone selling a +9 weapon for 1.2G lvl 20 was great back then. You had to go farm in AEW if u wanted to buy it. It cost so much because of rarity. Look at Fiesta now. Whats rare a blue that anyone can get in KQ. They are not that rare anymore. Fiesta lost its rarity. SO prices are going crazy.

[Lordlymight]

Ths game is supposidly age 13+ because it is an online game. Being that. Most 13 year olds will not have a Credit card or a debit card. Or a bank account for that matter. They will not have a paypal. So not everyone can purchase Sparkcash. I am lucky that my mom plays this game and will purchase CS.

This goes back to means, which I already addressed

About paying a standard 15$ to play. Yes some people wouldn't have to leave. But then everything in the CS might be able to be purchased IG. So then it wouldn't be imbalanced. Such as outfits hair. Maybe even perfects. But one thing it would get rid of are the younger aged people who...Misbehave because of their maturity lvl. There would be less Gold spammers. And if were to actually pay. outspark could legally sue those gold spammers, like WoW did. The game would become I am sure smaller community wise, but alot of those spammers, bots, gold spammers would most likely leave because whats the point of paying for a game u don't play or make money on.

Once again, you have contradicted yourself in a the same post. So 13+ won't have credit cards for sparkcash, but now they can afford to pay $15 a month...? This is exactly the type of argumentation that was causing Angelxx so much stress in her earlier attempts to discuss this topic.

If I am reading this right, by denying access to this game to hundreds of players, we will create balance?

Ok, so we have eliminated all those that do not want a p2p game. So how do we balance those that have better internet connections or more time to play. Let's say I have a job and can therefore only play for a couple hours a night, but some kiddie enjoying his or her summer vacation can play for 11 or 12 hours a day. How do we balance that. I got an idea. The game will cost $60 a month, you can only play for 1 hour a day, and if you weren't able to get on that day, an average of what everyone who did play got for experience for the day will be given to you when you next log in. Also, if you didn't get in on zero day, forget about ever playing again, because god forbid someone were to cap before someone else.

Please please please tell me you see how elitist this proposition is. If you want super fair balanced p2p, I recommend you find a different game. They are available in vast abundance and some, I hear, are quite good. But like you mentioned about one paragraph ago, this game was designed for 13+ who just might not have access to a credit card or pay pal.

But like i said I know many people who would rather P2P a balanced game than a F2P highly unbalanced game. I am still here because its beta and i still want to see if the GMs/DEVs change anything about these imbalances.

That's all fine and good, but you have to understand that that isn't going to change how the rest of us feel, and is hardly a valid argument versus any particular cash shop items.

You want to know why I'm here. Because the game is fun, I enjoy the friends I have met online, and it is a great way to spend a little free time. You know what, I bet there are a lot of others who feel the same way...

I am discussing not just one can lvl faster. But because of CS people are having the amount of money one should not have at their lvl. Look at Enhancers. They are the richest in the game. Because of those few enhancers Prices of return scrolls went up amazingly. The price of +9's went down.

Alright, I will concede that things cost more. I have nothing to substantiate this since the prices have been about the same since I started, but regardless... let's just say that enhancers have caused a spike in the game economy.

What is the effect of this increased economy? So a scroll is 5 times what it "used to cost in the old days." There is no place in the game you can't get to without fighting your way there. +9 equips are prevalent and commonplace. Sweet, so now we have some equity in the pvp zones. Greens are everywhere. Neat, that means I can really hunt down that awesome high END item because there are more on the market.

I must admit, I just don't understand what it is you are trying to allude to. The things you seem to be arguing against are exactly the kinds of things that seem to accomplish what you are arguing for.

I do admit i have used perfects. but that is only because i have made a +8 weapon without CS. I have gone finished it to +9 with CS but thats because the effect is so much cooler :P. I have used lvling packs(not payed by me).

And imo opinion its unfair for my sister to play Fiesta on that crappy cpu she has and i play on a laptop that is 95% lag free.

Well then maybe you should let her play on your computer once in awhile...

Here you admit to using items, but I don't understand what point you are trying to make with the statement. Are you saying that you don't like red eyes, but have used them before? Are you saying that you don't feel like you have done something wrong because you only used them for a single enhancement level? I'm not being mean, I'm genuinely curious what it is you are trying to get across with this statement.

And to your response to If he can solo section. Yes he can solo and triple exp. But when there are events such as the Legend of Isya event. First 3 of each class to cap gets a prize. Thats where its unfair in my opinion.

Why? Where you number 4. Did number 4 not use any premium items while numbers 1-3 did? Did numbers 1-3 start way after number 4? And the prizes they got, were they something outrageous? Did they get bonus levels, was some game mechanic altered just for them?

Come on, let's not be jealous of something that was so far out of our realm that it is purely an academic subject for us.

Now if you had said that there are events just for cash shop users, I guess I would be a bit more sympathetic. But even those are not imbalancing. These events can be quite fun. Even non-CS events are often more easily accomplished with CS items. This all goes back to value for your very real money. I spent the money that helps sustain this company, I want a little something back for that.

See only things i actually want gone from CS are charms and extenders, and some of the packs. I can see why they are there yes to make the game easier. I was told that the original fiesta isn't gonna be lvling this slow. Because they had to decrease exp so we actually play and find bugs. Well with people purchasing Exp boosts..Lvling packs. They dont' end up doing what the purpose of beta is.

And finally we get to the meat. So you hate extenders, charms and some of the packs. You say, based on your many previous posts, that these cause severe imbalance to the game.

Fair enough, now let's hear some reasons and we might actually begin to discuss the real issue at hand instead of all this contradictory reasoning. Why do you hate these things?

You say that leveling packs destroy the BETA. You say that the game has been purposefully hamstrung exp-wise. My question is which is it? Does everyone have a leveling pack?

Maybe all those 13+ with no pay pal are doing exactly what it is Outspark needed, so why not allow those that can afford it a little boost. Are we returning to the "leveling speed" imbalance, because I will again refute with those with more free time getting more hours per day in, and therefore leveling faster than even the most wealthy gamer with every premium item who only gets to play a couple hours a day.

The most awesome leveling card you can get is +20%. That means that if I have that item, I have to kill 4 monsters for your 5. Let's do a little math. Yesterday I worked solely on the Escaped Prisoner quest. I completed the quest twice at 120 prisoners each. While it is not even close, for completeness sake, let's say I killed a like number of "other monsters." Bats are worth less, torturers are worth more, so we will say that part equals out. I played for 4 hours with a few breaks in there.

So, our word problem says that I killed 480 total monsters with similar experience each. If I had the card, I could add 20% to that experience, meaning that it is roughly equivalent to killing 576 monsters. If I did not have the card, but played an additional hour (assuming a sustained rate of killing), I would have killed 600.

My point is this, even with the card, the benefit, while very nice, is not going to destroy the beta.

Of course, by not actually having to kill those monsters, I would more time for other pursuits, like reading a book or other non-gaming related pursuit.

This is a game based around CS. But not everyone can get CS. My 13 year old sister can't.

You could get her some. That would help balance your real life a little. Now, how would you feel if someone told you you had to do that?

Now if they could make CS items tradeable. This game would be more balanced lvling wise. PVP wise. But not when it comes to money. It will once again be thrown farther out of balance.

I have heard this argument before. I don't agree, but I really have no attachment to the issue, so I have nothing to really say about it.

(off topic)This is something i have yet to understand. Why are people paying for a game that isn't finished. Thats like spending 200$ to test the 1st disk of FFVII. I always thought game testers got payed...

Didn't you just say you have bought premium items. Maybe you would like to answer this question yourself?

[zues8844]

Quite frankly, if you have the money to blow, I say go ahead. There's nothing wrong with it. People with CS items help others by making enhanced weapons, being able to withstand more attacks in parties......Whoever hates people who use SparkCash are messed up, just because another person has an advantage they don't, they have to hate them.........that's the most screwed up thing I've ever heard.

[Lythari]

One thing that many people do not realize:

If there was no CS, there would probably be no Fiesta now. If that is what you consider balanced, then the CS most certainly is imbalancing. The CS is needed to generate income for a game that is completely free. Sure, some of the special items aren't, but Fiesta itself is. You are not charged to play the game.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being a good soloer or preferring to solo. I solo 85-90% of the time. In fact, I have my party invite filter on at all times. Just because I choose to solo, and can do fairly well at it WITHOUT any CS items is not imbalancing or defeating the purpose of playing an MMO.

I don't feel this is a matter of imbalance so much as people simply wanting what others have despite not making the sacrifices for it. That, or the 'things were better back when...' argument that Lordlymight has mentioned. Do thirteen year olds have a credit card? Unlikely. However, do they get an allowance? Most likely. Could they ask their parents to use a portion of their allowance to buy spark cash? Yes they could. Or they could come here and ask that they receive things that other's pay for without charge by claiming that it isn't fair despite that it is. It's perfectly fair for someone who helps fund an organization to be granted certain privileges and incentives by said organization. That is how things work in the real world. If everyone was being charged a monthly fee to play, what would be the difference between that and purchasing spark cash? Oh, well the people who cannot/do not purchase spark cash couldn't play the game period. That is much more fair and balanced. Be grateful that a game as good as Fiesta is free to play.

[HateUchiha]

I still cant beleive some ppl cant see the imbalance it causes...

Spark cash is basicly a 'option' everyone says, (this next sentence was taken from a thread i saw a while ago) But at lv 70s when u lose 1mill exp when u die, is blessing of teva really an option?
They raise the enchancement failure rate....Is it really and option if u want a +9 to not buy Red eyes and Blue miles?

These things balance our game more than alot of you think...
I use the cash shop yes...i buy these items yes...but i know its an imbalance to the game and i WONT just deny or try and get past that.

Like gravvi said, not everyone can get it. And even so, CS items arent tradeable. at least then the players who cant afford it in real money could buy it in-game.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY. Outspark needs money to keep this game going, they will push it to any limit to get that money.

New product!Tevas Wrath:increase def and dmg 150% for 7days only 9876sc
.....40% of users buy this product
.....60% cant afford it and fall victim to the new craze of solo aoes and pvp destruction

Imbalance is there...dont deny or let it go unoticed =/.....

[Gravvi]

I don't let my sister on my laptop because last time she was on here i had to reformat my laptop. I don't buy her CS cuz i can't purchase CS and i am 19 years old. I don't have a paypal or a CC. I said my mom purchases it for me if we have money. And i stated i didn't like charms or extenders. I stated why i don't like them.


As for people age 13 haveing allowances. I have only met 3 people in my entire life who ever had an allowance. One of them was a rich kid who got 100$ a week...

But lythari if you saw what i posted that angellic posted. People get scammed online everyday. Thats why alot of parent's won't purchase online items.

I am also getting at. Yes its free. But they are trying to balance us through CS. So if we want to be up to par with everyone We must pay for CS.

Another thing lythari. You can solo yes. But when you are solo'ing are u able to solo what an entire party has to. Are you solo'ing KQ which is suppose to require 15 people to do. If not then your solo'ing isnt' part of that imbalance.

And i already stated why having fiesta P2P can be a good thing. In my post it also says the bad.

As for If there is no CS their would be a fiesta. Because they would have it P2P.
But then hate and many others have noticed. If we want to be up to par the game isnt' Free to Play. We have to pay to be up to par.

When i meant not partying whats the point of an MMO. To me it was like he didn't interact with anyone. he just solo'd. If that was teh case he should be playing Fable or FF again.

The thing is with arguements about if its real world. Well its not the real world its a game. One they are trying to balance. But they can't balance the game when people are constantly altering themselves.


*slow type edited* 100% with hate. Hate imma let you keep posting because your wording things better than me. :P

[exeyon]

the cash shop needs to have more V.I.P. type items is all

[Lordlymight]

Ok, let me squash this p2p versus f2p aspect of the debate right now...

This game is not compulsory

You do not have to play it in order to get through school, make money, or become the next big superstar.

There is absolutely no real world benefit to this game outside of some personal enjoyment.

You have a choice when you choose an online game. God knows there are plenty of them out there. If this one does not suit your needs, I'm sure that out of the literal hundreds available, there is one that will suit your needs just fine.

Ok, can we now get back to the topic of what is good and bad about the cash shop please.

[poolplayermaster]

wow i should jsut let lordly might be on the head of the debate team here

seriously you find things i don't even notice and you great at geetting your point across were you on or are you on a debate team in school?

[Gravvi]

Ok, let me squash this p2p versus f2p aspect of the debate right now...

This game is not compulsory

You do not have to play it in order to get through school, make money, or become the next big superstar.

There is absolutely no real world benefit to this game outside of some personal enjoyment.

You have a choice when you choose an online game. God knows there are plenty of them out there. If this one does not suit your needs, I'm sure that out of the literal hundreds available, there is one that will suit your needs just fine.

Ok, can we now get back to the topic of what is good and bad about the cash shop please.

LOl everyone keeps bringing up the F2P aspect.

[DeathBringer01]

Im not a hater of the CS but I think that it gives huge advantages to people who use it.
I mean when some one has a extender they have what you say to be a perm. version of endure buff and vit scroll so whats the big deal? well the big deal is they can still get a buff and use vit scroll making their hp crazy high allowing them to tank more mobs which means better exp which means more drops which means more money etc etc.

If some one has a Teva then they dont even need tele scrolls b/c they can just go die and not lose 50k exp but still get to town.

If some one uses CS they dont have to spend 5g on a +9 but instead make 5g when they sell it but only bought it as a +0 for cheap. If I could have +9'ed all my stuff instead of buying I would have another 15+g instead of only having 3g.

If people have 20 slots of shop and I only have 5 can you not see the diff in moneymaking? When i go AFK for night I can buy 5 stacks of SBL when a competitor can buy 20 stacks meaning 4x the money in the same amount of time when they make scrolls outta it. They could sell 20 weapons over 1 night when i can sell 5 a night for 4 nights assuming I sell all 5 each night.

I could list things for hours but I dont have the time so my list ends here.

[Gravvi]

good points. Those are also reasons i don't like some CS items.

[Lordlymight]

I don't let my sister on my laptop because last time she was on here i had to reformat my laptop. I don't buy her CS cuz i can't purchase CS and i am 19 years old. I don't have a paypal or a CC. I said my mom purchases it for me if we have money. And i stated i didn't like charms or extenders. I stated why i don't like them.

So what you're saying is that there is some reason for this imbalance in life... interesting


As for people age 13 haveing allowances. I have only met 3 people in my entire life who ever had an allowance. One of them was a rich kid who got 100$ a week...

I didn't have an allowance as a kid. I still managed to grow up as a moderately well adjusted adult. I also still managed to mow a few lawns on weekends to make the few bucks I needed for movies, clothes and other fun things I wanted back then. Live in the city, cool, wash cars, walk dogs, babysit, for pete's sake set up a lemonade stand.

That said, the last, and I mean last, thing I would recommend for someone to spend money on is sparkcash. But it's your money, do with it as you please. Which is my whole point in the first place.

But lythari if you saw what i posted that angellic posted. People get scammed online everyday. Thats why alot of parent's won't purchase online items.

It takes some pretty careless slip-ups to have your card number stolen online. Its easier for the clerk at walmart to steal your card number than an online facility. That's the beauty of places like Pay Pal. Its also one of the many subtle benefits of pre-paid debit cards. These things are great, and if you are smart, even if you do get scammed, you are only out the amount on the card. That said, fairly safe to say the Outspark is not going to rip off your credit card number...

Now I only have the experience of the years under my belt, but I have never met anyone that has been scammed on the internet that did not do something careless.

I am also getting at. Yes its free. But they are trying to balance us through CS. So if we want to be up to par with everyone We must pay for CS.

Ahh, and the truth comes out. You are upset that you cannot keep up with CS users unless you are a CS user. this was addressed by Angelxx's very first post, so i will ask that you go back and read that.

Another thing lythari. You can solo yes. But when you are solo'ing are u able to solo what an entire party has to. Are you solo'ing KQ which is suppose to require 15 people to do. If not then your solo'ing isnt' part of that imbalance.

This really bothers you, doesn't it. Very well, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Angelxx gave some very good arguments versus this as well, so i won't beat the dead pony. It is obviously something that bugs you even though it affects you in no way, so we will just suffice it to say that at the end "Gravvi does not like that KQs can be soloed" and let it die for now.

As for If there is no CS their would be a fiesta. Because they would have it P2P.
But then hate and many others have noticed. If we want to be up to par the game isnt' Free to Play. We have to pay to be up to par.

No YOU feel you need to be up to par. I have 3% crit glasses. That's it. no Teva, no Exp boost, no +9 equips (not a single one), and I still clank MD for fun. I do not feel inadequate, nor do i feel disadvantaged. I don't feel sub par. I level very fast comparatively. I can solo if I want.

How can you make this statement an absolute. You are not everyone. Make statements like this about yourself and your immediate experience all day, but do not pretend to speak for everyone.

When i meant not partying whats the point of an MMO. To me it was like he didn't interact with anyone. he just solo'd. If that was teh case he should be playing Fable or FF again.

The thing is with arguements about if its real world. Well its not the real world its a game. One they are trying to balance. But they can't balance the game when people are constantly altering themselves.

Hence the world of communism and capitalism. Either we are all the same, or we are all different.

[DeathBringer01]

As for the F2P and the P2P aspect, if this game was P2P it would save all CS users money b/c then extenders,charms,miles,suits/dresses,inv/stoarge items, and etc wouldnt need to be purchases b/c they would all be ingame items.

Think about this if some one was to buy the following(all items are the 1 month forms)

1 mini wolf
1 black glasses
1 hp/sp extender 50%
1 shark house
1 summer boop set
1 blue mile T3
1 red eye T3


You total cost would be about 28-29 dollars

Why pay $29 for 6 items and a +2-5 T3 item if lucky when you could pay $10-25 for everything thats in the CS for free?

EDIT*-most people I know spend about 50$ to enhance one T3 weapon to +9

[Lordlymight]

Im not a hater of the CS but I think that it gives huge advantages to people who use it.
I mean when some one has a extender they have what you say to be a perm. version of endure buff and vit scroll so whats the big deal? well the big deal is they can still get a buff and use vit scroll making their hp crazy high allowing them to tank more mobs which means better exp which means more drops which means more money etc etc.

If some one has a Teva then they dont even need tele scrolls b/c they can just go die and not lose 50k exp but still get to town.

If some one uses CS they dont have to spend 5g on a +9 but instead make 5g when they sell it but only bought it as a +0 for cheap. If I could have +9'ed all my stuff instead of buying I would have another 15+g instead of only having 3g.

If people have 20 slots of shop and I only have 5 can you not see the diff in moneymaking? When i go AFK for night I can buy 5 stacks of SBL when a competitor can buy 20 stacks meaning 4x the money in the same amount of time when they make scrolls outta it. They could sell 20 weapons over 1 night when i can sell 5 a night for 4 nights assuming I sell all 5 each night.

I could list things for hours but I dont have the time so my list ends here.

thank you for being very specific with your arguments. It is something I have been looking forward to.

You make the point that it comes with advantages, of which there is no contest. Do you feel that the advantage is in some way unfair?

I will provide my argument first so that you will have the opportunity to refute.

The advantage gained via cash shop items is commensurate with the real life effort I have to put into making the money I use to buy sparkcash. Is it not fair that real money spent should garner some substantial benefit for the one both willing and able to spend it?

---Edit: Rather than posting something new

As for the F2P and the P2P aspect, if this game was P2P it would save all CS users money b/c then extenders,charms,miles,suits/dresses,inv/stoarge items, and etc wouldnt need to be purchases b/c they would all be ingame items.

Think about this if some one was to buy the following(all items are the 1 month forms)

* 1 mini wolf
* 1 black glasses
* 1 hp/sp extender 50%
* 1 shark house
* 1 summer boop set
* 1 blue mile T3
* 1 red eye T3


You total cost would be about 28-29 dollars

Why pay $29 for 6 items and a +2-5 T3 item if lucky when you could pay $10-25 for everything thats in the CS for free?

EDIT*-most people I know spend about 50$ to enhance one T3 weapon to +9

But you see, no one HAS to buy those items. It is entirely voluntary, unlike p2p...

wow i should jsut let lordly might be on the head of the debate team here

seriously you find things i don't even notice and you great at geetting your point across were you on or are you on a debate team in school?

I have a bachelor's degree in philosophy. One aspect of philosophy is critical thinking and logic. You learn how to carefully build your arguments and assist others in building their's (if they are willing)

[Gravvi]

*smashes head on keyboard* You still don't get it. Its not just me. Lordly. Its not affecting just me. Its affecting alot of things that seem minor to you and angel. Its not just that he can solo a KQ. Its the fact that CS can make 1 person do something 15-20 without CS can do. Its imbalancing the game. If you bought charms, extenders, and used buffs, and scrolls. your overpowering more than half the game.

As for her post about its actually saving money if it was P2P. Not that she has to buy them. Its saves people money is all she was saying.

And i used to host a Ragnarok Online. People would donate to me to run the game. Did they expect special treatment no. Do they get special items that affect gameplay. NO.

So your post about having to have something worth spending your money on, is in my opinion pointless.

If it was a great game wouldn't you pay for a great game, without gaining something?

Just because you don't feel ur underpowered. Your not below par doesn't mean your not. WHile your clanking MD with help from 14 other people. There is a squishy mage solo'ing a KQ. Now Why don't you see that as something wrong. IF you can't see that 1 person doing what it takes 15 people to do as unfair. Your are beyond blind. Is it drastically affecting your gameplay. Maybe not. But it does affect everyone. Because those people who can't get CS are leaving because the game is imbalanced. SO yes it does affect everyone.

and about the hacking. You know how easy it is to VNP a computer. VNP allows you to gain access to any computer. If someone know ur email account. You can be easily VNP. You can VNP a computer through MSN. Its happened to alot of my friends. Because as soon as u log into your email. Oh look your now VNP. They can shut down ur cpu from their house. Gain any information that has ever been typed into your computer. Its called HACKING. People do it all the time. You don't have to do somethign stupid. Or all you needs is their IP. Cuz everything you ever type on ur cpu is saved in a place that is not accessible. I can go into my moms computer and access those files through MS-DOS. And find everything she has searched. Everything she has deleted. ANything can be traced. How do u think the FBI can find sexual predators.

And its obvious you only have a few years under your belt.

now if life was balanced why are there diff religions. Why are their cereal killers. WHy are there robbers. There are many reason why life isn't fair/balanced.

And i am up to par with some people in the game. Not all but some. What bothers me isnt' the simple fact anyone can solo a KQ with CS aid. Its that since teh CS... The balance can only be achieved through purchase of CS.

[Empathys]

No and I repeat, no. All my cleric and my archer friend has is the cute little outfit from CS shop. The one you see in my siggie with crit. We either solo or duo in abyss and we never had any problems with it. No charms, no BoT, nothing except the outfit. Even my mage before she got her extenders soloed in abyss without anything, not even a CS outfit.

That is why I cannot understand the reasons behind saying that CS gives an unfair advantage.

Note: most of the time my cleric does not even use scrolls except aim in abyss. My mage used to use only t1 scrolls.

As for extensive CS users, there really aren't that many of them. Sometimes perhaps you assume they are because you think only extensive CS users can do what they appear to be doing.

Taking my mage as an example again, she now uses extenders, extra stone capacity usually when soloing in abyss. No charms at all. However, she also uses T3 scrolls and gets a t2 buff and she has 4k hp. I don't think you would consider extenders, stone capacity and bot extensive (advantage wise) so how then is she able to do what you assumed only heavy CS boosted players can do?

My mage does wear CS outfit too, usually with crit or normal ones. Would that automatically make people miscontrue that she was heavily CS advantaged?

What I am offering as a counter argument is that there are fewer CS extensive players than you think and those few does not make it a good reason to hate CS or CS users.

Okay, I'm going to give this one last go because this discussion is getting ridiculous. But before I go into this I would ask you to stop deciding what I do and do not like / think / presume. It's annoying and stupidly childish.

You keep bringing up the point that you were able to solo / duo in Abyss without CS items. Congratulations you've stated that in nearly every post. I am aware that people can manage without CS items. It happens all the time and I've been in dozens of parties where it's been done before. What I am saying is that by using certain combinations of CS items you can get to the point where you exclude the need for a certain class.

Your Cleric soloing at this point is a moot argument as any Cleric can do that. Having Heals only limited by Cooldown and Stone Capacity will do that.

For the bold section I think we can agree to disagree. While you are of the opinion that there aren't as many as I think; while I am of the opinion that there are more than you think. Furthering this aspect of the discussion is a lost cause on both our parts.

Since you seem unwilling to accept my opinion, or the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you. I would perhaps wager you're the polar opposite of a CS hater. That you're so Pro-CS usage that anyone who decries the "fairness" of CS usage is instantly a fool, a moron and unworthy of their opinion.

With that said all your points are issues I already knew about it. I think things through this way and that to see if my opinion is accurate. All the variables you stated such as soloing without CS help (which seems to be the focus of your argument) is entirely possible. If it wasn't possible, OutSpark and On Soft(?) wouldn't have much a game, would they?

As a final note I feel I should reiterate my point that I don't mind people who the use CS In fact, I thank them for doing so as they keep the game free for those, like myself, who are unable to support the game (However in this context most people don't see it as supporting, more like purchasing goods.) My qualm is with the people who state they're better than X Class or X Player because they're beefed up the CS when the other person isn't.

I know I've probably missed some point that you'll exploit to make me look like a fool when I've just tried to pitch my ideas and opinion to someone who doesn't want to hear it. Which, in the end, is why I'm removing myself from this discussion as it serves no purpose except to waste my time.

EDIT: *smashes head on keyboard* You still don't get it. Its not just me. Lordly. Its not affecting just me. Its affecting alot of things that seem minor to you and angel. Its not just that he can solo a KQ. Its the fact that CS can make 1 person do something 15-20 without CS can do. Its imbalancing the game. If you bought charms, extenders, and used buffs, and scrolls. your overpowering more than half the game.

Pretty much what I was trying to point out except giving reasons which seems to have confused some people.

[ramon246]

LMAO <--- that is what i have to say to the past 5pages (5 for me since i have 20post/page >.>)

now, my stance on this is a rather simple one, i do not hate CS or CS users, i could really care less if you spend money or more money than me on this game, thats your business,what i have a problem with and dislike, is the same thing that all these "old school" players are saying.

Game Imbalance

Party Imbalance

yup. Thats when i have a problem with cashshop.
eg.1: lvl 79 fighter full end,max end gear with sheild no +9s 895def, 4khp, dmg 6xx

lvl 79 mage, full int 30+ int/end gear, 5xx def 2.3k hp dmg 9xx

lvl 79 fighter full str high str/mid end gear, axe all +9 1.3k def, 4.8k hp with ext, dmg 18xx

lvl 79 mage full int, 30+ int/end gear, all +9 1k def, 3.5khp with ext dmg 18xx

now, with the personality of the average playing in the fiesta community, who do you think will get priority in party with out depending on friends.the mage that uses CS has more def and almost as much hp as an average full end fighter and we havent even taken into account charms and 20% ext as those can stack with 50% ext.that is an perfect example of imbalance, casual players will now have to exhaust either lots of ingame money or spend RL money which they might have been reluctant to spend or unable to spend jus to stay relevent in a game that is suppose to be a way to get away from the RL stresses of the world, so what if the player cant/wont spend that ingame money or RL money, oh ho,my friend, you either quit or become a bitter CS hater and be thankful you have good friends/guild who (hopefully) wont mind a party member doing a "poor" (compared to CS users) job at whatever it is their doing (minus clerics)

Job Imbalance

eg 2:

This is a very real story my friends which happened to me, i was a lvl 78 tank, all +9 gears, no ext or etc, 1.7k def without pt, 4.1khp no buffs/etc, i notice my good friend (a mage) is in TR and out of desperation (it was an exp boost wkend) i ask him if he has a slot, surprisely he replies, yea i do, lemme know when u get here, so i rush to TR then whisper him telling him to add me, he adds me and i go O.O to see that it was only him and a cleric in a whole corner so they come get me, and we proceed to grind, but only after him telling me to remove mock from my hotkeys so i dont do it out of habit =.= and that to just deva and enjoy the free exp, he tanked, i deva'd, he DD'd i ate pringles and low and behold, we were beating spawn rate, i was using my axe and jokingly said, wow, ur def must be higher than mine now (mine was 1.4k) and he lols and replies "i doubt, its only 1.4k" *rapid blinking* /end story

If that is not brutal game imbalance i will change my name to supahead >.>
lets recap, lvl 77 mage duoing a corner which is supposed to be for a full party and consists of the hardest hitting mobs ingame, and is doing so without him or his cleric breaking a sweat AND beating the spawn rate. any excuses on behalf of that not being imbalance is BS and you need to go feed yourself to jaws >.<

eg 3.

me and 3 guildies decide to do KKP jus the 4 of us, lvl 72 tank (fighter >.<) lvl 76 mage, lvl 73 cleric, lvl 73 archer.

we're stacked with t3 scrolls, only things +9'd are weapons or shields >.>
we make it thru each boss easily (kinda struggling at robo with his fears) and get to kkp and get it to halflife (while dying alot from mass spawns) b4 time runs out, i go sleep the next day and wake up to hear that a DD fighter and DD cleric duo'd the KQ successfully using CS pots and charms while full +9'd.

If that isnt an imbalance i'll remain celibate for the rest of my life

eh, so much more but i wrote this while talking to my gf that i think i lost the reasoning behind posting this in the 1st place >.> but hey, pick it down, tell me why its my view, go tell me you dont share, but if you dare say that its not imbalanced and give a BS reason to why it isnt, you can GFY! >.>

[Gravvi]

LMAO <--- that is what i have to say to the past 5pages (5 for me since i have 20post/page >.>)

now, my stance on this is a rather simple one, i do not hate CS or CS users, i could really care less if you spend money or more money than me on this game, thats your business,what i have a problem with and dislike, is the same thing that all these "old school" players are saying.

Game Imbalance

Party Imbalance

yup. Thats when i have a problem with cashshop.
eg.1: lvl 79 fighter full end,max end gear with sheild no +9s 895def, 4khp, dmg 6xx

lvl 79 mage, full int 30+ int/end gear, 5xx def 2.3k hp dmg 9xx

lvl 79 fighter full str high str/mid end gear, axe all +9 1.3k def, 4.8k hp with ext, dmg 18xx

lvl 79 mage full int, 30+ int/end gear, all +9 1k def, 3.5khp with ext dmg 18xx

now, with the personality of the average playing in the fiesta community, who do you think will get priority in party with out depending on friends.the mage that uses CS has more def and almost as much hp as an average full end fighter and we havent even taken into account charms and 20% ext as those can stack with 50% ext.that is an perfect example of imbalance, casual players will now have to exhaust either lots of ingame money or spend RL money which they might have been reluctant to spend or unable to spend jus to stay relevent in a game that is suppose to be a way to get away from the RL stresses of the world, so what if the player cant/wont spend that ingame money or RL money, oh ho, someone my friend, you either quit or become a bitter CS hater and be thankful you have good friends/guild who (hopefully) wont mind a party member doing and "poor" (compared to CS users) job at whatever it is their doing (minus clerics)

Job Imbalance

eg 2:

This is a very real story my friends which happened to me, i was a lvl 78 tank, all +9 gears, no ext or etc, 1.7k def without pt, 4.1khp no buffs/etc, i notice my good friend (a mage) is in TR and out of desperation (it was an exp boost wkend) i ask him if he has a slot, surprisely he replies, yea i do, lemme know when u get here, so i rush to TR then whisper him telling him to add me, he adds me and i go O.O to see that it was only him and a cleric in a whole corner so they come get me, and we proceed to grind, but only after him telling me to remove mock from my hotkeys so i dont do it out of habit =.= and that to just deva and enjoy the free exp, he tanked, i deva'd, he DD'd i ate pringles and low and behold, we were beating spawn rate, i was using my axe and jokingly said, wow, ur def must be higher than mine now (mine was 1.4k) and he lols and replies "i doubt, its only 1.4k" *rapid blinking* /end story

If that is not brutal game imbalance i will change my name to supahead >.>
lets recap, lvl 77 mage duoing a corner which is supposed to be for a full party and consists of the hardest hitting mobs ingame, and is doing so without him or his cleric breaking a sweat AND beating the spawn rate. any excuses on behalf of that not being imbalance is BS and you need to go feed yourself to jaws >.<

eg 3.

me and 3 guildies decide to do KKP jus the 4 of us, lvl 72 tank (fighter >.<) lvl 76 mage, lvl 73 cleric, lvl 73 archer.

we're stacked with t3 scrolls, only things +9'd are weapons or shields >.>
we make it thru each boss easily (kinda struggling at robo with his fears) and get to kkp and get it to halflife (while dying alot from mass spawns) b4 time runs out, i go sleep the next day and wake up to hear that a DD fighter and DD cleric duo'd the KQ successfully using CS pots and charms while full +9'd.

If that isnt an imbalance i'll remain celibate for the rest of my life

eh, so much more but i wrote this while talking to my gf that i think i lost the reasoning behind posting this in the 1st place >.> but hey, pick it down, tell me why its my view, go tell me you dont share, but if you dare say that its not imbalanced and give a BS reason to why it isnt, you can GFY! >.>

Lol you also i told you about my lvl 50 friend who reached ur hp and more def because of CS items. And your capped right?

*Edit* I am also withdrawing from posting unless Someone posts something really really really dumb. You don't get my reasonings. So no point in continueing

[ramon246]

The advantage gained via cash shop items is commensurate with the real life effort I have to put into making the money I use to buy sparkcash. Is it not fair that real money spent should garner some substantial benefit for the one both willing and able to spend it?



But you see, no one HAS to buy those items. It is entirely voluntary, unlike p2p...




see that? thats the kind of mentality that pisses me off. This is a maw effing game.Why should you have become godlike in a game jus because you throw a bit more money to support the game. In my opinion, a cash shop should provide variety for gamers so that they look/feel a little different from non CS players, but in no way should a CS COMPLETELY change a game to a point that you have to USE cs to remain a factor in the game.Oh and dont come *****ing about "its ur choice whether u buy or not", those +9 items ur gonna have to use to get a proper party are deviated from the CS and whatever. This games community has changed to a point that if you dont use some sort of CS originated item, YOU CAN NO LONGER ENJOY THE GAME as you practically become an outcast. When an archer has to become a CS ***** to equate himself to match a same lvl mage who only has +9 wep, THE GAME ISNT BALANCED.

I give you a challenge, when ur CS items run out, dont buy any for a month and jus play as an average gamer, maybe your head isnt too far up ur ..... to see the vast difference in gaming experience from a CS to a non-CS. Your like someone born into a rich family who is so used to a lifestyle that you cant see what ppl who havent got what you have are complaining about till you actually spend sometime in their shoes.

My point is that this IS A GAME.. a child based game at that... and in no way should your real ife status or wealth affect how well you do in a game. Games are meant to get away from real life and here you are practically promoting classism.

you know what, why dont they jus chance the game servers, have 2 servers for the cashshop ppl let them have some nice cash shop fun together and then let those who want a balanced and challenging game inhabit the other 2 servers for as it is right now, CS and non CS users are to vast and different to be able to fully enjoy this game together.

[Angelxx]

Okay, I'm going to give this one last go because this discussion is getting ridiculous. But before I go into this I would ask you to stop deciding what I do and do not like / think / presume. It's annoying and stupidly childish.

Actually you should read your own posts before you accuse me of saying you 'assume' things. You were the one who 'assumed' my characters used charms. I said they didn't and you only assumed they did, so maybe you assumed others did too.

You keep bringing up the point that you were able to solo / duo in Abyss without CS items. Congratulations you've stated that in nearly every post. I am aware that people can manage without CS items. It happens all the time and I've been in dozens of parties where it's been done before. What I am saying is that by using certain combinations of CS items you can get to the point where you exclude the need for a certain class.

Only because you keep insisting that people solo in abyss because they are decked out with CS. What I'm trying to tell you is that even without CS items, you can still get to the point where you exclude the need for a certain class.

Your Cleric soloing at this point is a moot argument as any Cleric can do that. Having Heals only limited by Cooldown and Stone Capacity will do that.

And yet you assumed my cleric used charms?

For the bold section I think we can agree to disagree. While you are of the opinion that there aren't as many as I think; while I am of the opinion that there are more than you think. Furthering this aspect of the discussion is a lost cause on both our parts.

Yes, we can agree to disagree on that. Being from a different server, there is a possibility of that.

Since you seem unwilling to accept my opinion, or the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you. I would perhaps wager you're the polar opposite of a CS hater. That you're so Pro-CS usage that anyone who decries the "fairness" of CS usage is instantly a fool, a moron and unworthy of their opinion.

For someone who claims that others put words in your mouth when they are using your arguments, you seem to enjoy putting words in my mouth without using my arguments.

I have at no time called anyone any names. If refuting a person's point makes them look like a fool, moron or unworthy of their opinion, it means their point wasn't strong enough and they did it to themselves.

So now you claim I'm the opposite of a CS hater. Interesting. There is a term called 'reverse snobbery'. Perhaps you may wish to read up abit about it.

In the interest of this debate, I will clarify that I have 4 active characters.

My mage and my cleric uses CS items.
My fighter and my archer doesn't.

I do believe that creates a big loophole in your assumption.

With that said all your points are issues I already knew about it. I think things through this way and that to see if my opinion is accurate. All the variables you stated such as soloing without CS help (which seems to be the focus of your argument) is entirely possible. If it wasn't possible, OutSpark and On Soft(?) wouldn't have much a game, would they?

I'm glad we agree on that point.

As a final note I feel I should reiterate my point that I don't mind people who the use CS In fact, I thank them for doing so as they keep the game free for those, like myself, who are unable to support the game (However in this context most people don't see it as supporting, more like purchasing goods.) My qualm is with the people who state they're better than X Class or X Player because they're beefed up the CS when the other person isn't.

As mentioned several times by several people. This mindset isn't created by CS. I've met people who are non CS users (as in total zero CS) who are of the same mentality.

I know I've probably missed some point that you'll exploit to make me look like a fool when I've just tried to pitch my ideas and opinion to someone who doesn't want to hear it. Which, in the end, is why I'm removing myself from this discussion as it serves no purpose except to waste my time.

If you feel that debating your opinion is 'exploiting what you say to make you look like a fool', you may wish to consider the purpose of debate. A debate is to refute a point you do not agree by offering reasons why you don't agree. If your points were not 'stupid' as you call it, no one can make you look 'stupid'. Disclaimer: not calling anyone stupid, merely using the words you use to discuss this point.

I give you a challenge, when ur CS items run out, dont buy any for a month and jus play as an average gamer, maybe your head isnt too far up ur ..... to see the vast difference in gaming experience from a CS to a non-CS. Your like someone born into a rich family who is so used to a lifestyle that you cant see what ppl who havent got what you have are complaining about till you actually spend sometime in their shoes.

Interesting challenge. As mentiioned in my reply to Empathys, I already do so and have no problems playing characters without CS at all. I'm sure that would apply to Lordly as well.

My point is that this IS A GAME.. a child based game at that... and in no way should your real ife status or wealth affect how well you do in a game. Games are meant to get away from real life and here you are practically promoting classism.

From the way you put your points across, are you sure this is a 'game issue' to you?

you know what, why dont they jus chance the game servers, have 2 servers for the cashshop ppl let them have some nice cash shop fun together and then let those who want a balanced and challenging game inhabit the other 2 servers for as it is right now, CS and non CS users are to vast and different to be able to fully enjoy this game together.

A better idea and more practical one would be for those who hate CS to move to a P2P game, wouldn't it?

[poolplayermaster]

and about the hacking. You know how easy it is to VNP a computer. VNP allows you to gain access to any computer. If someone know ur email account. You can be easily VNP. You can VNP a computer through MSN. Its happened to alot of my friends. Because as soon as u log into your email. Oh look your now VNP. They can shut down ur cpu from their house. Gain any information that has ever been typed into your computer. Its called HACKING. People do it all the time. You don't have to do somethign stupid. Or all you needs is their IP. Cuz everything you ever type on ur cpu is saved in a place that is not accessible. I can go into my moms computer and access those files through MS-DOS. And find everything she has searched. Everything she has deleted. ANything can be traced. How do u think the FBI can find sexual predators.

wow i sure hope you know more about computers then your letting on

seriously that is really horrible im actually appalled by that paragraph i don't like to get off topic but i must adress this

do you realise that

1. msn actually has a remote acess program built into it which you have to accept it before they can and then have to turn over controls of your pc to them before they can

2. do you know the skill level of hacking it would take to access that kind of info on your computer not to mention if you do routine cleanup such as cookies temp files temp internet files etc etc and clean out your auto complete depending on what version of IE or what browser you use it is all very easy to do

3. also that the fact is anyone with that kind of talent doesn't need to hack into a pc in hopes of finding something like that when they can hack into something more high level and know what they are getting from it

4. if that happens to you duh just knock out your internet connection and guess what they lose there connection, as well as the fact that files cannot be accessed when a computer is shut down and that most often times shutting your computer down knocks off there connection

5. the fbi doesn't need dos there is a sector on your hard drive that all info is stored on that they can read if the harddrive is partially melted or been in a lkae for 6 years all they need is that sector to be intact they don't even need your computer and not even magnets can erase this sector without being a rather powerful one the only way most effective is to reformat it with linux and rewrite the entire disk over with 0's in binary not even shredding a harddrive is enough

6. pay paticular attention to that bolded sector you say everything ever typed is saved and cannot be acessed then you say that you could access it on your moms using DOS please stop contradicting yourself

7.and ont he ip adress issue if you don't directly connect to them they can't get your ip they need an ip tracer and for you to accept soemthing form them also if you have a ip hider or masker or my favorite a random ip generator they cannot get your real ip and therefore cannot get into your pc and paypal has there own hider as well as a secured section to where not even paypal knows your full credit card number all it knows is the last 4 it has noway of stealing your cc number nor does outspark even if they wanted to

8. and if you security is high enough any hacker who is skilled enough to hack a pc is not going to bother with yours when they have a easier target and most of the time if they hack a pc its only to use it to make it harder to trace them and they do whatever hacking it is they were gonna do through that pc instead of there own

so if youwill please learn a thing or two about computers before you try talking about them i would really apreciate it and um maybe talking to someone who actually knows how to hack i know many people some who have yes hacked through msn but only after getting a response formt he person they were hacking first which established the connection so point blank good security and as lordlymight pointed out not having any slip ups and clearing your files will keep you safe



back on topic however still gotta love you arguments lordlymight and yeah i guess a degree in philosophy would help you are definately good at it and i enjoy reading your posts above all

[ramon246]

Interesting challenge. As mentiioned in my reply to Empathys, I already do so and have no problems playing characters without CS at all. I'm sure that would apply to Lordly as well.

no, really, you dont, try playing your mage, no suits, no +9 wep, no extenders, no nothing, not much different ingameply for a CS cleric or non CS cleric imo



From the way you put your points across, are you sure this is a 'game issue' to you?

you got something to say, say it straight, dont get subliminal


A better idea and more practical one would be for those who hate CS to move to a P2P game, wouldn't it?


its was sarcasm, google it

..........

[Angelxx]

no, really, you dont, try playing your mage, no suits, no +9 wep, no extenders, no nothing, not much different ingameply for a CS cleric or non CS cleric imo

I do play my mage without CS items. That's what seems to be the issue here. People assume that CS users cannot live without their CS items. That is a completely false assumption. I only buy CS items when I feel like it. I don't use CS items all the time.

So are you saying that the fact I play my fighter and archer without CS items doesn't count? Yes. My fighter and archer have totally zero CS items. My fighter has a +3 1h and a +4 shield she uses to tank robo. I think we can agree that +3/+4 can be achieved easily without CS. Although bearing in mind that +9s are now available on the market without CS.

From the way you put your points across, are you sure this is a 'game issue' to you?

Subliminal? Sorry I don't possess that talent or inclination. I thought my point was pretty straight forward. Try answering it and you might be surprised.

its was sarcasm, google it

Try taking your own advice.

[ramon246]

I do play my mage without CS items. That's what seems to be the issue here. People assume that CS users cannot live without their CS items. That is a completely false assumption. I only buy CS items when I feel like it. I don't use CS items all the time.

So are you saying that the fact I play my fighter and archer without CS items doesn't count? Yes. My fighter and archer have totally zero CS items. My fighter has a +3 1h and a +4 shield she uses to tank robo. I think we can agree that +3/+4 can be achieved easily without CS. Although bearing in mind that +9s are now available on the market without CS.

i never said that, i occasionally buy CS items when i feel like it also, i've lvled from 1-79 jus using non stat boosting CS ie, non crit suits, houses, donkey etc

but that doesnt change the fact that i've had to get all my gear +9'd whether it be with my own money or ingame money thru someone else just to keep up with the times, its still all dependent on the CS, and thats the point you guys are failing to see, that everything this game is based on, depends on someone buying from the CS

[Gravvi]

wow i sure hope you know more about computers then your letting on

seriously that is really horrible im actually appalled by that paragraph i don't like to get off topic but i must adress this

do you realise that

1. msn actually has a remote acess program built into it which you have to accept it before they can and then have to turn over controls of your pc to them before they can

2. do you know the skill level of hacking it would take to access that kind of info on your computer not to mention if you do routine cleanup such as cookies temp files temp internet files etc etc and clean out your auto complete depending on what version of IE or what browser you use it is all very easy to do

3. also that the fact is anyone with that kind of talent doesn't need to hack into a pc in hopes of finding something like that when they can hack into something more high level and know what they are getting from it

4. if that happens to you duh just knock out your internet connection and guess what they lose there connection, as well as the fact that files cannot be accessed when a computer is shut down and that most often times shutting your computer down knocks off there connection

5. the fbi doesn't need dos there is a sector on your hard drive that all info is stored on that they can read if the harddrive is partially melted or been in a lkae for 6 years all they need is that sector to be intact they don't even need your computer and not even magnets can erase this sector without being a rather powerful one the only way most effective is to reformat it with linux and rewrite the entire disk over with 0's in binary not even shredding a harddrive is enough

6. pay paticular attention to that bolded sector you say everything ever typed is saved and cannot be acessed then you say that you could access it on your moms using DOS please stop contradicting yourself

7.and ont he ip adress issue if you don't directly connect to them they can't get your ip they need an ip tracer and for you to accept soemthing form them also if you have a ip hider or masker or my favorite a random ip generator they cannot get your real ip and therefore cannot get into your pc and paypal has there own hider as well as a secured section to where not even paypal knows your full credit card number all it knows is the last 4 it has noway of stealing your cc number nor does outspark even if they wanted to

8. and if you security is high enough any hacker who is skilled enough to hack a pc is not going to bother with yours when they have a easier target and most of the time if they hack a pc its only to use it to make it harder to trace them and they do whatever hacking it is they were gonna do through that pc instead of there own

so if youwill please learn a thing or two about computers before you try talking about them i would really apreciate it and um maybe talking to someone who actually knows how to hack i know many people some who have yes hacked through msn but only after getting a response formt he person they were hacking first which established the connection so point blank good security and as lordlymight pointed out not having any slip ups and clearing your files will keep you safe


I know i said i wasn't posted unless someone posted something really dumb.

1. Any good hacker knows how to bypass that.
2. Routine cleanups don't get rid as much as you think. It only hides basic cookies. It cleans cookies and yes. But thats not all you put on your computer when you use the internet. Those hacking cpu's that you speak of. THey can't just delete cash and noone ever find out they hacked someone. There are files imprinted in teh HD that can't be gotten rid of.
3. And hacking into something like your stating would probably be easier to get caught. Doing it to a basic CPU would be easier to get information. And less suspicious. It would seem less likely it would happen.
4. So why would someone hack your computer while they know ur on it. How do you think hackers put viruses on a CPU. WHile you don't know its happening.
5. You said in paragraph #2 that routine cleanups get rid of that... That was contradictory
6. And srry that was my mistake i meant to put. There are files you can't access through WINDOWS/linux/mac. And only throught thing like MS DOS.
7. You dont' have to directly connect to them. If they have someones IP address they can connect to you without you having any knowledge.
You don't have to use paypal to get ur CC number jacked. If you type it in your cpu. I promise you there is a way to find that entire number.
8. Like i said. WHy hack something that is hard. A basic home computer is the easiest to hack into.

Now how do you think identity theft happens. People hack info from cpu's gets ahold of wallets. Gets SS#

[Angelxx]

but that doesnt change the fact that i've had to get all my gear +9'd whether it be with my own money or ingame money thru someone else just to keep up with the times, its still all dependent on the CS, and thats the point you guys are failing to see, that everything this game is based on, depends on someone buying from the CS

Perhaps then you can illustrate more so that we can see that point of view. The reason I stay on this thread and still participate in it is because I am trying to understand the other point of view. But up to now, I have yet seen a convincing argument that allows me to do so.

I seriously cannot see how this game has 'everything based on CS'. That statement just doesn't make sense to me because I know so many who are completely CS free and doesn't use +9s. And yet, these people are still enjoying their game along with the rest of us who do.

And since I have already stated that I play some of my characters without CS quite happily, I don't see why CS is a necessity for game enjoyment.

Maybe it's just me. When I create a party, I select according to job and level but never was +9s or CS items featured in my choice. I'm sure there are people who do so and perhaps I'm being naive and seeing too much good in people, but I believe the majority of us don't.

I would say that the game is dependent on CS because CS funds the game but I wouldn't say that players are dependent on CS because it isn't a necessity to play/enjoy the game.

I can't help but feel misconception of CS users is part of this problem. I will repeat an example and highlight another to illustrate this.

Incident #1
I tell someone that her sandhill scrolls at 1.5s is too expensive and not 'lowest price' as she claims. She calls me a 'CS noob'.

No idea how CS featured in the discussion with her about sandhill scrolls.

Incident #2
This trio pvps me and my archer friend in abyss for no reason other than their personal satisfaction in killing others. We retaliated and killed the 3 of them. One of them remarks that it is due to my +9 shield.

It didn't make sense to me because he was putting my victory down to my 'CS item' when he himself was using a 'CS item', a +9 wand.

I can only assume that he purchased his +9 with game money and because I had a CS outfit on, he assumed my +9 was from eyes/miles.

Either way, I couldn't arrive at a reasonable explanation.

[ramon246]

Perhaps then you can illustrate more so that we can see that point of view. The reason I stay on this thread and still participate in it is because I am trying to understand the other point of view. But up to now, I have yet seen a convincing argument that allows me to do so.

I seriously cannot see how this game has 'everything based on CS'. That statement just doesn't make sense to me because I know so many who are completely CS free and doesn't use +9s. And yet, these people are still enjoying their game along with the rest of us who do.


name me 10 players 60+ who do not have or want a +9 something. and then we'll talk about why you cant complete that list.

yet, you have replied to half of my posts and havent stated whether or not you agree or disagree with my examples about imbalance.But i'l give another example.

Seva from February to the start of may, has capped a fighter, a mage and gotten a 2nd fighter to 61 all soloing heavily on CS items, the same time taken a non CS user will probably have not even capped 1char yet. If you can not see any kind of overpowering resulting from some CS items, then you dont need to read the thread anymore as you will never understand where we are coming from.

[Angelxx]

name me 10 players 60+ who do not have or want a +9 something. and then we'll talk about why you cant complete that list.

This doesn't make sense. Of course everyone wants a +9 but what I'm saying is that you do not NEED a +9. Wants and needs are completely different. If you NEED a +9 to play the game then yes, the game would be imbalanced. But I think it is safe to assume most of you will agree that you can play the game without +9.

yet, you have replied to half of my posts and havent stated whether or not you agree or disagree with my examples about imbalance.But i'l give another example.

I did reply my opinion of your examples. If I missed any, please do point them out to me and I will try to address them. Saying that, it appears you have chosen to disregard my examples.

Seva from February to the start of may, has capped a fighter, a mage and gotten a 2nd fighter to 61 all soloing heavily on CS items, the same time taken a non CS user will probably have not even capped 1char yet. If you can not see any kind of overpowering resulting from some CS items, then you dont need to read the thread anymore as you will never understand where we are coming from.

Okay. Again this boils down to our definitions of imbalance.

My definition: If it disdvantages you to a point it affects your gameplay, then there is imbalance.

How does the fact he has capped 2 characters affect your gameplay? Does it prevent you from grinding? Does it deprive you of any exp? No offence but other than the green-eyed monster, I don't see how it affects others. Perhaps you can enlighten me on this?

And I have no doubt that he probably played 24/7 to cap 2 characters and get 1 to 6x and if a non CS user played the same amount of time, it would be very possible to cap at least 1 character.

I would most definitely agree if a person uses CS items to win at PvP and say there is some imbalance there. However, that said, PvP isn't the focus of Fiesta. It is an aspect of the game that alot of us do not even participate in.

And enough of this 'you don't see our point of view'. If your point of view is so valid, make me see it.

So far you have yet to address the points I have made. Try doing that and perhaps we will be able to have a more balanced discussion.

[poolplayermaster]

I know i said i wasn't posted unless someone posted something really dumb.
1. Any good hacker knows how to bypass that.
2. Routine cleanups don't get rid as much as you think. It only hides basic cookies. It cleans cookies and yes. But thats not all you put on your computer when you use the internet. Those hacking cpu's that you speak of. THey can't just delete cash and noone ever find out they hacked someone. There are files imprinted in teh HD that can't be gotten rid of.
3. And hacking into something like your stating would probably be easier to get caught. Doing it to a basic CPU would be easier to get information. And less suspicious. It would seem less likely it would happen.
4. So why would someone hack your computer while they know ur on it. How do you think hackers put viruses on a CPU. WHile you don't know its happening.
5. You said in paragraph #2 that routine cleanups get rid of that... That was contradictory
6. And srry that was my mistake i meant to put. There are files you can't access through WINDOWS/linux/mac. And only throught thing like MS DOS.
7. You dont' have to directly connect to them. If they have someones IP address they can connect to you without you having any knowledge.
You don't have to use paypal to get ur CC number jacked. If you type it in your cpu. I promise you there is a way to find that entire number.
8. Like i said. WHy hack something that is hard. A basic home computer is the easiest to hack into.
Now how do you think identity theft happens. People hack info from cpu's gets ahold of wallets. Gets SS#


wow again i must say wow
1. bypass it or not the ability to use that feature can be turned off from you end to where its not even neccesary
2. and that may be true but thats why if they do it they do it remotely through somene elses computer thats why you have 80 yo ladys robbing banks online.
3. well thats easy unless you know you can do it without being caught then don't do it duh, and hacking a cpu isn't as easy as all think you cna't pick up a book and say oh so thats how its done and do it, and with proper security measures you cna make your pc as safe as a banks security network, not to mention hacking pc's is small time anyways and rarely used for getting any personal identifiable info.
4. ok that way doesn't make too much sense but i'll try to make sense of the second part at least, a connection still has to be established through something and yeah i know they can but they have to have a means of doign it whihc is through your ip or a direct connection through some form of online communication.
5. i never said that cleaning coookies and what not deletes it from your computer enitrely ever heard of shadow printing thats what the FBI uses which requires having the hard drive and is a very exspensive process to do, this section of the hard drive is inaccessible because it rekords every keystroke ever made in that hardrives lifetime and beong it, much the same as a keylogger.
6.and again you can access any file if you know how problem is if someone trys accessing these files when hacking you you'll know you will see it pop up or notice lag that isn't normally there and a certain unresponsiveness sometimes
7. problem there is getting someones ip adress they have to get it first which can be very hard to do without having some kind of contact with them for them to us a ip tracer or ip sniffer on you and with maskers random ip generators or dial up users cases a new ip every connection this problem can be easily stopped. and they may look at this same number 1 million times eg (1234-5678-9101-1121) in this list of info they got and never knw what it is plus they still need that 3 digit code on the back of the CC or debit card for it to be of any use as well as the exporation date and the card holders name. and bank acocutns require two long numbers a routing and the accoutn number type in something liek this (654641684165168 616541616) and i doubt they can make head or tail of it. so it requires more the jsut getting random bits of info these could be dolalr ammonts scores or jsut randomly typed carbage like this (aggh6464h6w4h6werhr4y62y74262^@^&@gwy24+y462w4y2$YH@w3) which i garantee everyone has doneat least one time in tehre life.
8.why becaus with the securit measures in place getting vital financial info is hard and thats if they store it on there computer or have ever used it. and please tell me that your not trying to say someone keeps the contents of there wallet on there computer and labels what everything is if they do they are just asking for it.
identity theft mostly comes from people who get ahold of the wallet itself and get id and ssn or have actually managed to find that info on a pc or have obtained the info through there job.

please read up more about things like this and be mroe logical about it the difficultys and the counter measures againts it outway the possibilities of the rare occasional occurances of this.
not to mention witht he way CC companys and banks are nowadays they track where it was used use video survailance and most of the time track them and also reverse the charges and put any money stolen right back where it was and switch you over to a new account trust me i know i had it done and had the 11 dollars that they managed to get before they locked the card for fraudulant use and returned that money as well. so this isnot really a big problem

[Gravvi]

wow again i must say wow
1. bypass it or not the ability to use that feature can be turned off from you end to where its not even neccesary
2. and that may be true but thats why if they do it they do it remotely through somene elses computer thats why you have 80 yo ladys robbing banks online.
3. well thats easy unless you know you can do it without being caught then don't do it duh, and hacking a cpu isn't as easy as all think you cna't pick up a book and say oh so thats how its done and do it, and with proper security measures you cna make your pc as safe as a banks security network, not to mention hacking pc's is small time anyways and rarely used for getting any personal identifiable info.
4. ok that way doesn't make too much sense but i'll try to make sense of the second part at least, a connection still has to be established through something and yeah i know they can but they have to have a means of doign it whihc is through your ip or a direct connection through some form of online communication.
5. i never said that cleaning coookies and what not deletes it from your computer enitrely ever heard of shadow printing thats what the FBI uses which requires having the hard drive and is a very exspensive process to do, this section of the hard drive is inaccessible because it rekords every keystroke ever made in that hardrives lifetime and beong it, much the same as a keylogger.
6.and again you can access any file if you know how problem is if someone trys accessing these files when hacking you you'll know you will see it pop up or notice lag that isn't normally there and a certain unresponsiveness sometimes
7. problem there is getting someones ip adress they have to get it first which can be very hard to do without having some kind of contact with them for them to us a ip tracer or ip sniffer on you and with maskers random ip generators or dial up users cases a new ip every connection this problem can be easily stopped. and they may look at this same number 1 million times eg (1234-5678-9101-1121) in this list of info they got and never knw what it is plus they still need that 3 digit code on the back of the CC or debit card for it to be of any use as well as the exporation date and the card holders name. and bank acocutns require two long numbers a routing and the accoutn number type in something liek this (654641684165168 616541616) and i doubt they can make head or tail of it. so it requires more the jsut getting random bits of info these could be dolalr ammonts scores or jsut randomly typed carbage like this (aggh6464h6w4h6werhr4y62y74262^@^&@gwy24+y462w4y2$YH@w3) which i garantee everyone has doneat least one time in tehre life.
8.why becaus with the securit measures in place getting vital financial info is hard and thats if they store it on there computer or have ever used it. and please tell me that your not trying to say someone keeps the contents of there wallet on there computer and labels what everything is if they do they are just asking for it.
identity theft mostly comes from people who get ahold of the wallet itself and get id and ssn or have actually managed to find that info on a pc or have obtained the info through there job.

please read up more about things like this and be mroe logical about it the difficultys and the counter measures againts it outway the possibilities of the rare occasional occurances of this.
not to mention witht he way CC companys and banks are nowadays they track where it was used use video survailance and most of the time track them and also reverse the charges and put any money stolen right back where it was and switch you over to a new account trust me i know i had it done and had the 11 dollars that they managed to get before they locked the card for fraudulant use and returned that money as well. so this isnot really a big problem

I am a programmer/scripter. I know how CPU's run. No matter how many firewalls precautions you make there are ways around them. I am not going down ur list this time because its in one giant block and hurts my eyes. But there are some things. I want to LOL at. The people robbing banks. WHy else to people rob things. They want money/ the rush of it all. Yes they can give you back the charges. But it costs a fee to have that CC and you have ot have insurance. But getting CC info online and using it online is alot harder to catch. So it can be done. Everything you stated might have a point on how it can be lessened. But people deal with getting hacked everyday. My uncle doesnt' have a CC because his bro got his CC info by hacking his cpu while he wasn't home. just because he used the CC one time. ALl you need to do is use it 1 time on the internet.

Now let me put it this way. If its online. It can be hacked. No matter what it is. I promise you there are ways to hack it. Now the only way to stop that is to know what ways it can be hacked and take certain precautions.

I use VNP programs 1 time a week to keep my friends CPU clean. (he has a bad habbit of clicking on popups and looking at bad things). You dont' need to get his permission. Most VNP programs bypass that now. All i needed was his IP address which can be found from any home CPU. Especially if he has one thing online.

You can get trial VNP programs or pay 3000$ to buy a professional program.

All i am saying is. You can have as many firewalls protection programs for you computer. But it can still be hacked.

Now I probably could go into way more detail but to some it would just be another language that they don't know.

And like i said when you vnp you notice their CPU usage. If its above a certain point and that means they are using it. SO what would happen. You would wait for it to go down and they are gone.

*edit* done talking about hacking. SOmeone might try to hack now... Plus these hacking methods are far away from topic lol. Done posting unless something super dumb is stated. And PPM, I am glad you know a thing a two about cpu's :P. But yea chances of you being hacked are probably 1:1000000000 but you might be the 1 that day.

[poolplayermaster]

point being thorugh all that its the problem of getting you ip that persists and if you keep it proteted its hard to keep especially for those with a dynamic ip

plain and simple use simpler methods of online payments giftcard prepaids and so on

anyways back on topic


warred osme peopel just now and they were full aware of my extender it was 4 on 1 and they actaully quite enjoyed it other then the long time it took to kill me but when they did they hazzaed and cheered and were happy that they finally tookme down

so though some are annoyed they are happy to have a good fight in gw with a cs person

[Lordlymight]

Allow me to start by congratulating Angelxx. You have done a wonderful job of bringing your arguments tone to a more respectful level. You still show some of your very understandable frustration sometimes. I know its hard when your opponent does not counter in similar fashion or with reasonable arguments. That said, considering the belligerence of many of the posts you have replied to, you have done one of the most remarkable jobs of keeping your cool that I have seen in some time while still placing forth logical retorts. Very impressive

*smashes head on keyboard*

I'm afraid we can not further proceed on this debate. I do not seem to have the capacity to understand what it is you are trying to get across. Fortunately, the CS is here to stay and Fiesta is a long way from becoming a p2p game. Therefore, it really is a moot issue. I had just hoped to gain something from this conversation.

And i used to host a Ragnarok Online. People would donate to me to run the game. Did they expect special treatment no. Do they get special items that affect gameplay. NO.

I'm afraid that this other game that you mention is both of no relevance, nor of any interest to me. Considering your love for the game, I'm sure you would be welcome back there should the cash shop not be suitable to your game preferences.

So your post about having to have something worth spending your money on, is in my opinion pointless.

You are entitled to your opinion.

If it was a great game wouldn't you pay for a great game, without gaining something?

No, I would not. I only play this game because it is free. I made a single expenditure using money from my stimulus check. I spent a whole $25 on sparkcash, with which I bought 4250 worth of gear about 12 days ago and have 13250 left. I will continue to use 2100 a month on my crit glasses (lasts 30 days and grants a whole 3% crit bonus) for the next 6 months, I really like how they look. I will very likely buy more stuff in the future because I can.

I have a very close guildmate who has spent $100 a month on this game over the last 4 months (because he can afford to). He loves to try out all the new CS stuff. He buys extenders and mounts and flashy suits.

We started out as first level characters together. He is now a full 6 levels below me. Why, because I have a little extra free time and don't jump between a bunch of alts. I will probably cap long before him. I don't think any more or less of him because of his expenditures.

Just because you don't feel ur underpowered. Your not below par doesn't mean your not. WHile your clanking MD with help from 14 other people. There is a squishy mage solo'ing a KQ. Now Why don't you see that as something wrong. IF you can't see that 1 person doing what it takes 15 people to do as unfair. Your are beyond blind. Is it drastically affecting your gameplay. Maybe not. But it does affect everyone. Because those people who can't get CS are leaving because the game is imbalanced. SO yes it does affect everyone.

And just because you feel that you are a sub par character does not mean that you are.

No, you are quite correct, I do not see that as wrong.

Perhaps I am as blind as you say. Maybe I am blinded by my enjoyment of the game as it is and it has tainted my ability to see more clearly.

And its obvious you only have a few years under your belt.

[Removed for inappropriate content by CSR_Joker]

now if life was balanced why are there diff religions. Why are their cereal killers. WHy are there robbers. There are many reason why life isn't fair/balanced.

Thank you very much for reiterating my point.

The world is not fair. It is impossible for the world (or a game) to be perfect for everyone. What I like is quite obviously very different from what you like (for instance, I like to discuss things in a well-ordered and intelligent way, you seem to dislike this greatly).

and about the hacking. You know how easy it is to VNP a computer. VNP allows you to gain access to any computer. If someone know ur email account. You can be easily VNP. You can VNP a computer through MSN. Its happened to alot of my friends. Because as soon as u log into your email. Oh look your now VNP. They can shut down ur cpu from their house. Gain any information that has ever been typed into your computer. Its called HACKING. People do it all the time. You don't have to do somethign stupid. Or all you needs is their IP. Cuz everything you ever type on ur cpu is saved in a place that is not accessible. I can go into my moms computer and access those files through MS-DOS. And find everything she has searched. Everything she has deleted. ANything can be traced. How do u think the FBI can find sexual predators.

You could have been making the most valid points and using the strictest rules of debate up to this point and I would consider the lot of it invalid after this statement.

You have to realize a couple of things, and this is very important, so read it carefully.

1. The internet is a massive source of information, both good and bad.
2. Even if I knew squat about computers (unfortunately for you, I know quite a bit), networks, network security, and information assurance. Ten minutes on wikipedia would destroy over three quarters of your statement.
3. Lying on the internet is dumb.

Case in point, I'm willing to bet that you cannot tell me what "VNP" stands for? Why, because there is no VNP. Now we could chalk this up to a typo, but that would require us to accept that you made the exact same mistake 5 times in a row.

If you knew squat about what you were talking about... no, I am not even going to finish this.

instead I will say that I am finished with you. I do not enjoy being lied to. I do not enjoy those that pretend to have more knowledge than they do. And I especially do not enjoy someone using this tactic to attempt to gain an upper hand in a debate. You are free to post as you choose, but you have shown with irrefutable proof that you will resort to any tactic to keep from admitting you are wrong.

Since you seem unwilling to accept my opinion, or the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you. I would perhaps wager you're the polar opposite of a CS hater. That you're so Pro-CS usage that anyone who decries the "fairness" of CS usage is instantly a fool, a moron and unworthy of their opinion.

I apologize for stepping in the middle or the debate between you and Angelxx. I felt I needed to mention that I understand where you are coming from, but that I hope you understand that no one is required to accept anyone else's opinion. By their vary nature, opinions are very personal affairs.

Zealousness can be disappointing, but I think it "unfair" to accuse Angelxx of being zealous when she has carefully put forth her reasoning for her disagreement. Zealousness requires a certain blind faith that can be difficult, if not impossible, to justify with logic. While she has used some strong wording, she has always given reason. And much like you don't agree with her reasons, she is no less of a person because she disagrees with yours.

As a final note I feel I should reiterate my point that I don't mind people who the use CS In fact, I thank them for doing so as they keep the game free for those, like myself, who are unable to support the game (However in this context most people don't see it as supporting, more like purchasing goods.) My qualm is with the people who state they're better than X Class or X Player because they're beefed up the CS when the other person isn't.

Thank you for a very level-headed statement. While it isn't necessarily a refutation, and as Angel mentions in her own response. Jerks at the keyboard will always find a way to think they are better than their peers. I understand that you have issue that the CS gives them tools to use for this purpose, make no mistake that if there was no CS, they would find some other method to be detrimental.

Since we do not truly disagree on any of the core issues (Do you love or hate the CS and why?) I will close here.[/QUOTE]

LMAO <--- that is what i have to say to the past 5pages (5 for me since i have 20post/page >.>)

Your blatant brutal method makes you pretty much unworthy of my time. I will actually consider debating the issue with you when you have learned how to act like a decent human being.

I know i said i wasn't posted unless someone posted something really dumb.

Yeah, that was you...

I am a programmer/scripter.

No, you are a little script kiddie at best. Running home spun DoS attacks on libraries to get your cyber-cred.

Tell you what. I have a static IP. I'm really easy to find since my home server is continuously on the wire. I use my credit card online for everything from paying bills to verifying credit. I save most of my passwords in auto complete.

Hack me.

Have a buddy hack me.

Find someone with the nuts and the know-how to hack me.

Tell me the last 4 of my social, I don't care if it takes 20 years. I will pay any charges you make on any card of mine you can get to work. You can buy a car with one of them, its yours if you can get to it.

You have actually made me angry. That is quite difficult, so congratulations on accomplishing a task many cannot.


Angel,

You know, now I feel bad. You maintained yourself much better than I did in the face of all this. I owe you a bit of an apology for asking you to stay calm when I could not. I should perhaps take my own advice.

[Gravvi]

VPN(yes its a typo [sarcasm]srry i am not perfect like you) virtual Private Network. ... Happy. I have been scripting for 9 years. Major in CIS(Computer Information Systems). Shows how much you know. Do you know anone can post on wikipedia. I can go there now and post a crapload of false statements. Who is lying now. And all i can say to you is OMG YOU ARE BLIND> YOU ADMITTED IT. 3 people have stated the same thing i have like 5 times. And you still don't get it.

And my post about life not being fair. Its called sarcasm. If you read in a previous post of mine i stated this isn't real life its a game that is trying to get balanced. SO please finish reading.

SO why would i hack you. You think i am dumb. First of all your probably waiting for me or someone to hack you. 2nd against the law. 3rd flaming me gets you nowhere.

And also I never said i felt sub-par.

Now since you won't spend money on a Great game your also pretty much stateing
will never buy another video game for as long as you live. Because you won't gain anything but a plastic disc. One where you get nothing special. Because it won't make you better than other people. Sure makes alot of sense.

Umm just because you can't see my reasons and arguements doesn't mean they are unreasonable. Because 3 other people stated what i have. Different wording.

And yes my post about Ragnarok does have a relevance. Here is the how it is relevent. People in this world are willing to donate so their game can keep going. Even if they get nothing out of it. Unlike people like you who have to get something above someone else. What is there to gain from this thread? Nothing. There are over 50 reasons stated by 3 different people on why some CS items make the game unbalanced. The fact that you can't be bother to expand your sense of disbelief. If you don't know what that means it means to forget everything you think of at that time. Your so stuck on oh that isn't a legitament reason because its not what i want to read. Saying i don't like it because i dont' like it isnt' a reason to hate something.

Now if your done making the dumbest assumptions of your life. You can stop posting. Because apparently your being a very judgemental troll.

As for hateuchiha. You are 100% right and so are u Slasher_X. Empathys i know what you were trying to say because i said it already. And Rzpect. GOod luck if you decide you want to keep argueing with people who can't see.

ON a final note i will state one last time. I like CS users i just hate some items in the CS. Now i bid you good day. SInce you fail to see what many people are trying to say.

NOW I Propose this thread be closed and deleted. its been turned into a flame war.

[poolplayermaster]

just to point out ont hat last post of yours

the post cannot be deleted nor clsoed as it doesnot violate any rules or ToS agreements

a debate is often misconstrued as being flaming because it is able to escalate to a heated argument but when tempers could down it returns back to a calm and enjoyable debate

and also i highly doubt taht a 19 yo who has said so many technical thigns wrong about computers that you are very good at programming or scripting but i will not personally attack you on this as it is getting far off topic

and if it is closed and by you wanting it closed i say you are conceding to defeat and forfeiting the right to further continue int his debate debates last as long as they must not until soeone says lets just close it cuz noone wants to see what im saying


so lets let the debate continue

oh and btw way using VPN without someones permission is jsut as illegal as hackig and that this is mostly used in businesses or large corporate offices such as the one i work in we use it all the time to see what someone else is seeing when we cannot get to there to see it but we have permission to do so

i must say lordlymight you are brave but i think you as am i are secure you you other security mesaures i just prefer extras to make it a harder feat to hack me but i only use a prepaid credit card online and the seond i use what i wanted to it beomes useless because there is no more money on it to use if there is its a dollar or two and good luck buying much with that considering its a 1 dollar fee just to use it

now back to the actually issue now that i am done with this

and on yor final statement then why are you here this clearly asks if you hate CS users not CS items but thats irrelevant as you have still provided your arguments on things

but you are very contradictory of yourself and yes wilkipedia can lie but if you use more then ne source such as maybe encyclopedia bratanica, webster, or other reputable sites that give information ont hings theres little to have to worry about

[RyaikenDune]

LOL forum police? Isn't going off topic violating forum rules too? :p

If you think I have violated forum rules, please forward your complaints to the CLs for their action.

As for your accusation that I used swear words. I would ask you to provide evidence of that or I expect a retraction and an apology for making a false allegation.


Excuse me dear, but reminding you to adhere to forums rules isn't off topic.
And as for the second comment, I didn't say that YOU were using swear words. i just said that They were being used.

Secondly, this thread is not about whether CS imbalances the game or not. That is a subjective topic anyways...all opninions, and looking through your posts, you haven't exactly been very open towards other's opinions.
In fact, it has been all 'I'm right, you are wrong'.

Thirdly, adhering to the topic, I do not hold any resentment against cash shop users. This is because they are doing nothing wrong. They are availing of a service open to anyone and everyone. It's not as though they are being given special preference or anything. You are entitiled to the exact same benefits as well. The only difference is that you are unwilling to pay for said benefits.
And again, Cash Shop does not make people snobs. Snobs are snobs. Cash shop users are just a portion of snobs. You are essentially arguing that the only snobs you have encountered on Fiesta are Cash Shop users....

Remember people, this is a game. It's not like this is bribery for services or something.....

Oh and...
(quote removed).


Watch it. Just because the only way you know how to debate is to descend to insults does not mean that other people are very open to these kinds of statements. In real life, you could get beaten up very badly for something like this. Remember, thease are real people.
Bottom line:
If you're trying to be funny with that statement, Al Gore is funnier.
If you're trying to be witty with that statement, you'd have better luck finding a date. (and that's saying something).
And If you're trying to be intelligent with that statement, don't quit your day-job, Seinfeld.

[Gravvi]

and if it is closed and by you wanting it closed i say you are conceding to defeat and forfeiting the right to further continue int his debate debates last as long as they must not until soeone says lets just close it cuz noone wants to see what im saying


First off thanks for posting a very mature post. Second where i worked we didn't need permission to vpn someones computer. At least i never had to ask to use it.... (hmmm glad i quit). Third thing. As me wanting it closed. Its because he started to attack me (personally)(i think i attacked back). But as you can see there are only 2 different opinions in this whole thread. And its I don't mind CS users, its their money. And I don't like how CS unbalances the game. One which has been proven. Two people don't see that. That is how the arguement got started. (he said he doesnt' see it)

How was my statement contradictory. I will explain it more thorough.

Yes I do like CS users because they are supporting fiesta and allowing it to keep running, But i don't like how some of the items cause an imbalance. (charms, extenders, packs)

[lostangelrequiem]

I seriously cannot believe this thread is still going >>
Gravvi, you don't like SC. You THINK it's unbalanced. That is your opinion and you are most certainly entitled to that opinion.
But it's just an opinion.
Opinions are subjective, which means they cannot be ''right" or "wrong", which you seem to think they can be. More specifically, you seem to think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is a big no-no, sweetie, and it's a little thing that you should really attempt to avoid since all it does is get people annoyed at you.
This entire thread being a case in point.

No amount of argument/debate/whining will get rid of the SC system. Personally I think it is fair and doesn't unbalance things at all - after all, think about it this way: those who use SC items that you think are 'unfair' are generally more into the game than those who don't use SC. That means that regardless of SC items, they're more likely to play the game a lot more, thus resulting in them being higher levels, having better equipment etc. etc.
Is this 'unfair'? No.
SC only gives you a slight advantage, if any, over a player who doesn't use SC.

However I can see how you would gather your opinion from seeing people in game - after all, those in the cash shop outfits tend to have enhanced weapons, more HP/SP etc ... So yes, it may appear that they have an advantage. But HP/SP really matter little in terms of gameplay (slight advantage, fufufu) and you can get enhanced weapons with your in-game money too, so yeah.
But seriously.
It's just a game. Lighten up and learn to see things from other people's point of view, otherwise, as you have stated, any debate you are in will instantly turn into a flaming row with no real point.

[HateUchiha]

I seriously cannot believe this thread is still going >>
Gravvi, you don't like SC. You THINK it's unbalanced. That is your opinion and you are most certainly entitled to that opinion.
But it's just an opinion.
Opinions are subjective, which means they cannot be ''right" or "wrong", which you seem to think they can be. More specifically, you seem to think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is a big no-no, sweetie, and it's a little thing that you should really attempt to avoid since all it does is get people annoyed at you.
This entire thread being a case in point.

No amount of argument/debate/whining will get rid of the SC system. Personally I think it is fair and doesn't unbalance things at all - after all, think about it this way: those who use SC items that you think are 'unfair' are generally more into the game than those who don't use SC. That means that regardless of SC items, they're more likely to play the game a lot more, thus resulting in them being higher levels, having better equipment etc. etc.
Is this 'unfair'? No.
SC only gives you a slight advantage, if any, over a player who doesn't use SC.

However I can see how you would gather your opinion from seeing people in game - after all, those in the cash shop outfits tend to have enhanced weapons, more HP/SP etc ... So yes, it may appear that they have an advantage. But HP/SP really matter little in terms of gameplay (slight advantage, fufufu) and you can get enhanced weapons with your in-game money too, so yeah.
But seriously.
It's just a game. Lighten up and learn to see things from other people's point of view, otherwise, as you have stated, any debate you are in will instantly turn into a flaming row with no real point.


OMFG

He did NOT say he DIDNT like the CS, he simply stated some of the CS items imbalance the game which IS true.
Im tried of u guys denying the fact the CS does NOT imbalance the game, stop trying to ignore that fact.

[Gravvi]

I seriously cannot believe this thread is still going >>
Gravvi, you don't like SC. You THINK it's unbalanced. That is your opinion and you are most certainly entitled to that opinion.
But it's just an opinion.
Opinions are subjective, which means they cannot be ''right" or "wrong", which you seem to think they can be. More specifically, you seem to think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is a big no-no, sweetie, and it's a little thing that you should really attempt to avoid since all it does is get people annoyed at you.
This entire thread being a case in point.

No amount of argument/debate/whining will get rid of the SC system. Personally I think it is fair and doesn't unbalance things at all - after all, think about it this way: those who use SC items that you think are 'unfair' are generally more into the game than those who don't use SC. That means that regardless of SC items, they're more likely to play the game a lot more, thus resulting in them being higher levels, having better equipment etc. etc.
Is this 'unfair'? No.
SC only gives you a slight advantage, if any, over a player who doesn't use SC.

However I can see how you would gather your opinion from seeing people in game - after all, those in the cash shop outfits tend to have enhanced weapons, more HP/SP etc ... So yes, it may appear that they have an advantage. But HP/SP really matter little in terms of gameplay (slight advantage, fufufu) and you can get enhanced weapons with your in-game money too, so yeah.
But seriously.
It's just a game. Lighten up and learn to see things from other people's point of view, otherwise, as you have stated, any debate you are in will instantly turn into a flaming row with no real point.



You just contradicted yourself.
SC only gives you a slight advantage, if any, over a player who doesn't use SC.

If something gives something an advantage that is unbalanced. I am not saying they are wrong. Did i ever say there opinions were wrong. NO. i didn't. When something can be proven it becomes a fact. We proved that CS can unbalance the game. So i am not wrong in that sense. Now me saying that you guys don't see is my opinion. Who said i am trying to get rid of CS. I would like for those items i listed early gone yes. Do I care if they every go no.

And just because someone uses CS doesnt' mean they play more. I play over 13 hrs a day 7 days a week. My mom gets CS items probably 3 times more than me but she plays maybe 1-3hrs a day maybe 5 days a week. So once again your judgeing poeple.

And i take you haven't read mine hateuchiha's, slasher_x or rzpects posts. Because we provided evidence on how it unbalances the game.

We have stated that a lvl 50 fighter can get the same hp and same def as a capped fighter. 29 lvl difference. And can do the same job. How is that balanced. Tell me how that is fair.

How can a paper thin mage one who shouldn't ever get hit because it would kill them get the same def as a full end fighter and be 100hp shy of a full end fighter fair.

How can 1 person do something it takes 10-20 people to do fair.

The answer to all my questions are it isn't fair. Because if a lvl 50 fighter can do what a lvl 79 can why continue to lvl that fighter. If a mage can get the same def and 100hp shy of the fighter why have the fighter. that negates a whole class. One person negated the need for 9-19 other people.

Its not fair nor balanced. In those ways. It can be considered balance because it would be a fair fight in pvp. Notice that there is only 1 thing that balances those 3.

And yes you can consider what i say an opinion but like slasher_x said. If you can find what we stated as fair. Then a lvl 79 killing a lvl 1 is fair and your blind or still can't understand what we are saying.

I am not saying i am 100% right on CS haters or not. But its been proven that this game is being balanced through CS and that some CS items unbalance the game.

Now lets see who else find its unbalances the game. http://outspark.com//forums/showthread.php?t=76924. I made a poll for it. Its a different topic than this one actually.

[Lordlymight]

Watch it. Just because the only way you know how to debate is to descend to insults does not mean that other people are very open to these kinds of statements. In real life, you could get beaten up very badly for something like this. Remember, thease are real people.
Bottom line:
If you're trying to be funny with that statement, Al Gore is funnier.
If you're trying to be witty with that statement, you'd have better luck finding a date. (and that's saying something).
And If you're trying to be intelligent with that statement, don't quit your day-job

For the sake of those that have not been following along. I will actually retort this comment.

First and foremost, you make a significant number of assumptions.
You assume that I was insulting my opponent
You assume that I was using a "your mother..." joke.
You assume that I am going to be intimidated by your implied "toughness"
You assume aspects of both my social and marital status.
You assume it to be necessary to take some ownership of my statement.

1 & 2. I was not. My statement was a retort to something he had said to me about my life experience. Yet he has stated in previous posts that he is still a teenager living at home with his mother. My statement implies that he does not have as much experience as he attempts to imply. Reading entire posts would cure these assumptions for you.
3. I am not afraid of you or anyone else. Do not attempt intimidation on the internet. More than once I have wanted to reach down the wire and ****** a knot in someone's rear end, and I have yet to find a way to make it happen. No one is going to "beat me up very badly" even if they were standing right beside me. Even in the days that I was in high school, basic training or college, I have never seen anyone "beaten up very badly" solely over a game of dozens. If there are fights over such things, it is most likely that there are other issues afoot and the "your momma..." bit simply ignited a long simmering fuse.
4. If you intend to attempt to use insults to make a point, I recommend that your point not be 'don't use insults to make a point'.
5. my statement was made to a specific individual in response to an attempt that individual made to degrade another. It was not directed at you or any other. Unless you have something constructive to say, even if it is a simple "hey, that was out of line," I would ask that you refrain from assuming that it is a blanket statement.

[SinisterFiend]

I just wanna throw my 2 cents in. Most of the players that i know that hate cash shop are people that have 5 hours a day + to play this game and either don't have a job to pay for cash shop or are kids who can't use cash shop. I myself use cash shop. I work 50+ hours a week in RL and I get to grind for maybe 4-6 hours a week. If there was no cash shop, it would take me 2 years to go from 1 to 79 with the amount of time I play. I am extremely glad that I have the ability to grant an edge while grinding being that I get about 1/8 the grind time of most other players. So to anyone who is a cash shop hater, if you have the availability to grind more than 10+ hours a week, go out and get a real job and see if you still hate cash shop.

[Gravvi]

For the sake of those that have not been following along. I will actually retort this comment.

First and foremost, you make a significant number of assumptions.
You assume that I was insulting my opponent
You assume that I was using a "your mother..." joke.
You assume that I am going to be intimidated by your implied "toughness"
You assume aspects of both my social and marital status.
You assume it to be necessary to take some ownership of my statement.

1 & 2. I was not. My statement was a retort to something he had said to me about my life experience. Yet he has stated in previous posts that he is still a teenager living at home with his mother. My statement implies that he does not have as much experience as he attempts to imply. Reading entire posts would cure these assumptions for you.
3. I am not afraid of you or anyone else. Do not attempt intimidation on the internet. More than once I have wanted to reach down the wire and ****** a knot in someone's rear end, and I have yet to find a way to make it happen. No one is going to "beat me up very badly" even if they were standing right beside me. Even in the days that I was in high school, basic training or college, I have never seen anyone "beaten up very badly" solely over a game of dozens. If there are fights over such things, it is most likely that there are other issues afoot and the "your momma..." bit simply ignited a long simmering fuse.
4. If you intend to attempt to use insults to make a point, I recommend that your point not be 'don't use insults to make a point'.
5. my statement was made to a specific individual in response to an attempt that individual made to degrade another. It was not directed at you or any other. Unless you have something constructive to say, even if it is a simple "hey, that was out of line," I would ask that you refrain from assuming that it is a blanket statement.

All i can say is you broke ToS you did personally attack me. All your statements on me are false. I might be 19 but have been programming/scripting since age of 10. Other than that I am now blocking your so i dont' have to read your hypocritical posts. I am going to respond PPM and anyone else who would like you post reasonable posts.

[Gravvi]

I just wanna throw my 2 cents in. Most of the players that i know that hate cash shop are people that have 5 hours a day + to play this game and either don't have a job to pay for cash shop or are kids who can't use cash shop. I myself use cash shop. I work 50+ hours a week in RL and I get to grind for maybe 4-6 hours a week. If there was no cash shop, it would take me 2 years to go from 1 to 79 with the amount of time I play. I am extremely glad that I have the ability to grant an edge while grinding being that I get about 1/8 the grind time of most other players. So to anyone who is a cash shop hater, if you have the availability to grind more than 10+ hours a week, go out and get a real job and see if you still hate cash shop.

OMG thats a good reason to like CS. No i dont' have a job anymore. No i can't afford CS. I like to use CS. I just refuse to use certain items. LOL
SRRY for double posting. +rep for a great post

[lostangelrequiem]

Oh jeez. I give up >>
I was attempting to politely state my opinion, and I get yelled at? Wow, way to look mature guys. And FYI, I did read all your 'evidence', and to be honest it really made little sense to me how you came to your conclusion from that 0_o
But maybe I'm just being dense, who knows?

I'm not going to attempt to join this debate anymore, since I can imagine anything I say will just be ridiculed, and I'll just be insulted. It seems that we will never see eye-to-eye on this, and so I'm respectfully bowing out before one or both of us gets in trouble. Lordly, Angel, you two made polite, coherent arguments but I suggest both of you follow me in leaving before this just descends further into a war.

[Gravvi]

Oh jeez. I give up >>
I was attempting to politely state my opinion, and I get yelled at? Wow, way to look mature guys. And FYI, I did read all your 'evidence', and to be honest it really made little sense to me how you came to your conclusion from that 0_o
But maybe I'm just being dense, who knows?

I'm not going to attempt to join this debate anymore, since I can imagine anything I say will just be ridiculed, and I'll just be insulted. It seems that we will never see eye-to-eye on this, and so I'm respectfully bowing out before one or both of us gets in trouble. Lordly, Angel, you two made polite, coherent arguments but I suggest both of you follow me in leaving before this just descends further into a war.


lol srry for me attacking you. But i was frustrated at that moment. And kinda let it all out. :P. But yes i am glad you see some sense in my reasoning. LOL i know i am dense. Why do you like CS items/ users. I want to hear your take because i am sure you can come up with a better reason than it makes teh game free.

[adryden1313]

my 2cents....OMG i havent laughed this hard in a LONG time...thanks a bunch =0)

[RyaikenDune]

For the sake of those that have not been following along. I will actually retort this comment.

First and foremost, you make a significant number of assumptions.
You assume that I was insulting my opponent
You assume that I was using a "your mother..." joke.
You assume that I am going to be intimidated by your implied "toughness"
You assume aspects of both my social and marital status.
You assume it to be necessary to take some ownership of my statement.

1 & 2. I was not. My statement was a retort to something he had said to me about my life experience. Yet he has stated in previous posts that he is still a teenager living at home with his mother. My statement implies that he does not have as much experience as he attempts to imply. Reading entire posts would cure these assumptions for you.
3. I am not afraid of you or anyone else. Do not attempt intimidation on the internet. More than once I have wanted to reach down the wire and ****** a knot in someone's rear end, and I have yet to find a way to make it happen. No one is going to "beat me up very badly" even if they were standing right beside me. Even in the days that I was in high school, basic training or college, I have never seen anyone "beaten up very badly" solely over a game of dozens. If there are fights over such things, it is most likely that there are other issues afoot and the "your momma..." bit simply ignited a long simmering fuse.
4. If you intend to attempt to use insults to make a point, I recommend that your point not be 'don't use insults to make a point'.
5. my statement was made to a specific individual in response to an attempt that individual made to degrade another. It was not directed at you or any other. Unless you have something constructive to say, even if it is a simple "hey, that was out of line," I would ask that you refrain from assuming that it is a blanket statement.

1. Solely over a games of dozens? You dropped a line in about someone's mother. Remember, what I said. These are real people. Not some lemmings that you can Lord it Over.
2.Intimidating you? Good Lord! Furthest from it. I was warning you that that sort of behaviour is not well tolerated on the forums by all posters alike. If you wish to fuel your arguements with lines like that, then I'm sorry, you willl very soon have no audience.
3. It was a blanket statement dear. It was one line. This was the format.

*quote from gravvi*

Yes I'm sure........

*next quote*

4. As far as I am concerned you were simply unable to hold your arguements up and resorted to this blightery. If that is not the case, then you were simply trying to be what you thought was funny or witty at someone else's expense, and I can telly you truly that is not the case.

5. Tip: Forum-goers don't take these things lightly. Please do not do it again.

6. I am doing a Gravvi. I am never going to lay eyes on one of your posts again.

[poolplayermaster]

hmmmm perhaps it should be closed then

the maturity level has certainly gone downhill now it is my wish however that it remains open and people renew there maturity look up what the word debate means tand then continue


note: this is directed only at some people and not all and for fear of blacklisting i have chosen not t name them

[KateeHellen]

1. Solely over a games of dozens? You dropped a line in about someone's mother. Remember, what I said. These are real people. Not some lemmings that you can Lord it Over.
2.Intimidating you? Good Lord! Furthest from it. I was warning you that that sort of behaviour is not well tolerated on the forums by all posters alike. If you wish to fuel your arguements with lines like that, then I'm sorry, you willl very soon have no audience.
3. It was a blanket statement dear. It was one line. This was the format.

*quote from gravvi*

Yes I'm sure........

*next quote*

4. As far as I am concerned you were simply unable to hold your arguements up and resorted to this blightery. If that is not the case, then you were simply trying to be what you thought was funny or witty at someone else's expense, and I can telly you truly that is not the case.

5. Tip: Forum-goers don't take these things lightly. Please do not do it again.

6. I am doing a Gravvi. I am never going to lay eyes on one of your posts again.

May i ask who gives you permission to jugde content of others post?
So far i dont see any CL mark whit your name so please refrain to be someone who you are not.
I am more that sure that this thread was monitored by CLs<if not higher OS autorites> because of topic and if they let this thread to continue so long then they dont find any reason to intervention.
But now i agree whit thread starter that this thread should be closed <but this is only my sugestion> because one of the sides of this argument is too well "fortify" on thier position and reaching any reasonable agreement is simply impossible.
After i read entire thread and i must point one thing what i think havent been taken under consideration.
And i am talking about statistic build of character.
For example yesturday i play on my newbie archer and only thing from cash shop witch she wear is summer outfit and i use beauty coupon to change her face :), and i was able to lvl in one hour from lvl 8 to 12 just doing quests.
I use hybrid build 2 STR, 1 END and 1 SPR and some gears whit considearble good at this level statistic and i was able to kill slender phinos at lvl 11 whit only two skill hits.
I think CS items are far to much mitilogized<i tested myself couple pointed here items and must say i was very disapointed about outcome of some of them>.
Maybe Outspark should publish for example global summary for last month of CS items sale <without revealing any vital informations> and we will see how big in reality is CS percentage income.

[RyaikenDune]

May i ask who gives you permission to jugde content of others post?
So far i dont see any CL mark whit your name so please refrain to be someone who you are not.
I am more that sure that this thread was monitored by CLs<if not higher OS autorites> because of topic and if they let this thread to continue so long then they dont find any reason to intervention.
But now i agree whit thread starter that this thread should be closed <but this is only my sugestion> because one of the sides of this argument is too well "fortify" on thier position and reaching any reasonable agreement is simply impossible.
After i read entire thread and i must point one thing what i think havent been taken under consideration.
And i am talking about statistic build of character.
For example yesturday i play on my newbie archer and only thing from cash shop witch she wear is summer outfit and i use beauty coupon to change her face :), and i was able to lvl in one hour from lvl 8 to 12 just doing quests.
I use hybrid build 2 STR, 1 END and 1 SPR and some gears whit considearble good at this level statistic and i was able to kill slender phinos at lvl 11 whit only two skill hits.
I think CS items are far to much mitilogized<i tested myself couple pointed here items and must say i was very disapointed about outcome of some of them>.
Maybe Outspark should publish for example global summary for last month of CS items sale <without revealing any vital informations> and we will see how big in reality is CS percentage income.

Excuse me dear, but It's not about whether I'm a CL or not. I am addressing a matter which violated basic scruples.
I, in no way, was acting like a CL...just informing a poster that a certain part of his/her post was degradatory and was a personal insult.
It may not be my JOB to ensure that such a thing does not happen, however, I do feel it is morally wrong and as a person (these people here..personal insults like the one I am specifying are a nono), I feel obligated to point out that that sort of behaviour should not occur in the future. Yes, I cannot enfore that statement. But still.....can we not, under the mask of anonymity stick to basic moral standards?

And as for the rest, I'm sorry to say that reading your post, IMO, you haven't taken what I have said in context. Read the quote above my post for clarification.

Back on topic...

What about stat and skill reset scrolls? Does this not balance out the 'permenant' effect of free-stats and skill points which, frankly, is slightly unfair.
For examply, I have gleaned from my experience on the archer forums, that after level 75, Multi Shot is replaced by a much better skill. People who have fully empowered Multishot, therefore, are at a slight disadvantage. Therefore, a skill-resest scroll comes into the picture and rights it all again.
Also, a stat reset scoll which can recorrect a build. Say a fighter clicks the wrong arrow and puts, over the course of his build, 3 points in INT. W/o a stat reset scroll, that would become a permenant part of his build. However, with a stat reset scroll he can right the would-be imbalance of psuedo-permenant empowerments and stats.

A bit difficult to understand but think about it.

[prince_scipio]

i like it, i just don't like that some of the items are temporary, like the houses. I don't want to buy a new house and have to keep buying it over and over, same with clothes

[Kaiza]

I am a loyal buyer of Sparcash, but i hate the imbalance of few items.

[notfun]

gravvi you got your characters back!!

[notfun]

and for the topic, im not a cash shop hater, love it or leave it

[Kaiza]

gravvi you got your characters back!!

This is offtopic. xD

[thechaz]

i just find it a bit lazy

[Lakkit]

I personally like to use the cash shop... And also. I don't understand why people should hate it.. Everyone has a right to use it. It is their Choice... I think one thing that frustrates me the most is when they call you a "cheater" for using Charms or an Extender.... Yet... They stand there with an outfit on, (or have a mover) and a Cash Shop pet?? That I struggle with..... Also.. Cash Shop is up to you to use. You can easily play the game without purchasing a single item your entire fiesta life. (I know a few that have)

[ramon246]

I am a loyal buyer of Sparcash, but i hate the imbalance of few items.
lol, if elf can see it, why is everyone else being such a ray charles about it?
people need to get off their high and mighty horse and learn to understand whats happening around here. none of us have said the cashshop is bad, or that it needs to be shutdown, all we're saying is that certain items, ie. extenders, charms and +9s unbalance the gameplay.

I personally like to use the cash shop... And also. I don't understand why people should hate it.. Everyone has a right to use it. It is their Choice... I think one thing that frustrates me the most is when they call you a "cheater" for using Charms or an Extender.... Yet... They stand there with an outfit on, (or have a mover) and a Cash Shop pet?? That I struggle with..... Also.. Cash Shop is up to you to use. You can easily play the game without purchasing a single item your entire fiesta life. (I know a few that have)


no one hates it, they hate certain items, and i can assure you, an outfit, mover or pet barely move the imbalance scale compared to the effect charms and extender pose. for example, elf got 2.6kdef, and 18xx dmg due to the CS.

thats 3x more def and 2x more dmg than an average non-CS or non-+9'd capped fighter (any build) can have. And ppl dare say no imbalance exists? bish plz >.<

[Lakkit]

lol, if elf can see it, why is everyone else being such a ray charles about it?
people need to get off their high and mighty horse and learn to understand whats happening around here. none of us have said the cashshop is bad, or that it needs to be shutdown, all we're saying is that certain items, ie. extenders, charms and +9s unbalance the gameplay.




no one hates it, they hate certain items, and i can assure you, an outfit, mover or pet barely move the imbalance scale compared to the effect charms and extender pose. for example, elf got 2.6kdef, and 18xx dmg due to the CS.

thats 3x more def and 2x more dmg than an average non-CS or non-+9'd capped fighter (any build) can have. And ppl dare say no imbalance exists? bish plz >.<


If that "bish please" was towards me Ramon. You may want to think again You really wanna talk to me like that?

[Lakkit]

lol, if elf can see it, why is everyone else being such a ray charles about it?
people need to get off their high and mighty horse and learn to understand whats happening around here. none of us have said the cashshop is bad, or that it needs to be shutdown, all we're saying is that certain items, ie. extenders, charms and +9s unbalance the gameplay.




no one hates it, they hate certain items, and i can assure you, an outfit, mover or pet barely move the imbalance scale compared to the effect charms and extender pose. for example, elf got 2.6kdef, and 18xx dmg due to the CS.

thats 3x more def and 2x more dmg than an average non-CS or non-+9'd capped fighter (any build) can have. And ppl dare say no imbalance exists? bish plz >.<



also "bish" I wasn't speaking of imbalance. I was clearly stating that the cash shop can be used by anyone and I myself have seen a Few complainers. Now Ramon. If you are really going to get up like to to me. Ill come to Barbados and slap you a good one!

[leobaloy]

cash shop.....
well i don't hate people who buy items, afterall they are supporting the developers/etc.

but somethings shouldn't be in the cash shop, like beauty coupons
cuz i mean changing your character's hair style/color and face should be free
customization of characters is something this game lacks in

[ramon246]

If you are really going to get up like to to me. Ill come to Barbados and slap you a good one!

lol....



marry me plox ._.

[Lakkit]

lol....



marry me plox ._.

whoa um take this to pms sweety o.o

[ramon246]

whoa um take this to pms sweety o.o

lol wait... how'd u know where i'm from o.0, i dont see that on my profile...

[Gravvi]

ummmmmmm. This is wierd

[Lakkit]

ummmmmmm. This is wierd

your weird -.-

[Gravvi]

... yes i am...how did you know that. And how did you know where someone who never said where is from located.

[poolplayermaster]

ok get back on topic please i'd rather this not get closed off or have anyone in trouble for getting away from the topic and im glad to see its not such a heated discussion anymore

[Lakkit]

... yes i am...how did you know that. And how did you know where someone who never said where is from located.

lets see, maybe cause this is my alt account? ever think of that?

[nicksouyiannis]

I just don't think it's fair the fact that only people who are willing to pay real money can have some items in the game.why separate people to those who have money and are willing to pay and t thse that are not?it's a clear discrimination!!!!!!!!!!!

[Baktwerel]

Um... hi there new player (or at least new to the forums) :3 You probbaly didn't know but necroing (replying at a thread which wasn't active for more than a week or so) isn't really welcome here. I'm sure you didn't mean to do something bad, but next time check the date of the last post before you post something, okay? ;3

[drigr_x]

Um... hi there new player (or at least new to the forums) :3 You probbaly didn't know but necroing (replying at a thread which wasn't active for more than a week or so) isn't really welcome here. I'm sure you didn't mean to do something bad, but next time check the date of the last post before you post something, okay? ;3
Its 3 week - 1 month. Honestly, I don't know HOW people dig these things up again... Especially fi they're new here.

[Baktwerel]

Its 3 week - 1 month. Honestly, I don't know HOW people dig these things up again... Especially fi they're new here.

Oh my bad on the time... anyhow since the last post was from 2008 it's necro anyway...

And HOW? Easy! Search tool, browsing and 'ooh here's a topic I want to reply on *replies without checking the date*' ...

I was browsing the forums a lot too when I was new... can't remember wether I also necroed or not accidently ._. ... anyhow things like that happen :3

Now it's only a matter of some time till the thread gets closed -unless the OP wants it otherwise, if he/she is still around

[drigr_x]

Well... When ou search you only see 100 threads... In order from newest to the hundreth oldest... How do you find a 1.5 year old thread?

[Baktwerel]

Well... When ou search you only see 100 threads... In order from newest to the hundreth oldest... How do you find a 1.5 year old thread?

with loooong long searches XP ... or with damn good keywords at the search box ... but I guess we should stop discussing about it as with each comment un-intentionally - we are also necroing in a way.

lol if you think it's a fun thread idea, why not making one about how people find old threads -or anything specifically-


Anyhow sorry for the bother in advance to whoever will close the thread, even if it wasn't us who started it XP

[drigr_x]

YOU make it... People are starting to not like my constant making of threads...

[zephyr_wind]

I understand the cash shop's purpose. I just don't think costumes should add anything. I've played a ton of MMO's where they had a CS shop and most times they're just for aesthetics n.n. Like that new demon guise costume or whatever is just ridiculously OP for one costume e.e

[Baktwerel]

hey hey slow down people XP this is a necroed thread which was accidently taken back to life by a new forum-user who didn't check the last post's date. If you want to discuss about this topic, I suggest to open a new one for for it -or search for the OP-

So let's try to not post anymore, okay? Else more people will be confused XP

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s63/Kuvee/necrooo.png

Also the card was not meant to be offensive towards anyone, I've put it there to pull attention to the necroing easier.

[Shadowic2]

*Beats the zombie thread with her Necro-Shovel*

T_T I just polished that...

Anyways, please do not Necro-Post.

Thank you.

-Closed-